FE9 Tier list v3

[Radiant Dragon]

7 isn't massive sorry for exaggerating, but with 2 level ups Soren is able to double archers (the ones weighed down by Steel Bows) as well.

He can double them at base AS (at least, the one in Chapter 7), and add weighed down Fighters to that too, whom I forgot last night.

But the thing is that his offense is almost on par with Boyd and Ike's when he's around... *almost* with an 8% adept activation rate.

If Shinon's critical rate is considered unreliable, then Soren's Adept activation rate is a nonfactor.

He'll also definitely gain EXP in the defend map and he'll be able to get to Level 5 quite easily on that Escape map which gives him ~9 AS and 9 (10?) Atk.

In my efficiency playthrough, I didn't get Soren to level 3 until Chapter 7. It's hard to justify giving kills to Soren due to his bad move and durability when we've got Titania dominating the maps and people like Ike, Boyd and Oscar who want those kills and put them to much better use.

It's not enough to 1 round but frankly nobody outside of Titania is one rounding anyway.

Soren has the worst offense on the team because everyone 2RKOs (except Armors and Ike misses some Soldiers), while Soren 3RKOs at best. You can't just say 'no one but Titania ORKOs' and leave it at that.

He helps get rid of Armors that barely take damage from anything but Tits and the Regal Sword, and he can also double some Myrmidons if he needs to.

Boyd does more damage to Armors than Ike does, at least in my experience. Also, the only Mrymidons Soren is doubling are the ones with Iron Blades, which everyone can double.

he's better than most things against Ike anyway because he doesn't necessarily fear a counter attack.

I'll give you 1-2 range, which is really helpful, but Ike does more against Cavaliers, Fighters, Myrmidons and most Soldiers, which make up a significant portion of the enemies.

That is fine but a 20/1 Soren has *slightly* better damage output than a 20/6 Callil.

Siege tomes have the highest might in the game aside from Rexbolt, and Calill's Magic is more that sufficient to get the job done (plus there are Spirit Dusts she can put to great use, if necessary).

even then that may be iffy because his ranks get boosted to D when he promotes anyway so he'll only need one).

Yeah, I forgot about that.

Not counting the fact that Stefan has otherwise poor durability at a certain point

Have you used Stefan? His durability doesn't become a problem for a while.

Stefan may join as one of the best, but he doesn't gain much experience and ends up pretty fail.

An EXP hog argument? Seriously? His offense will always be better than Mia and Zihark's, and they only eek leads against him late game when they can claim better durability.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

And one of those is Maniac exclusive.

oh whoops. Still didn't answer the second half of the question.

If Shinon's critical rate is considered unreliable, then Soren's Adept activation rate is a nonfactor.

I'm saying it's there, not that it's to be relied on. It has to activate eventually, after all.

Doesn't Shinon have 20 crit or something? That's not something to be relied on but it's still there.

In my efficiency playthrough, I didn't get Soren to level 3 until Chapter 7. It's hard to justify giving kills to Soren due to his bad move and durability when we've got Titania dominating the maps and people like Ike, Boyd and Oscar who want those kills and put them to much better use.

My efficiency runs had the lowest possible per chapter and he got to Level 5 on Chapter 7. He was Level 4 going into C6 and Level 5 coming out of C7.

Soren has the worst offense on the team because everyone 2RKOs (except Armors and Ike misses some Soldiers), while Soren 3RKOs at best. You can't just say 'no one but Titania ORKOs' and leave it at that.

Soren 2RKOs a bunch of things that he can double. Boyd has a hard time with doubling even with Speedwings sometimes, too, so he borders on 3HKOs and Ike has a tough time surviving while 2RKOing.

Boyd does more damage to Armors than Ike does, at least in my experience. Also, the only Mrymidons Soren is doubling are the ones with Iron Blades, which everyone can double.

Regal Sword Ike does more damage unless you're giving Boyd a Hammer or something.

I'll give you 1-2 range, which is really helpful, but Ike does more against Cavaliers, Fighters, Myrmidons and most Soldiers, which make up a significant portion of the enemies.

Except Ike can't get too much action on enemy phase if he wants to go up against him -- I'm not sure about you but even with Angelic Robe and dodging the Fighters he was brought down to like 5-10 HP out of each enemy phase.

Siege tomes have the highest might in the game aside from Rexbolt, and Calill's Magic is more that sufficient to get the job done (plus there are Spirit Dusts she can put to great use, if necessary).

Spirit Dusts you can use on Soren on top of Mage Bands. Not that it matters much because this is a Soren argument and not a Callil argument. By the way, who are we arguing Soren against here?

Have you used Stefan? His durability doesn't become a problem for a while.

When I wasn't into efficiency he would get killed off pretty easily, and some enemies tend to have critical on him -- the odds DO stack up after all, and he's bound to get hit by something. He doesn't have as much Avo as lategame Mia/Zihark (but his midgame offense is ridiculous). At best I could think Stefan > Mages > Miahark, though.

An EXP hog argument? Seriously? His offense will always be better than Mia and Zihark's, and they only eek leads against him late game when they can claim better durability.

