Testing support data(?)

[-Cynthia-]

I think it's kind of amusing that Nolan has a favored support with Nephenee, of all people, the only one outside of the DB to afford such an honor.

It's very odd overall, like Edward is faster with Rolf, Leonardo with Soren, and Fiona with Danved. Some of these make sense storywise, others are just random.

[VincentASM]

This is pretty awesome. Are we ever going to find out what these numbers and F's mean?

That will have to be for others to figure out.

I can't play the game right now and I'm only good at basic hacking : P

[Florete]

I guess I could try testing it myself when I find time.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess I could try testing it myself when I find time.

(made changes)

I've done a bit (more) so far.

Testing Meg in 1-4 with Aran, Ilyana and Laura. 3 different types.

Meg x Aran is FF 02

Meg x Laura is 00 01

Meg x Ilyana is 00 02

I'll be doing shoving and rescuing and healing and other things later on.

After about 70 turns of Meg being 4 squares away from all of them, no supports were built, so unless there is a limit to the number of turns that count I don't think there is any per turn bonus for being on the same map. Also I had Nolan and Edward standing 3 apart for about 60 of those turns and they didn't updgrade, so again I don't think there is a bonus for being 3 apart either.

update:

It turns out I was wrong about the 8. I started the map with Laura deployed adjacent to Meg. It turns out that the game appears to count points for the support any time that two units are adjacent at the start of player phase. It's weird, but I've done a fair bit of testing on it and when I had Meg/Laura together at the end of each turn for all turns and killed the last enemy on turn 9 player phase, I get the C support if they start the map adjacent but I don't get it if I don't start them adjacent. Before I thought they counted at the end of enemy phase, so I thought the required number was 8. And I'm still pretty certain that turns where units aren't adjacent don't count for anything. In the testing, when they started 9 player phases adjacent they got C, when they started 8 together they didn't. In both situations I ended the first 8 turns with them together, so the only difference is their deployment. As a note, this means that any units you want to build support, if you can alter their deployment to start the map adjacent, it will make it quicker.

This happened in 8 9 turns whether Laura was the only one adjacent to Meg or whether Ilyana and Aran were also adjacent to Meg. So I'm pretty sure there is no jealousy system for boosting the most preferable support partner. I'll be testing with the others for alone and not alone with more turns to confirm if there is a penalty to the less desirables when a more desirable partner is in range. (By jealousy system, I don't mean I tested one similar to FE 4's, although I should. I mean if each unit is adjacent to Meg, not if Laura is adjacent to Ilyana who is adjacent to Meg. I'll test the fe4 system idea later.)

update: I've tested the others with people adjacent and without, and Ilyana and Aran both get C support in 12 turns whether anyone else is adjacent to Meg or not. I did not have either Aran or Ilyana next to Meg at the beginning of the map.

Another thing is that the last turn on the map doesn't appear to matter (when it ends on player phase, anyway). I had Laura and Meg next to each other and hit end turn 8 times, then on the last turn tried both leaving them next to each other and separating them, and both times the support was built to C. When I end turn only 7 times adjacent they don't reach C whether they are next to each other or not when Micaiah killed the last enemy.

update: Because I am theorizing that the game checks at the beginning of player phase, this seems consistent. I'll check more in 1-5, considering that map can end on an enemy phase to confirm, but I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, 11 turns is insufficient for Aran and Ilyana to support Meg, at least when Laura is also adjacent. I'll do more testing of course. Also, I left them together for maybe 36 turns and Meg built a C with all 3 at the same time. It's a big range but I'll work on it later.

update: As I said above, looks like 12 turns for either. I'm not sure what the FF means, but hopefully when I test them for shoving and rescuing a difference will appear, or when I take two maps to build supports.

I'm going to do a fair bit more testing in 1-4 alone then move on to 1-5 to see what kind of reduction in the number of different actions is required to reach C by having a second chapter together.

Also so far I just hit end turn and didn't make the characters wait (aside from the first turn in which they stood next to each other). I'll see if telling them to wait on the other turns builds it faster and see if telling Laura to wait next to Meg then having Meg move away still builds anything or not.

update: I did multiple things with this. Again the test is consistent with my earlier theory about the game checking at the beginning of player phase. Telling them to wait next to each other rather than simply ending turn did not make it go faster. Having Laura wait next to Meg then have Meg move away did not count at all. I had them start 8 player phases next to each other and then tried doing the wait and move thing 10 more turns and they didn't get C. It takes starting 9 player phases adjacent. If they don't start the player phase adjacent, it doesn't count.

I have a few ideas but if anyone has other suggestions on what to try please do. I don't mind if it's something I already thought of. I have a save at the start of 1-3 (I'll be testing Ilyana and Aran in that chapter later with a couple of partners later) and another at the start of 1-4 and a battle save in 1-4 at turn 11 with all but one enemy dead and can get Meg to stand next to any or all of those three on turn 12.

update:

So, did a little bit of shoving, too.

For the moment, consider shoving to be worth 1 point and starting a player phase adjacent to be worth 2. Consider a 00 01 pairing to need at least 17 points to reach C in one map. Obviously this won't stand considering there are likely points for being deployed in the same map that I have to consider, and to avoid decimals I might have to multiply 1, 2, and 17 b something if rescuing and healing aren't worth whole numbers when shoving and adjacency are worth 1 and 2.

