FE9 Tier list v3

[Chiki]

The problem with that is that Ilyana/Zihark doesn't get to A rank until chapter 26 or something.

25, I believe, and Ilyana starts to truly shine at chapter 25. Siege tomes really become useful after that point.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

(Ike and Soren are not likely at all to ever be near each other)

Justify this. Ike absolutely wants to support Soren (at least up to B). It is his only +Atk option until B Reyson (C26), who he has even more difficulty staying near. Ike clearly would appreciate +Atk, considering that he has plenty of durability with an Oscar or Titania support and comes up short of 2HKOing frequently. If Soren is being trained, an Ike&Soren B Support seems like a no brainer. With that support, Soren leads Ilyana in avoid. But neither can be safely exposed to multiple enemies on enemy phase, so this seems pretty irrelevant.

Edit:

25, I believe, and Ilyana starts to truly shine at chapter 25. Siege tomes really become useful after that point.

Siege tomes really become useful starting in C20.

Edited June 19, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

Justify this. Ike absolutely wants to support Soren (at least up to B). It is his only +Atk option until B Reyson (C26), who he has even more difficulty staying near. Ike clearly would appreciate +Atk, considering that he has plenty of durability with an Oscar or Titania support and comes up short of 2HKOing frequently. If Soren is being trained, an Ike&Soren B Support seems like a no brainer. With that support, Soren leads Ilyana in avoid. But neither can be safely exposed to multiple enemies on enemy phase, so this seems pretty irrelevant.

8 - no support here.

9 - Ike either going to a) stay out of battle waiting for Marcia or b) rush to the castle after there are no enemies left. Soren is likely to just go west killing things on the beach for exp.

10 - Ike is rushing to the arrive tile.

11, 12, 13, 14 - All possible here, but remember it's only C support. Besides, Ike and Soren don't really do much at all in any of these chapters.

15 - Nothing here. I think this is where they can get B support for the first time.

16 - Seize

17 - Ike isn't really doing much in this chapter, due to mounts taking majority of the kills in 17-1 and 17-2 and Ike having to carry Leanne.

18 - As this chapter is likely to take a while, Ike can gain a move lead on Soren easily, but this is one of the few chapters where it's conceivable.

19 - Soren probably won't be getting much action in this chapter; he doesn't like the ballistae and the map is large with enemies spread out so it's hard to protect him.

20 - Assuming fliers take the shortcut to the arrive square, Ike and Soren aren't doing much at all in this chapter.

21 - Seize

22 - If we assume a siege tome clear, Ike isn't doing much at all. There aren't many enemies on this map iirc anyway.

23 - Seize

24 - Ike isn't, again, doing much at all in this chapter other than kill a few enemies. A flier will quickly complete it while your mounts go and get Savior.

25 - This is one map, where I concede the B support is handy, but it depends on your strategy I suppose. Personally, I carried Ike north to kill the boss in a round.

26 - Seize

27 - Seize

28 - Seize

29 - Ashnard.

There are only a couple chapters I can see where the B support is really handy, but that's all. In a lot of these chapters, where the B support bonus can be maintained, Ike isn't really doing much.

Ilyana and Zihark/Mia can take advantage of their A support in 23 (for Mia), 25, 26, 27, 28 and maybe even 29 to great effect.

Siege tomes really become useful starting in C20.

I meant useful for Soren and Ilyana, not a general statement. Calill is more likely to be doing the siege toming at first, due to a lack of Bolting/Blizzard. The chapter 16 Bolting costs a lot of turns.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

8 - no support here.

9 - Ike either going to a) stay out of battle waiting for Marcia or b) rush to the castle after there are no enemies left. Soren is likely to just go west killing things on the beach for exp.

10 - Ike is rushing to the arrive tile.

11, 12, 13, 14 - All possible here, but remember it's only C support. Besides, Ike and Soren don't really do much at all in any of these chapters.

15 - Nothing here. I think this is where they can get B support for the first time.

16 - Seize

17 - Ike isn't really doing much in this chapter, due to mounts taking majority of the kills in 17-1 and 17-2 and Ike having to carry Leanne.

18 - As this chapter is likely to take a while, Ike can gain a move lead on Soren easily, but this is one of the few chapters where it's conceivable.

