FE9 Tier List v2

[Vykan12]

We can obviously position it so Soren will only be in range of X number of enemies, we can't really expose Rolf to any enemies.

Rolf beats Soren in concrete durability, so you obviously can expose him to enemies. The outcome just isn't favorable (an uninjured enemy). Though, if the enemy had 1-2 range, it probably would've gone uncountered anyway. Not countering =/= the end of the world, especially if it's 1 enemy.

[-Cynthia-]

Right, my bad...but being dependant on 20 use forges is NOT a good thing. Using them as an advantage is fine but...Lucia pretty much needs them to function.

True, but Rolf needs them pretty badly before Lucia shows up, (possibly 3 total), so I'll call it even. Although if we give Lucia a forge in the last 6 chapters and don't give Rolf any, someone would undeniably call favoritism on me. Because when I give Lucia and Rolf forges in the chapters they share I get "ZOMG Lucia's forge dependent!" , but Rolf getting 2-3 forge before Lucia shows up is no big deal. One of the double standards I was talking about.

Note that if we would give Lucia and silver forge and Rolf a plain Silver Bow, Rolf would have to be 20/14 to be beating base Lucia in Atk.

The thing is that Soren can rarely take more than two enemies: so exposing him is very rarely a good idea, hence the logic that he might as well not have an enemy phase.

Soren's lack of durability(and thus lack of enemy phase) does count against him, otherwise he would be higher. It's just that exposing Soren to 1-2 enemies isn;t necessarily a bad thing, as he can kill them, while exposing Rolf to any 1(or 1-2 usually) enemy hurts efficiency, which is worse than Soren killing them obviously.

16 Lucia?! Now who's overestimating levels?

It's for the end of Ch26, when we get the Runesword, which is 1.3 levels per chapter(more reasonable than 2 IMO). She actually loses the same amount at --/15 given band usage.

No, it isn't, because many people give her bonuses she wants just as bad [full DEF] much earlier.

Like dondon showed with Soren, mages appreciate Avo. Also, we aren't necessarily fielding Mordy/Zihark (or they might be full, both have other options) and Mia and Gatrie have a relatively low chance to be fielded.

You're just digging yourself into a hole here: Janaff is awful. Does being in low tier not tell you anything?

Well it just doesn't make sense to me to say "Rolf isn't a detriment". Then Vykan agrees with me on "promoted Rolf < Janaff". But somehow fielding Janaff is a detriment? It doesn't follow logic.

Janaff's 2RKOing stuff. And that's WHEN he's transformed.

Rolf can actually 1RKO a majority of things, and that's the whole time.

And Janaff can fly, is more durable, has more Mov, has an enemy phase etc. I don't think you're going to pull off Rolf being significantly better than Janaff, unless the only thing of value anymore is Player Phase offense.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

Like dondon showed with Soren, mages appreciate Avo. Also, we aren't necessarily fielding Mordy/Zihark (or they might be full, both have other options) and Mia and Gatrie have a relatively low chance to be fielded.

Zihark I can understand, but I can only think of Mist and Stefan as viable for Mordy over Ilyana, and Ilyana > Stefan for Mordy. The Stefan support starts later and gives worse bonuses.

[-Cynthia-]

Zihark I can understand, but I can only think of Mist and Stefan as viable for Mordy over Ilyana, and Ilyana > Stefan for Mordy. The Stefan support starts later and gives worse bonuses.

True enough I guess, though Lucia only needs a slot open, not both slots. So if Ilyana takes 'A' Mordy, Lucia can get a B. It's not as great as A Janaff obviously, but it gives her a pretty significant boost.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Final chapter

Ike- 18

Mist- 17.41

Marcia- 17.81

Tanith- 16.5

Jill- 17.58

Astrid- 20

Oscar- 14.16

Kieran- 13

Geoffrey- 20

Makalov- 12.95

Titania- 16.82

Haar- 16

Average- 16.68

Ok, a little lower than I remembered. Still, with 12 units and only 3 pre-promotes in my group, thats not bad, especially for an efficient run.

Total turn count: 285

Chapter turn count average: 8.63

BEXP turn limit average: 9

Note that I took 18 turns for chapter 9 and 29 for chapter 10, so that hurt my average considerably. Without it, my average falls to 7.67.