My successes so far:

9 turns adjacent, success

5 shoves and 6 turns adjacent, success

15 shoves and 1 turn adjacent, success

4 shoves and 7 turns adjacent, success (should've tested with 3 shoves, oh well)

My failures:

5 shoves and 5 turns adjacent, failure

13 shoves and 1 turn adjacent, failure

14 shoves and 1 turn adjacent, failure

8 shoves and 4 turns adjacent, failure

As you can see, my failures accrued 15 or 16 points and didn't make it. My successes attained 17 or 18 points and pulled off a C.

Assuming the same point values, so far 00 02 and FF 02 appear to require 23 or 24 (don't know yet) to achieve C in one map.

update 2: so, yeah, definitely not the same point values for 00 02 and FF 02 as for 00 01, check the next post.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

So, some new info. First, though, 00 01. I still say for a 01 in a single chapter we can pretend the required points is 17 and a shove is worth 1 and starting a player phase adjacent is worth 2.

I still haven't yet seen a difference in FF 02 and 00 02. I hope to find one eventually.

Aran x Meg and Ilyana x Meg seem to require the same number of shoves/adjacents.

For the moment, for a 02 I'm going with 35 required points to make a C, with a shove worth 1 and starting a player phase adjacent is worth 3 for these types.

My successes so far for Ilyana x Meg:

12 turns adjacent, success

3 shoves and 11 turns adjacent, success

2 shoves and 11 turns adjacent, success

8 shoves and 9 turns adjacent, success

35 shoves and 0 turns adjacent, success (wow that took forever)

11 shoves and 8 turns adjacent, success

My failures:

7 shoves and 8 turns adjacent, failure

8 shoves and 8 turns adjacent, failure

4 shoves and 10 turns adjacent, failure

16 shoves and 6 turns adjacent, failure

34 shoves and 0 turns adjacent, failure (urg, and it failed, too)

With Aran x Meg I just did two tests, aside from the 12 turns adjacent I tested previously:

My other success:

8 shoves and 9 turns adjacent, success

My failure:

4 shoves and 10 turns adjacent, failure

I don't see any point in doing any more shove/adjacent tests for the FF 02. It's on to rescuing and healing and take/drop (Laura first, then comparing heal to mend to sacrifice (Micaiah), then Ilyana and Aran). I did the less complicated ones first. I think once I've done those things I can move on to canceling supports and see if they start from scratch to get back to C. Then it's on to 1-5 and testing requirements for two chapters. Then it's back to 1-3 for getting Ilyana and Aran C supports to test various things in 1-4 for C to B and if points carry over and if the excuses for support convos build points or are required.

[VincentASM]

Thanks for the work. It's looking good ^^

Its nice that we're finally going to get some concrete numbers for these things soon. It always bothers me when something in FE isn't known quantitatively, what with it being such a number-based game (and almost everything else is known including growth rates, support growth in other games, movement costs, etc.).

I was hoping the FF's would have a more noticable effect - I mean, their placement in the character lists doesn't seem all too random. Oh well, there's still plenty of time.

Edited July 25, 2009 by VincentASM

[Narga_Rocks]

I was hoping the FF's would have a more noticable effect - I mean, their placement in the character lists doesn't seem all too random. Oh well, there's still plenty of time.

Yeah, me too. Got data on rescue now and there is still no difference. So weird.

First up, Laura x Meg, the 00 01 support.

Shove = 1 point, beginning a player phase adjacent = 2 points, and beginning a player phase while holding another unit = 3 points. Still need 17 points for a C support.

I did various testing with this one, but suffice it to say the rescue command and the take/drop commands don't do anything. All that matters is that one character is carrying another at the beginning of player phase. Even if the holding character was given the held character by another unit. The effect of this is that if you want to use rescue to build support points, rescuing and having another character take/drop on the same turn doesn't do anything. The only way to build points with the rescue command is for one character to lose the following enemy phase and player phase (well, vigoring next turn would let the held character do something, but then it's one action instead of two).

Another interesting thing is that if unit A is being held by unit B, unit C can't build support points with unit A by standing adjacent to unit B. For example, when Aran is holding Laura, sticking Meg next to Aran does not allow for support points to be built between Laura and Meg, though Aran and Meg obviously still build points. So for another example when Tauroneo is holding Edward so that Tauroneo doesn't double stuff in 1-6-1, Edward can't build support points with anyone but Tauroneo for the turns in which he is held.

Anyway, for building points, a hold is considered to be any turn in which one unit is carrying another at the beginning of player phase. eg: Meg carrying Ilyana, or Aran carrying Meg.

An adjacency is then considered to be any turn in which the two units are adjacent at the beginning of player phase.

A shove is, well, a shove.

My successes for Laura x Meg:

5 holds, 1 adjacency, success

3 holds, 4 turns adjacent, success

1 hold, 7 turns adjacent, success

4 holds, 2 turns adjacent, 1 shove, success

My failures:

1 adjacent plus 7 turns of having meg rescue Laura, Aran take Laura on the same turn, Leo (same turn) taking Laura from Aran and dropping her next to Meg.

In other words, 8 adjacent total, and Meg was never carrying Laura at the beginning of player phase. Since it failed, that means the rescue command itself is meaningless.

Did a similar thing for testing the take/drop command, again it failed.

4 holds, 2 adjacent, failed

8 adjacent, 10 turns with Meg next to Aran who was holding Laura. Failure means that since it was only one point away from success from the adjacent turns alone, being adjacent to unit B carrying unit A does not build support points with unit A.