I wasn't making an EXP hog argument. I was saying he doesn't grow as fast so people out-durable him very quickly (especially with better supports and the mounts get Axes), nor is he extremely integral to his chapters afterwards (like Titania, for reference, who can easily get to Level 8 or 9 by C13). Not that I'm comparing him to other units, but I'm saying that time and resources don't really fix his problems like other units.

I've been doing more in my efficiency run and I'm starting to lean towards Tormod > Soren again. Soren chips in early chapters, and he does a good job, but Tormod's massive movement just puts him extremely far ahead of Soren and allows him to Siege extremely well.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Shadow Mir]

oh whoops. Still didn't answer the second half of the question.

As to that... The problem is that you don't get a Meteor until Calill joins, unless I'm mistaken.

[aku chi]

I've been doing more in my efficiency run and I'm starting to lean towards Tormod > Soren again. Soren chips in early chapters, and he does a good job, but Tormod's massive movement just puts him extremely far ahead of Soren and allows him to Siege extremely well.

How does extra movement help one siege? Are there some boss weakens that are out of reach of the other Sages (without ferrying) that Tormod can reach unassisted?

As to that... The problem is that you don't get a Meteor until Calill joins, unless I'm mistaken.

Calill's Meteor is the first siege tome that's particularly efficient to obtain, but there is a Bolting in a C16 chest and a few siege tomes that can theoretically be stolen in C17-4 and C18.

[Lord Raven]

How does extra movement help one siege?

Getting into range much faster. 2 move = a whole extra turn's worth of movement advantage every 3 turns.

Are there some boss weakens that are out of reach of the other Sages (without ferrying) that Tormod can reach unassisted?

There was Ena, for me, in case Ike's critical didn't work out; Tormod could Meteor, Marcia did 9x2 with Javelin (so twice = 36 HP) with 5 damage from Meteor would kill off Ena assuming Ike does 13 damage with Laguzslayer. That was for my efficiency run, anyway, as backup.

[aku chi]

Getting into range much faster. 2 move = a whole extra turn's worth of movement advantage every 3 turns.

I understand the concept of movement, thank you very much. I am questioning how often extra movment is needed when you are using a 10-range weapon in particular.

There was Ena, for me, in case Ike's critical didn't work out; Tormod could Meteor, Marcia did 9x2 with Javelin (so twice = 36 HP) with 5 damage from Meteor would kill off Ena assuming Ike does 13 damage with Laguzslayer. That was for my efficiency run, anyway, as backup.

Did Tormod go the long way around or did you ferry him over the moat? If you ferried him, then I don't see how his extra movement helped. If he went the long way around, I reckon you could have completed the chapter before he got within range to hit Ena.

On a vaguely related note, did you consider using Tauroneo to weaken/kill Ena? If he gets into Resolve range (which you can manipulate before you recruit him), he deals 30 damage to Ena with the Laguz Lance at base.

[Lord Raven]

I understand the concept of movement, thank you very much. I am questioning how often extra movment is needed when you are using a 10-range weapon in particular.

In C23, he is in the back line of the formation and still managed to get in range to OHKO an Archer. Soren didn't have that access.

Did Tormod go the long way around or did you ferry him over the moat? If you ferried him, then I don't see how his extra movement helped. If he went the long way around, I reckon you could have completed the chapter before he got within range to hit Ena.

Long way around. It took around 4 turns to get in range, with the standard being a six turn clera.

On a vaguely related note, did you consider using Tauroneo to weaken/kill Ena? If he gets into Resolve range (which you can manipulate before you recruit him), he deals 30 damage to Ena with the Laguz Lance at base.

Didn't have the Laguz Lance, but getting him to Resolve range can be easily done because the Mages seem to prioritize him if he equips the Silver Blade and Ena does ~13 damage (The Mages themselves do around 6 apiece). Parking him in front of Ena yields a pretty high damage output with a Laguzslayer, especially with Resolve. Edited August 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm saying it's there, not that it's to be relied on. It has to activate eventually, after all.

Doesn't Shinon have 20 crit or something? That's not something to be relied on but it's still there.

So? The point is we can't rely on it activating when we need it to.

Soren 2RKOs a bunch of things that he can double.

When does Soren get the Magic to 2RKO stuff with Wind?

Boyd has a hard time with doubling even with Speedwings sometimes, too, so he borders on 3HKOs and Ike has a tough time surviving while 2RKOing.

Only if you're feeding an overrated Mage all of the kills. A level 6 (might have been level 7) Boyd w/Speedwing in Chapter 7 doubles every enemy except the Thief and one reinforcement Myrmidon (that was on the other side of the map anyway).

Regal Sword Ike does more damage unless you're giving Boyd a Hammer or something.

Ike with the Regal Sword does like, 5~6 damage to Armors, due to WTD. Boyd with a Steel Axe does more. I forget what this has to do with Soren, though.

Except Ike can't get too much action on enemy phase if he wants to go up against him -- I'm not sure about you but even with Angelic Robe and dodging the Fighters he was brought down to like 5-10 HP out of each enemy phase.

