Testing support data(?)

[VincentASM]

After managing to crack FE10's terrain data, I thought I'd try my hand with the Buddy Support data.

I'm not completely sure, but I think I've found something that resembles it. However, since I can't actually play the game, I need people to check if the data is reasonable.

Ike's "supports"

Unknown value - Support type(?) - Characters

FF 00 Nasir

FF 01 Kurthnaga, Soren, Ranulf, Rafiel, Leanne

FF 02 Elincia, Reyson, Lethe

00 00 Mist

00 01 Oscar, Rhys, Sothe, Geoffrey, Stefan, Titania, Tibarn, Volke, Boyd

00 02 Everyone else

00 03 Shinon

Micaiah's "supports"

Unknown value - Support type(?) - Characters

FF 00 Sothe, Rafiel

FF 01 Volug, Kurthnaga, Nailah, Pelleas

00 01 Ilyana, Edward, Sanaki, Jill, Stefan, Tauroneo, Nolan, Vika, Fiona, Meg, Leonardo, Laura

00 02 Everyone else

If anyone has any character suggestions, feel free to share them. I don't think like listing every single character until I'm sure I've found the right thing : P

Just a reminder: Support points are gained by participating in the same chapter as, staying adjacent to, rescuing, healing and shoving another character.

EDIT

Finalised preliminary list: Link here (I'm sure it must be contradictory...)

Edited July 24, 2009 by VincentASM

[Narga_Rocks]

After managing to crack FE10's terrain data, I thought I'd try my hand with the Buddy Support data.

I'm not completely sure, but I think I've found something that resembles it. However, since I can't actually play the game, I need people to check if the data is reasonable.

Ike's "supports"

Unknown value - Support type(?) - Characters

FF 00 Nasir

FF 01 Kurthnaga, Soren, Ranulf, Rafiel, Leanne

FF 02 Elincia, Reyson, Lethe

00 00 Mist

00 01 Oscar, Rhys, Sothe, Geoffrey, Stefan, Titania, Tibarn, Volke, Boyd

00 02 Everyone else

00 03 Shinon

seems reasonable. Ike and Shinon just don't get along, and Mist is his sister, so she should be easier to support and shinon should be harder. I don't quite get why stefan would be in the same group as the others he's in, because the rest of the people make some sense for why it's easier to support with him. Also, Soren and Ranulf are his buddies, but I don't understand Lethe and Leanne and Rafiel being so high, but maybe he just likes cats and herons, and he does have a Lethe support option in PoR.

Micaiah's "supports"

Unknown value - Support type(?) - Characters

FF 00 Sothe, Rafiel

FF 01 Volug, Kurthnaga, Nailah, Pelleas

00 01 Ilyana, Edward, Sanaki, Jill, Stefan, Tauroneo, Nolan, Vika, Fiona, Meg, Leonardo, Laura

00 02 Everyone else

Makes sense. The 00 01 section is basically the DB members that she isn't as close to as the others, and lords seem to have a thing for herons in this game. Sanaki makes sense too.

edit:

If anyone has any character suggestions, feel free to share them. I don't think like listing every single character until I'm sure I've found the right thing : P

I suggest Tanith or Sigrun next to confirm. They seem extremely quick to gain C support to each other, so that's another good one to check to see if you are on the right track.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

I've got nothing much to say except that I agree with Narga about SigrunxTanith. So far it seems like you've hit on something, Vincent, because those supports mostly all make sense story-line wise.

[Narga_Rocks]

I've got nothing much to say except that I agree with Narga about SigrunxTanith. So far it seems like you've hit on something, Vincent, because those supports mostly all make sense story-line wise.

I'm actually disappointed that Mia falls into "everyone else". No wonder I had such trouble getting them to C.

I'm curious about Ilyana and Calill, too. I have no storyline explanation, but they seemed to reach B then A rather quickly after I got them to C. There was a bit of healing and shoving, and I know that accelerates it, but I didn't think I did enough to go from C to A in 2 chapters.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

I looked carefully, but I couldn't see anything special about Ilyana and Calill. I heard supports are easier to gain if you transferred a Bond support from FE9, but Ilyana and Calill don't even support in that game, right?

Maybe the accelation by doing additional actions is actually quite significant?

In any case, I added three more lists:

*Removed*

Edited July 24, 2009 by VincentASM

[-Cynthia-]

I know healing has a huge effect on supports, Laura/Rhys/Mist always reach higher levels than anyone else. Rescuing also does quite a lot(it almost always jumps an entire level), don't know how much difference shoving makes.

