Testing support data(?)

[VincentASM]

Glad to see you're working around the earlier problem with the C to B supports. Although it does seem strange that the chapter bonus has increased for the next Level, but you never know what IS is thinking.

I think reducing the C to B requirement to 49 would be more plausible in theory, but I haven't yet looked to see if the figures match the theory (I get the impression they might not). It could be like Weapon Levels where you actually start with 1 point if you can use the weapon. So support pairs could start with a base of 1 point if they're doable (unlike with the Black Knight and Lehran), which could account for the odd choice of 49 here.

[Aether7]

There could be another point received each chapter at base for supporting pairs regardless of deployment. This could be for training together inbetween chapters. So for an 02 C support they recieve 1 point at base and 15 points after completing the chapter if deployed. The total required still remains at 50.

[Narga_Rocks]

There could be another point received each chapter at base for supporting pairs regardless of deployment. This could be for training together inbetween chapters. So for an 02 C support they recieve 1 point at base and 15 points after completing the chapter if deployed. The total required still remains at 50.

You are right. It's a possibility I've never thought of, too. Ugh. Well, I guess I'll just have to accumulate 49 points in 1-4 then not deploy the units in 1-5 and see if they get to the next level in the 1-6 base. Urg. Still have to test the 2 chapter deployment first, but I'll get to your idea afterwards.

I think reducing the C to B requirement to 49 would be more plausible in theory, but I haven't yet looked to see if the figures match the theory (I get the impression they might not). It could be like Weapon Levels where you actually start with 1 point if you can use the weapon. So support pairs could start with a base of 1 point if they're doable (unlike with the Black Knight and Lehran), which could account for the odd choice of 49 here.

Well, it might be possible. Although, the last sentence of yours makes more sense for reaching C support than B support, but the first two sentences is similar but different to what Aether7 said after you, and is also plausible.

And I hope the Black Knight is actually possible. All I have to do is have her hold Micaiah for enough turns and I can see if they can support in 1-E.

Guess it's just more to test. Thoroughness is important.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

The BK and

Lehran

don't have support lines nor do they have support data. Its worth a try though I suppose : P

Edited July 29, 2009 by VincentASM

[Interceptor]

BK can't even pick up Micaiah in 1-9, no lie. You'll have to do it using the "shove and wait" method.

[Aether7]

Urg. Still have to test the 2 chapter deployment first, but I'll get to your idea afterwards.

I didn't mean to create more work for you. You should be able to test both of these at the same time since they both take 2 chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't mean to create more work for you. You should be able to test both of these at the same time since they both take 2 chapters.

I didn't mean to sound like I was too upset about it. Like I said, thoroughness is important. I'd rather cover everything than leave things out because no one thought of it, even if it means a bit more work.

But I have to test separately anyway since I have to get to 49 points in 1-4 and then do 1-5 without those people. To test two maps I get to like 10 + 15 = 25 or something so that I need another 10 + 15 in the following map.

It isn't too bad. I just put in the urgs and ughs because I feel them a little bit, not because I'm trying to sound petulant.

BK can't even pick up Micaiah in 1-9, no lie. You'll have to do it using the "shove and wait" method.

That blows. BK shoves Micaiah, Micaiah walks over to the BK. 4 points under the 00 02 growth, rather than 5. And it isn't like she'll ever be able to sacrifice for him, either. Or is it possible?

Still, I'll test it, despite the lack of support convos he has, just for thoroughness. Although, based on that fact, he likely can't get a C support with her anyway.

So, 4 x 13 = 52, so 13 shove + move beside before I'm sure. Might as well overkill it, though, since apparently it isn't likely to work. I'm thinking 50 turns beside without shoving.

Has anyone ever tried getting transformed Skrimir to pick up BK in 4-3? It's funny. BK says some macho thing, then you can actually hit B (on a gamecube controller) until Skrimir goes back to his original position and you can even make another unit do something then go back and order Skrimir. Or at least you can make Skrimir go somewhere else to do something. I forget precisely.

Oh, and so far with a little bit of testing, Vincent might be right about the extra point assessed once thing. I'll go into more detail when I have more tests done.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, the 4-3 convo is approximately what happens with Micaiah in 1-9. At least in 4-3 you can Smite the BK, and his 2MV in the desert means he gets exactly nowhere.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, as I said earlier, it seems Vincent might be right. More testing will come, but this is what I've done so far on the B to C two chapters thing, and a little bit with B to A.

So, I'm going back to the 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 point chapter bonuses from before (for 04 to 00, respectively), and assuming it applies to getting C, C to B, B to A.

Also, if you go to the base and choose to make a support, that gives you 1 point towards the next level of support. This will henceforth be known as the "point for making a support". Or maybe the "Programming crutch point", as I theorize later.

jokes aside:

Ed x Leo, FF 00

1-4:

1 adj, 1 shove, aka 8 points

1-5:

1 adjacent, fail. (1 + 8 + 17 + 5 + 17 = 48 points)

2 shoves, fail. (1 + 8 + 17 + 6 + 17 = 49 points)

1 adjacent, 1 shove, success. (1 + 8 + 17 + 8 + 17 = 51 points)

Obviously, I still have to confirm that what I think is 50 points is in fact a success. But to do that I have to start up 1-4 again, so I'm updating here now.