19 - Soren probably won't be getting much action in this chapter; he doesn't like the ballistae and the map is large with enemies spread out so it's hard to protect him.

20 - Assuming fliers take the shortcut to the arrive square, Ike and Soren aren't doing much at all in this chapter.

21 - Seize

22 - If we assume a siege tome clear, Ike isn't doing much at all. There aren't many enemies on this map iirc anyway.

23 - Seize

24 - Ike isn't, again, doing much at all in this chapter other than kill a few enemies. A flier will quickly complete it while your mounts go and get Savior.

25 - This is one map, where I concede the B support is handy, but it depends on your strategy I suppose. Personally, I carried Ike north to kill the boss in a round.

26 - Seize

27 - Seize

28 - Seize

29 - Ashnard.

There are only a couple chapters I can see where the B support is really handy, but that's all. In a lot of these chapters, where the B support bonus can be maintained, Ike isn't really doing much.

Ilyana and Zihark/Mia can take advantage of their A support in 23 (for Mia), 25, 26, 27, 28 and maybe even 29 to great effect.

Corrections:

- Ike and Soren can do plenty in C13.

- There's plenty to do in C20. Ike and Soren can help get Rescue or Smite and Soren can siege Shiharam if he has C Fire or we have Bolting.

- In C22, Ike can support Soren for his siege contributions against Schaeffer.

- In C23, Ike can at least support Soren for a OHKO on a Ballista operator on turn 1. We might also want to ferry Soren forward to clear out subsequent Ballista operators and/or siege Petrine.

- C27 is not a seize map.

Hypocrisy:

You seem fond of pointing out the chapters where Ike and Soren aren't doing anything, yet you include chapters 26, 28, and Endgame as chapters where Ilyana and a Swordmaster can take advantage of their support. Be consistent.

Supports aren't terribly relevant for Soren and Ilyana, but if anything, Soren has the advantage in this department.

Edited June 19, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

- Ike and Soren can do plenty in C13.

It's a defense chapter with chokepoints so if anything, your mounted units will be getting most of the action.

- There's plenty to do in C20. Ike and Soren can help get Rescue or Smite and Soren can siege Shiharam if he has C Fire or we have Bolting.

Rescue is unlikely because it's relatively far away, so Soren and Ike will most likely go for Smite. I don't know what your definition of "plenty," is, but killing 4 enemies is far from plenty.

- In C22, Ike can support Soren for his siege contributions against Schaeffer.

He has 51 hp and 9 res. 1 attack is not going to make a difference at all.

- In C23, Ike can at least support Soren for a OHKO on a Ballista operator on turn 1. We might also want to ferry Soren forward to clear out subsequent Ballista operators and/or siege Petrine.

With a siege tome? On an archer? That's an incredible waste.

Marcia/Jill doesn't need help with a Full Guard, and dropping Soren where Petrine can be hit with a siege tome is ridiculously difficult on turn 3 due to the ballistae. Try and see for yourself. I tried it and decided to rely on a crit instead.

- C27 is not a seize map.

Sorry, Arrive. I always confuse that one with a seize chapter since I use Ike to seize it. Even so, there aren't many enemies at the starting point (you'll be ignoring the ones charging towards you on turn 1 since, well, there's no reason to unless you want exp since you can move away from their range easily).

You seem fond of pointing out the chapters where Ike and Soren aren't doing anything, yet you include chapters 26, 28, and Endgame as chapters where Ilyana and a Swordmaster can take advantage of their support. Be consistent.

26: Paladins, army of warriors etc. charging towards you. Mia and Ilyana helped kill warriors and paladins for Oscar, Kieran and Tanith.

28: Using up remaining siege tome uses and killing laguz nearby on turn 1 so they don't kill Reyson / units you use to shove and Smite.

Endgame: Siege tome on the Sage with Bolting along with Calill (extra might and hit for Ilyana). He's actually quite difficult to kill. Mia can also help bodyguard Reyson and such from tigers.

I'm not making this up; all of this is from personal experience.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[Colonel M]

I honestly was expecting Snowy to come in and whine about Mia and Ilyana.

I am left disappointed.

[aku chi]

It's a defense chapter with chokepoints so if anything, your mounted units will be getting most of the action.