Top 5

5. Titania - 110 wins

4. Jill- 116 wins

3. Ike- 127 wins

2. Oscar- 130 wins

1. Marcia- 135 wins

===

Anyway, back to the main point. Cynthia insisted Rolf was never good, I conjured a situation where Rolf is ORKOing as well as anyone else you could have in play. If we drop his level 2 points, he loses 0.8 str, but he can regain that through a Rhys support.

Also, it seems nobody's going to address this.

Then Vykan agrees with me on "promoted Rolf < Janaff".

When did I say that? I haven’t really compared Rolf to the hawks at all, you’re the one who keeps going Rolf is ~= to Ulki. If you can find the post where you substantiated that claim, I would most certainly like to see it.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

You didn't give Brom/Devdan/Gatrie any KW uses for one thing. usually when they're being argued, we give them at least some access. Often this means they'll have enough AS to double, which means they'll hit harder than Rolf with more durability as enemy phase action in return for maybe 1 less Mov in Gatrie/Brom's cases. Brom's supports are also much better, for what that's worth.

Tanith has a lot of other advantages, flight/mov/canto/reinforce etc. Add all those up + better supports(more durability once they kick in), + better offense on enemy phase and slightly better on player phase, and I don't even know why we would compare the two.

I also think Rolf is overleveled IMO. I find it hard to stomach that Rolf and Brom are promoting at the same time, considering Brom is higher starting level and better at combat. Brom can at least KO on a combination player/enemy phase, Rolf is KOIng in like 3 player phases, maybe 2.

In the post you link to you basically say that Janaff is better or about equal to Rolf. Rolf has a few advantages(so does Janaff), but Rolf definitely isn't beating him soundly or whatever. It seem rather silly to call Janaff detrimental and Rolf not when they're pretty similar after Rolf promotes.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Weird, I don't recall Rolf having a weakness to wind magic, arrow weapons (and wouldn't ya know it, the future is choke-full of ballistae), AND laguz weapons.

Speaking of weapons though, laguz got it bad. Their weapons are like swords except worse. You can't get stronger ones, they have absolutely NO range, and the transformation deal doesn't help. 1 range is barely better than 2 range, and at times may even be worse (though that's more a case for Mia than Janaff). However, laguz are units that can't afford to take range counters. Not only can they never retaliate, but they untransform that much faster.

With Janaff, the question is "Is 1 range some of the time really better than 2 range all the time?". I vouch no, especially since Rolf is actually capable of killing things on his attacks. On top of it, the supports he have are not only semi-available, they don't royally blow either.

[Vykan12]

You didn't give Brom/Devdan/Gatrie any KW uses for one thing.

Yes I did. Look at the + sign besides their AS values. I guess I couldve listed ranges instead, but wtv.

Tanith has a lot of other advantages, flight/mov/canto/reinforce etc.

Shes also in top tier (or should be, shes easily better than Ike IMO). The fact that she only beats Rolf in non-combat paramaters should be indicative of how good (or decent or whatever moderately positive adjective you want to use) he is post-promo.

I also think Rolf is overleveled IMO.

FFS, I specifically said Here, lets check out Rolf against some other units at similar levels post promotion. This implies were favoring Rolf to the point where his level has caught up with other team members, at which point we compare him to some random units.

In the post you link to you basically say that Janaff is better or about equal to Rolf.

Again, I did no such thing.

This Of course, Rolf is obviously worse than all of these units because of his lack of enemy phase. was a sarcastic comment. Maybe I shouldve put a facepalm smilie at the end of it or something.

He crushes Tormod in every paramater except movement (loses by 1), and staves dont really cover the gap, especially since apparently our army is so durable that Elincia and Mist have nothing better to do than to heal Lucia. As for Mia, they about tie in offence before considering Rolf's other bow options, though she does have some potential enemy phase to compensate. What really sets Rolf apart though is his durability. Not only does he beat her concretely, he's also avoiding counters most of the time whereas Mia's forced to take them in order to fight. As I mentioned earlier, lance users can still manage >50 hit on her even after supports, and unless I'm mistaken she's being 2-4HKOed. Gatrie's AS isn't really salvagable even with the KW. The other cases are borderline, but then being comparable to an upper-mid unit isn't half bad.

It seem rather silly to call Janaff detrimental and Rolf not when they're pretty similar after Rolf promotes.