Ilyana x Laura, 00 02

1-4:

4 adjacent, 2 shoves, aka 14 points.

1-5:

1 adjacent, 1 heal, success. (1 + 14 + 15 + 7 + 15 = 52 points) (Yeah, I know the heal was overkill, but Ilyana was injured and I forgot.)

1 heal, failure. (1 + 14 + 15 + 4 + 15 = 49 points.)

1 heal, 1 shove. (1 + 14 + 15 + 5 + 15 = 50 points.)

So this one I don't even need to reconfirm, the extra point happens only once when they are deployed each map.

Sothe x Aran, 00 01

1-4:

3 adjacent, aka 12 points.

1-5:

1 adjacent, 1 shove, success. (1 + 12 + 16 + 6 + 16 = 51 points)

1 adjacent, failure. (1 + 12 + 16 + 4 + 16 = 49 points)

Can't get them to 50 on the dot since they can't heal each other. So, I'm stuck going back to the start of 1-4 and testing Nolan and Micaiah from C to B in 1-4 and 1-5, which means I have to play 1-4 from the beginning. If I was just testing Leo x Ed, I have a battle save where they only have 5 points out of the 15 they need for a two chapter B so I could hit 50 on the dot without replaying 1-4 yet again.

(I like this site's edit button)

I guess I can also go with Aran x Laura since I don't need Ilyana x Laura or Sothe x Aran anymore. Hmm, guess I should load from 1-3 to make Ilyana x Sothe so I at least get a support for the two of them, even if I don't keep them near each other often in 1-4 or 1-5.

Not too bad, though. But I'll also have to make two different runthroughs of 1-5 because I need to get a small number of points in 1-4 to attempt to hit 50 on the dot for FF 00 and 00 01, and then I need to reach 49 points in 1-4 for FF 00 and not deploy Leo/Eddie in 1-5 and see if they still hit B to test Aether7's theory.

The way I figure it, if even an FF 00 can't get points in the base, none of the other support affinities will either. I think it's a fair assumption.

Anyway, I also raised Nolan and Micaiah (00 01) to B in 1-4 so I could test them a bit in 1-5 for B to A.

So:

1 sacrifice, 1 adjacent, 1 hold, success. (1 + 16 + 5 + 4 + 24 = 50)

2 adjacent, 4 holds, failure. (1 + 16 + 8 + 24 = 49)

2 sacrifices, 1 adjacent, 3 holds, failure. (1 + 16 + 10 + 4 + 18 = 49)

So yeah, it looks like when you get into the base and nab that C support, the game starts you at one, and ditto with when you strengthen them to B.

I'm guessing the reason they start with 0 before getting a C support is because they really are starting from nothing. Maybe it was easier to program to just dump a placeholder in there so that the game would count up to reach B and if they'd tried to put in a 0 it might have defaulted to adding points to reach C even though C was already reached, or something.

Whatever the reason, I have a few more tests to confirm this for C to B, then eventually I'll get to B to A and confirm there too. However, it seems likely it'll work the same way, given how if they defaulted at 2 or something I would've seen it already.

Oh, and another thing out of left field because I haven't talked about it in a while. Defend chapters:

Anyone who has paid close attention to their turn count stats after clearing the game might notice that if they didn't kill the boss in a given defence chapter, like 3-5 for example, then your turncount listed is 1 more than the game said to defend for. So to go into more detail:

2-P says 9 turns, and you can't even kill boss to speed it up.

2-E will likely say one over, but I've always killed the boss so I wouldn't know.

3-5 says 11 turns if you don't kill the boss.

3-7 says 13 turns.

3-13 says 13 turns if you don't kill the boss.

So, because of this, my theory is that for these chapters only, if you don't end them early (ie: don't kill the boss, ever, for 2-E, 3-5, 3-13), then you'll get the points for having someone rescued or being adjacent at the end of the last turn. This is because it seems to me that the next turn has started. Obviously, I'll have to check it when I get there, unless Red Fox of Fire can use two of Brom/Nephenee/Haar/Heather and make them reach C or B in 2-E if and only if the extra points would count. Elincia/Leanne could probably reach C in 2-P alone despite it's limited turns because they are FF 01, and it can be confirmed if they reached in the 2-E base. Or Marcia/Elincia could be tested (00 01) but the only way to actually know is by looking at supports in the 2-3 base and seeing if Marcia says 1. Since Marcia isn't in the 2-E base it's the only way. Also, Marcia would have to be kept away from Leanne and Nealuchi in 2-P because the 1 next to Marcia's name wouldn't let us know with whom she got enough points. Since Haar probably doesn't get the chapter bonus, she could stay next to him for the last 4 turns and they wouldn't support anyway.