What about Soren's enemy phase? Or shall I say, lack of one?

Spirit Dusts you can use on Soren on top of Mage Bands.

No. Soren should not be needing Spirit Dusts. That's like giving Mia a Speedwing so she can double Ravens in Chapter 12 with less BEXP.

By the way, who are we arguing Soren against here?

I'm just pointing out that Soren is not as awesome as everyone seems to think he is.

At best I could think Stefan > Mages > Miahark, though.

Well, I'd like to hear others' thoughts on Stefan vs. Tormod. I'm not sure how they should be ordered, but I think Stefan should stay above Tormod (and by extension, the rest of the Mages). The gap in performance is not very large, so the BEXP Tormod needs acts as kind of a tie-breaker.

I wasn't making an EXP hog argument. I was saying he doesn't grow as fast so people out-durable him very quickly (especially with better supports and the mounts get Axes),

Except Stefan's durability is sufficient for much longer than you're giving him credit for, and he can take Vague Katti to increase it by 3 (Mia and Zihark won't be able to use it for a long time).

nor is he extremely integral to his chapters afterwards (like Titania, for reference, who can easily get to Level 8 or 9 by C13).

Pretty much anyone without a mount isn't integral in any chapters. There's Reyson, and siege utility when it's relevant (which isn't as often as everyone argues). Non-Tormod siege users need to be ferried to actually get in range to use them outside of Chapter 22, and I don't particularly want to say Tormod > Stefan solely due to siege tomes.

Not that I'm comparing him to other units, but I'm saying that time and resources don't really fix his problems like other units.

They don't really fix Tormod's, either. Tormod has worse durability and worse offense than Stefan(neither have many troubles admittedly, but Stefan misses ORKOs on less enemies), and there's BEXP if you want to go that route. Tormod does have range and healing in his favor, though.

I've been doing more in my efficiency run and I'm starting to lean towards Tormod > Soren again.

I can see it either way. Soren exists for longer, but Tormod does more when they both exist... It's pretty subjective.

[Lord Raven]

I'm just pointing out that Soren is not as awesome as everyone seems to think he is.

Well he's in mid tier, so thank you for showing why.

Pretty much anyone without a mount isn't integral in any chapters. There's Reyson, and siege utility when it's relevant (which isn't as often as everyone argues). Non-Tormod siege users need to be ferried to actually get in range to use them outside of Chapter 22, and I don't particularly want to say Tormod > Stefan solely due to siege tomes.

Isn't the fact that Tormod doesn't need ferrying a point in his favor? It frees up two combat units for longer.

I'm not sure how to argue a "maybe" at the moment. I'm leaving Soren/Tormod/Stefan up to the OP's discretion.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Isn't the fact that Tormod doesn't need ferrying a point in his favor? It frees up two combat units for longer.

Bullshit. They are siege tomes. They have frickin' 10 range. That Tormod would be able to hit a relevant target that the other Sages couldn't is really hard to believe. It would have to be a really long, really large chapter. The only one that comes to mind is C21. And siege tomes aren't even that useful in C21. But if we really need a non-Tormod Sage to deal ~5 damage to Ena, we can just use some scrub flier like Janaff to ferry them over the moat. Hell, I'd rather ferry over Soren and Ilyana if they have C Staves because then they can Restore Ike (or whomever) if they get put to Sleep.

[Lord Raven]

C23 is also a very large chapter and I brought *that* up. Tormod can stay behind in the initial formation, go his entire movement, and off the first Archer if needed (given a Spirit Dust or two, nobody else is using them).

[Radiant Dragon]

Bullshit. They are siege tomes. They have frickin' 10 range. That Tormod would be able to hit a relevant target that the other Sages couldn't is really hard to believe.

Tormod can actually keep up with our other units and do something other than use Siege tomes, though.

[aku chi]

C23 is also a very large chapter and I brought *that* up. Tormod can stay behind in the initial formation, go his entire movement, and off the first Archer if needed (given a Spirit Dust or two, nobody else is using them).

I have a radical solution to pull off the same thing with Soren: deply him two spaces forward instead of a dedicated shover or somebody who's going to hang back anyway (like Jill).

Tormod can actually keep up with our other units and do something other than use Siege tomes, though.

Which is an entirely different, and valid, point.

[Lord Raven]

I have a radical solution to pull off the same thing with Soren: deply him two spaces forward instead of a dedicated shover or somebody who's going to hang back anyway (like Jill).

You don't need Jill to hang back at all. In fact, Jill can go her full range for two turns and be able to head back on Turn 3 to talk to Haar by turn 4.

As for Soren, the other fact is that mounted units still should be able to move the full extent of their range, and this doesn't get into the fact that Tormod also needs to go *ridiculously* far to off the Sniper on Turn 2. My Shovers were in the back, for the record.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

Bullshit. They are siege tomes. They have frickin' 10 range.

And? Some maps are 40+ tiles from start to seize.

Niime has 18 staff range with Apocalypse equipped in FE6, but 18 staff range is by no means effectively infinite and there are several instances where it is not enough.