Edited July 22, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[cheetah7071]

If I had to guess given the information present, I'd say the first value (00 or FF) indicates how close they start to a C rank, whereas the second one (00-03) indicates how fast it grows.

[Progenitus]

If I had to guess given the information present, I'd say the first value (00 or FF) indicates how close they start to a C rank, whereas the second one (00-03) indicates how fast it grows.

Makes sense, though it doesn't tell us exactly how fast supports grow, or how close to a C you start at. At least not yet.

But this is still a lot better than nothing. Good work.

[Narga_Rocks]

I looked carefully, but I couldn't see anything special about Ilyana and Calill. I heard supports are easier to gain if you transferred a Bond support from FE9, but Ilyana and Calill don't even support in that game, right?

Maybe the accelation by doing additional actions is actually quite significant?

In any case, I added three more lists:

Calill

FF 01 Tormod, Nephenee

FF 02 Geoffrey

FF 03 Heather

00 01 Elincia, Brom, Haar, Marcia, Meg, Lucia

00 02 Everyone else

Ilyana

FF 01 Micaiah, Lucia

FF 02 Zihark, Mordecai, Mia

00 02 Everyone else

A couple of shoves and one heal and a few turns next to each other must do more than I thought. I just remember joining Ike and Mia at the hip for a fair amount of 3-P and 3-1 and they still didn't hit C by 3-2. Ilyana and Calill pulled C by the 4-2 base, nothing strange, but then B in the 4-5 base and A by the 4-E-1 base. I think shoving and healing do more than staying next to each other, anyway, if MiaxIke are 00 02 and so are CalillxIlyana but they acted differently.

Or maybe it takes more to reach C without pre-existing bonuses than it does to get from C to B or B to A.

Sigrun

FF 00 Tanith

FF 02 Skrimir, Haar

00 00 Sanaki

00 01 Astrid, Titania, Marcia

00 02 Everyone else

If I had to guess given the information present, I'd say the first value (00 or FF) indicates how close they start to a C rank, whereas the second one (00-03) indicates how fast it grows.

I might disagree. I'm not sure. I thought my Tanith and Sigrun hit B pretty quick too, but I don't remember for sure. If FF 00 to FF 02 only relates to pre-existing points and 00 00 to 00 03 relates to speed of growth, then I'd have to be remembering wrongly. Which is completely possible. But each of the characters thus far doesn't have any units with their name in both sections, so if this guess is correct it would mean nobody with pre-existing points also gets accelerated growth.

Unless you meant in the FF 00 the FF refers to pre-existing points and 00 relates to speed. But then that would mean that everyone with pre-existing points with anyone would have the exact same amount of pre-existing points (since they all say FF). Which is also entirely possible. Nobody ever accused IS of doing things the more in depth complicated way. This would line up with the whole doing it the easy way thing.

Anyway, if you meant the second thing I said, then I have to agree that this is the most likely thing for them to have done, simply because it seems consistent with what we know of IS.

Testing:

this makes me wish I had a 3-P save.

Assumptions I would test with (all of these assumptions could easily be incorrect and the only way to find out would be finding a contradiction, but testing must start with some assumptions anyway):

a point system to reach a certain level for C, B, and A.

Every pairing has the same number of points for C, B, and A.

FF ##

FF ## means there is a certain number of pre-existing points from the beginning and it is always the same. 00 ## means there is none.

FF only boosts for getting to C, and isn't added again after reaching C as a bonus to B, or after getting B as a bonus to A.

## is an indication of some kind of boost for points. It might be a flat boost per chapter. (could easily boost on a per action basis, but for now assuming it doesn't)

## does not affect how many extra points shoving or healing or rescuing or ending a turn next to another unit or anything else gives. (could easily be wrong)

Canceling a support cuts all points to 0, and even if it is an FF pairing there is no longer bonus points to get back to C.

There is no difference for building supports between EM, NM, and HM. (Can be tested after getting numbers for NM)

Steps:

Look at Mia and Ike, a 00 02 pairing.

Keep them 4 squares apart at all times, and take >50 turns to clear 3-P. Confirm no support to hopefully confirm no points are given for turns where the characters aren't even close.

Have them next to each other on all turns doing nothing else, no shoving, rescuing, etc. Battle Save and count up turns until support is achieved. Do the same thing with Ike's FF 01 pairing (Soren), and Mist and a 00 01 pairing (say Boyd) and his 00 03 pairing and compare the number of turns.

Don't let IkexMia or IkexSoren or IkexMist or IkexBoyd or IkexShinon get to C during 3-P. Attempt to not get C during 3-1 with any of them if possible then reload and get C (hopefully 12 turns is enough) to see what the being in the same chapter boost gives for each type. Attempt to calculate a number of points that ending a turn next to another unit gives and what FF is worth.