And the two reasons why 1-5 doesn't give extra points is:

a ) the last ally phase never happens

b ) your turn count for that chapter is listed as 6, not 7.

One last thing, a little off topic:

Yeah, the 4-3 convo is approximately what happens with Micaiah in 1-9. At least in 4-3 you can Smite the BK, and his 2MV in the desert means he gets exactly nowhere.

Actually I don't mind the BK in 4-3 too much. Generally he only gets to attack the crossbow guys and then he isn't near anything anymore. I actually appreciate his help since it speeds things up and I don't lose too much exp for it. But once those 3 crossbow guys attack him that's it. I think I had Skrimir shove him once if he can and either way I try to make sure he doesn't kill anything more. Then as you said, he doesn't move much, so it doesn't matter afterward. I didn't even need to have someone constantly smiting him to prevent him from doing stuff. And I think he may have stopped moving once the enemies were far enough, or maybe I just had people in his way so he only moved 1, or something. I don't remember. It was more than a month ago.

Of course, on NM or EM I'd probably rather he wasn't there since enemies are so easy to kill and I like having 20/20/20 units. HM is where I appreciate his presence for one turn.

Oh, and does your first sentence mean that Micaiah says something macho if the BK tries to pick her up?

And I want to say one more time:

I love battle saves.

Sure, I barely used them in my non HM playthroughs, usually only when I was annoyed or because I wanted certain characters to get speed or strength, but now...

Clear out all the enemies in 1-3, battle save, try stuff, load battle save, try more stuff, load battle save, try more stuff, etc.

Clear out all the enemies but 1 in 1-4, battle save, try stuff, etc.

Get to a safe enough position in 1-5, battle save, try stuff, etc. while enemies wish they could actually hit me up the ledge.

Makes it so much faster and easier.

Although sometimes I had to start 1-5 on turn 1 again for various reasons.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, so this post is about confirming numbers for affinities and discovering that not being deployed means no bonus points.

First, testing for other support affinities and those I haven't yet been able to get to hit 50.

So, Aran x Laura, since it's an FF 01 and I haven't yet done one of those for a C to B

single map test:

1 adjacent, 1 heal, 4 holds, success. (1 + 16 + 4 + 5 + 24 = 50)

1 adjacent, 2 heals, 3 holds, failure. (1 + 16 + 4 + 10 + 18 = 49)

two map tests:

1-4:

1 adjacent, 1 heal, aka 9 points

1-5:

2 adjacent, success. (1 + 9 + 16 + 8 + 16 = 50)

1 heal, 1 shove, failure. (1 + 9 + 16 + 7 + 16 = 49)

So FF 01 seems the same as 00 01.

Next, Nolan x Micaiah, since they are a 00 01 that can actually get the 5 points for healing/sacrificing and hit 50 on the dot and I haven't done that for 00 01 in two maps yet (previously did it in a single map though, a few posts ago, #50, interestingly enough).

1-4:

2 adjacent, 1 sacrifice, aka 13 points.

1-5:

1 adjacent, success. (1 + 13 + 16 + 4 + 16 = 50)

So that works, and from Aran x Sothe I know 49 doesn't so it's good.

Finally, pushing Ed and Leo (FF 00) up to 49 points in 1-4 and not deploying them in 1-5.

1-4:

5 adjacent, 2 shoves. (1 + 25 + 6 + 17 = 49)

1-5:

Deploy neither Ed nor Leo. Failure.

Deploy Leo but not Ed. Failure.

So there's no point in deploying Ed but not Leo, since it wouldn't make sense if it got points given what got none.

Basically, though, it seems that the game won't even give one point if they aren't deployed. Since they are a FF 00, I can't imagine the game giving points to other affinities when not deployed but not this one.

So, still have to test Ed and Leo to hit 50 points on the nose in two maps since previously I only hit 49 and 51. After that, I think it's on to 1-6 and checking out their chapter bonuses, although there might have been something I was thinking of doing beforehand but have forgotten. Hopefully only temporarily forgotten, if there is something.

[Interceptor]

I didn't even need to have someone constantly smiting him to prevent him from doing stuff. And I think he may have stopped moving once the enemies were far enough, or maybe I just had people in his way so he only moved 1, or something. I don't remember. It was more than a month ago.

Yeah, another strategy is simply to put units in all of his likely movement squares. He will not go anywhere. It does not take a full eight units to box him in if you reduce his options for moving in the first place.

Oh, and does your first sentence mean that Micaiah says something macho if the BK tries to pick her up?

She does indeed.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, I'm starting to wonder if IS does something silly in part 4 like boost support bonuses.

This goes back to what I was saying at the beginning about Calill and Ilyana, a 00 02.

I took 14 turns in 4-2 and got them from C to B, so since 1 heal and 10 adjacents would do it, it seems possible that I would've done something like that since I was trying to boost their support level and trying pretty hard.

