Swordmasters.

[Fayt Zelpher]

RP here thinks that Ilyana shouldn't get Mordecai, saying that he wants Ulki more. Never mind the fact that Mist aside, all Mordecai's other options besides Ilyana either give inferior bonuses (Stefan), come late (Ulki), or both (Ranulf).

What? No, I said that Ilyana doesn't want Mordy, leaving him with one of the other options. She wants Mia and Zihark first. Zihark has fewer viable supports and a support which she favors, and Mia gives her that bit of hit which helps her with the lower accuracy spells. Plus, the movement gap means that she doesn't want to support Mordy anyway.

[Inui]

I have a flight to catch soon and I am drunk, otherwise I'd counter that post point for point. Meh.

I still don't understand how 8 units > 11 units with slightly lower levels. Enemy density is kinda high, so those 8 units can't do everything. The argument that Zihark not eating up a healer's turn as often to allow for more killing, and thus more efficiency, still stands. You did nothing to debunk it. Such an argument is something I've heard out of excellent debaters like CATS, Solid, and Reikken. I see no reason to trust you above them or myself.

[Narga_Rocks]

I have a flight to catch soon and I am drunk, otherwise I'd counter that post point for point. Meh.

I still don't understand how 8 units > 11 units with slightly lower levels. Enemy density is kinda high, so those 8 units can't do everything.

slightly? I'm not sure I buy that 3 extra units will only drop the levels of the team by 1 or 2. Nor do I buy that you somehow need 11 units. I think we can all agree that it's not a linear function in terms of units and efficiency. Just 1 unit is clearly less efficient than 2, and 13 units is clearly more efficient than 20 (considering they would basically be deployed every other chapter). If you plot efficiency (y) vs. teamsize (x), you are bound to get something roughly parabolic (with -ax²). So obviously the most optimal team size would have to be between 2 and 13. Probably between 6 and 13. You've given no reason for me to think that 11 units is better off than 8, either.

The argument that Zihark not eating up a healer's turn as often to allow for more killing, and thus more efficiency, still stands. You did nothing to debunk it. Such an argument is something I've heard out of excellent debaters like CATS, Solid, and Reikken. I see no reason to trust you above them or myself.

That is an advantage for him. I don't think I ever denied that. I'm just suggesting that it isn't a "massacre". That was your word. Since you didn't give chapter and level data I can't really comment on whether Mia is being 2HKOd by a large amount of enemies or not, and it seems we are not going to accept each other's levels for the characters either. The point is, though, that while she certainly needs more healing than he does she doesn't need so much that she can be horrendous. Especially since she gets multiple early game leads on him right up until he has B Brom, possibly even after that. And all that durability stuff is assuming you aren't just playing the Vantage + Wrath card such that she doesn't need healing either.

Again, it's an advantage for him. She's got her own advantages (mostly the extra 4 chapters of goodness at the start and a significant level lead when he first appears causing her to be better for a few chapters afterwards). But, the reason that it is an advantage for him is merely because it allows your healer to heal somebody else each turn. Unless somehow Rhys really can't get his spot, I see no reason to care that Rhys doesn't get to attack in a given turn. It's only if Soren is on split-duties for some odd reason that there would be a problem.

While Interceptor is firmly in the Mia > Zihark camp, I don't actually care enough in this game. However, she is certainly far closer to him than some people give her credit for.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

Those samples are quite random, as Reikken's site doesn't have many details for lategame. I had them at 20/10 with full supports and used the enemy types and levels I stated. I assume they are the enemies you confront in Chapter 20-23 and I believe the levels I had them at make sense unless you like favoritism. Mine are based on a team of 11+. Your 8 unit team might see them at 13-15, but that only bloats Zihark's advantages and at best allows Mia to eat one more hit and get a few more points of Evd.

[Narga_Rocks]

Those samples are quite random, as Reikken's site doesn't have many details for lategame. I had them at 20/10 with full supports and used the enemy types and levels I stated. I assume they are the enemies you confront in Chapter 20-23 and I believe the levels I had them at make sense unless you like favoritism. Mine are based on a team of 11+. Your 8 unit team might see them at 13-15, but that only bloats Zihark's advantages and at best allows Mia to eat one more hit and get a few more points of Evd.