[Lord Raven]

[12:24:12] <Mercenary_Raven> so playing my efficiency run

[12:24:13] <Mercenary_Raven> i have decied

[12:24:16] <Mercenary_Raven> decided

[12:24:19] <Mercenary_Raven> ther eneeds to be 3 tiers in fe9

[12:24:21] <Mercenary_Raven> flier tier

[12:24:29] <Mercenary_Raven> not flier but has good offense for a time tier

[12:24:35] <Mercenary_Raven> and then why the fuck would you use these faggots tier

[12:25:59] <Mercenary_Raven> oh mounted tier as well

That is my honest opinion on how this list should be revamped LOL, I literally see no use for most of the list. In fact, I do believe Tormod should be bumped up to High (or at least above Nephenee) simply because of his movement advantage.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

It's only 8 Move after promotion (as opposed to 9 Mov+Canto). It's obviously a benefit, but he's "closer" in Mov to someone like Nephenee than someone with a mount. Tormod also has very questionable durability and occasionally misses ORKOs. Nephenee misses ORKOs sometimes too, but after we get Vantage, we can use Wrath+Vantage on her and watch groups of things die. If more than ~3 things attack Tormod, he's probably dead.

Edited August 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

Nephenee misses ORKOs sometimes too, but after we get Vantage, we can use Wrath+Vantage on her and watch groups of things die.

Since when does 50% equal 100%?

If more than ~3 things attack Tormod, he's probably dead.

Not really. Enemies suck in this game, and his avoid is decent, if unspectacular. He's no tank, but he's not Rhys or Soren.

[Lord Raven]

I don't see how Nephenee's even getting an enemy phase if the mounts are rushing ahead and killing everything they see. If anything, Tormod's more likely to see kills and combat (and trust me, he won't be getting hit more than once or twice on enemy phase because you underestimate just how powerful the mounts and fliers can be with proper resource allocations) than Nephenee, on top of having a 2-range weapon that does respectable damage AND has good durability, unlike Nephenee's (Javelins are either not powerful enough or you'd rather give the forges to someone like Jill or Marcia, whereas Spears and Short Spears are in short supply anyway; Tormod has no such competition and can gradually move up the magic ladder).

Trust me, 8 move on a magic user is quite a boon, especially because there are instances where you can position your magic user in the back and they can still reach your mounts if they truly need to, and they can do it a lot better than your foot units. Judging by my efficiency playthrough, Titania did all the work in the first thirds, and Marcia did pretty much everything in the next 50% of the game, and Marcia/Jill are now tagteaming for the final sixth... so the tier list, if we're going by efficiency, could definitely use a bit of revamping to reflect something like that. I doubt Titania deserves to be an entire tier above Marcia and Jill; in fact, I don't even think Oscar/Kieran should be in the same tier as those two.

Ike also deserves to be higher than Boyd. As strange as that sounds, hear me out; Ike with an angelic Robe is way more durable than Boyd and has almost the same offense early on. That's not it, though. As you progress, Ike becomes a bit more necessary for whatever reason and he's deployed constantly, he's moving constantly and etc, he'll be ferried a lot and he'll be carried to where he needs to go -- he receives a *shitton* of combat as a result. An absolute shitton. He leaves Boyd in the dust, essentially, giving him an eternal level advantage for a while, even despite Ike's "late" promotion. Boyd's 2-range can't even ORKO unless you give him a ton of resources that he shouldn't need to use anyway.

Since when does 50% equal 100%?

It's still a good chance to kill, to be fair, but the problem is that Nephenee's durability sometimes doesn't let her get there in time to utilize that. She does stand a 75% chance of ORKOing any enemy she fights because of Wrath, though, but that's more of a boss killing tactic that Ike actually takes away from her once you get the C18 Wrath scroll. Not that it bumps her down that Ike does it better, but she's just too durable to properly utilize it when she's built up to par and she won't see enough combat due to having 7 move to make full use of it.

I wouldn't be making these points now if I didn't realize just how fucking ridiculous mount (especially flying) and high move in general was in this game. Holy Christ.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Life]

Stefan has less move than Tormod once Tormod promotes, and they're on equal footing otherwise. Not counting the fact that Stefan has otherwise poor durability at a certain point and lacks the option to launch (good) attacks from 2-range, which Tormod has. On top of Siege tomes. Stefan may join as one of the best, but he doesn't gain much experience and ends up pretty fail. Especially considering his lack of supports. Tormod at least has a quick support with Reyson for +3 Atk, as well as Callil for a +5 total Atk. Stefan has Soren which gives him... +1 Atk, +8 Evade, +a shitload of hit that is quite irrelevant.

Seriously? Have you ever even used Stefan before?

Let it be known that the first thing that can 2HKO base Stefan is a 31 Att Tiger in Chapter 22, 7 chapters after Stefan joins. In addition, let me also mention that the first thing that can 2HKO base Stefan with the Vague Katti is the Chapter 24 boss Ricard and he can only do this at 52 Hit. That's another 2 chapters. Considering that Stefan should be like level 12 or so at this point, the guy's already gained another 3 HP and 1 Def, on top of an extra 5 Avo.