I 10 turned 4-5, and got them from B to A. So 2 heals, 8 adjacents, 2 shoves would do it, but I really don't think I did all that in 10 turns, and I'm also pretty sure I didn't do more than 2 heals between them.

Obviously I'll test this more extensively later, or if Red Fox of Fire finishes with part 3 before I get to part 4 she can test it if she's willing.

Either way, this also brings up the small possibility that part 2 or part 3 also change the bonuses.

I'm hoping, however, that I really did just do a lot of support building stuff in 4-5 and the points and requirements are consistent throughout the game, because otherwise there would have to be different tables for each part or something.

Now that I think about it even more, the Calill x Ilyana thing was on HM, and I'm testing NM, so I suppose I should do a little bit of testing in HM 1-3 with Ilyana or Aran just to confirm. Probably only have to do one support affinity up to C to see if it's the same. Or rather, I'm only testing one thing on HM.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

So, 1-6 gives one chapter bonus. Fun. I guess I should've known given how it only shows up once in the turncount list as a single chapter and only gives bexp once, unlike 4-E-#, for example.

And I did a little extra Ed x Leo (FF 00), since I hadn't yet tested to get them to hit 50 on the dot in two chapters.

1-4:

2 adjacent, aka 10 points

1-5:

1 adjacent, success. (1 + 10 + 17 + 5 + 17 = 50)

Next up, 00 01 with Micaiah x Nolan, got B in 1-4 as well as extra points, so testing in 1-5 to see if extra points past B count towards A, since I'd only tested C to B like that before.

2 adjacent, 4 holds, failure. (1 + 8 + 24 + 16 = 49)

Finally, Meg and Ilyana (00 02) in 1-6, got precisely 50 points between 1-4 and 1-5 to start 1-6 with C.

1-6-1: 3 adjacent. (9 points)

1-6-2: 3 adjacent, 1 shove. (10 points)

So, if there were two chapter bonuses we'd have: 1 + 9 + 15 + 10 + 15 = 50 and a successful B.

However, it failed.

So, only one chapter bonus, boohoo.

Even tried 2 extra adjacents in 1-6-2 just in case the only adjacent I did in 1-6-1 was on the first turn and I miscounted or something.

Didn't help.

Oh well.

[Interceptor]

So, 1-6 gives one chapter bonus.

Vindication. Like I've always said, the game only counts 1-6 as a single chapter, which is why setting up Zihark and Nolan to C by the start of 1-7 is pretty difficult without constraining your team.

[Narga_Rocks]

Vindication. Like I've always said, the game only counts 1-6 as a single chapter, which is why setting up Zihark and Nolan to C by the start of 1-7 is pretty difficult without constraining your team.

You're not kidding. 35 points in ~15 turns. 11 adjacent and 2 shoves. There's only 4 turns in which you don't have to keep them side by side, which means there's plenty of times at least one of them must give up player phase offence.

Still, though, I have to confirm that Zihark/Jill/Tauroneo get nothing for being NPCs in 1-5. I don't see why they would, but really as long as I get 49 points (including the 1-6 chapter bonus) with some pairing I can confirm. Annoying thing is, though, that means I'll either have to gimp my strategies in 1-6 or extend beyond turn 5 in 1-6-2, which means more enemies to deal with. Or maybe I'll just do it all in 1-6-1 when there's only one guy left. But that one also has reinforcements on turn 9 I normally don't have to meet. Sigh. Either way I'm stuck.

Then if I want to be completely thorough I then have to go back to 1-5 and get a character to stand next to Zihark at least once to confirm adjacent points can't be gathered when one of the units is an NPC. Also, Jill occasionally stands next to Tauroneo so I could use that to see if two NPCs can build points.

It would be interesting, though unlikely, if Jill and Zihark can get a chapter bonus for 1-5. Earth x Thunder A doesn't help as much as E x E A, but still, it would be neat.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Sorry to interrupt, but let me just wrap my head around this...

Basically it sounds like this.

Some characters have a sort of "list" of which effects how it grows and on the person. Some can go fast, some can go relatively slow (would I be correct in assuming the IkexShinon grows slower than just random other supports?).

Shoving helps, but starting player phase next to eachother helps more, and so does rescuing? For some reason it made me think of Fiona, but I doubt it would make her suck any less.

Certain chapters give specific support bonuses for characters deployed.

Am I steady so far?

If so, couple strike me as interesting...

-Seems out of all the GM, the slowest support Ike could ask for outside of Shinon is Rolf, Gatrie and most importantly Mia.

-Danved's around nothing BUT mounted units, and it's not like they can't kick ass with a rescued unit in their first chapter, and the second the CRK appear they aren't doing dick anyways. Danved might have utility as part 2 support battery.

-Is there any reason Ulki and Janaff shouldn't support?

-Same with Eddie and Leo, though Nolan certainly is an option for the fast and lucky myrm...

-Elincia's supports are garbage.

-I think Zihark would make better friends with Volug than Nolan it would appear. Not like Volug can't fucking rescue him...

-If Calill's gonna be friends with anyone, it's gonna be Nephenee.