There's something on this site you could use. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15227

So, 20/12 Mia has 37.5 hp and 14 def. I think we can safely assume 38 hp thanks to limited band usage. Also 29 spd and 17 luck. At least, when you consider how she has a 49% chance of having at least 29 speed even without any bands. http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=mia&game=9e&stat=4

That's 38 hp and 15 def with Ilyana, and 75 avo. Now, the strongest lance user in chapter 23 has 32 mt. One guy. And he 3HKOs her. 32 - 15 + 1 = 18. 18 x 2 = 36. This guy appears on turn 5 and seeing how it's only one dude, I see no reason to assume she faces it. Next best lance users have 27 mt. 13 damage assuming Ilyana. Barely a 3HKO with or without Ilyana. 102 hit translates to 37 hit thanks to WTA. Which translates to 27.75% true hit. http://www.serenesforest.net/general/truehit.html.

Chance of death in three hits? About 2%. That's, of course, ignoring how she has 18 str and silver swords are purchaseable in chapter 23. 31 mt with just a simple silver sword. With supports that's a 3HKO and she has Vantage + innate crit and 23 skill. So 26 crit against 4 cev. 22% crit on each of her shots to reduce their 27.75% to 21.645%.

She's now looking at like 1% death chance in 3 hits. Yeah. Then you can forge a steel sword and maybe give it some crit. Or just strap on Vague Katti with or without wrath.

Everything else 4HKOs or worse.

I'm not sure about 20/12 in chapter 23 though. Could be lower.

Anyway, chapter 24 only has 2 lance users that have 30+ mt, the others have 27 or less. Mostly less, aside from wyverns. Chapter 25 has one tiger with 34 mt and everything else is either an axe or has under 29 mt. Only one thing has 28 mt, btw.

Chapter 26 has one non-boss non-axe with more than 31 mt.

Chapter 27 has a bunch of tigers. Some of them have 34 or 33 mt (only 4). The 33 mt ones 3HKO her until 37hp + 14 def, assuming Ilyana (15 def). 20/11 or so. The 34 mt ones she either needs to hit 39 hp or 15 def (effectively 16). Level 20/15 has that on average, though with bands it's possible to get there earlier, and considering 20/13 has a 42% chance of at least 39 hp and a 42% chance of at least 15 def, it seems like some small band usage should be able to just about guarantee one of those. I should note that 20/14 is basically guaranteed to pull off 39 hp on fixed mode due to starting growth points.

Aside from those few tigers, there are also only 3 lance users with above 30 mt. The 34 mt one has 35 on her, so probably will 2HKO her. She'd have to hit both 39 hp and 15 def to survive them, which won't happen until 20/15 or so with bands, 20/16 with only once or twice. So the one guy with 34 mt is a problem. The two with 33 mt are in the same situation as the two tigers. Well, aside from how tigers have ~130 hit and the lance wielding generals have just 108. So 118 against probably 78 avo by now, so only 40 listed. 32.4% true. (stronger tigers have 134 hit, so they get 56 listed, which is certainly annoying since true hit goes up.)

Now, obviously she faces higher death chances than Zihark if you send her up against these things. Of course, given the quantity of enemies on the map you don't have to send her against these, but Zihark then has the advantage of more flexibility. I'd also like to point out that neither is killing any of these things without procing something, and that if your other units don't kill these guys and Mia and Zihark both 1HKO whatever is left, their durability is basically even since they'll both kill the thing without getting hit. Mia because of vantage and Zihark because of avo.

Of course, 20/15 Zihark has around 75 avo, more likely 76 (especially with band help). +25 unless you want him to wait for Muarim. 101 avo against those 130 or so tigers. They still get 29 listed (17.11% true) and assuming Zihark now has +2 def he'll have 42hp and 18 def. 34 mt does 16 damage to him and still 3 hits him anyway. 33 mt does 15 and again 3 hits. His death chance is, of course, vanishingly low at around .5%, but that's about half of Mia's earlier death chance from most of those silver lance users. The silver lance users that are in no way numerous enough to assume they actually get the opportunity to have 3 of them attack her before she can be healed. And I could probably still argue for a small level lead, maybe 2 or so, no longer the 3 or 4 it once was.