C'mon, let's get real. Stefan's "poor durability" really only means something in the last 2 chapters of the game and if you're throwing him against a Dragon, Bryce or Ashnard.

[Lord Raven]

Are you proving Stefan > Tormod or are you just saying that Stefan's durability is not *that* bad? Because the latter has already been covered with a loss from me (albeit I didn't outright say it).

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see how Nephenee's even getting an enemy phase if the mounts are rushing ahead and killing everything they see. If anything, Tormod's more likely to see kills and combat (and trust me, he won't be getting hit more than once or twice on enemy phase because you underestimate just how powerful the mounts and fliers can be with proper resource allocations) than Nephenee, on top of having a 2-range weapon that does respectable damage AND has good durability, unlike Nephenee's (Javelins are either not powerful enough or you'd rather give the forges to someone like Jill or Marcia, whereas Spears and Short Spears are in short supply anyway; Tormod has no such competition and can gradually move up the magic ladder).

If the mounts are going ahead and killing everything Tormod falls behind on most maps as well, since he still has less Mov than them (and has to stop whenever he wants to do something).

Not every chapter is "rush towards the boss" as well, a chapter like C26 involves killing enemies across the map. We can put Nephenee against a group of enemy types and expect them to die, can't say the same for Tormod.

I don't think giving Nephenee a Spear/Short Spear/Javelin forge for chapters where we want to use such things is a huge resource really. Yeah, Marcia would like a Javelin forge too, but we do get forge access every chapter past C7.

Trust me, 8 move on a magic user is quite a boon, especially because there are instances where you can position your magic user in the back and they can still reach your mounts if they truly need to, and they can do it a lot better than your foot units.

I'm still saying Tormod's durability means he may have trouble using his full Mov every turn. Looking at something like a 20/4 Tormod in C24, he has 32 HP and 10 Def. 26 Atk 2HKOs him, which about a third of the map. Their hit rates range from about 90-105 Hit, opposed to Tormod's 50 avoid, he's looking at around 50% hit on him most of the time. That's pretty bad. Most other enemy combinations on the map 3HKO him. I guess you could give him more levels, but 50% HP, 25 % Def growth isn't getting him too far.

Compare this to something like a 20/6 Nephenee, who has 36 HP and 17 Def. A 22 Atk enemy 7RKOs her, 3RKOs Tormod. Other High tier units like Astrid have a similar level of durability.

Is it possible to position units so that Tormod doesn't get attacked by more than ~2-3? Yes, but they either have to check their move or Tormod won't be using his full Move. Especially when units like Paladins and Wyvern Lords are involved (the sort of units that like to 2HKO Tormod).

Judging by my efficiency playthrough, Titania did all the work in the first thirds, and Marcia did pretty much everything in the next 50% of the game, and Marcia/Jill are now tagteaming for the final sixth... so the tier list, if we're going by efficiency, could definitely use a bit of revamping to reflect something like that. I doubt Titania deserves to be an entire tier above Marcia and Jill; in fact, I don't even think Oscar/Kieran should be in the same tier as those two.

I already outlined why Titania is above Marcia and Jill (only Titania can do what she does, Marcia and Jill are replicated by each other and Tanith).

Jill and Marcia flying is important, but it's fairly irrelevant on some maps (C26 and 27 for example) where they then lose slightly to Oscar/Kieran (Oscar also has an availabily lead to consider).

Ike also deserves to be higher than Boyd. As strange as that sounds, hear me out; Ike with an angelic Robe is way more durable than Boyd and has almost the same offense early on.

How is Ike being more durable than Boyd (with a Robe) significant, while Nephenee being more durable than Tormod isn't? I also find this claim questionable.

10/0 Ike (with robe)

33 HP 9 Def 4 Res

7/0 Boyd

34 HP 6 Def 1 Res

He does win durability, but I wouldn't call it a huge lead- he's not winning at all without the Robe. An enemy like chapter 7 Steel Lance soldiers (17 Atk) 3HKOs Ike and not Boyd due to WT. A Steel Bow archer (14 Atk) 5RKOs Boyd, 7RKOs Ike. I'm not seeing Ike pulling a huge durability advantage unless he's against axes (which there aren't much of from 4-8 really). Now if you're talking about after Ike can get Oscar/Titania/whoever supports, yeah his durability is pretty much untouchable, but Boyd also gains some durability through supports.

That's not it, though. As you progress, Ike becomes a bit more necessary for whatever reason and he's deployed constantly, he's moving constantly and etc, he'll be ferried a lot and he'll be carried to where he needs to go -- he receives a *shitton* of combat as a result. An absolute shitton. He leaves Boyd in the dust, essentially, giving him an eternal level advantage for a while, even despite Ike's "late" promotion. Boyd's 2-range can't even ORKO unless you give him a ton of resources that he shouldn't need to use anyway.