-Seriously sucks to be Kyza, unless his hyper support with Lyre would make her suck less...

-Nolan's not too fast with Zihark it would seem, but Sothe's a fine alternative...

-Not any point in-game, but anyone find the FF 03 between Shinon and Heather as odd?...I think I may know why Heather's none too fond of men.

-Speaking of Zihark, him and Jill? She can rescue and fly him, and they're reasonably fast. He would love the thunder.

-Taur has nice speed with plenty of DB. He can rescue them and basically be invincible. He's pretty much real easily able to get a C ready for those unprepared for part 3.

-Actually it comes to mind, anyone with a mount can build a support rather quick with rescue...

-Anyone think the support between Naesala and Nealuchi (FirexDark for max offense) any good?

-Aran might easily be the most flexible supporter in the DB. Laura, Nolan, Sothe, Meg, even Fiona and Taur. The Taur one sounds interesting.

-Same with Boyd in the GM.

-Seems Marcia's best bet for a support part 2 is...Astrid...Just have her rescue Danved.

-Ranulf and Mordy anyone?

Just me thinking aloud...

Edited August 1, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Jaybee]

I think 1-5 does give a bonus. It's probably the reason why Z and Jill can always support by 1-7.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry to interrupt, but let me just wrap my head around this...

I'm wondering if there should be another topic where people talk about implications. Although, putting it in this topic doesn't seem so bad, but assuming Vincent is trying to read this to build a support article to be posted on the RD part of the site I don't know if we should force him to read through discussions to get to the posts about testing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad someone is reading about this and thinking about what it all means. Writing something down on this site where I can read it is even better.

Anyway, for now I'll just respond to some of the suggestions that spark my curiosity.

Shoving helps, but starting player phase next to eachother helps more, and so does rescuing?

Yep, rescuing is like overdrive, especially for an FF 00 or 00 00, just takes 5 turns in a single chapter for those. Or 1 adjacent and 4 holds. Just to reiterate, the player phase must begin holding the unit, so the held unit loses the previous enemy phase and obviously the holding unit won't be so great on that enemy phase either.

Certain chapters give specific support bonuses for characters deployed.

Well, all chapters (except 1-6-2) give a bonus, and that bonus is based on the type of growth. As such, each pairing gets a bonus based on its growth.

Am I steady so far?

Basically.

Seems out of all the GM, the slowest support Ike could ask for outside of Shinon is Rolf, Gatrie and most importantly Mia.

Well, since 9 turns adjacent in a single chapter is unreasonable, Ike's 00 01's aren't likely to grow a support level in a single chapter anyway.

His 00 02's aren't that bad in 2 chapters compared to a 00 01 (or an FF 01). The 01's take 5 adjacents in 2 chapters anyway, or 4 adjacents and 1 shove, or 3 and 3, 2 and 5, etc. That's not so much better than the 7 adjacents it takes for a 00 02, or 6 adjacents and 1 shove (2 shoves for getting C). The shoving gets a bit extreme though for any fewer adjacents.

The trouble comes when trying to pull a 02 in a single chapter, since 12 adjacents is usually more than the number of turns to finish a chapter. It is possible, though unlikely and very constraining, to pull a 01 in a single chapter. So it is worse, just not that much worse. For example, since 3-2 can be 15 turns long if you try to get everything, it is possible for an 01 to get C by 3-2, B by 3-3, and A by 3-5. It is less likely for a 02 to accomplish that. Still, though, the long term benefits from delaying Ike's upper support levels by 1 chapter each easily outweighs the cost of an extra chapter. And 9 adjacents in 15 turns is still rather constraining. However, for those that like killing the boss of 3-2 super quick, the difference between Ike's 01s and 02s is negligible.

Mist on the other hand (00 00), if she was a better fighter then she'd be Ike's perfect match. If florete dealt magic damage I don't think I'd be able to dismiss an Ike x Mist support so easily.

Seriously, it isn't too hard to get A Ike x Mist by 3-3. 3 heals + 3 adjacents in 3-P, 2 heals + 4 adjacents in 3-1 and again in 3-2 and A support by 3-3. It's a shame.

Elincia's supports are garbage.

I wouldn't go that far. She has a 00 01 with two different growth speedsters (Marcia and Calill) and either one gives +mt. Even ignoring that, Reyson is likely spending a lot of time vigoring her in their part 4 chapters if you are actually going to try to raise Elincia, and while I can't test chants until 1-8 I'm pretty sure they'd fall into the same category as heal/sacrifice for point gaining. But if you just meant her faster growths, then I can't count Reyson.

I think Zihark would make better friends with Volug than Nolan it would appear.

Well, aside from Volug's hero complex in 1-6-2 and starting way out in 1-8. Overall it likely balances out between the faster growth and the better access. Well, until B is achieved, because then they aren't kept apart anymore and the faster growth matters again.

If Calill's gonna be friends with anyone, it's gonna be Nephenee.