Chapter 28 brings dragons that two hit both of them and are probably better killed with thunder wielding mages. Especially with their durability. Dragons were so much better in PoR than in RD. They are like the only class that can say that, too. Non-boss non-dragon units, however, suck here too. Best is two 31 mt tigers. Rest are 30 or below. Best lance is two guys with 30. Next best lance is 24.

Chapter 29 (endgame) finally has more things that can 2HKO her, but by this point it hardly matters. Plus it's just the Generals up the middle. Well, there is a killer lance that likely 3HKOs her, so that's a problem. It's technically a problem for Zihark, too, just a smaller one. Still, other units don't have a fear of death on that guy, so it's kinda a wash between Mia and Zihark. And of course there be dragons. Tigers should 3HKO now.

I mostly ignored the possibility of Vantage + Wrath throughout that, too.

Zihark clearly wins durability when he has his +25 avo, obviously, but that doesn't mean that he wins by enough to outweigh her earlygame that he becomes so much better that he's decent and Mia is horrendous. When a lot of stuff 4HKO you (or worse), and only a small number of units each map can even 3HKO you, it's not like she's taking up a healer more than 3 or 4 times a map, if that. And with Rhys blasting away with physics forever, it basically means that Mia takes Rhys away from healing some other dude. Advantage Zihark. And Zihark can occasionally jump into a group of 5 or more enemies with reasonable assurance of survival (the opportunity doesn't exactly come up every turn). Advantage Zihark. Curbstomp, however, this is not.

[Inui]

Nifty enemy stat resource. Already knew about the others, of course.

I will have to concede that Mia isn't low tier. Mid tier is fine. I don't play this game much and haven't for quite some time, so I'm not too surprised that I'm wrong. I don't think Zihark is too special, either. I don't use Swordmasters except for Stefan.

[Narga_Rocks]

Nifty enemy stat resource. Already knew about the others, of course.

Just wanted to make sure it didn't look like I was pulling averages and probabilities and true hit rates out of nowhere.

I will have to concede that Mia isn't low tier. Mid tier is fine. I don't play this game much and haven't for quite some time, so I'm not too surprised that I'm wrong. I don't think Zihark is too special, either. I don't use Swordmasters except for Stefan.

I agree they aren't exactly top tier amazing in this game. There are certainly no Shanans. Not even any Lakches or Rutgers or FE10 Mias or FE10 Ziharks. I've never played fe6 beyond a few chapters, so I can't comment on how Mia/Zihark/Stefan in fe9 compare to Fir, but swordmaster crit and GBA fire affinity and buyable killing edges seems cool.

p.s. I still wonder what I.S. was thinking when they took the SM with better hp, str, def in PoR and made him have worse hp, str, def in RD both in comparison to Mia. I guess she kept training over the three years and he was chasing tail (literally)? Oh, and he had inferior res in PoR and superior res in RD. Weird people at I.S.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

FE 9...has the worst Swordmasters of any title. FE 3 had Oguma/Navarre function as the "Swordmasters" sort of, and both were top tier or nearly top tier. The FE 4 ones are all great despite not having horses. Ayra's a little eh (still better than Mia/Zihark in 9) and overrated, but her kids and Shanan are rape. FE 5 gives you Galzus (lolrape), Shiva, and Mareeta. FE 6 gives you two that are amazing, especially Rutger. Guy >>> Mia/Zihark in 9. Uh, yeah.

Swordmaster is quite an overrated class.

Paladin, Wyvern, Hero, Sage. They rape every other class imo, especially Paladin.

Anyways, Mia isn't shit. I'm glad to have learned something new. Well, she's not "shit" by your standards, I suppose. She's certainly not better than Zihark, and I don't consider Zihark good, so... I have high standards. If you don't have 1~2 range and/or a horse, you're kinda eh no matter what unless you have something insane to make up for it, like FE 6 Rutger's supports and Crit.

[Narga_Rocks]

FE 9...has the worst Swordmasters of any title. FE 3 had Oguma/Navarre function as the "Swordmasters" sort of, and both were top tier or nearly top tier. The FE 4 ones are all great despite not having horses. Ayra's a little eh (still better than Mia/Zihark in 9) and overrated, but her kids and Shanan are rape. FE 5 gives you Galzus (lolrape), Shiva, and Mareeta. FE 6 gives you two that are amazing, especially Rutger. Guy >>> Mia/Zihark in 9. Uh, yeah.