I wouldnt really call Janaff detrimental. His movement and durability are always good. Its his offence and transform issues that cause him to be ranked so low. Though 2RKOing isnt so bad, he can still set up other units for kills or stay behind and take on reinforcements to find some semblance of usefulness.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Yes I did. Look at the + sign besides their AS values. I guess I could’ve listed ranges instead, but wtv.

Yes, but later on you go on to say things like "Rolf has more AS". If they have the same AS as Rolf, they're outperforming him in like very parameter except for 1 Mov in Brom/Gatrie's cases.

She’s also in top tier (or should be, she’s easily better than Ike IMO). The fact that she only beats Rolf in non-combat paramaters should be indicative of how good (or decent or whatever moderately positive adjective you want to use) he is post-promo.

Sort of. There's a big difference between Tanith doing what she does at 1 range (or 1-2 range) and what Rolf does at 2 range.

FFS, I specifically said Here, let’s check out Rolf against some other units at similar levels post promotion. This implies we’re favoring Rolf to the point where his level has caught up with other team members, at which point we compare him to some random units.

I don't really get the point of such a comparison though. I mean yeah, with enough favoritism Rolf is decent, but it just doesn't seem fair to give Rolf lots of favoritism and the character he's comparing to nothing. I guess that's just me though.

He crushes Tormod in every paramater except movement (loses by 1), and staves don’t really cover the gap, especially since apparently our army is so durable that Elincia and Mist have nothing better to do than to heal Lucia. As for Mia, they about tie in offence before considering Rolf's other bow options, though she does have some potential enemy phase to compensate. What really sets Rolf apart though is his durability. Not only does he beat her concretely, he's also avoiding counters most of the time whereas Mia's forced to take them in order to fight. As I mentioned earlier, lance users can still manage >50 hit on her even after supports, and unless I'm mistaken she's being 2-4HKOed.

Mia isn't being 2HKod very often. And like all the other comparisons, it's just unrealistic. Mia starts off with a 5 level lead 2 chapters earlier, which means she's probably 3-5 chapters ahead. I'm not seeing why we're discussing 20/1 Rolf in Ch18 when it just isn't going to happen sans favoritism.

Also, I'm not really aeeing how Rolf's bow monopoly is that great, especially compared to people locked to swords, mainly because there aren't that many sword users in the game. Sure, there's some compeititon, but that doesn't mean Kller/Brave/Laguzslayer access etc. is impossible, especially w/trading. Another thing that hasn't been brought up, SM's can hit Cavs and Generals for effective dmg with the Longsword/Armorslayer, Rolf doesn't get bow equivalents.

Whoops I did overlook Tormod, mainly because he's like a late joining Rolf that turns out better.

Gatrie's AS isn't really salvagable even with the KW. The other cases are borderline, but then being comparable to an upper-mid unit isn't half bad.

They're all in Lower Mid, and Gatrie's AS is sort of salvagable, mainly because enemies are just really slow overall. For example, Gatrie only needs 14 AS to double 19/26 foes on Ch18. A 20/3 Gatrie with only half his levelups from the KW can reach this, obviously more KW access= more doubling. It helps that when Gatrie doubles he almost always kills, which is nice on Generals and such that people have issues ORKOing. Even without the KW he can ORKO Generals and can OHKO Sages/Bishops, so it isn't even that bad then.

I wouldn’t really call Janaff detrimental. His movement and durability are always good. It’s his offence and transform issues that cause him to be ranked so low. Though 2RKOing isn’t so bad, he can still set up other units for kills or stay behind and take on reinforcements to find some semblance of usefulness.

I agree. Which brings up the question of how we can auto-deny Lucia a Janaff support in every situation, because I think we both agree that fielding Janaff really isn't so horrible in terms of efficiency. We can't pull a "slots are filled" argument here because Oscar has better options sooner and Shinon's pretty unlikely to be fielded.

Anyoen oppose Elincia>Nasir?

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Which brings up the question of how we can auto-deny Lucia a Janaff support in every situation

He's in LOW tier. Figure it out yourself.

Or move Janaff up to a respectable level before Lucia can even consider that support.

I don't think you're going to pull off Rolf being significantly better than Janaff, unless the only thing of value anymore is Player Phase offense.