Healing can speed things up much. If you are taking a mage along to endgame with Calill, it isn't such a bad idea to support with Calill to get mt (extra strength with siege tomes). Of course, this only really applies to Ilyana. Bastian shows up too late and Soren already has +mt from his own affinity.

Nolan's not too fast with Zihark it would seem, but Sothe's a fine alternative...

Aran's not a bad idea, if you are using him in all chapters. C by 1-6, B by 1-8, A for 3-6. And it's a 01. +Def gets him to 3HKO (from tigers) in part 3 without resources much faster than he would otherwise. Ed's good, too, except for the 7 less avo. Still, Ed helps with his hand axes though, so it's a judgment call.

Not any point in-game, but anyone find the FF 03 between Shinon and Heather as odd?...I think I may know why Heather's none too fond of men.

Well, I don't know why they don't seem to like each other. And why doesn't Volke like her?

Taur has nice speed with plenty of DB. He can rescue them and basically be invincible. He's pretty much real easily able to get a C ready for those unprepared for part 3.

Ironically, the one unit that most people tend to have Taur pick up in 1-6 is Ed, the one guy with no boost. Well, there are others he misses, but still.

Seems Marcia's best bet for a support part 2 is...Astrid...Just have her rescue Danved.

IS hates Marcia. She goes from most available flier in PoR and capping str naturally at 20/19 to worse availability than quite a few fliers, and a 30% str growth.

She could theoretically grow a C Elincia during 2-P (quite easily, really, considering healing and canto), she just isn't in the 2-E base to activate it. More hate.

I think 1-5 does give a bonus. It's probably the reason why Z and Jill can always support by 1-7.

That's also what I'm thinking. It doesn't make sense, but without this being true Jill and Z are a 00 01 and as such would need 9 adjacents (they can't shove each other and most people probably don't rescue Zihark with Jill at any point) out of ~15 turns in 1-6 just to reach that C. I don't think he gets a bonus with anyone but Taur and Jill for 1-5, but it's possible he gets the chapter bonus with those two. I don't remember whether or not I've seen them able to support in 1-7 in my 3 playthroughs, and the one (well, three) time in testing I got to 1-7 I only looked at Meg x Ilyana, since that's all I was testing at the time.

[grandjackal]

I appreciate the response nonetheless. Perhaps I could start a new topic discussing the implications of your data, and you could come in to occasionally come in to clear the air?

[Narga_Rocks]

I appreciate the response nonetheless. Perhaps I could start a new topic discussing the implications of your data, and you could come in to occasionally come in to clear the air?

Yeah. It sounds good. Hopefully other people will join in on the discussions, too.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wow, it's been over a week. So, little bit more in 1-6 done and tested out some 1-7 stuff. 1-6 still appears to only give one chapter bonus and the LEA doesn't seem to get any chapter bonus either with each other or with other DB members in 1-7.

So, Meg and Ilyana (00 02)in 1-6:

1-6-1: 3 adjacents. (9 points)

1-6-2: 8 adjacents. (24 points)

Failure.

This comes to: 1 + 9 + 15 + 24 = 49.

Next try:

1-6-1: 3 adjacents. (9 points)

1-6-2: 8 adjacents, 1 shove. (25 points)

Success.

This comes to: 1 + 9 + 15 + 25 = 50.

As for 1-7, I did testing with 4 different pairs (at once, brain hurts)

First up, Tormod x Sothe, an FF 01:

Failures first:

8 adjacents, 1 shove, failure.

12 adjacents, failure.

Success:

12 adjacents, 1 shove, success.

Basically, the first attempt would get 32 + 2 + 16 = 50 if there was a chapter bonus, but it failed so there isn't.

The second nets 48 points since 49 can't be done on a 01 pairing that can't heal/sacrifice(/chant, probably).

The last test has 48 + 2 = 50 and it succeeded, so no chapter bonus for a pairing between a unit that starts green and a unit that starts blue.

Next one, Vika x Tormod, another FF 01 but they both start green.

Failures first:

8 adjacents, 1 shove, failure. (34 + 0)

12 adjacents, failure. (48 + 0)

Success:

12 adjacents, 1 shove, success. (48 + 2 = 50)

Next up, Tormod x Muarim, an FF 00 in which both start green.

Failures first:

6 adjacents, 1 shove, failure. (30 + 3 + 0 = 33, a chapter bonus would = 50)

8 adjacents, 3 shoves, failure. (40 + 9 + 0 = 49)

Success:

10 adjacents, success. (50 + 0 = 50)

Last one, Vika x Micaiah, a 00 01 in which one starts green and the other blue.

Failures first:

8 adjacents, 1 shove, failure. (34 + 0 = 34, a chapter bonus would = 50)

1 sacrifice, 2 adjacents, 6 holds, failure. (5 + 8 + 36 = 49)

Success:

1 sacrifice, 2 adjacents, 6 holds, 1 shove, success. (5 + 8 + 36 + 2 = 51)

I'll do further testing to see if adjacent points can be earned when a unit is green, either with each other or with blue units, and if Sothe shoving a green Tormod earns anything.