C13 is a de facto rout chapter. Ike and Soren can participate in the rout.

He has 51 hp and 9 res. 1 attack is not going to make a difference at all.

It's tough to 2HKO Schaeffer, but Soren can pull it off. The Ike support can help.

With a siege tome? On an archer? That's an incredible waste.

Marcia/Jill doesn't need help with a Full Guard, and dropping Soren where Petrine can be hit with a siege tome is ridiculously difficult on turn 3 due to the ballistae. Try and see for yourself. I tried it and decided to rely on a crit instead.

Not everybody has a max-Mag Ike, silly. Killing Ballista operators to keep Reyson safe is important in a variety of 4-turn clears. Getting Soren in range to siege Petrine by turn 4 is also possible. "I'm not making this up; all of this is from personal experience."

Sorry, Arrive. I always confuse that one with a seize chapter since I use Ike to seize it. Even so, there aren't many enemies at the starting point (you'll be ignoring the ones charging towards you on turn 1 since, well, there's no reason to unless you want exp since you can move away from their range easily).

Well, it should be a seize chapter, considering that Ike needs to enter that door to reach the BK, but IS messed up. Anyways, there's plenty of chokepoint Generals for Soren and Ike to help clear in C27. There's also treasures (including Resolve) to ... liberate.

26: Paladins, army of warriors etc. charging towards you. Mia and Ilyana helped kill warriors and paladins for Oscar, Kieran and Tanith.

Considering that you're just using Mia and Ilyana as enemy bait, their combat hardly matters. Any combat after turn 1 is irrelevant to the clear.

28: Using up remaining siege tome uses and killing laguz nearby on turn 1 so they don't kill Reyson / units you use to shove and Smite.

The laguz are scattered about, so Ilyana isn't likely to be in range with her support. Soren actually has an easier time here, because Ike can move almost anywhere before he's rescued. Again, all combat after turn 1 is irrelevant.

Endgame: Siege tome on the Sage with Bolting along with Calill (extra might and hit for Ilyana). He's actually quite difficult to kill. Mia can also help bodyguard Reyson and such from tigers.

This is the last chapter, so it doesn't even matter if Ilyana, Mia, or Reyson die on turn 1 of enemy phase.

Big Picture: Anytime Ilyana is just receiving an offensive advantage from her support is a time when Soren has more Atk without any supports at all. Anytime Soren is in range with his Ike support is just another advantage for Soren. The defensive benefits from Ilyana's support are relevant in vanishingly few situations. Supports are almost a complete non-issue in Soren vs. Ilyana. This is my last post on the subject. Let's talk about something relevant, instead.

[Chiki]

C13 is a de facto rout chapter. Ike and Soren can participate in the rout.

They'll be getting a few kills at most, since your mounted units will reach the chokepoints first (Ike has to get Astrid on turn 2). Even if it was useful, it's only a C support.

It's tough to 2HKO Schaeffer, but Soren can pull it off. The Ike support can help.

With an Ike support, Soren will have to be a level 6 Sage. Doesn't seem likely at all, and I think we can both agree that it's a stretch.

Not everybody has a max-Mag Ike, silly. Killing Ballista operators to keep Reyson safe is important in a variety of 4-turn clears. Getting Soren in range to siege Petrine by turn 4 is also possible. "I'm not making this up; all of this is from personal experience."

I did say "dropping Soren on turn 3" so I was obviously not referring to my playthrough. Tanith/Haar/Jill would have to carry Soren that far, and they won't have an easy time with enemy units blocking your advance, and a 44 might ballista.

Well, it should be a seize chapter, considering that Ike needs to enter that door to reach the BK, but IS messed up. Anyways, there's plenty of chokepoint Generals for Soren and Ike to help clear in C27. There's also treasures (including Resolve) to ... liberate.

Seems to make more sense for mounted units to go after Resolve. By plenty you mean a couple chokepoint Generals. No one cares about the ones walking towards you.

Considering that you're just using Mia and Ilyana as enemy bait, their combat hardly matters. Any combat after turn 1 is irrelevant to the clear.

They kind of have to survive the enemy phase. >_>

The laguz are scattered about, so Ilyana isn't likely to be in range with her support. Soren actually has an easier time here, because Ike can move almost anywhere before he's rescued. Again, all combat after turn 1 is irrelevant.