Ike doesn't get any exp by riding in people's saddlebags and there aren't that many Seize/Escape maps anyway (1 5, 9, 10, 16, 21, 23, 27, 28). On other maps, there really isn't a reason to be ferrying Ike around. What maps do we actually have Ike participating a lot in (and not Boyd for whatever reason), other than C28 and F (which Ike wins anyway)? I found that Ike usually needed a good deal of BEXP before C28 to be competitive- since he was generally dropped and then Seized the next turn.

2 range not ORKOing- prove it. A 13/0 Boyd with a Hand Axe has 21 Atk (and enough speed to double all non-myrms with the Wing), this 2HKOs most of the Chapter 9 Soldiers with WTA factored in, some of the fighters, and most importantly the archers and mages (because these are the units that attack at 2 range). Sure, he's not ORKOing say Knights at 2 range- but it's not like Ike can ORKO them at one range anyway. The only enemies Ike actually beats Boyd against in this chapter are the myrms Boyd can't double and Ike can- Boyd wins all other enemy types. This trend continues until Ike gets Ragnell pretty much.

It's still a good chance to kill, to be fair, but the problem is that Nephenee's durability sometimes doesn't let her get there in time to utilize that. She does stand a 75% chance of ORKOing any enemy she fights because of Wrath, though, but that's more of a boss killing tactic that Ike actually takes away from her once you get the C18 Wrath scroll. Not that it bumps her down that Ike does it better, but she's just too durable to properly utilize it when she's built up to par and she won't see enough combat due to having 7 move to make full use of it.

We can Rescue drop her in say C25, and let her go to town. Nephenee also does Wrath/Vantage better than Ike does anyway, since she can counter at 2 range (the Sonic Sword is iffy). And it's not like Nephenee needs Wrath to kill things necessarily, she can ORKO Mages and Archers at 1-2 range with Javelins and almost all other enemy types at 1 range with forges. Tormod's doubling is a lot iffier than hers as well (myrms/SMs are right out, things like Pallies are questionable).

I wouldn't be making these points now if I didn't realize just how fucking ridiculous mount (especially flying) and high move in general was in this game. Holy Christ.

Move is important, but it's not the only thing that's important. I probably will put Tormod>Soren and maybe Stefan, but he does have a lot of shortcomings despite having 1 higher Mov than other foot units.

Edited August 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Life]

Are you proving Stefan > Tormod or are you just saying that Stefan's durability is not *that* bad? Because the latter has already been covered with a loss from me (albeit I didn't outright say it).

The second but I'm trying to show basic mistakes. It's what I've been doing in this tier list for the past 2 months. I'll pop in with a comment, show how person x is a fucking retard for making a general sweeping comment and pop out again.

This isn't about winning or losing, kid. It's about whether or not your point is sensible or not.

[Lord Raven]

Erm, I'm fully aware it's not about winning or losing, but if you're going to make a statement like that you may as well show a relevant stance.

If the mounts are going ahead and killing everything Tormod falls behind on most maps as well, since he still has less Mov than them (and has to stop whenever he wants to do something).

1 move isn't as significant as 2 move.

Not every chapter is "rush towards the boss" as well, a chapter like C26 involves killing enemies across the map. We can put Nephenee against a group of enemy types and expect them to die, can't say the same for Tormod.

C26 is a rush towards the boss too, it's a Seize map. You may be thinking of C25, but the enemy density in later maps isn't huge that we need one person to go into a group of enemies and take them all out, especially since we have 17 deployment slots to get enemies away from Marcia/Jill ferrying Ike to the boss.

I don't think giving Nephenee a Spear/Short Spear/Javelin forge for chapters where we want to use such things is a huge resource really. Yeah, Marcia would like a Javelin forge too, but we do get forge access every chapter past C7.

I'm saying Spear/Short Spear are in small supply, Javelin forge isn't a big deal I'd agree and it lasts around 2-3 chapters if she's doing as much as you'd think so I'll give you that one.

I'm still saying Tormod's durability means he may have trouble using his full Mov every turn. Looking at something like a 20/4 Tormod in C24, he has 32 HP and 10 Def. 26 Atk 2HKOs him, which about a third of the map. Their hit rates range from about 90-105 Hit, opposed to Tormod's 50 avoid, he's looking at around 50% hit on him most of the time. That's pretty bad. Most other enemy combinations on the map 3HKO him. I guess you could give him more levels, but 50% HP, 25 % Def growth isn't getting him too far.

Compare this to something like a 20/6 Nephenee, who has 36 HP and 17 Def. A 22 Atk enemy 7RKOs her, 3RKOs Tormod. Other High tier units like Astrid have a similar level of durability.

Is it possible to position units so that Tormod doesn't get attacked by more than ~2-3? Yes, but they either have to check their move or Tormod won't be using his full Move. Especially when units like Paladins and Wyvern Lords are involved (the sort of units that like to 2HKO Tormod).

Chapter 24 isn't a map that showcases anyone's quality but the fliers, as I'd like to point out. A 3 turn of the map is extremely simple (and a 4 turn is even simpler), and there aren't enough enemies that are able to gang up on Tormod and 3HKO him because the enemy density towards the beginning (you probably won't be going very far from the beginning, at best you'll be crossing the bridges and going into the northern village/killing the western archer operating the ballista). But *my* point is that full move or not, enemy density isn't large enough at that point to pull off that 3HKO or what have you, especially since Mounts are still likely to cover ground before him. But this still leaves Tormod with a higher chance of actually finding some combat compared to Nephenee, which is the main point.