So, on top of the LEA it means anyone that starts green and isn't there at the beginning gets no chapter bonus, either with each other or with the blue units. In other words, the LEA, Haar in 2-P, Heather in 2-1, the hawks in 3-7, anything else where it's the same circumstance. Also, from before Aran is known to not get one in 1-3.

Oliver likely doesn't get one in 4-4, but he is there from turn 1 so he is different from Aran. Similarly, Zihark and Jill in 3-7 and 3-13 would likely not get the chapter bonus for the chapter in which they are recruited, if they are recruited. Oliver's answer can be obtained through testing with Zihark and Jill in 3-7. Also, though unlikely it is theoretically possible for other chapter bonuses to come out of nowhere, like a bonus for the DB in 3-7 or for Kieran/Sigrun/Tanith in 3-12, or Ike/Soren in 3-E, etc. It would be hilarious if Lethe/Mordecai can get points for 3-6. These can possibly be ignored, but I'd rather not.

Units in other circumstances, like Leo in 1-P, Sothe in 1-2, Jill/Zihark/Tauroneo in 1-5, Leanne/Nealuchi in 2-2, Marcia in 2-E, the CRKs in 2-E, Lethe/Lyre in 3-1, CRKs + Elincia in 3-10, Leanne in 3-11, Pelleas in 4-2, Stefan in 4-3, Volke in 4-5, also remain unknown.

Based on what the game is doing so far, of these units mentioned I'm pretty sure only Leanne/Nealuchi in 2-2 and Marcia in 2-E will actually get any chapter bonus, and Marcia is more questionable than Leanne/Nealuchi.

The other units do not start out in circumstances for which I have an answer yet, though. They either start in blue some time after turn 1 or start in green at the beginning of turn 1 or spend the entire chapter yellow.

Jill/Z/T I should know after I finish with 1-8 and my first FF 00 test from scratch, as well as vigor testing, and 1-9 BK x Micaiah testing. As for the rest, Leanne/Nealuchi should be answered when I reach 2-E, but the CRKs and Marcia in 2-E I wouldn't know until 3-9, and Lethe/Lyre I'll know in 3-4, Leanne in 3-E. It might be easier to know for Pelleas by testing in 1-2 and 1-3 and writing everything down to see what Sothe gets. Volke and Stefan are pretty much unique, though Stefan can likely be treated similarly to Pelleas. Still, Stefan doesn't just show up at some point, he is recruited from nothing, making him unique. Volke is the only unit in the entire game to start on the field on turn 1 in green and be recruitable in that chapter. Only Jill/Z/T in 1-5 or the CRKs in 3-10 come close for circumstance, but they can't be made blue in those chapters so he's different too.

Anyway, the reason I outlined all this when I'm so far away from testing so many of these things is that if anyone has saves near these spots and would like to do some testing and post it here then it would be great. I don't know how Red Fox of Fire is coming with her playthrough or if she is still going to be testing support data, but either way the more people contributing the better.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Unfortunately, I haven't had access to my Wii for about a week now, so I'm still stuck at 2-P. I'll be getting it back tomorrow, though, so that's when I'll boot it up again.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, I'm kind of annoyed with IS. Neither Vigor nor Blessing appear to give support points. Well, I know blessing certainly doesn't.

Anyway, first test is to make sure that going from B to A is the same as C to B. In the past my only B to A tests were single chapters, so finally I did a 2 chapter test after getting (base level) Meg and Ilyana to a B in 1-6.

So, two map tests for Ilyana x Meg, a 00 02:

1-7:

3 adjacents, aka 9 points.

1-8:

3 adjacents, failure. (1 + 9 + 15 + 9 + 15 = 49)

3 adjacents, 1 shove, success. (1 + 9 + 15 + 10 + 15 = 50)

So looks like B to A is basically the same as C to B, there is a "Programming crutch point" placed at the time the support is created and so only 49 points remain. There is no crutch point for reaching C since nothing was made beforehand.

Before getting into the massive Rafiel testing in 1-8, I'll just skip to 1-9 and my Black Knight x Micaiah testing.

So, as Int said, Micaiah says something macho if you try to have Black Knight pick her up, so I'm left with adjacents and shoving. Since shoving might potentially cause -1, I did it once without thinking but focused mainly on adjacents. Sacrifice is likely not possible since even the boss only has 34 mt.

>50 adjacents, 1 shove. Failure.

