FE9 Tier list v3

[Eltoshen]

Uh...wtf? When and where did I ever say that I'm giving BEXP to a character that doesn't need it? And who actually pumps BEXP into Titania? Tell me, do you honestly think I meant that? Holy crap. I don't think anybody's done that unless they were bored.

Read uzy5o's post. He has the general idea of what I meant when I said there's other characters that would love that BEXP. Soren, Oscar, Boyd, Mist, Marcia...etc. They'd all love some BEXP to help them out in the next few chapters.

These characters go from good -> great. Rolf goes from shitty to decent.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Eltoshen

[uzy5o]

Ya seriously. I have no idea why Kuja blew my argument way out of proportion by mentioning Titania, and then two people actually thought that was a valid argument.

[Florete]

Uh...wtf? When and where did I ever say that I'm giving BEXP to a character that doesn't need it? And who actually pumps BEXP into Titania? Tell me, do you honestly think I meant that? Holy crap. I don't think anybody's done that unless they were bored.

Here:

No character is entitled to BEXP and the ones that get it generally are good and can become great.

Having Paladins/Valkyrie/Sage earlier > a decent archer.

Which isn't exactly "Toss BEXP on characters that don't need it" (Then again, I'm not the one who brought up giving it to Titania except in that one example), but assumes you're giving it to units who likely don't need it as much.

Read uzy5o's post. He has the general idea of what I meant when I said there's other characters that would love that BEXP. Soren, Oscar, Boyd, Mist, Marcia...etc. They'd all love some BEXP to help them out in the next few chapters.

These characters go from good -> great. Rolf goes from shitty to decent.

This is why Rolf is Bottom tier.

[Rodykitty]

Everyone should be assumed to get BEXP, even if they don't need it. The team becomes stronger either way. It'll be easier to tier characters this way since we can say, "Yeah, they're still winning stats".

[Dat Nick]

We're not arguing that Oscar/Boyd/Ike shouldn't get BEXP or that Titania should be blocked from EXP, that's just ridiculous.

It's being argued that giving her BEXP earlygame is a waste since she's still going to ORKO everything and never die and on top of that she's eating way more BEXP than anybody else to level. When other characters start catching up to her in both level and stats, then yeah, it's probably fair game to give her some.

[-Cynthia-]

BEXP is a waste for a longtime on Titania, but I think the point is there are a lot of non Rolf characters wanting BEXP, and thus him taking a significant amount (20% or w/e) is a blow to overall efficiency.

You know I'm really thinking Lucia>Rolf simply because she's much less resource intensive and her performance isn't that terrible, especially offensively.

Edited September 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

but I think the point is there are a lot of non Rolf characters wanting BEXP

Of course.

But on a normal team using Titania, earlygame Rolf would get a notable amount of extra BEXP than he would if we had shoveled BEXP into everybody equally, Titania included. It's improving his situation, so it's worth mentioning.

such as

Say a semi-ideal team by 10:

Ike

Oscar

Boyd

Marcia

Mist

Rolf

these guys get BEXP

Assuming max BEXP, Rolf is getting 50 not counting what he got in C9 [And he's forced so you can't really claim negative utility] making it probable he's leveling at least once. Ike also obviously doesn't get any once he level caps pre-promotion, just throwing that one out there.

10 is also a BEXP fest, so that helps him out a ton.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Joker

[Zkirsche]

You know I'm really thinking Lucia>Rolf simply because she's much less resource intensive and her performance isn't that terrible, especially offensively.

Him existing and being good for ~7 chapters before Lucia even exists makes him >> Lucia. I fail to see how being fixable < not being fixable.

[uzy5o]

This entire "Rolf is fixable" argument comes from the assumption that he can get a massive BEXP dump when he joins, ignoring the fact that it hurts your team significantly, probably more than Rolf will ever be able to compensate.

You know I'm really thinking Lucia>Rolf simply because she's much less resource intensive and her performance isn't that terrible, especially offensively.

I agree with this. You can't just say, Rolf is fixable, end of story, and ignore everything that was used to fix him.

[Dat Nick]

And on the flip side you can't just ignore that Rolf starts contributing more far sooner than Lucia does, and you have to ask yourself if Rolf is honestly getting that much favoritism: Now that we're not giving Titania BEXP anymore it's very possible he can make do with just his fair share.

