FE9 Tier list v3

[aku chi]

@Adept: I'll give you that Marcia can get the same benefit from Adept that Mia gets but Titania?

Certainly. Titania has similar Skill to Mia and misses a fair number of 2HKOs (especially at range) in C18 and beyond (at least until she can get a Silver Axe forge) - but she can 3HKO most everything.

[Radiant Dragon]

I would think 9 mov + shove utility are more important than Demi Band Muarim's temporary 1-range combat leads over Nephenee.

Except that Muarim's combat leads aren't really 'temporary'. He will always have better move, and he should ORKO everything Nephenee does for a long time regardless. She does have availability and access to 1-2 range and forges though, so it's not exactly cut and dry.

[aku chi]

Except that Muarim's combat leads aren't really 'temporary'. He will always have better move, and he should ORKO everything Nephenee does for a long time regardless.

Actually, I was being generous to Muarim. A 20/1 Nephenee with a Steel Lance forge has ~30 Atk and ~20 AS. Demi Band Muarim has 29 Atk and 17 AS at base. Obviously, Nephenee needs more resources to get to that level of combat, but she can get there pretty soon after Muarim joins. Muarim won't enjoy combat leads over Nephenee for any significant length of time. His value must come from 9 mov and shove/smite utility.

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually, I was being generous to Muarim. A 20/1 Nephenee with a Steel Lance forge has ~30 Atk and ~20 AS. Demi Band Muarim has 29 Atk and 17 AS at base. Obviously, Nephenee needs more resources to get to that level of combat, but she can get there pretty soon after Muarim joins. Muarim won't enjoy combat leads over Nephenee for any significant length of time. His value must come from 9 mov and shove/smite utility.

First off, Muarim will not be at base level when Nephenee promotes. Second, unless her leads are letting ORKO things that Muarim can not, they don't matter. I think 20 AS lets her double some Myrmidons that Muarim misses (I remember them having ~17 or 18AS though, but I don't have time to check right now), but I believe that's it.

Would you mind doing a comparison of 20/2 Nephenee and a Demi'd level 11 Muarim against the enemies in Chapter 18?

Edited August 3, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Soren37]

So if Muarim is used for 9 MOV and Shove/Smite, shouldn't he and Neph switch places? Like you guys said, both of similar combat when both of them start (assuming you've been doing the smart thing with Neph) after you recruit Muarim. Yet Neph has access to more skills, 1-2 range, forges, and her combat isn't limited to waiting a few turns OR using an item that penalizes her stats.

Muarim gets none of those things. Sure his godly stats can make him a terror to behold, but Neph has more room to grow, and could potentially become the better combatant.

[Soren37]

Would you mind doing a comparison of 20/2 Nephenee and a Demi'd level 11 Muarim against the enemies in Chapter 18?

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST! EDIT IS NOT WORKING FOR ME FOR SOME REASON. :/

EDIT: After posting this, it works.

NOTE: If a decimal value is >=0.5, the value is rounded up to the nearest whole number.

20/2 Neph with Steel Lance

HP-34, Atk-26, Hit-125/120/115, AS-21, Avo-57/52/47 Crit-10, Cev-10, DEF-16, RES-9

with Javelin

Atk-22, Hit-115/110/105

11 Muarim with Demi-Band

HP-48, Atk-30, Hit-134/131/126, AS-18, Avo-48/43/38, Crit-8, Cev-12, DEF-15, RES-8

Wyvern Rider lv 14-15 (steel lance)

31 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 95 hit, 21 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

Sword Knight lv 19 (steel sword, vulnerary)

34 hp, 21 atk, 14 AS, 98 hit, 33 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

General lv 1 (laguz lance)

32 hp, 26 atk (38 eff), 2 AS, 98 hit, 7 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

Sage lv 1 (bolting, 1 thunder, 1 shade [d])

28 hp, 24 atk, 4 AS, 89 hit, 10 avo, 8 def, 14 res, 10 crit, 2 cev

Raven lv 6-8 (beak, 2 coin [1d])

34 hp, 20 atk, 18 AS, 120 hit, 38 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 2 cev

So, Muarim and Neph are both pretty even in the durability department, with Muarim having slightly more HP. Actually, screw it. 12 HP can be death or life. Muarim wins durability. And ATK. Heck, neither of them care about Hit either. All the Avos for the enemies are terribad. The only thing Neph wins out on is AS if she gets a speed proc during the level, or if Muarim goes without the band. All of their hit percentages are in the 40's or lower, with the worst one being the Ravens, with about 70 Hit on them. Neph can double slightly more enemies than Muarim, plus 1-2 range harass, but overall, they're both too even at this level. They can ORKO what you expect them to, with Muarim able to take a slightly bigger chunk out of people, but they're both even.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Soren37

[Caliban of Sycorax]

When working with efficiency it really doesn't matter if Nephenee has "potential" to be a great combat unit. To become a great combat unit she needs intense babying, BEXP, and resources that take time. Especially when we have units that can use lances and have equal or better combat (see: Titania, Jill, Oscar). Plus, Neph doesn't contribute much in terms of utility. Her poor join situation lowers her usefulness even more.