So it appears Vincent is right, and the Black Knight and Micaiah can't make a C support. There was really never much doubt given that Vincent said Black Knight doesn't have any support convos in the data, but I figured why not try anyway? Anyway, I wonder how the game made it this way. I've got a theory (it could be bunnies). As stated before, there is no crutch point for reaching C, so there is apparently nothing to deny the Micaiah x Black Knight support from building. But, Black Knight is grouped differently from Micaiah. If you go to the conditions screen, Black Knight is listed separately (He's under "independent"). It's possible that since he's in a different blue group he and Micaiah can't build points. This begs the question:

Can the CRK's that appear on turn ~8 in 2-E actually build points through any means with the units that were there at the beginning? I think they are in a separate blue group from the units that start the map. I'm sure that whether the CRKs gain a chapter bonus or not, they can at least get points between each other through adjacents and rescues (only danved has shove but insufficient con to shove anything and none of them can heal.) What I wonder is if, for example, you fly Calill (for example) over to the CRKs if Calill standing adjacent (for example) to Danved (for example) will build any points. I guess I went overboard on the for example thing, oh well. Sadly, I can't exactly get any conclusions for this kind of test until 3-9, and Marcia is likely a better unit to test with since she can at least build points with them in 2-3 to make a C in 3-9 possible.

Anyway, on to Rafiel and the stupid Heron abilities that do nothing for supports. Urg. It isn't like the game even makes it easy. The first time a heron appears in consecutive chapters is 3-7 and 3-8. The only easy way to test without having to beat at least one extra chapter afterwards is to wait until 3-7 and build points between Reyson and a beast tribe laguz. Oh well.

So, massive numbers of tests in 1-8:

Micaiah x Rafiel, an FF 00:

4 adjacent, 2 vigors, failure.

4 adjacent, 2 vigors, 1 sacrifice, failure. (Even under the 6 point or 3 point assumptions for vigor's worth she was meant to fail because I needed things to fail if other things succeeded in order to be sure about the value of vigor)

Nailah x Rafiel, another FF 00:

3 adjacent, 3 vigors, failure.

3 adjacent, 3 vigors, 3 shoves, failure. (So vigor can't even be worth 3 points or 15 + 9 + 9 + 17 = 50 and it should have succeeded)

Muarim x Rafiel, a 00 02:

9 adjacent, 2 vigors, failure.

11 adjacent, 2 vigors, failure. (Meant to succeed if vigor was worth 1 or more.)

Tormod x Rafiel, a 00 02:

10 adjacent, 1 vigor, failure.

11 adjacent, 1 vigor, failure. (Meant to fail if vigor was worth 1 or less, so it's useless like the Micaiah x Rafiel test was.)

Volug x Rafiel, a 00 02:

5 adjacent, 4 vigors, 1 blessing, failure.

9 adjacent, 4 vigors, 1 blessing, failure. (Meant to succeed if blessing was worth 4 and vigor worth 1)

Sothe x Rafiel, a 00 02:

6 adjacent, 3 vigors, 1 blessing, failure.

9 adjacent, 3 vigors, 2 shoves, 1 blessing, failure. (Meant to succeed if blessing was worth at least 3 points and vigor 1.)

Nolan x Rafiel, a 00 02:

11 adjacent, 1 shove, >5 blessings, failure. (Basically conclusive that blessing is worth nothing, since 34 + 15 + xy = 49 + x, so if xy >= 1 it should work. x is the number of blessings and y is the value of blessing. Since x > 1, y <= 0.)

In the end, I only have Nailah's and Muarim's tests to confirm that vigor is in fact worth nothing, since the rest of them were destined to fail anyway with the fact that blessing is worth nothing. As such, if I overcounted with both Nailah and Muarim then vigor could still be worth something rather than diddly. So I'll have to redo Nolan x Rafiel and Nailah x Rafiel and beat 1-9 yet again (battle save in 1-8 means only one enemy left and it's boxed in so it's easy).

So yeah, IS chose to ignore a perfectly good potential source of support points.

Might as well repost this:

3, 5, 6, 7, 17 needs 50 for 00 00 and FF 00

2, 4, 5, 6, 16 needs 50 for 00 01 and FF 01

1, 3, 4, 5, 15 needs 50 for 00 02 and FF 02

0, 2, 3, 4, 14 needs 50 for 00 03 and FF 03

-1, 1, 2, 3, 13 needs 50 for 00 04 and FF 04

So at this point I'll reconfirm for FF 00 a bit but I'm pretty sure the the top 3 are correct, and there is of course a single point bonus towards the next level when you make a support in the base, which reduces the required amount to 49 for reaching B or A.

[VincentASM]

Thanks for all the work, again ^^

For deciding support possibilities, IS seems to have coded a very specific list of which characters are able to support and the list only includes the playable characters, minus Lehran and the Black Knight. So it would be extremely unlikely for anyone outside the list to be able to support.

Edited August 9, 2009 by VincentASM

[Narga_Rocks]

For deciding support possibilities, IS seems to have coded a very specific list of which characters are able to support and the list only includes the playable characters, minus Lehran and the Black Knight. So it would be extremely unlikely for anyone outside the list to be able to support.

Neat. I still wonder about the CRKs in 2-E, since they are in a different blue group, but it seems like it is still very much possible for them to be able to build support points with the starting units. Still, it's something Red Fox of Fire or I should likely test in order to make sure they can build points with Calill/Marcia/etc. Even if there can only really be one test because of the amount of time between test and answer.