I don't really care about this one, just saying that it needs to be considered further than [Rolf uses earlygame resources and Lucia doesn't, Lucia wins] because then you'd have to say that Lucia>Boyd because we "favored" Boyd, i.e by giving Boyd his fair share of BEXP.

[Zkirsche]

Fine then, we'll just give him 10% of the team's bexp supply, his rightful share, which means he uses 811 bexp by chapter 20. Say that's ~9 levels. This leaves Rofl to get an extra 11 levels in 12 chapters. Or a seal at level 20, reducing it to a mere 10 in 12 chapters. Considering how much exp Rofl gains from hitting/killing thigns thanks to being underlevelled, I'd say this is more than plausable. Now we have a unit in chapter 20 with high tier player phase offence. When does Lucia have said high tier player phase offence? Never, it's an upper mid, at best, performance, and considering her rather poor durability, this isn't exactly increasing when you consider an enemy phase, unless you call needing to be healed every turn efficient. S

[Dat Nick]

Fine then, we'll just give him 10% of the team's bexp supply

It's even more than 10% since it may take us a while to get 10 units fielded and it's possible that some [Mordy/Lethe/Ti] are too epic to want BEXP. If we're using Volke, he may level cap before C18 or whenever he promotes, I forget, which opens up more for Rolf.

Could we consider early-sealing him, too? He gets nice promo gains [2s across the board and extra move/crit], which means his period of suck can end sooner.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

Well promoting him at level 10, we get this.

26 HP, 11 Str, 14 Skill, 13 Speed, 7 Luck, 10 Def, 5 Res

This is already better than Shinon ;;>>

Growths?

HP: 60%, Str: 40%, Skill: 45%, Speed: 50%, Luck: 40%, Def: 30 %, Res: 25%

For reference, only real lead a level 20/1 Mia would have is like 5 HP and 2 Str, Rolf would be doubling anyways and his defensive stats wouldn't really mean dick due to his class.

I dunno, early sealing seems fun for Rolf. He'd easily be beating Mia up and down the place with a seal.

Supports are a bit troublesome for both. Rhys could basically support anyone. Illyana sort of dies in use sooner or later. On the other hand, at least Rolf has Marcia. Marcia has trouble finding a B at least at that time. Rhys is a bit of a backliner, wouldn't mind a B with Rolf anyways. Rolf can at least get +2 ATK, and it's all he cares for since he is a sniper.

However, I'm not sure how exactly to measure it. All I know is that Rolf can become better than Shinon quicker than one thinks with sealing.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

Everyone should be assumed to get BEXP, even if they don't need it. The team becomes stronger either way. It'll be easier to tier characters this way since we can say, "Yeah, they're still winning stats".

They already are. The point is, people like Titania don't need/want as much/any of it, and that leaves more open for other characters to use. Since Rolf comes at such a low level, giving him a good amount of BEXP is not a big deal. It's a negative for sure, but more along the lines of "I gave him a forge" negative than "I gave him two stat boosters" negative.

This entire "Rolf is fixable" argument comes from the assumption that he can get a massive BEXP dump when he joins, ignoring the fact that it hurts your team significantly, probably more than Rolf will ever be able to compensate.

Ugh.

Who's ignoring it? Please, show me where it's being ignored. I've said multiple times that there's a price involved.

And I don't see how it hurts your team "significantly" either, unless you can show that one less level for Ike will kill him.

I agree with this. You can't just say, Rolf is fixable, end of story, and ignore everything that was used to fix him.

At the same time, you can't just ignore the things he can use to get fixed.

[Rodykitty]

They already are. The point is, people like Titania don't need/want as much/any of it, and that leaves more open for other characters to use. Since Rolf comes at such a low level, giving him a good amount of BEXP is not a big deal. It's a negative for sure, but more along the lines of "I gave him a forge" negative than "I gave him two stat boosters" negative.

I am saying Titania/etc should be treated as wanting it as much as Rolf does, so that the issue of favortism is adverted while still showing that Rolf being able to get BEXP is still an advantage over characters like Lucia.

Yeah, Lucia can probably use BEXP too, but Rolf has much better availability with it.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Vykan12]

What are the changes since my last visit?

[Florete]

What are the changes since my last visit?