In the end we're tiering a pretty easy game anyway, so it's hard not to exaggerate certain things.

I already outlined why Titania is above Marcia and Jill (only Titania can do what she does, Marcia and Jill are replicated by each other and Tanith).

Jill and Marcia flying is important, but it's fairly irrelevant on some maps (C26 and 27 for example) where they then lose slightly to Oscar/Kieran (Oscar also has an availabily lead to consider).

Marcia and Jill have significant combat over Tanith, which comes in handy for rush maps. The other point in their favor is that one of them is likely not to be recruited going for low turn counts; not that it's a point against them, but it is a point to be made nonetheless therefore it is extremely likely that *none* of them will be sharing. In fact, the one that gets the Boots will have the more significant advantage, and it's hard to say which one will get the boots exactly -- not that I'm necessarily arguing them above Titania, but the boots help extremely with low turns in the middle maps and 11 move flying is better than 9 move mounted. Especially once the Full Guard comes into play. I'm just saying also that Titania shouldn't be on a tier all in her own.

How is Ike being more durable than Boyd (with a Robe) significant, while Nephenee being more durable than Tormod isn't? I also find this claim questionable.

Because enemy density is greater in the earlier maps, notably in that one defend map (I forget the chapter#, but it's before Greil dies) and in C7. It's not as big a deal when you have a million powerful mounted units able to cover your ass easier; in this case, you have to clear the map quickly while dealing with your most powerful unit on the other side of the map.

He does win durability, but I wouldn't call it a huge lead- he's not winning at all without the Robe. An enemy like chapter 7 Steel Lance soldiers (17 Atk) 3HKOs Ike and not Boyd due to WT. A Steel Bow archer (14 Atk) 5RKOs Boyd, 7RKOs Ike. I'm not seeing Ike pulling a huge durability advantage unless he's against axes (which there aren't much of from 4-8 really). Now if you're talking about after Ike can get Oscar/Titania/whoever supports, yeah his durability is pretty much untouchable, but Boyd also gains some durability through supports.

I'd say 2 defense is pretty good but I'm going to be fair in that 10/0 Ike is really high for the point of the game in which I'm talking about o.o

Ike doesn't get any exp by riding in people's saddlebags and there aren't that many Seize/Escape maps anyway (1 5, 9, 10, 16, 21, 23, 27, 28). On other maps, there really isn't a reason to be ferrying Ike around. What maps do we actually have Ike participating a lot in (and not Boyd for whatever reason), other than C28 and F (which Ike wins anyway)? I found that Ike usually needed a good deal of BEXP before C28 to be competitive- since he was generally dropped and then Seized the next turn.

Ike actually finishes the final chapter pretty early, which is significant. If you pour those resources into him, he can do that. Sonic Sword Ike may not seem like much, but it actually 3HKOs the boss of C25 very handily (and he doesn't have the durability issues Tanith comes with) especially because Resolve is a complete bitch.

I'm also referring to when he's dropped. When he's on the field, since he'll be getting a lot of BEXP due to being almost necessary to beating Ashnard (unless you want to deal with Ena sluggishly getting to the boss and taking away Wrath/Resolve for herself, but that's slower and not as good as Ike) so he'll naturally be getting a lot of the surplus BEXP in this game anyway.

2 range not ORKOing- prove it. A 13/0 Boyd with a Hand Axe has 21 Atk (and enough speed to double all non-myrms with the Wing), this 2HKOs most of the Chapter 9 Soldiers with WTA factored in, some of the fighters, and most importantly the archers and mages (because these are the units that attack at 2 range). Sure, he's not ORKOing say Knights at 2 range- but it's not like Ike can ORKO them at one range anyway. The only enemies Ike actually beats Boyd against in this chapter are the myrms Boyd can't double and Ike can- Boyd wins all other enemy types. This trend continues until Ike gets Ragnell pretty much.

Boyd is not going to be 13/0 going into Chapter 9. Oh hell no. Boyd's not even going to have a high level going into the later chapters -- this prevents doubling and ORKOing too, and this is all because of his 7 move.

We can Rescue drop her in say C25, and let her go to town. Nephenee also does Wrath/Vantage better than Ike does anyway, since she can counter at 2 range (the Sonic Sword is iffy). And it's not like Nephenee needs Wrath to kill things necessarily, she can ORKO Mages and Archers at 1-2 range with Javelins and almost all other enemy types at 1 range with forges. Tormod's doubling is a lot iffier than hers as well (myrms/SMs are right out, things like Pallies are questionable).

So put her above Ike v_v Ike doesn't use Vantage very well, I agree, but Wrath is extremely useful if you want a solid 3-turn of the final chapter. It's still iffy for her because she's not mounted or getting ferried to faraway places all the time.