4 holds, 2 adjacent, then rescue on player phase and have an enemy suicide into Sothe on enemy phase. It failed, therefore the game looks at rescues at the beginning of player phase, not the end of player phase. Well, it still could look at the end of enemy phase, but I'll rule that out when I get to 1-5, plus it only really matters for defend chapters anyway because otherwise a map won't end at the end of enemy phase. I'm fairly certain that the game looks at the beginning of player phase, though.

Ilyana + Meg. A 00 02 support.

Shove = 1 point, beginning a player phase adjacent = 3 points, and beginning a player phase while holding another unit = 5 points. Still need 35 points for a C support.

My successes:

9 holds, success

7 holds, 2 adjacent, success

7 holds, success

4 holds, 4 adjacent, 3 shoves, success

My failures:

6 holds, 1 adjacent, 1 shove, failure

Didn't bother doing any other tests since in theory this one was one point away. I could try 4,4,2 or 4,3,5 or something if I really wanted to, but I don't.

Aran + Meg. An FF 02 support.

My success:

7 holds, success

My failure:

6 holds, 1 adjacent, 1 shove, failure.

Didn't bother doing any other tests because it seems the same.

Aside from staff usage, this is basically everything that one unit can do to another for support building, as near as I can tell.

My next test is the effect of heal/mend/sacrifice. I hope at least heal and mend will be the same boost, otherwise any staff could be different.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with just a 00 01 for testing heal/mend/sacrifice, unless I can confirm that canceling an existing support drops the points to 0.

Eventually I'll get to 1-5 and can see if it takes fewer of each action/position to achieve C support by being deployed in 2 chapters than just 1.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

(update + hopeful theory)

Well, looks like healing did what I was afraid of earlier, introduced decimals if I stick with my earlier numbers.

So, for Laura x Meg, the 00 01, I'm now going to have to change it to:

2 points per shove, 4 points per adjacent, 5 points per staff usage, 6 points per hold. Needs 34 points for a C support.

Again, to get points for adjacent or a hold the units must be in that formation at the beginning of player phase (when the screen puts up the blue player phase thing)

If I don't make that change, then I'm looking at 2.5 points per staff usage. I say staff usage because I mostly tested with heal but I did one test with mend. I'll do another later to confirm, but it looks fine.

My successes:

6 adjacent, 2 'heal's, 1 shove, success

6 adjacent, 2 'heal's, success

6 adjacent, 2 'heal's, success

My failures:

5 adjacent, 2 'heal's, failure

3 adjacent, 3 'heal's, failure

5 adjacent, 2 'heal's, 1 shove, fail

5 adjacent, 2 'mend's, 1 shove, fail

Based on the numbers, the last two both score 16 or less. Since I doubt mend would be worth less than heal, it appears that staff usage might just be the same point value for building supports regardless of the staff itself. There are obviously many more staves, but I won't have access to anything else until 1-E at the earliest (I thought there was a restore staff by 1-8, but I can't find anything about it on this site, so I guess not).

This brings up an interesting pattern so far, given:

00 01,

2, 4, 5, 6, needs 34.

00 02/FF 02,

1, 3, ?, 5, needs 35.

This much is what's been confirmed by my testing so far.

(Theory time)

So hopefully a heal with a 00 02 pairing will give 4 points and maintain the pattern.

An interesting possibility, then, is that shoving might not accrue points for 03 and 04 support types. I don't think this will be the case, and I suspect the pattern will soon be broken, but it is an interesting possibility. It could even mean negative points for shoving in a 04 relationship, but I doubt that very much. I won't be able to test that until 3-P, though, since the first 04 is Soren x Shinon. It will also be interesting to see if Shinon and Ike build points at all with shove, since the pattern would suggest 0 points for their shoving.

At the very least, it gives me educated guesses to start testing with when I get access to other strengths of support pairings. So far, I've just been taking shots in the dark, as you can see by some of the tests I've typed here in which I did 9 of something then 7 of something and had success both times. If I'm lucky, it could end up being:

(order: shove, adjacent, staff use, carrying)

3, 5, 6, 7, needs 33 for 00 00

2, 4, 5, 6, needs 34 for 00 01

1, 3, 4, 5, needs 35 for 00 02

0, 2, 3, 4, needs 36 for 00 03

?, 1, 2, 3, needs 37 for 00 04

At least, that's what I'll be testing to see if it works. This also brings up the possibility that each map gives a value between 3 and 7 depending on natural strength of the pairing when both units are deployed. I'm hoping for that, anyway. It would mean a C support needs 40 points, which is a nice round number. It would be really nice if I just have to try a success and a failure to confirm each natural affinity. I won't be able to confirm much of this until I get to part 3, though. I'll likely get more than half of it checked out by the end of part 1, but not all. And I'll be able to see if 1-6 gives the (theoretical) map bonus once or twice.

Eventually I'll get to 1-5 and can see if it takes fewer of each action/position to achieve C support by being deployed in 2 chapters than just 1. Hopefully it'll change a 00 02 from 35 points required to 30 points required. That would be nice, too.

Sadly, though, I'm not yet seeing a usefulness for FF, but maybe with the other FF's that aren't 02's I'll see something. So far I only have Meg x Aran, but soon I'll be testing some other pairs if I can confirm canceling a support drops accrued points to 0.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I'm powering through to part 3 so I can test your theories on the GM's and try a few things myself. Take your time.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm powering through to part 3 so I can test your theories on the GM's and try a few things myself. Take your time.