You mean rescued on turn 1 by a flier, making Ike and Soren's support 100% irrelevant. Enemies near the starting point do have to be cleared out since they have 9 move and can potentially reach Reyson, Mordecai and your other Smite user.

This is the last chapter, so it doesn't even matter if Ilyana, Mia, or Reyson die on turn 1 of enemy phase.

Is this even allowed in a tier list debate?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

Is this even allowed in a tier list debate?

Well, it's not very common, but I've heard arguments like this before. I understand that Interceptor is fond of giving Muarim Wrath and Resolve and using him as a combat unit in Chapter 4-4, and basically every enemy in the world has crit on him so he has a reasonable chance of dying, but neither Muarim or those skills are really needed for anything afterwards.

[Snowy_One]

I have heard those arguments as well in the past as well as both opinions. It largely comes down to how strongly you believe the tier list criteria (in this case, low turn counts) matter. If they are the be-all, end-all of the list and unit survival is not among the ranking requirements, then yes it's legal. If they serve as less absolute guide-lines however than the argument can be disqualified as it is intentionally allowing a unit to die to achieve a non-concrete goal. Technically there is no requirement for any unit who is not Ike or otherwise essential to survive the game after all and, when using LTC as an absolute measuring stick, sacrificing a chapter or two of the end game where a unit wouldn't be capable of doing anything of value for one extra turn of hasty completion earlier on is valid, though it is understandable why this leaves a bad taste in most peoples mouths.

Just thought I would comment on that as a pesudo-history lesson. Not getting involved in a LTC debate ever again.

Not that it matters but I believe Soren > Ilyana, mainly for the earlier join time though as both will be using thunder ASAP making Soren's wind lead moot and Ilyana's speed can actually be equal/superior for a short time and a magic lead is largely useless since both attack RES which is basically like an additional 4-7 MT on their weapons (and neither has a shabby MAG stat).

[Lord Raven]

Not that it matters but I believe Soren > Ilyana

and nothing new was added to the discussion

but personally i don't care if units die for the purposes of this tier list, but i don't think any efficient strategy actually centers around it happening. It's not really necessary to bring up or argue.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Zkirsche]

Even ignoring those points, training Soren could potentially cost turns in C4, C6 and C7.

I fail to see how soren getting a few potshots in could possibly slow us down if our teammates are cleaning up afterwards.

And honestly I think you're vastly underestimating how bad Ilyana's stats are compared to sorens. If Soren gets to level 6 by chapter 8, which is very possible because a potshot gives him tonnes of exp and we have BEXP on top of that, soren has very comparable stats to ilyana, and arguably better ones to boot. Ok its likely she has 1 more strength but she uses heavier tomes. Soren has 2 flat speed on her, which will translate to a 3 AS lead if Ilyana uses thunder and Soren uses wind. If Soren uses thunder as well, they will have the same AS. In terms of durability, Soren has more hp and Ilyana has more def, both leads are negligable. On top of that Soren has adept for even better offensive capabilities AND has the better growths (+10% Spd and +10% Mag versus +20% str and +15% Luck, magic and speed obviously being more important.)

Ok with a Zihark support Ilyana has very good avoid, but then we're fielding two mid tier 7-Mov units that ultimately get less and less action the longer the game goes on. And if we wanted a siege bot then training either is a waste as Calill does it just as well without draining resources from the previous chapters. Also Ilyana still loses 3-4 AS from bolting even by the endgame, and her speed wasn't exactly stellar before, so you might as well use Soren for dealing more damage in one hit because Ilyana is not doubling.

[Lord Raven]

Oh wow I didn't see Aeine's posts

No, Soren's existence saves turns more than it costs turns. Without Soren on my team I think I'd have 1-2 more turns than I had, especially since one of the chapters is a rout map. It's easy to get him to Level 5 by Chapter 7 or something just having him and Boyd hang back, and he doubles like a quarter of the units in the defense map.