Move is important, but it's not the only thing that's important. I probably will put Tormod>Soren and maybe Stefan, but he does have a lot of shortcomings despite having 1 higher Mov than other foot units.

No, move is pretty important. I'm not alone in saying that a high movement unit with good stats (basically every single mounted unit in this game) is better than an average movement unit with better stats. Boyd's offensive parameters are superior to Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, Jill, and at some point Titania, but they all beat him due to move. The only reason he's even over many of the units in high tier is availability.

[-Cynthia-]

Chapter 24 isn't a map that showcases anyone's quality but the fliers, as I'd like to point out. A 3 turn of the map is extremely simple (and a 4 turn is even simpler), and there aren't enough enemies that are able to gang up on Tormod and 3HKO him because the enemy density towards the beginning (you probably won't be going very far from the beginning, at best you'll be crossing the bridges and going into the northern village/killing the western archer operating the ballista). But *my* point is that full move or not, enemy density isn't large enough at that point to pull off that 3HKO or what have you, especially since Mounts are still likely to cover ground before him. But this still leaves Tormod with a higher chance of actually finding some combat compared to Nephenee, which is the main point.

Chapter 24 was just an example, it's true that Tormod rushing ahead isn't a key to the map, but there are other maps that are more dense (C26 comes to mind, C23 he may have to take ballista shots etc.)

Marcia and Jill have significant combat over Tanith, which comes in handy for rush maps.

This is questionable IMO. Comparing a 20/6 Marcia to base Tanith, Marcia wins by 2 Str, 2 HP, 2 Res- pretty small leads and Tanith can ORKO Wyverns with the Sonic Sword while Marcia cannot. Jill's leads are a bit larger (though Jill's Spd is questionable for a few tasks, killing Homasa for instance), but I don't think either of them make Tanith completely irrelevant, especially with Reinforce factored in.

The other point in their favor is that one of them is likely not to be recruited going for low turn counts; not that it's a point against them, but it is a point to be made nonetheless therefore it is extremely likely that *none* of them will be sharing.

I wouldn't say it's extremely likely that we're not recruiting one of them. I think it would make more sense to assume both Marcia and Jill exist.

In fact, the one that gets the Boots will have the more significant advantage, and it's hard to say which one will get the boots exactly -- not that I'm necessarily arguing them above Titania, but the boots help extremely with low turns in the middle maps and 11 move flying is better than 9 move mounted. Especially once the Full Guard comes into play. I'm just saying also that Titania shouldn't be on a tier all in her own.

Boots or not, they do beat Titania on flier maps, but the margin is much less than how much Titania beats them on 1-7, again because all the fliers can be replicated, Titania's really one of the only units with a truly unique turncount contribution to the game IMO (well except Ike, but that involves Lord stuff).

Ike actually finishes the final chapter pretty early, which is significant. If you pour those resources into him, he can do that. Sonic Sword Ike may not seem like much, but it actually 3HKOs the boss of C25 very handily (and he doesn't have the durability issues Tanith comes with) especially because Resolve is a complete bitch.

Ike finishing the final chapter doesn't really count in his favor, since defeating Ashnard counts as one of those "forced storyline event deals" where Ike's only useful because the game is forcing us to use him.

Tanith reaches the same boss much more easily, I'm not sure how Ike gets into Gromell's range before Gromell starts attacking our fliers so Ike being able to use the Sonic Sword on him doesn't really help. Tanith fights a ton more wyverns than Ike does if she's in play, unless we're unecessarily rescue dropping Ike so he can do a bit worse at Sonic Swording than she does.

I'm also referring to when he's dropped. When he's on the field, since he'll be getting a lot of BEXP due to being almost necessary to beating Ashnard (unless you want to deal with Ena sluggishly getting to the boss and taking away Wrath/Resolve for herself, but that's slower and not as good as Ike) so he'll naturally be getting a lot of the surplus BEXP in this game anyway.

Boyd is not going to be 13/0 going into Chapter 9. Oh hell no. Boyd's not even going to have a high level going into the later chapters -- this prevents doubling and ORKOing too, and this is all because of his 7 move.

So Boyd can't get any BEXP in C8? That doesn't seem very efficient if we're planning on using him. Also, there are a number of maps in which Boyd can kill reinforcements, or it's a defend map, or he can help thieves get to chests etc etc. that we aren't using mounted units for.

We can give Ike a lot of BEXP, sure, but we can give Boyd a lot of BEXP too (getting him to ORKO is not terribly expensive).

So put her above Ike v_v Ike doesn't use Vantage very well, I agree, but Wrath is extremely useful if you want a solid 3-turn of the final chapter. It's still iffy for her because she's not mounted or getting ferried to faraway places all the time.

Wrath on Ike can be useful for the final chapter but this has nothing to do with Nephenee.

No, move is pretty important. I'm not alone in saying that a high movement unit with good stats (basically every single mounted unit in this game) is better than an average movement unit with better stats. Boyd's offensive parameters are superior to Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, Jill, and at some point Titania, but they all beat him due to move. The only reason he's even over many of the units in high tier is availability.

And Nephenee's more available than Tormod as well.