Okay, cool. I'll just play around in part 1 then. I'm just glad for the battle saves in NM, because the number of times I've started 1-4 from turn 11 is staggering. Without battle saves I don't think I would have done this much.

Oh yeah, to everyone (anyone?) reading:

One thing I'm not certain if I made clear is this:

Putting units adjacent on the last turn or rescuing on the last turn of a map does nothing for support points. At least in non-defence maps. I'll find out in 1-5 if it's true for defence maps as well, but I think it will be. Shoving and staff usage, of course, would still accrue points. But if you want to build points at the end of a map by adjacency or rescuing, you'd have to set units adjacent or rescue units on the second last turn or before. It is all about units' positions at the beginning of the player phase (when the blue words come up), not at the end of the phase nor when you kill the last enemy.

More coming soon, but so far it looks like the chapter bonus might be pretty large, and FF 01 might be mostly the same as 00 01.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, time for an update.

First off, the theory needs a little alteration. Based off testing, I've got this so far:

2, 4, 5, 6, 16 needs 50 for C with 00 01

1, 3, ?, 5, 15 needs 50 for C with 00 02

Still need to go back to 1-3 to heal test Ilyana x Laura for the third value in 00 02, but whatever.

The order is:

Shove, adjacent, staff use/sacrifice, carrying, chapter bonus.

Obviously, the chapter bonus happens automatically if the both units of the potential support pair are deployed. I still have to confirm that the bonus is not there if either unit is not deployed, but it would make sense.

For example, the result for 00 02 is that if you want to reach C in one map it takes 35 points from shoves, starting turns adjacent, staff use/sacrifice, starting a turn carrying a unit. The other 15 points to reach 50 comes from being deployed. If you want to reach C in two maps, it only takes 20 points from doing those 4 types of things, the other 30 come from the 15 + 15 points for chapter bonuses.

So, the running theory would be:

3, 5, 6, 7, 17 needs 50 for 00 00 and FF 00

2, 4, 5, 6, 16 needs 50 for 00 01 and FF 01

1, 3, 4, 5, 15 needs 50 for 00 02 and FF 02

0, 2, 3, 4, 14 needs 50 for 00 03 and FF 03

-1, 1, 2, 3, 13 needs 50 for 00 04 and FF 04

The bold is of course what I'm sure of so far. I finally got around to some testing in 1-5. I haven't tested over 3 maps, and I'm not going to, but I would assume the chapter bonus would be the same.

I sincerely hope that I'll be wrong about the other FFs, because it seems a shame that the programmers set it up and did nothing with it.

Also, I'm sure for 00 01, 00 02, and FF 02 that canceling a created support instantly drops the amount of points to 0 and it needs to be built from scratch. I'm unwilling to assume this holds true for the others, at the moment.

Anyway, some testing.

Going back to the Laura x Meg healing test,

6 adjacent, 2 'mend's also succeeded, so mend is not worth less than heal, and from earlier testing it is not worth more.

Also tested Sacrifice with Micaiah x Meg, another 00 01 pairing.

6 adjacent, 2 sacrifice, success.

6 adjacent, 1 sacrifice, 2 shoves, failure.

So sacrifice appears to be worth the same as staff healing, and I'll assume that holds true for the other types of pairs.

Also, for the canceling support, I made Laura x Leo, Micaiah x Edward, canceled them both, and made Laura x Nolan and canceled it too.

Laura x Leo (00 02)

2 shoves, 11 adjacent, success

1 shove, 11 adjacent, failure

Micaiah x Edward (00 01)

6 adjacent, 2 shoves, 1 sacrifice, failure

Laura x Nolan (FF 02)

11 adjacent, 1 shove, failure

Each of the failures would be 1 point less than needed, so a canceled support doesn't even leave them with 1 point.

Trading items. No points.

Laura x Meg (00 01)

7 adjacent, 1 heal, 6 or 7 trades. Failure

Again, 1 point short without including the trades. If 6 trades didn't get even 1 point, then trades don't build support points.

Finally here is the testing for 2 map supports.

Laura x Meg

1-4: 6 adjacent

1-5: 1 adjacent.

success

1-4: 6 adjacent

1-5: nothing.

success

1-4: 2 adjacent, 1 shove

1-5: 2 adjacent.

success

1-4: 2 adjacent, 1 shove

1-5: 1 shove, 1 heal

failure

(for anyone counting, this gets 49 points based on the numbers at the top of this post.)

Ilyana x Meg

1-4: 8 adjacent

1-5: 2 adjacent

success

1-4: 8 adjacent

1-5: nothing

success

1-4: 4 adjacent, 2 shoves

1-5: 2 adjacent

success

1-4: 4 adjacent, 2 shoves

1-5: 1 adjacent, 2 shoves

failure

(again, 49 points based on the above numbers)

Aran x Meg

1-4: 8 adjacent

1-5: 2 adjacent

success

1-4: 8 adjacent

1-5: 1 adjacent

success

1-4: 4 adjacent, 2 shoves

1-5: nothing

failure

(44 points)

1-4: 4 adjacent, 2 shoves

1-5: 2 adjacent

success

1-4: 4 adjacent, 2 shoves

1-5: 1 hold

failure

(again, 49 points based on the above numbers, also he picked up meg on turn 5 and kept hold of her until the end of the map. He only got the points for the hold once. Since the map ends before the last ally phase, it isn't conclusive for maps like 2-E, 3-7, 3-13, but I stand by the assumption that there are no points awarded at the end of a turn, and that adjacent or rescuing points are only assessed when the blue letters saying player phase show up)

So again, there doesn't appear to be a difference between FF 02 and 00 02.

