Fuck the Tiers

[-Cynthia-]

3. In my experiments on these threads I've found that discussions are rarely calm and friendly. Instead of just responding to the points of a post about this character or that, there is often times an offensive judgement on the person him or herself as well. Egos and hostility abound. Perhaps the repressed anger of some tierists about RL is released in these threads, and insecurities lead to narcissism and trying to put oneself above others.

I don't think this is true. I've disagreed with Mekkah, kirsche , Vykan, Red Fox, etc. on multiple ocassions and I don't dislike these people or think they're stupid. The only person I really have a negative opinion of is smash(and Paperblade, but he's essentially smash anyway), but that's because he inserts flames into his posts, not because he overrates Shinon or whatever.

Edited July 21, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[NoNameAtAll]

This I've seen from you. Lucky the "time warp" deleted it. I'm not buying that your attempts at a tier discussion were "experiments" as you say. You seem more like a butthurt fanboy who just can't get over how others disagreed with your arguments.

I remember one time you told someone to go look at stats before they argue... he did, you pretty much sunk yourself with that comment as it was proven that you didn't.

I like how this is false, addresses nothing in this discussion and it's just Ad hominen

At this point, silence is golden for you. You're kinda flame baiting with stuff like this.

In addition, prior to the time warp, Prince Levin inserted subtle jabs at other members. I recall him calling Ninji "Foolish" and "Naive" for arguing something in FE7.

I ask now: Who's the "hostile" one in the situation?

[_____]

Technically, that wasn't a tier list discussion; rather, we were discussing Lyn in a General Forums thread, but yeah, he wasn't exactly the friendliest guy around. If you want an example of him being unruly towards myself and others, the FE4 Tier List quotes are enough evidence.

[Mekkah]

The only person I really have a negative opinion of is smash(and Paperblade, but he's essentially smash anyway)

I disagree with this, I think Paperblade is often much more reasonable. But that's slightly off topic.

1. For putting tier lists in their own subforum, they could be added to the Debate subforum since tier threads are all about arguing. However it doesn't really matter, as long as character efficiency and tier discussions stay in their respective threads...which they often do not. Notice how in this very thread tier discussion started about Sothe, Dart (page 2). Stop invading threads.

We only "hijack" topics where anyone gives his opinion about a character that contains false information that can be disproved using facts (which is why hijack has quotations - the topic had already shifted to how good that particular unit is). Even if it happened outside of that, that's one or two people giving the rest a bad rep and overdoing the whole debating thing. For 99% of the cases, debates about a unit's usefulness sticks to topics dedicated to such.

The only real invasion I see is this very thread that essentially says "hey don't debate too much or the game won't be fun anymore" and a lot of people agreeing with it, which is as hilarious as it is sad.

[NoNameAtAll]

Mekkah pretty much summed up my thoughts. :\

Edited July 21, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Florete]

1. For putting tier lists in their own subforum, they could be added to the Debate subforum since tier threads are all about arguing. However it doesn't really matter, as long as character efficiency and tier discussions stay in their respective threads...which they often do not. Notice how in this very thread tier discussion started about Sothe, Dart (page 2). Stop invading threads.

Someone said Sothe was bad, and that was the reason he doesn't agree with tiers, because Sothe is high on the list. A response was made to disprove that and give a quick explanation why he's highly rated, and he was also told to go to the tier thread if he wanted to argue it. It's preventing misinformation, as we've explained about 9,001 times already in this topic. Plus, it lasted for about 5 posts in total. Not exactly an "invasion."

And you're just fishing for arguments if you're going to mention Dart. Chainey was explaining that we don't tier based on rankings anymore, and mentioned Dart as an example. That was a single post.

[Defeatist Elitist]

1. For putting tier lists in their own subforum, they could be added to the Debate subforum since tier threads are all about arguing. However it doesn't really matter, as long as character efficiency and tier discussions stay in their respective threads...which they often do not. Notice how in this very thread tier discussion started about Sothe, Dart (page 2). Stop invading threads.