See, this is why it helps to consider what I'm actually arguing with my points instead of saying "oh lol Volke fails at combat, not a valid comparision"

Having a good player phase and no enemy phase beats the living hell out of sucking both phases. Not only does Janaff suck on both phases due to bad offense, he also has to deal with gauge and when that runs out, he's ten times more useless than Rolf is. And before you even start with me on Janaff leaving a bunch of weakened enemies around: Who really cares? The easy mode button got pushed a long way back and you're seriously doing something wrong if Janaff weakening a bunch of guys helped you kill said guys any faster at all. i.e Janaff hits something for, fuck, I don't even care to look up statsitics so I'm just going to use random math: 13x2 on an enemy with 34 HP. Does that really matter when Ike was already hitting it for 20x2?

Edited July 31, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Vykan12]

Yes, but later on you go on to say things like "Rolf has more AS".

That’s because he has more even after giving the generals full KW usage. Gatrie had 10 AS at 20/1 and he starts at lv 9/0, so the most AS he can hope to gain is 3. 18 still doubles a lot more than 13 last time I checked.

I don't really get the point of such a comparison though. I mean yeah, with enough favoritism Rolf is decent, but it just doesn't seem fair to give Rolf lots of favoritism and the character he's comparing to nothing. I guess that's just me though.

It’s because we already know Rolf’s worse than all those characters because he needed the favoritism to get there. If we offered those units favoritism at well, it would defeat the purpose of showing that Rolf can catch up with x amount of favoritism.

Also, I'm not really aeeing how Rolf's bow monopoly is that great, especially compared to people locked to swords, mainly because there aren't that many sword users in the game. Sure, there's some compeititon, but that doesn't mean Kller/Brave/Laguzslayer access etc. is impossible, especially w/trading.

There’s a huge difference between having 0 competition and having to share resources with 3-5+ units. There’s also more bows for Rolf to use than there are swords. There’s only 1 killing edge to match 3 killer bows, and even if you add the VK it’s still less. There are also only 2 laguzslayers to 3 laguz bows.

Anyway, the point is more directed at Rolf’s killing competence post-promo than it is how he compares to Lucia directly.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up, SM's can hit Cavs and Generals for effective dmg with the Longsword/Armorslayer, Rolf doesn't get bow equivalents.

Unfortunately those weapons kind of suck. The longsword only has 12 effective Mt, whereas a steel blade has 11. The armorslayer gives 16, which isn’t bad, but it’s still only 3 more than a silver sword, or 2 less than a silver forge.

Whoops I did overlook Tormod, mainly because he's like a late joining Rolf that turns out better.

How does he turn out better? His concrete durability always blows. 40 hp/14 def at max level? Largo has better durability at base level. He also trails Rolf in AS. Even if they tie in level at 20/1, Rolf has a .65 advantage and a 5% growth advantage. Though you’ll be the first one to tell me that he’s level 10 in chapter 16, so that’s never going to happen until lategame even with staves considered.

This is what we’re getting from a unit in lower-mid btw. Even if we said Rolf = Tormod – staves and dropped him a tier, that would still put him in low.

Gatrie's AS is sort of salvagable, mainly because enemies are just really slow overall.

The question is, when does he start doubling consistently? The slowest non-general enemies in 18 have 9+ AS, so even our freshly promoted Gatrie with full KW usage is doubling just about nothing.

I agree. Which brings up the question of how we can auto-deny Lucia a Janaff support in every situation, because I think we both agree that fielding Janaff really isn't so horrible in terms of efficiency.

But then look at this from another angle: if Janaff isn’t detrimental in 18, how is Rolf? They have pretty identical offensive paramaters.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Vykan12

[Shadow Mir]

Unfortunately those weapons kind of suck. The longsword only has 12 effective Mt, whereas a steel blade has 11. The armorslayer gives 16, which isn’t bad, but it’s still only 3 more than a silver sword, or 2 less than a silver forge.

Actually... When WTD is considered, Longswords only have 10 effective Mt and Armorslayers have 14 effective Mt.

[-Cynthia-]

Janaff is like 10x more durable than Volke though Part of why Volke's combat sucks is his durability blows, Janaff doesn't have this problem. Even moreso than when Lucia isn't in play, Janaff is getting like 7RKOed and other ridiculousness at rather low hit rates with a support. Sure 2RKOing is worse than ORKoing, but not everyone is ORKOing all the time, Rolf ORKOes like half the time for example and on beefy enemies like Generals very few people are ORKOing.

Take this situation for example:

3 enemies are in range of Rolf/Janaff. 2 have 1 range weapons, one has 1-2 range.