One final test set that I did, was Micaiah x Volug (FF 01) in a single map.

5 hold, 1 adjacent, success

4 hold, 1 adjacent, 1 sacrifice, failure

Note that the first test is worth 34 (+ 16) points and the second is worth 33 (+ 16) points, meaning that FF 01 appears the same as 00 01, at least for one map. Since 1-6 is a double map, I can't test Micaiah x Volug accurately until I've done a few other things in 1-6 with Jill/Zihark/Taur and other units to determine if it gets 2 chapter bonuses, but I think at this point I'm going back to 1-3 to make Ilyana and Aran support people and try to go C to B in 1-4 with them. Also I'll use it to test if points above the cutoff count towards B, and if the convos are required to get B or if they give points towards B.

It's a good thing this game is kinda predictable. When I tried to get a failure assuming 40 point requirements and 5/6 point chapter bonuses, and it kept succeeding, the next logical guess was 50 point requirements resulting in 15/16 point chapter bonuses. Which turned out to be correct.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

Nice, things seem to be going smoothily. It is quite convenient that IS is usually quite predictable (otherwise it would be hard to obtain growth rates and also the coded terrain and support data for this game).

I think you're cautious enough with the testing, which is definitely a good trait. The worst that could happen is getting complacent with the testing and then realising one simple misassumption has screwed you over >___<

[Interceptor]

Really nice work so far Narga, I'm impressed. It seems like you've pretty much got this thing in the bag, aside from some odd cases like 1-6.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think you're cautious enough with the testing, which is definitely a good trait. The worst that could happen is getting complacent with the testing and then realising one simple misassumption has screwed you over >___<

Yeah, I'm trying to be careful and not overlook things that could lead to a mistake later on. That's also why I don't just cancel Sothe x Micaiah and test them in 1-4, because I can't assume that canceling an FF 00 will drop it to 0. Besides, once I get to 1-8 I can test Micaiah x Rafiel or Nailah x Rafiel anyway.

Really nice work so far Narga, I'm impressed. It seems like you've pretty much got this thing in the bag, aside from some odd cases like 1-6.

Yeah, for C anyway, with 3 or 4 different "support affinities". That's what I'm calling the 00 01, 00 02, etc stuff anyway. If anyone can come up with a better name I don't mind.

Anyway, now for a silly comment:

I'm thinking Meg for top tier of testing C supports. Meg shows up at the perfect time for testing, has 3 different support affinities in her first chapter, including the 2 different kinds of 02s. Aran would be good for his FF 01, but he shows up mid 1-3 so it can't initially be assumed that he gets his full chapter bonus. Ilyana doesn't have as many options in her first chapter as Meg does, and starts next to her only 00 01 in 1-3 so testing can't be done on whether adjacency in the first turn counts. Everyone else will have built up support points and thus need to have their support canceled, but it can't be assumed before testing that canceling a support drops it to 0. Meg is the safest way to test and gets a fair amount of information.

Ike would be top tier and Meg only high tier if I didn't have to go through ~16 chapters just to get to him. He has 5 different support affinities in his first chapter, then gets another one 4 chapters later. Instead, by the time Ike shows up the only thing he gives that can't yet have been tested is 00 00 and 00 03, but Oscar/Boyd/Rolf also show up with a 00 00 so the only thing he uniquely gets is a 00 03.

For B supports and A supports, Meg falters a little bit because of 1-6 issues and 1-5 only being 6 turns long, but for only looking at C supports, she is undeniably top tier.

Anyway, I couldn't resist making one silly comment after beating 1-5 ~6 times and 1-4 ~5 times from turn 1 and dozens (not an exaggeration, easily over 24 times) of times from turn 11 (going a little bat crazy), but I promise my next post will have serious testing information (likely about attaining B support with Ilyana or Aran in 1-4 with someone and also how many chapter points Aran gets for arriving partway through the chapter).

For B, I'm going to start off with assuming the same values, but if that's wrong, which direction should I go first with the 50 point requirement? Up or Down? Any guesses?

Edited July 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

I'd go down, since there's less numbers : P

[Aether7]

Well it appears that there is no difference between the 00 and FF. So what is (was) it for then?

My guess it that IS was originally going to do supports similar to PoR instead of having everyone support anyone. The FF then represents the limited support options that were originally planned but later scrapped in favor of the current system. It was probably left in the code so they could test the game both ways, toggling the FF on or off. Any other ideas?

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, a little more done. I found out a couple of things, but most of this post is just going to be data. As usual, I'll put the reader's digest version at the top.

Aran gets no chapter bonus for 1-3. It makes sense, since he isn't deployed with everyone else. Chances are it's a case of "are you on the map in blue on turn 1 when the blue words appear?" or something. After doing testing for things in 1-6 (which itself is after C to B in 1-5), I'll be checking out to see if Jill or Zihark or Tauroneo get points for being allies in 1-5, but this likely means that Leo gets no chapter bonus for 1-P (as if it matters), Sothe gets no bonus for 1-2, Tormod/Vika/Muarim get no bonus for 1-7, BK gets no bonus for 1-9 (as if it matters), Heather gets no bonus for 2-1, Marcia gets no bonus for 2-E, BK gets no bonus for 3-6 (as if it matters), Leanne gets no bonus for 3-11, Pelleas gets no bonus for 4-2, and Lehran gets no bonus for 4-E-5 (as if it matters).