Throw in a number of other things and attempt to calculate how many points each thing gives to boost support. Including seeing if standing 3 squares away boosts support points at all.

It might be possible to test some things with Meg in 1-4 since she shows up there first and there is no turn limit on 1-4, but 1-5 is 6 turns long unless I test on Easy so it might limit the testing. Plus Meg might not have the same variety as Ike. Likely she'll just have a FF 01 with Brom and a 00 01 with Zihark and a 00 02 with everyone else. Or something like that. Not as much information can be gleaned from her.

Since I'd have to start from the beginning(all my saves are 4-E-5 or saves to see turncounts and kill lists and one clear file), what is Meg's list so I can see if it might be worth taking a shot at it with her? Well, I guess I could play with Ilyana, but of the units in 1-3 all she's got are an FF 01 and the rest are 00 02s. Can't really make any conclusions at all with those options.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

Now that we're a bit more sure, I'll try and list every character. It'll take a short while though.

In any case, those tests sound good. If you'd like data for some characters, I could get them for you - I'm currently doing the characters by internal (Japanese alphabetic, it seems) order.

*Removed*

Edited July 24, 2009 by VincentASM

[Interceptor]

Some of those are pretty funny. Edward and Rolf? Leonardo and Oscar? Boggle. And some make perfect sense, but never occured to me before, like Meg and Nephenee or Oliver and Danved.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oliver

FF 03 Danved

00 04 Ulki, Tanith, Tibarn, Tormod, Nealuchi, Nailah, Naesala, Muarim, Janaff, Reyson, Lethe (I assume this means he's really unpopular?)

Storyline, yep. If 00 02 is basically neutral, then Oliver (mostly) supports another theory. (but sadly makes another one questionable or at least more complex)

Meg

FF 00 Brom

FF 01 Nephenee

FF 02 Jill, Zihark, Aran

00 01 Calill, Heather, Micaiah, Laura

I'm assuming that for all these characters 00 02 is everyone not listed.

Meg could actually be pretty useful then, though not as much as Ike. She has a FF 02 and a 00 01 and a 00 02 in her first chapter, which should be all that's needed for determining some things. I'd like her to have had access to a FF 01 in 1-4 as well, but I guess I can't have everything. Ike doesn't have access to two FF's in 3-P anyway.

Oh, and Int, my theory is that 00 03 and 00 04 is not a good thing, since "everyone else" is always 00 02.

Which makes Ena and Soren rather funny. What's he got against her? He doesn't like Kurth either so I guess he doesn't like dragons much

(self hate?)

. The trouble with one of the theories mentioned, though, is FF 03 should then theoretically mean that Oliver and Danved start closer to C, but with a 03 it means it grows slower than anything else, which almost sounds like a contradiction, so sadly this likely isn't so simple as I would've liked.

FF 03 can't possibly be bad like 00 03 is, though, because I don't think Kyza dislikes Ranulf, and Gatrie had a crush on Lyre.

Again, more complex than I'd hoped.

[VincentASM]

I get the impression Lyre has a crush on Ranulf. Perhaps Kyza is feeling jealous? : P

Also, the supports are both ways, so maybe one of the characters is less open to the other, eg. Lyre might not like Gatrie as much as he likes her.

Some more characters:

*Removed*

Edited July 24, 2009 by VincentASM

[Aether7]

The trouble with one of the theories mentioned, though, is FF 03 should then theoretically mean that Oliver and Danved start closer to C, but with a 03 it means it grows slower than anything else, which almost sounds like a contradiction, so sadly this likely isn't so simple as I would've liked.

This makes sense for Oliver and Danved, as Danved was one of Oliver's men in PoR before switching sides. So it means they have some history together but still don't like each other much.

[Interceptor]

Soren and Leonardo? Is there something about Leo that we don't know? O.o

[Narga_Rocks]

This makes sense for Oliver and Danved, as Danved was one of Oliver's men in PoR before switching sides. So it means they have some history together but still don't like each other much.

You know, that could actually work. I never thought of it that way. Some history should make them closer to C, but since Devdan probably didn't like him much Danved then might act like FF 03.

Kyza and Ranulf have history as well, but if Vincent is right then your theory plus Vincent's could explain the FF 03. I never paid much attention to the three of them in the game so I wouldn't know.

Lyre and Gatrie still doesn't make sense to me. The 03 could be explained by her feeling "ick" about Gatrie's crush, but the FF doesn't make sense then. Maybe she's a bit flattered but still kinda creeped out or something?