Rolf kills a 1 range guy on the player phase, Janaff hurts the 1-2 range guy on the player phase (if it's a sage he's dead)

On the enemy phase, Rolf gets attacked by the 1-2 range and 1 range guy and deals no damage. Janaff deals over half the HP of both the 1 range guys(or kills them, depends on how fail they are or if he's Demi Banded or not).

Next player phase comes up, Rolf kills another guy (I'm being fairly generous here, there's a lot of stuff Rolf doesn't ORKO), Janaff kills the 1-2 range guy.

Janaff kills the remaining 1 range guys on the enemy phase. Rolf still has a guy left. Who did better? Janaff.

You might say this situation is unrealistic, but it isn't really. Janaff can get a lot more exposure due to high Mov+ flight. We could argue that Rolf won't be seeing any enemy phase, but that means we have to specifically align our units so Rolf isn't in enemy range, which is another hindrance.

I'm just countering the point said before that Lucia's supports being in play is highly detrimental. However if fielding Janaff isn't actually a detriment, then Janaff being in play shouldn't really be a cause for concern. And if we put Janaff in play, the comparison of Rolf vs. Lucia changes. Lucia is arguably more durable once it gets to B/C, and thus can utilize her enemy phase offense.

I would say Rolf isn't detrimental post-promotion (he's not really a positive either though IMO, more of a neutral). Of course then the question is when is he promoting?

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

However if fielding Janaff isn't actually a detriment, then Janaff being in play shouldn't really be a cause for concern

If fielding Janaff was anything but a detriment, what the hell is he doing in Low?

Move him up or it won't be considered.

[-Cynthia-]

If fielding Janaff was anything but a detriment, what the hell is he doing in Low?

Move him up or it won't be considered.

I'll spell this out for you again, since you didn't seem to get it the first few times.

Post-promo Rolf is not a detriment, according to you. Rolf is roughly = to Janaff. Thus Janaff is not a detriment. Vykan agrees on the not-detrimental part.

I'm not really seeing what Janaff being in Low tier has to do with this, since Rolf is in Low as well (and lower there to boot), yet he isn't detrimental according to you. I'm not seeing what makes post promo Rolf hugely better than Janaff to the point where Rolf is beneficial, yet Janaff isn't.

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

I'll spell this out for you again, since you didn't seem to get it the first few times.

I'll spell THIS out for you since you didn't seem to get it the first 10 times: Janaff is in low tier. What does this tell you about how good he is as a unit? You really think we're using this putz often? If he's not in play, Lucia doesn't get the support.

You argue Janaff up, he gets played more often, and Lucia gets her support.

[Vykan12]

Part of why Volke's combat sucks is his durability blows, Janaff doesn't have this problem.

PBW brought up Janaff’s triple weakness (bows/wind/laguzslayers), though otherwise I agree about his durability, hence why I said exactly that in an earlier post. Were you addressing Norton/B2B/wtvthehellyou’recallednow?

Take this situation for example:

You don’t want someone like Janaff having an overactive enemy phase though, since he’ll be distracting enemies from the people you do want to be taking counters (eg/ Jill, Kieran, Boyd). If we’re trying to optimize Janaff’s use, he’s finishing off kills/setting up kills for others, ferrying, and whatever other secondary tasks we can relegate to him.

You might say this situation is unrealistic, but it isn't really. Janaff can get a lot more exposure due to high Mov+ flight.

Flight is cool, but without a demi-band his movement only averages to about 8 or so. He also has to avoid enemies vigorously while reverted, otherwise he’s wasting precious enemy phase efficiency. Then there’s ballistae that will hold him back if he isn’t carrying the FG.

We could argue that Rolf won't be seeing any enemy phase, but that means we have to specifically align our units so Rolf isn't in enemy range, which is another hindrance.

If we have to form a wall to protect people like Soren and Rhys, it takes little effort to extent that wall for Rolf’s protection, especially on a mount heavy team.

I would say Rolf isn't detrimental post-promotion (he's not really a positive either though IMO, more of a neutral). Of course then the question is when is he promoting?

Favor Rolf until he catches up level-wise (if it’s a gradual process, so be it), then he can be nonnegative for the remainder of the game. That’s the best I can think of using Rolf in the context of a tier comparison. If anyone has better ideas, feel free to pitch them.