Another interesting thing is that the recruiting conversation between Laura and Aran also appears to give no points.

Since J/Z/T are pending for 1-5, Volke would then also be pending for 4-5, since he actually is on screen on turn 1. I'm pretty sure units that suddenly show up but are on the advance screen would count, like Tormod/Vika/Muarim in 4-5. I don't remember 2-2 perfectly, but I think Nealuchi and Leanne are there when the blue words appear the first time. I also don't quite remember 1-9, but I know BK isn't there for the advance screen, and I don't think he's there until after the blue words. Also I don't remember if Marcia appears in 2-E before the blue words or not, I just know she isn't on the advance screen. Anyway, this hurts Pelleas' prospects of getting to a C with anyone by 4-E, by the way. He only gets one chapter bonus, not two. I.S. really knows how to shoot certain characters in the foot, eh?

(if anyone would like to clear up my questions about 1-9, 2-2, and 2-E it would be great)

So, the running theory would be:

3, 5, 6, 7, 17 needs 50 for 00 00 and FF 00

2, 4, 5, 6, 16 needs 50 for 00 01 and FF 01

1, 3, 4, 5, 15 needs 50 for 00 02 and FF 02

0, 2, 3, 4, 14 needs 50 for 00 03 and FF 03

-1, 1, 2, 3, 13 needs 50 for 00 04 and FF 04

I am now sure that healing is worth 4 for a 00 02 pairing, and by extension it should be for a FF 02 as well. I could create a Nolan x Laura pairing in 1-4 and cancel it to test an FF 02 and healing, but I don't see the point. So, that 4 has been added to the set of bold numbers.

That's actually pretty much all I've found out with the new testing, but there is a lot of numbers to post anyway:

First off, Ilyana + Laura for healing testing with a 00 02 pair.

Successes:

8 adjacent, 2 healing, 3 shoves

7 adjacent, 2 healing, 6 shoves

Failure:

7 adjacent, 2 healing, 5 shoves

For Aran testing, I'm putting it in the chronological of my testing, for display purposes, rather than my usual successes then failures:

Next, Laura x Aran in 1-3, an FF 01 pairing.

2 holds, 4 adjacent, 1 heal is 33 points.

So, 1 shove makes 35 points, so if there is a chapter bonus of 16 it'll succeed with one extra point.

2 holds, 4 adjacent, 1 heal, 1 shove failed.

Now, let x = 2 holds, 5 adjacent, 1 heal, aka 37 points.

x + 1 adjacent, failed

x + 2 adjacent, failed

x + 3 adjacent, failed (49 points)

x + 4 adjacent, success (53 points)

x + 3 adjacent, 1 shove, success (51 points)

(you can probably guess that x is my battle save)

Similar deal with Aran x Sothe, a 00 01 pairing, and was tested concurrently with Aran x Laura

2 holds and 5 adjacents is 32 points.

So, 1 shove makes 34 points, so if there was a chapter bonus of 16 it would have succeeded exactly

2 holds, 5 adjacent, 1 shove failed

Now, let y = 2 holds, 6 adjacent, aka 36 points

y + 1 adjacent, failed

y + 2 adjacent, failed

y + 3 adjacent, failed (48 points)

y + 4 adjacent, success (52 points)

y + 2 adjacent, 1 hold, success (50 points)

(you can probably guess that y is on the same battle save as x)

Now finally Ilyana x Aran, a 00 02 pairing.

So I never bothered trying to hit 35 points with Ilyana x Aran, I was doing it at the same time but the battle save has them at 12 points and I didn't want to test 3 things at once, 2 was bad enough, and I was afraid I hadn't kept perfect track of the number of times Ilyana started a turn adjacent to Aran (though it turns out I had).

So my battle save was after 4 adjacent. (well, there was a couple of saves earlier, but the one that still exists has 4)

So z = 4 adjacent, aka 12 points.

z + 2 shoves + 12 adjacent, success (50 points)

z + 1 shove + 12 adjacent, failure (49 points)

So I'm fairly certain that Aran gets no chapter bonus for 1-3. The only difference between Aran and the other units I mentioned is that Aran starts as an enemy and the rest start as allies. It is possible that the others get a chapter bonus for that reason, but considering they aren't on screen at the beginning, I doubt it. Marcia has the best chance of getting bonus points (in 2-E) of anyone in the group of units I mentioned, but considering I won't find out until 3-11 at the earliest, I'm not going to test her. Does anyone remember if Marcia shows up before the blue words say player phase or after? For the sake of thoroughness, of course, I will be testing one of Tormod/Vika/Muarim in 1-7 to see if they get the bonus, but if they don't and if Jill/Zihark/Tauroneo don't get anything for 1-5 (as I said, I'll be testing that later, too) then at that point I'll be fairly certain a unit must be blue and on screen when turn 1 starts to get a chapter bonus.

Urg, Tormod and co. are Green when they show up, aren't they? So, they are almost in a group of their own. Only Heather fits in with their group. All the others (aside from Aran) start out in Blue, and I don't want to go back to 1-2 to test there, because then I'd have to start from 1-P again and beat 4 chapters just to find out what I'm already fairly certain about.