Muarim, on the other hand, has pretty strong combat when he joins, and has the utility to back it up.

[Soren37]

Yet Mist is where she is because we're willing to give her two Arms Scrolls and free staff EXP. And BEXP.

[aku chi]

When working with efficiency it really doesn't matter if Marcia has "potential" to be a great combat unit. To become a great combat unit she needs intense babying, BEXP, and resources that take time. Especially when we have units that can use lances and have equal or better combat (see: Titania, Jill, Oscar). Her poor join situation lowers her usefulness even more.

All Nephenee (or Marcia) need is Bexp. They need quite a lot to start ORKOing, but we have quite a lot. Their use of the Bexp is not costless, but it also is not crippling. Obviously, Marcia helps us more if she gets Bexp, but Nephenee also develops into a useful combatent. Nephenee can have trouble reaching the action in many chapters, but she is one of the best rescue-drop candidates (competing with Boyd and Ike) and can be especially helpful in C25 with Vantage/Wrath.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Staff utility. Mist is the second healer and her and Rhys are the only healers until Soren/Ilyana/Tormod promotes.

[Radiant Dragon]

Nephenee can have trouble reaching the action in many chapters, but she is one of the best rescue-drop candidates (competing with Boyd and Ike) and can be especially helpful in C25 with Vantage/Wrath.

I continue to insist that since the mounts in this game are so godly you're not getting rescue-dropped unless your name is Ike.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

In C25 we have Jill and Haar, who, if the former has a good enough defense, can survive hits from the ballistae. They'll basically fly around the map, rescuedrop Ike and Boyd and maybe a staff user, and kill stuff. Easy few turns. If you really need another unit, Tanith can use her reinforcements to distract the ballistae users. Nephenee isn't that useful in the chapter.

[Anouleth]

Yet Mist is where she is because we're willing to give her two Arms Scrolls

That's not why she's there, and if it is she needs to move down.

and free staff EXP.

As opposed to that staff exp that takes away from other people?

And BEXP.

See, while giving Mist BEXP gets use something we cannot get from any other unit and is quite valuable in it's own right, giving Nephenee BEXP just gives us Muarim with less movement.

[aku chi]

In C25 we have Jill and Haar, who, if the former has a good enough defense, can survive hits from the ballistae. They'll basically fly around the map, rescuedrop Ike and Boyd and maybe a staff user, and kill stuff. Easy few turns. If you really need another unit, Tanith can use her reinforcements to distract the ballistae users. Nephenee isn't that useful in the chapter.

- Last I heard, this was not an optimal deployment list. If it were, more than half of the units would be in a tier called "Unused".

- Vantage/Wrath Nephenee is arguably the very best drop candidate for C25. The only real competition is Vantage/Wrath Boyd, but he has a harder time surviving. Nephenee has more durability naturally and can equip the Knight Ward when in Wrath range as an added bonus. Ike, with his lack of 2-range, is far inferior.

See, while giving Mist BEXP gets use something we cannot get from any other unit and is quite valuable in it's own right, giving Nephenee BEXP just gives us Muarim with less movement.

With more AS and 1-2 range. And considerably more 1-range Atk. with a Silver Forge.

[Radiant Dragon]

- Vantage/Wrath Nephenee is arguably the very best drop candidate for C25. The only real competition is Vantage/Wrath Boyd, but he has a harder time surviving. Nephenee has more durability naturally and can equip the Knight Ward when in Wrath range as an added bonus. Ike, with his lack of 2-range, is far inferior.

I continue to insist that since the mounts in this game are so godly you're not getting rescue-dropped unless your name is Ike.

Although I admit I can see the merits of Rescue-dropping in Chapter 25, it doesn't really have much impact on the Nephenee vs. Muarim comparison (as in, it's not going to suddenly make her better than him).

[Soren37]

Oh, um...you guys are still talking about this?

Alrighty then, umm...where to start.

The mounted people in this game are indeed godly. This means that low MOV units (Boyd, Ike, Neph, Mia) can get left behind. However, all of the Pallies should, in my opinion, blitz towards the boss/seize tile ASAP (one of them maybe carrying Ike), while Boyd, Neph, and Mia clean up whatever is left behind. I haven't beaten this on HM, but playing like a turtle doesn't net you low turn-counts.

Neph and Muarim at the point I compared are very similar. However, Muarim can gain EXP at a slower rate because of his Laguz level, which means Neph, while starting lower, can grow faster and can grab forges and 1-2 range over Muarim. Muarim will always beat her in durability, but Neph can just avoid attacks and ruin them next turn.