My point being, we can get Rolf promoted by 18 if we want to, the variable in question is how many resources he’ll need to get there. Evidently it’s going to be high enough to tank his position pretty badly, but that’s to be expected.

How about I just move Rolf to top of bottom and call it a compromise? If more people agree with me later on, we can always move him back up.

************

[b]Once again, does anyone have objections to Elincia > Nasir?[/b]

[-Cynthia-]

I'll be fine with that, I just don't think Rolf and Lucia should be in seperate tiers. I would suggest just deleting Bottom, but Bastian is really terrible.

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

[b]Once again, does anyone have objections to Elincia > Nasir?[/b]

Nope, she could probably go above Ulki, though.

[-Cynthia-]

Nope, she could probably go above Ulki, though.

Ugh, I just realized that Ulki doesn't reach Janaff's base Spd until --/15. This is pretty bad, since while Janaff doubles pretty reliably, he's somewhat borderline, especially with the Demi band equipped. Ulki's going to need a lot of BEXP before he starts doubling even semi reliably and he doesn't often kill even when he doubles so meh. He 2RKOs when he doubles usually, and is in the 3-4RKOing range when he doesn't.

Ulki does have a decent support list, especially for Low tier. Any of his options(with a full A and B) give out +5 Atk and Ulki can often get +2 to +5 Def as well. Mordecai/Brom/Boyd/Rhys are all fairly likely to be in play, so no real issues there. Ulki's late joining does mean they'll probably have to wait a little while, but Ulki's Water bonuses are often worth the wait. Mov differences are a problem though, there's 3 in Brom/Rhys and 2 for Boyd.

Yeah I could see Elincia>Ulki, mainly because Ulki has a good case for being the worst offensive unit in the game. For reference --/11 DemiBand!Ulki has the same AS as a base level Bastian, but 1 less Mt than Bastian with a forged thunder. Except Bastian hits Res(+6 to +12 dmg), has 1-2 range, and can hit for effective damage on stuff.

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Yeah I could see Elincia>Ulki, mainly because Ulki has a good case for being the worst offensive unit in the game. For reference --/11 DemiBand!Ulki has the same AS as a base level Bastian, but 1 less Mt than Bastian with a forged thunder. Except Bastian hits Res(+6 to +12 dmg), has 1-2 range, and can hit for effective damage on stuff.

Hahaha.

Alright, Elincia > Ulki it is.

On another note, shouldn't Ilyana, Calill and Geoffrey all be in the same tier?

Edited August 1, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Probably. There were arguments for Ilyana to drop below Calill but I didn't find them convincing.

[Dat Nick]

Considering Ulki's bad offense, he might actually have a case for being worse than Rolf.

Note that this is attempting to shove Ulki down rather than Rolf up...although an in between could be met if necessary.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[-Cynthia-]

Hahaha.

Alright, Elincia > Ulki it is.

On another note, shouldn't Ilyana, Calill and Geoffrey all be in the same tier?

I honestly think Rhys and Ilyana should both go down to Lower Mid. They're both pretty subpar when it comes to lategame, both have doubling issues and Rhys has a crappy weapon type and poor supports. If we compare them directly to units, they're losing to like everyone through Devdan in a direct comparison(mostly via durability with similar offense).

@Norton We could actually make the case for Ulki being worse than Bastian/Lucia as well tbh. Although to be fair, the dragons in between them aren't offensive dynamos and they have the worst availability in the game, not to mention low Mov.

[CT075]

I honestly think Rhys and Ilyana should both go down to Lower Mid. They're both pretty subpar when it comes to lategame, both have doubling issues and Rhys has a crappy weapon type and poor supports. If we compare them directly to units, they're losing to like everyone through Devdan in a direct comparison(mostly via durability with similar offense).

Rhys I can see happening, but Ilyana at least has decent offense (better than Soren's when both or neither double)for a while, she has insta-Elthunder, and has just enough Str not to be weighed down by everything from Wind to Bolting.

@Norton We could actually make the case for Ulki being worse than Bastian/Lucia as well tbh. Although to be fair, the dragons in between them aren't offensive dynamos and they have the worst availability in the game, not to mention low Mov.

The thing is, Ena helps out with Ashnard in case Ike gets screwed, and both are decent walls for the chapter beforehand. As for Ulki vs. Bastian/Lucia, I could definitely see either Ulki dropping below both of them or those two moving up to above him.