Not much. Off the top of my head:

Kieran and Jill > Oscar

Mist > Volke

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

What are the changes since my last visit?

Not much. Off the top of my head:

Kieran and Jill > Oscar

Mist > Volke

and Sothe up quite a bit

[Narga_Rocks]

Rolf needs: <= 725 bexp to get to level 9, by the way. You can't give him any in chapter 9, since he shows up after it starts and you don't get him in the base, and there's no point in chapter 10 since it's stealth. So in the chapter 11 base we have:

2880 bexp, assuming everyone escapes in chapter 6 and max deployment in chapter 8 and only 2 units escape in chapter 10.

~25%.

Of the top 11 units in the list, 5 of them aren't even available yet. If you have a team of 10 planned, and say 3 of those 5 units will be joining, then in chapter 11 that's only 7 units including Rolf or whatever unit is not Rolf but we are using instead.

2880 / 7 = 411 bexp.

Rolf needs less than 725 to reach level 9, assuming he gets taken to 99 exp in level 1 first then given 100 at a time to make it as cheap as possible. If he did anything in chapter 9, even a single chip, it's less.

(2880 - 725) / 6 = 359

Basically, Rolf is costing them an extra 52 bexp each. Many of them won't even be able to level anyway with that 52 depending on how close they are to a level.

That's also ignoring Titania and Lethe and Mordecai not wanting bexp anyway. Assume two of them will be used:

2880 / 5 = 576 each.

(2880 - 725) / 4 = 538 each.

So he might only cost each unit 38 bexp. Even less.

I'm not saying he gets it for free, or anything close to that. Just saying it seems some people are blowing the opportunity cost out of proportion. If someone better than Rolf was to be used instead of Rolf, he'd get his share of bexp. Since we use Rolf instead, he gets 576 just for being one of the units used. That's already enough for level 7. The extra bexp just pushes him up to level 9, and he may only need half of the extra 149 bexp because of action in chapter 9.

[Reikken]

5-600 bexp is more than enough to make Boyd a monster that can one-round ch 11's cavaliers for me. And other such things like that. Even "his share" (Rolf's) has a cost. No, there's nothing being blown out of proportion. If anything, it's understated.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Reikken

[Narga_Rocks]

5-600 bexp is more than enough to make Boyd a monster that can one-round ch 11's cavaliers for me. And other such things like that. Even "his share" (Rolf's) has a cost. No, there's nothing being blown out of proportion. If anything, it's understated.

Rolf isn't costing Boyd 500 bexp, he's costing him 38 to 52. That may not even give him a level, and even if it does he'd be a few kills away from getting that level anyway.

The only real "cost" is the same as it's always been: the deployment slot. If you didn't use Rolf, you could use another unit in his place and that unit would be getting the >500 bexp Rolf gets as his share anyway. But since we are using Rolf, we aren't seriously using that other unit anyway, since it will just be replaced later on anyway. Besides, going back to my original calculation with 7 units, fine, say we go ahead and use Rolf but for some reason give him nothing:

2880/6=480

The other units were already getting 411, so he's now costing them 69.

So now instead of a Rolf capable of actually doing something, the other 6 units have an extra 69 bexp and Rolf is trash at level 2 or something. I really think the team would be stronger if Rolf gets some and the others lose a bit. Giving Rolf extra instead of just his share is now the difference between 480 and 359, so that's 121 and at least a full level each, but really to make Rolf actually able to do something giving up 1 level shouldn't make the team significantly weaker. At least, not to the extent other people are claiming giving him the bexp will do.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

No, Reikken's right here. It might not make any difference if the experience is all spread out, but if concentrating is more efficient, wouldn't you do that?

[Dat Nick]

lemme just see if ive got this straight

When Rolf gets his fair share of BEXP it's favoritism

but when we give Boyd more than his share of BEXP it's not?

the hell?

[uzy5o]

Reikken never said anything about favouritism. He's saying that the team benefits more from putting a ton of BEXP on Boyd than on Rolf. At least that's how I interpret it.

...and that's basically what I have been trying to say for the last two pages.

[Dat Nick]

Reikken never said anything about favouritism. He's saying that the team benefits more from putting a ton of BEXP on Boyd than on Rolf.

And remind me when anybody ever said we were applying any more BEXP to Rolf than to anybody else.