And Soren definitely has major

self hate

issues. But what's with his dislike of Shinon? 00 04 is worse than IkexShinon. Maybe Soren is that protective of Ike or something. It's actually a little surprising that Soren can't pull off an FF 00 with Ike, though. Danved and Fiona somehow manage to pull it off.

Looking at all the FF's and 00 01's is actually kind of fun. Seeing characters we didn't think would have any attachments actually having attachments. I find the 00 03 and 00 04's to be the most fun to look at, though. Something about who dislikes whom is just fun.

This would create one massive article. All the starting points and who has quicker growths with whom and all that, plus whatever other data can be determined.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Aether7]

Lyre and Gatrie still doesn't make sense to me. The 03 could be explained by her feeling "ick" about Gatrie's crush, but the FF doesn't make sense then. Maybe she's a bit flattered but still kinda creeped out or something?

This might be just a tough relationship. Gatrie likes Lyre... wasn't that conversation in PoR too? But she doesn't return his feelings, so he can only get so far with her.

It's actually a little surprising that Soren can't pull off an FF 00 with Ike, though. Danved and Fiona somehow manage to pull it off.

Danved and Fiona is an interesting one. Must be some relationship there but its hard to tell due to the lack of support conversations. As to how they can pull off FF 00 but not Ike and Soren, I imagine the amount of play time they have together may be a factor.

Looking at all the FF's and 00 01's is actually kind of fun. Seeing characters we didn't think would have any attachments actually having attachments. I find the 00 03 and 00 04's to be the most fun to look at, though. Something about who dislikes whom is just fun.

Yea, this is good stuff!

[Narga_Rocks]

Danved and Fiona is an interesting one. Must be some relationship there but its hard to tell due to the lack of support conversations. As to how they can pull off FF 00 but not Ike and Soren, I imagine the amount of play time they have together may be a factor.

I think I'm going to have to go with this. It's likely that strong pairs that don't have much playtime get a better boost than they would've had if they'd been playable together for more chapters.

And it's too bad they don't have any conversations. And I looked through Fiona's and Danved's support conversation list and there isn't anything unique in the case that they pair up. Just the generic stuff. Really a shame they cheaped out on things. They could've at least made unique conversations for all the FF 00 and 00 00 ones. I understand using generic stuff for the 00 02's, but I wish all the other ones weren't, actually.

It would be funny for the 00 03 and 00 04 to see those conversations. "I hate you, but let's team up anyway."

[Interceptor]

Read some of Oliver's convos. They are goddamn hilarious. Both sides, too, like this one from Sothe:

"Stick with me, Duke Tanas. I'll protect you--that is--if I can muster up the will. Really...try not to die. Some say that we need you."

Also, Mist supporting Tibarn.

[Narga_Rocks]

Read some of Oliver's convos. They are goddamn hilarious. Both sides, too, like this one from Sothe:

"Stick with me, Duke Tanas. I'll protect you--that is--if I can muster up the will. Really...try not to die. Some say that we need you."

Also, Mist supporting Tibarn.

I read many of the Oliver ones before, and some of them are quite funny, though why Micaiah would want to model for him is beyond me.

Mist's C support with Tibarn is amusing, and her A is interesting, but I'm not as amused by it as the Oliver ones.

The Sothe one is a perfect example of what I'd expect from a 00 04 conversation, unfortunately Sothe appears to be a 00 02.

And apparently Kieran doesn't much like the brothers of Oscar. Does he blame them for taking his rival away from the army?

Edited July 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

A few more:

*Removed*

I'd look into automating this, if only my programming knowledge was a bit better (I have no clue how I'd work with FE10's pointers, but at least they're not reversed like in the handheld games).

Edited July 24, 2009 by VincentASM

[Interceptor]

I think it's kind of amusing that Nolan has a favored support with Nephenee, of all people, the only one outside of the DB to afford such an honor.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think it's kind of amusing that Nolan has a favored support with Nephenee, of all people, the only one outside of the DB to afford such an honor.

When I first read that I was about to say that even Nolan likes Nephenee more than Aran, but then I looked and saw that Neph has FF 02 and Aran has 00 01. So it's arguable which one he likes more.

I'm about to start 1-3 on NM so I'm not too far away from some Meg testing in 1-4. Just have to figure out how to keep her 4 squares away from Aran, Micaiah/Laura, and one other member at all times for the control test. (Not both Micaiah and Laura, just one of. Also have to decide which other member.)

Edited July 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[VincentASM]

Done every character now. You can find them all on this page. I also fixed one or two mistakes.

[Florete]

This is pretty awesome. Are we ever going to find out what these numbers and F's mean?