Also, Muarim is dependent upon his gauge. The Demi-band is great and all, but after a while, the slow EXP gain and the transformation nerfs are going to begin to hurt him.

I seem to recall someone bringing up Neph's starting situation, but in any event, who else are we going to be giving BEXP to? When we get Neph, we have the following characters: Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Soren, Mia, Ilyana, Mist, Rolf, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Volke, Kieran, Brom, Nephenee. Out of everyone there, who are we going to give BEXP to? I only see Mist and Neph needing it, as Kieran starts out at level 13, while Mist and Neph only joined the level before and may want some love. Marcia may want some as well.

[Radiant Dragon]

I seem to recall someone bringing up Neph's starting situation, but in any event, who else are we going to be giving BEXP to? When we get Neph, we have the following characters: Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Soren, Mia, Ilyana, Mist, Rolf, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Volke, Kieran, Brom, Nephenee. Out of everyone there, who are we going to give BEXP to? I only see Mist and Neph needing it, as Kieran starts out at level 13, while Mist and Neph only joined the level before and may want some love. Marcia may want some as well.

Soren, Mia and Ilyana all want BEXP if they're going to be good, and Ike, Oscar and Boyd would definitely like some too to secure ORKOs. I'm not saying Nephenee can't get BEXP (far from it), but she's not one of three units that want it.

[-Cynthia-]

Kieran's Spd is a little iffy at base, and if we're using Brom he'll want BEXP as soon as the KW comes into play. There are also several units joining shortly after Neph that like BEXP (Zihark, Jill, Astrid, Makalov etc.)

And yes, a large BEXP dump on Marcia helps her clear C12 and C15 more quickly, so we proabbly want to put a good deal on her as well. There's still BEXP for Nephenee of course, but probably not enough to make her into a combat unit outclassing Muarim (considering Muarim's Mov advanatage and Shoving utility).

[Soren37]

If we're going for efficiency, I'm not sure if Brom will be used. He could be a great stone wall, but I don't see him helping complete chapters faster. Kieran's SPD is iffy, but 40% should grow up by itself, with the occasional BEXP level. The other thing that we can consider is a forge for those who have just joined us. Now, Marcia has joined in the level before we get Neph and Kieran, so if we throw a forge at her, that leaves two characters. Why can't we give one character an awesome forge and the other BEXP along with Mist?

And wasn't a past argument used that we get so much BEXP in this game that it almost doesn't matter?

[Kaoz]

If we're going for efficiency, I'm not sure if Brom will be used. He could be a great stone wall, but I don't see him helping complete chapters faster.

If I'm not mistaken, we agreed that we can only rank characters when we actually use them. Granted, Brom isn't very good and wouldn't do much, but still.

[Soren37]

But are we going to use all 3 of the rescued prisoners? Kieran's on a horse, so he's in. That leaves Neph and Brom. Granted we also have Mordecai and Lethe to deploy, so I'd much rater field Mordecai for the absolute stonewall and to recruit Z.

And no one has seen the tidbit about forges? Marcia gets a forge before the prison chapter, while in the next chapter, Mist and another character get BEXP and the other prisoner gets a forge.

[Zkirsche]

Why is largo > Janaff, when Largo has 3-4 chapters compared to Janaff's 11-12 chapters? (depending if you count endgame as a chapter for them to perform or not). Considering Largo really isn't that good regardlesss, having 8 more chapters of availability with flight and 8 mov.

[-Cynthia-]

Janaff isn't that good either, he's locked to a one range weapon and cannot ORKO most enemy types (whereas Largo can ORKO at 1-2 range). There's a large availability gap here, but there's a large availability gap between say, Rolf and Largo as well.

[aku chi]

Why is largo > Janaff, when Largo has 3-4 chapters compared to Janaff's 11-12 chapters? (depending if you count endgame as a chapter for them to perform or not). Considering Largo really isn't that good regardlesss, having 8 more chapters of availability with flight and 8 mov.

Largo can have a pretty impressive C25. With just a few levels of Bexp, he can ORKO everything with a Silver Axe forge and ORKO most of the beorc at 1-2 range with a forged Hand Axe. And while his paper-thin durability normally means that you need to be very careful with his positioning, Vantage + Wrath is a potential costly solution to his durability woes (100% chance to crit-blick with a Killer Axe or ~80% chance to crit-blick with a +crit Hand Axe forge while in Wrath range).

Largo can also help clear some of the chokepoint Generals in C27, being one of the few units that can cleanly ORKO them.

Edited August 8, 2011 by aku chi

[Life]

Yet Mist is where she is because we're willing to give her two Arms Scrolls and free staff EXP. And BEXP.

Mist is there because she's a promoted healer on a horse at 10/1 which costs 841 BExp. Assuming we promote Mist for Chapter 10, that's already C Staves. She'll get B in time for Physic and she's on a horse starting in Chapter 10.