Swordmaster is quite an overrated class.

Paladin, Wyvern, Hero, Sage. They rape every other class imo, especially Paladin.

Anyways, Mia isn't shit. I'm glad to have learned something new. Well, she's not "shit" by your standards, I suppose. She's certainly not better than Zihark, and I don't consider Zihark good, so... I have high standards. If you don't have 1~2 range and/or a horse, you're kinda eh no matter what unless you have something insane to make up for it, like FE 6 Rutger's supports and Crit.

Well, I kinda like Lakche in fe4. I suppose she has no "right" to the hero sword, but it's pretty cool to make Lex her father and have her ORKO everything while having so much def and avo that the enemies have a stupidly low chance of actually killing her in anything resembling a reasonable number of attacks. Too bad about the no horsey, I suppose. Also I guess that the leg ring practically has Celice's name on it until he promotes.

(I guess the def and avo and ORKOing probably count as "something insane to make up for it", though)

Edited February 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

Lakche should probably get to keep the Hero Sword since she can stack Continue/Meteor on it for insane offense while others can't. I give her a Power Ring and Leg Ring and watch her tear everything up and keep up with the mounted dudes. Add the Knight Ring if you want her to be...pretty much the best unit. She can easily be broke'd. Lakche has insane stuff beyond that, anyways. Her offense is always going to be top tier if she keeps the Hero Sword.

[Narga_Rocks]

Lakche should probably get to keep the Hero Sword since she can stack Continue/Meteor on it for insane offense while others can't. I give her a Power Ring and Leg Ring and watch her tear everything up and keep up with the mounted dudes. Add the Knight Ring if you want her to be...pretty much the best unit. She can easily be broke'd. Lakche has insane stuff beyond that, anyways. Her offense is always going to be top tier if she keeps the Hero Sword.

I give her the thunder sword and occasionally get annoyed when she meteors too much. "I wanted you to weaken those three things for someone else to kill, not kill them yourself. You're already 8 levels above your teammates, Lakche." The probability shouldn't have been all that high. Mid twenties skill, not yet promoted, two shots at meteor each time. She really should have left at least one alive, or more frequently 2 alive.

[Shadow Mir]

FE 9...has the worst Swordmasters of any title. FE 3 had Oguma/Navarre function as the "Swordmasters" sort of, and both were top tier or nearly top tier. The FE 4 ones are all great despite not having horses. Ayra's a little eh (still better than Mia/Zihark in 9) and overrated, but her kids and Shanan are rape. FE 5 gives you Galzus (lolrape), Shiva, and Mareeta. FE 6 gives you two that are amazing, especially Rutger. Guy >>> Mia/Zihark in 9. Uh, yeah.

Swordmaster is quite an overrated class.

Paladin, Wyvern, Hero, Sage. They rape every other class imo, especially Paladin.

Anyways, Mia isn't shit. I'm glad to have learned something new. Well, she's not "shit" by your standards, I suppose. She's certainly not better than Zihark, and I don't consider Zihark good, so... I have high standards. If you don't have 1~2 range and/or a horse, you're kinda eh no matter what unless you have something insane to make up for it, like FE 6 Rutger's supports and Crit.

Not addressing any of the FE4 related stuff, but I do agree, Swordmasters are among the most overrated classes as far as FE games go. I'd personally say that Assassins and Wyverns are also overrated, for the most part.

[Fayt Zelpher]

p.s. I still wonder what I.S. was thinking when they took the SM with better hp, str, def in PoR and made him have worse hp, str, def in RD both in comparison to Mia. I guess she kept training over the three years and he was chasing tail (literally)? Oh, and he had inferior res in PoR and superior res in RD. Weird people at I.S.

Um, I think you give IS too much credit if you assume they were thinking at all, let alone thinking about FE while programming growths and bases.

[dondon151]

Not addressing any of the FE4 related stuff, but I do agree, Swordmasters are among the most overrated classes as far as FE games go. I'd personally say that Assassins and Wyverns are also overrated, for the most part.

WKs are not overrated. They fly and have good durability plus good move. That is quite literally the best combination of traits a unit could have in the game.

[Rodykitty]

Swordmasters stopped being overrated by people whose opinions matter. They're fine in FE9 at any rate.