2. It seems my comments here have been taken as a personal attack to some of the tierists, or a revenge of sorts...lol. I'm simply stating my opinion about the matter at hand and have been personally attacked about it. This is the hostility I'm talking about.

3. In my experiments on these threads I've found that discussions are rarely calm and friendly. Instead of just responding to the points of a post about this character or that, there is often times an offensive judgement on the person him or herself as well. Egos and hostility abound. Perhaps the repressed anger of some tierists about RL is released in these threads, and insecurities lead to narcissism and trying to put oneself above others.

1. It's not invading a thread when discussion is already turning towards that. A thread about Nino being the best character ever is about Nino being the best character ever. The discussion should be about whether she is or she is not. It is not invading the thread to say "Nino is not good for X reason". Likewise, if someone makes a comment in a thread about something, and someone replies to them, it's not invading any more than the original comment probably was.

2. Eh. I don't really know you, as I haven't been in the FE boards for a while. But really, it's only some people. Who knows, maybe they do have a reason.

3. In my experiences on those threads I've found the discussions are usually calm and friendly. Again, this is a bad argument, because IF IT WERE TRUE, you would essentially be saying "Some people who debate are assholes therefore tiers make people assholes" which is complete and utter lunacy. People are assholes in FFtF, people are assholes in General. People are assholes in lots of different forms of discussion.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I used to debate in the tier lists. I quit cause the debates kept getting more and more complex and it just started taking to much damn time to write up an argument that couldn't be insta pwned. I still read them cause I like finding out new tricks/enjoy the statistical knowledge when I setup a play through and the whole nine yards. Just I don't respond anymore since I can't debate any of you all.

*edit* I know this post is somewhat useless I just felt it need to be said since no one else said anything similar.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Lancelot

[Vykan12]

Perhaps the repressed anger of some tierists about RL is released in these threads, and insecurities lead to narcissism and trying to put oneself above others.

Sigged.

[Xort]

I forgot how shitty Debaters sometimes are at defending debating... :(

We shouldn't have to defend it. It's what we like to do. I don't like role-playing, but you don't see me going to FEP and making a post complaining about how almost every topic there is for some RP or another. Instead, I avoid those and visit the few topics I actually care about, and that's that.

There's absolutely no reason for this topic to exist. All it's doing is bashing what we like to do.

[Celice]

But now you have a number of other tier-centric threads spurred from this. What's this about ignoring...?

[Narga_Rocks]

But now you have a number of other tier-centric threads spurred from this.

Are you referring to the "tier list faq" made from Vykan that actually partially placated the most reasonable of the people that were bringing up reasons they don't like tier lists?

Or are you referring to the parody in which you called tier lovers "poisoned idiots"? Let's see, counting insults, how many insults do you see by the tier lovers in this thread and the parody? How many veiled insults or outright insults do you see among the tier haters? Neither count is likely to be zero, but in general I see more venom coming from the haters.

I don't see any other tier-centric threads spurred from this topic, so "a number" must then be 2, which doesn't sound so bad when you consider 1 is to help non-tier-lovers understand what these things are before posting in one, and another one is basically this one's mirror, only far more positive because it isn't filled with lies and insults, for one thing. So even if you equate this topic to that one for some reason, 1 topic out of all the topics in the entire forum sounds like a reasonable retaliation given the content of this topic.

What's this about ignoring...?

I'm going to assume for now you were responding to Xort, since his was the most recent post. He said he avoids RP topics and doesn't complain about them. Then he said he visits the few topics he actually cares about. Considering it sounds like he enjoys tier lists, wouldn't it make sense that he'd care about this topic? I mean, the OP was extremely anti tier list and anti tier list people. Even the title itself was harsh. Seems entirely consistent to me. You seem to be suggesting some form of hypocrisy, but I'm not seeing it. Even the parody topic is perfectly consistent, because he cares about tier lists. If someone who doesn't like tier lists feels a topic saying that is a good topic, then why can't someone that loves tiers post a topic saying that?