Guess I'll have to test with the BK in 1-9 if he shows up after the blue words say "player phase" for turn 1. If he shows up before, then I'll still test him to see if he gets bonus points, but then he won't be in the same category as Leo/Sothe/Marcia/Leanne/Pelleas anyway. Which leaves me with Marcia, who also might not be in that group, or Leanne. Which is all late part 3 before I get answers anyway.

Well, when I think about it more, I have been able to test Sothe, though. Not perfectly, but a little. See, if he gets a full bonus for 1-2, then between that and 1-3 and 1-4, he would already have 45 points for his 00 02 pairings and 48 points for his 00 01 and FF 01 pairings with Edward/Leo/Nolan. The simple fact that he takes a measly one shove to achieve a C support by 1-5 with any of them but Laura if he gets bonus points in 1-2 would mean that it would be rather simple to test in 1-4 to make sure he doesn't get the full bonus for 1-2. But since I don't remember how much shoving and adjacencies have been done in 1-2 and 1-3 and before my battle save in 1-4, I can't be certain he gets no bonus. I can confirm, though, that he doesn't get his full bonus for 1-2 because I know that I left Edward adjacent to Sothe for at least 1 turn in my 1-4 experience and he never got a C support with Ed.

Enough rambling. Just one last thing, does anyone remember any other units that follow the a similar pattern to Leo/Sothe/Aran/Tormod/Vika/Muarim/BK/Heather/Marcia/Leanne/Pelleas? That is, showing up after the start of the chapter?

[-Cynthia-]

Ulki/Janaff in 3-7.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ulki/Janaff in 3-7.

Right, them too. Now I'm afraid I may have forgotten others as well.

[Interceptor]

Marcia shows up immediately after you start 2-E, and before the blue Player Phase shows up. I just happened to have a 2-E save, since I love that chapter.

[Narga_Rocks]

Marcia shows up immediately after you start 2-E, and before the blue Player Phase shows up. I just happened to have a 2-E save, since I love that chapter.

Then I have absolutely no idea if she gets a chapter bonus.

Oh, and I forgot Haar in 2-P. He follows the same pattern as Tormod and co. since he starts green. Sadly his 2-P is too short for me to be able to check stuff with him. (It's funny nobody reminded me about him.)

@Red Fox: You said that you were plowing through to the GMs. If you haven't gotten to 2-E yet, can you check it out? Just count what Marcia does with a unit that wasn't in 2-P or 2-3, so like Brom, Calill, Nephenee or something. Then add it to what Marcia does with Calill in 3-9 or what Marcia does with Brom/Nephenee in 3-11 and then see if it makes a support. I guess it's a very long term thing, but you might get to it before I do.

This is a very unique case, though, since I think Marcia is the only one who isn't on the advance screen but appears before the blue words say player phase. If you don't want to check it out, I'll try to remember it if I finish all I can do in part 1 and decide to keep going. Just let me know.

Janaff/Ulki follow the same pattern as Tormod and company, so I might get to 1-7 before you get to 3-7.

@all:

The list of units that matter (aka not BK or Lehran) that probably don't get the chapter bonus in either their first chapter or some other chapter.

Leo/Sothe/Aran/Tormod/Vika/Muarim/Haar/Heather/Ulki/Janaff/Leanne/Pelleas/Stefan/Oliver.

Questionable:

Marcia/Volke

Feel free to add to it if you remember someone I don't.

Well, Leo doesn't likely matter since he gets the bonus from 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 all before the base first appears, and thus doing anything with Micaiah in 3 chapters that gets points will put him over the top to C (48 points plus anything is >= 50 for 00 01), and Edward x Leo likely doesn't need anything done since it's a FF 00 that almost certainly gives 17 points or more per chapter. 51 points puts him over the top.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

@Red Fox: You said that you were plowing through to the GMs. If you haven't gotten to 2-E yet, can you check it out? Just count what Marcia does with a unit that wasn't in 2-P or 2-3, so like Brom, Calill, Nephenee or something. Then add it to what Marcia does with Calill in 3-9 or what Marcia does with Brom/Nephenee in 3-11 and then see if it makes a support. I guess it's a very long term thing, but you might get to it before I do.

Will do. I'm nearing the end of part 1 as it is, so I'll be sure to make notes on Marcia.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, this part isn't fun. I don't know if I miscounted something, but C to B isn't easy at all.

First, though, Micaiah x Sothe, an FF 00. I will of course test this properly in 1-8 with Nailah and Rafiel or Rafiel and Micaiah. But assuming that the earlier theory was correct for FF 00, then canceling a Sothe x Micaiah appears to again drop the points to 0.

5 adjacent, 1 hold failed. (32 + 17 = 49)

6 adjacent, 1 shove, succeeded. (33 + 17 = 50)

Going off the assumption of what is worth what, the failure was with 32 points and the success was with 33 points. I'll do more extensive testing in 1-8 to make sure the rest of the actions are worth the right amount of points, and also to see if chanting is worth the same as heal/sacrifice. If FF 00 is confirmed in 1-8 then it would mean that canceling any support drops points to 0, at least considering how Micaiah and Sothe are FF 00 and start with A. Basically, no pairing will be stronger than that, so if even they drop to 0 after canceling, everyone drops to 0 after canceling.

Now for the C to B stuff, and I never let any of them have a convo:

Aran x Sothe, had precisely 50 points after 1-3 to get to the C, so there should be no overflow affecting this.

8 adjacent, 1 shove, successful B support.

8 adjacent, failure.