[Shadow Mir]

WKs are not overrated. They fly and have good durability plus good move. That is quite literally the best combination of traits a unit could have in the game.

Honestly, I never had much respect for most wyvern riders. The number of wyverns I DO respect... can be counted on one hand.

[Rodykitty]

Personal respect doesn't prove whether something is bad or not.

[Paperblade]

Lakche should probably get to keep the Hero Sword since she can stack Continue/Meteor on it for insane offense while others can't. I give her a Power Ring and Leg Ring and watch her tear everything up and keep up with the mounted dudes. Add the Knight Ring if you want her to be...pretty much the best unit. She can easily be broke'd. Lakche has insane stuff beyond that, anyways. Her offense is always going to be top tier if she keeps the Hero Sword.

A. Hero Sword and Continue don't stack. This also means Skasaha can do the same damn thing as her, and so can Shanan but OH WAIT SHANAN HAS BALMUNG.

B. What sort of unit isn't one rounding 99% of the game with 4 attacks per battle? And you wanna give her a Power Ring on top of that? Everyone's offense is top tier with the Hero Sword, save like Hannibal.

She's good, but she's already an FE4 Swordmaster, so by definition she's already better half the cast. She doesn't need all this overkill crap on top of it. She goes from ORKOing to ORKOing. Yay overkill.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Paperblade

[Anouleth]

Swordmasters are always going to be popular classes. You only need to look at the number of fanboys for Edward.

I wouldn't say that FE9 has the worst Swordmasters by a significant margin. Swordmasters from 7 onwards have never been great - for all that people love Guy, Karel and Karla are very underwhelming, Joshua is decent but Marisa is awful, and three out of the five Swordmasters in 10 are considered below-average.

[Shadow Mir]

Swordmasters stopped being overrated by people whose opinions matter. They're fine in FE9 at any rate.

...What? >_>

Personal respect doesn't prove whether something is bad or not.

I know that. I was just saying that I don't like most wyvern riders.

[Inui]

Honestly, I never had much respect for most wyvern riders. The number of wyverns I DO respect... can be counted on one hand.

Promoted Katua/Paola/Sheeda, Altenna, Eda, Miledy, Cormag, Jill both games, Haar both games...

Vaida and Heath are far from bad, too.

A. Hero Sword and Continue don't stack. This also means Skasaha can do the same damn thing as her, and so can Shanan but OH WAIT SHANAN HAS BALMUNG.

B. What sort of unit isn't one rounding 99% of the game with 4 attacks per battle? And you wanna give her a Power Ring on top of that? Everyone's offense is top tier with the Hero Sword, save like Hannibal.

She's good, but she's already an FE4 Swordmaster, so by definition she's already better half the cast. She doesn't need all this overkill crap on top of it. She goes from ORKOing to ORKOing. Yay overkill.

I assumed it did since she liked to hit many times in a row before getting attacked back...even without Meteor activating.

I've been playing that hard mode patch for a while, so a lot of the time, four hits isn't enough, especially with a sword. The Power Ring makes her able to kill Generals/Wyverns/bosses without ever going off the Hero Sword, leaving every other sword for everyone else.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

Promoted Katua/Paola/Sheeda, Altenna, Eda, Miledy, Cormag, Jill both games, Haar both games...

Vaida and Heath are far from bad, too.

@bolded: What.

Don't you mean Dean?

[Shadow Mir]

Promoted Katua/Paola/Sheeda, Altenna, Eda, Miledy, Cormag, Jill both games, Haar both games...

Vaida and Heath are far from bad, too.

Never played the SNES FEs, so no comment on Katua, Paola, Sheeda, Altenna, and Eda. I did, however, like Miledy, and Cormag to an extent. Never really liked Jill in both games. And I thought Haar was mediocre in PoR?

At the bold: What.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Inui]

Dean is okay, but what's wrong with Eda?

How are Heath and Vaida bad?

Haar is mobile and durable, so I'd put him above mediocre in PoR.

[Deliriyum]

Dean is okay, but what's wrong with Eda?

How are Heath and Vaida bad?

Haar is mobile and durable, so I'd put him above mediocre in PoR.

Heath joins quite a bit underleveled, but I agree with the rest of that post. I mean, Vaida isn't great, but she is a viable option for a filler or utility. I just wish she kept her uber spear. And the mine trick is gay.