The idea of ignoring is not that we ignore people who say bad things about us, it is that we avoid topics like rping if we don't like it, or similar things. And we don't create topics bashing what other people like. You might notice that in Xort's topic he doesn't throw out stuff like:

King Nerd

parasitic disease

tier shit

like any disease, it could be quarantined to it's own section and allowed to fester among itself and eat itself to death.

don't love the games so much that you smother them.

So let's see, Xort only ever really said something about fanboys, but that was just talking about people getting annoyed their favourite character isn't the best in the game. But really, if someone tries to say that a character who is obviously not the best is the best, and will never listen to reason for why he/she isn't, and just starts yelling afterwards, what else can you call the person?

Also, he doesn't insult other people's likings, even characters that aren't so good. He never calls rping a disease or anything similar.

He doesn't suggest that somebody else's way of enjoying things is smothering it or in any way tries to tell people not to do things a certain way.

Seems to me he is ignoring the stuff he doesn't care about, and is in fact focusing on what he does care about. Plus he wasn't into the bashing that superbus was doing.

Where is the hypocrisy?

Edited July 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Celice]

I dunno. You kinda blew up at a comment that had no intention in it. Nice to see you're capable of reading into things further than what was put in ^_^

Where is the hypocrisy?

Good question. Next one: do I care.

[Narga_Rocks]

I dunno. You kinda blew up at a comment that had no intention in it. Nice to see you're capable of reading into things further than what was put in ^_^

Good question. Next one: do I care.

Blew up? I'm wordy. :D Like, extremely wordy. Check out the RD tier list. For your post, mostly I saw two sentences and decided to respond to them. I happen to have a lot of thoughts and trouble condensing them. If I responded to stuff you weren't saying or implying, oops.

[Defeatist Elitist]

We shouldn't have to defend it. It's what we like to do. I don't like role-playing, but you don't see me going to FEP and making a post complaining about how almost every topic there is for some RP or another. Instead, I avoid those and visit the few topics I actually care about, and that's that.

There's absolutely no reason for this topic to exist. All it's doing is bashing what we like to do.

Exactly. I know you shouldn't. I very much support people debating FE.

[Jaybee]

Thank god I suck at debating FE10 and FE8. I'm not in a flame war because of my suckiness :)

[Robert]

I couldn't care less of Character A goes above Character B. The tier hardly influence what characters I use. The point of the tiers is for simple entertainment= Arguing is fun.

[Rewjeo]

Not entirely. Sometimes you can learn useful things about characters. Although I must admit, arguing debating is fun.

[Lifeshroom]

I have no problems with tier lists/discussion topics. Personally, I find them helpful for devising strategies and deciding which character will get me through a certain tough spot. I appreciate the effort put in by the debators because it really opens up information that is new to me and offers me a clear look at things.

That being said, I haven't seen problems branching from tier discussion so I really find it hard to believe tier discussion has a negative effect on the game/community.

[Paperblade]

I'm not sure why this thread has 170 posts when the original post was essentially flamebaiting. Really, can you get a title more provocative than "Fuck the Tiers"?

Also, Cynthia, I quit debating RD in tiers... I think it was about 2 months ago?

[Celice]

because it shows what master debaters really care about

[Narga_Rocks]

because it shows what master debaters really care about

You mean defending something we like doing? Oh no, we are so bad!

Edited July 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Celice]

yes

[Xort]

You mean defending something we like doing? Oh no, we are so bad!

I know, right? How can we have been so blind before? Celice is obviously right, and as such, we should spend all of our time coming into topics and delivering thinly veiled, struck-out insults instead of doing something so horrible as defending our hobbies!

[Narga_Rocks]

I know, right? How can we have been so blind before? Celice is obviously right, and as such, we should spend all of our time coming into topics and delivering thinly veiled, struck-out insults instead of doing something so horrible as defending our hobbies!

As a new convert to the ways of Celice, I am glad you now see the light.