Now, at first it looks good, since 34 + 16 points succeeded, and 32 + 16 failed.

Then comes Ed x Leo:

6 adjacent, 1 shove, success.

Okay, fine, assuming 3, 5, 6, 7, 17 point distribution, that's fine, it makes 50.

4 adjacent, 4 shoves. success.

NO!

5 x 4 + 3 x 4 + 17 = 49.

Okay, so maybe FF gives more for getting to B or maybe their points above 50 for getting to C got carried over. No problem, I was expecting issues anyway since I haven't done much testing with FF 00 supports because I couldn't.

...

Ilyana x Laura had precisely 50 points after 1-3 to get to the C, so there should be no overflow affecting this.

10 adjacent, 1 heal, 1 shove, success.

11 adjacent, 1 shove, (34 + 15 = 49 points), success.

cry.

I hope I miscounted something they did in 1-4, because otherwise, urg. I really don't want to have to go back to the start of 1-3.

I knew it wouldn't be easy, but I was expecting some form of consistency.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, I'm a little less frustrated now. It seems like IS just upped the chapter bonus by 1 for going from C to B.

It also appears that the "support convos", such as they are, do not give any points nor are they required.

So, here's the theory:

For getting C:

3, 5, 6, 7, 17 needs 50 for 00 00 and FF 00

2, 4, 5, 6, 16 needs 50 for 00 01 and FF 01

1, 3, 4, 5, 15 needs 50 for 00 02 and FF 02

0, 2, 3, 4, 14 needs 50 for 00 03 and FF 03

-1, 1, 2, 3, 13 needs 50 for 00 04 and FF 04

For going from C to B:

3, 5, 6, 7, 18 needs 50 for 00 00 and FF 00

2, 4, 5, 6, 17 needs 50 for 00 01 and FF 01

1, 3, 4, 5, 16 needs 50 for 00 02 and FF 02

0, 2, 3, 4, 15 needs 50 for 00 03 and FF 03

-1, 1, 2, 3, 14 needs 50 for 00 04 and FF 04

And it's possible that B to A will boost the chapter bonus by another point, or do some other crazy thing. I don't know yet. I still haven't tested much to see anything even in C to B, and as such I haven't added anything to the set of bold numbers, as you can see.

Anyway, from before:

Micaiah x Sothe, an FF 00. Assuming that the earlier theory was correct for FF 00, then canceling a Sothe x Micaiah appears to again drop the points to 0.

5 adjacent, 1 hold failed. (32 + 17 = 49)

6 adjacent, 1 shove, succeeded. (33 + 17 = 50)

So I took that 6 adjacent, 1 shove from 1-4 and made a C support in the 1-5 base. Then in 1-5:

3 adjacent, 2 holds, 1 shove, (32 + 18 points), success.

5 adjacent, failure (25 + 18 = 43)

6 adjacent, failure (30 + 18 = 48)

5 adjacent, 2 shoves, failure (31 + 18 = 49)

5 adjacent, 2 shoves, Micaiah talked to Sothe and Sothe talked to Micaiah, failure (31 + 0 + 18 = 49)

So my next task is attempting to apply this new knowledge to the pairs in the previous post in 1-4 and see what happens and also getting extra points above the minimum in 1-3 and seeing if they carry over. Then do what I did before with taking two chapters to confirm the chapter bonus and true minimum points needed. (Like, the chapter bonus might have stayed the same and the min points had dropped from 50 to 49 or something, though I doubt it)

Anyway, it seems like there might still be no difference between FF ## and 00 ##, but I'll have to test an FF 01 and a 00 01 for C to B to be certain of that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, so a little bit of testing to see if extra points carry over.

They don't.

As Mythbusters says, though, "If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing."

So, in 1-3 after getting all the pairings beyond 50 points, I then mashed end turn from turn 32 until turn 100 with 4 pairs standing next to each other.

Then in 1-4 I made Ed x Leo, Ilyana x Laura, Sothe x Aran, and Nolan x Micaiah.

Ed x Leo, FF 00:

5 adjacent, 2 shoves, (31 + 18 = 49), failure.

So since even one point carried over would've put them over the top, extra points do not carry over.

But since I can test more than one pair at a time, I did:

Ilyana x Laura, 00 02:

1 Heal, 9 adjacent, 2 shoves (33 + 16 = 49), failure.

Sothe x Aran, 00 01:

8 Adjacent, (32 + 17 = 49), failure.

Nolan x Micaiah, 00 01, attempting to succeed with precisely 33 points, since Aran and Sothe can't heal each other to hit 33 and are stuck hitting 32 or 34:

7 adjacent, 1 heal (33 + 17 = 50), success.

So the next test I'll do later is checking 2 chapters to confirm whether the chapter bonus did in fact increase by 1, or if the minimum point requirement dropped by 1.

Oh, and I also tested Ilyana x Laura (50 points only in 1-3) and Ed x Leo before doing the 100 turn thing in 1-3 to get failures in 1-4 since in the past I wasn't able to get it to fail.

Ilyana x Laura

11 adjacent, failure

10 adjacent, 3 shoves, failure

Remember, 11 adjacent and 1 shove succeeded earlier, so it seems like the value of the actions hasn't changed, at least for 00 02.

Ed x Leo

5 adjacent, 2 shoves, failure.

So that means I can make it fail, and it allowed me to attempt overkilling the points in 1-3 and do the same test in 1-4 to confirm failure, since I had to know for sure that this would fail without the 1-3 overkill.