[Chiki]

And honestly I think you're vastly underestimating how bad Ilyana's stats are compared to sorens. If Soren gets to level 6 by chapter 8, which is very possible because a potshot gives him tonnes of exp and we have BEXP on top of that, soren has very comparable stats to ilyana, and arguably better ones to boot. Ok its likely she has 1 more strength but she uses heavier tomes. Soren has 2 flat speed on her, which will translate to a 3 AS lead if Ilyana uses thunder and Soren uses wind. If Soren uses thunder as well, they will have the same AS. In terms of durability, Soren has more hp and Ilyana has more def, both leads are negligable. On top of that Soren has adept for even better offensive capabilities AND has the better growths (+10% Spd and +10% Mag versus +20% str and +15% Luck, magic and speed obviously being more important.)

Ok with a Zihark support Ilyana has very good avoid, but then we're fielding two mid tier 7-Mov units that ultimately get less and less action the longer the game goes on. And if we wanted a siege bot then training either is a waste as Calill does it just as well without draining resources from the previous chapters. Also Ilyana still loses 3-4 AS from bolting even by the endgame, and her speed wasn't exactly stellar before, so you might as well use Soren for dealing more damage in one hit because Ilyana is not doubling.

Soren has 2-3 more magic than Ilyana. I don't know what your definition of bad is, but that's not much of a difference, especially with forged Thunder tomes.

.....Do you assume that the player is only going to be using mounted units in this game? There's no problem fielding one 6 move unit and one 7 move unit in.. any chapter. Also, tier lists don't mean too much when it comes to who we're going to train. For example, Mordecai is an upper-mid tier when he's mainly useful early on and due to his Smite skill.

Oh wow I didn't see Aeine's posts

No, Soren's existence saves turns more than it costs turns. Without Soren on my team I think I'd have 1-2 more turns than I had, especially since one of the chapters is a rout map. It's easy to get him to Level 5 by Chapter 7 or something just having him and Boyd hang back, and he doubles like a quarter of the units in the defense map.

Think about it logically; how does a unit with chip damage and 5 move ever help you cut turns? I can't even fathom such a thing.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Aeine

[Shotguner159]

Think about it logically; how does a unit with chip damage and 5 move ever help you cut turns? I can't even fathom such a thing.

By killing a weakened enemy who might move to get healing next turn, or weakening an enemy so we can kill it faster, and use a unit we saved by having Soren weaken it, to do something else.

[Chiki]

By killing a weakened enemy who might move to get healing next turn, or weakening an enemy so we can kill it faster, and use a unit we saved by having Soren weaken it, to do something else.

According to aku chi's LTC strategies (just returning the favor), no earlygame chapter cares about Soren. Not even 7, the rout chapter.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

Soren helped a lot with a rout map (the one where Shinon/Gatrie rejoined) and he helped with some chip in Chapter 4. They don't "rely" on him, but he's far more useful than fucking Ilyana.

Source: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27723

He's also never a hindrance early on. His low durability is easy to take care of, very easy; you just don't put him in range. He can attack from behind. In some chapters (Chapter 6 comes to mind), he can literally sit back and be defended by a unit because said unit barely does anything. In chapter 4, he can get some easy EXP or he can make the west easy to take care of.

Ike, Boyd, Oscar etc suck until BEXP. Soren helps them kill something together.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Snowy_One]

I'm curious. Is Aku Chi's LTC strategies the ONLY way to play efficiently? Are they the only strategies out there?

[Chiki]

I'm curious. Is Aku Chi's LTC strategies the ONLY way to play efficiently? Are they the only strategies out there?

There's also this thread but when you play efficiently, usually, there's only a handful of strats you can do to get the lowest possible turns.

[aku chi]

I'm curious. Is Aku Chi's LTC strategies the ONLY way to play efficiently? Are they the only strategies out there?

Of course not. My goal was/is to find the strategies with the fastest clears and the highest reliability. Sometimes, clears require outrageous or unusual requirements, in which case I tried to find an efficient clear with relatively few requirements. And not all chapters were treated equally. I was much more thorough in chapters 10 and 15 than I was in chapter 7. Chapter 7 was particularly difficult to experiment with because it's the last chapter before base and a rout to boot. Sometimes, Ike, Oscar, and/or Boyd won't have the stats to accomplish what they did in my 5-turn clear. It doesn't take much imagination to envision situations where Soren can contribute to a 5 or 6-turn completion of chapter 7. It just so happened that he was unnecessary in my playthrough.

Moreover, the efficiency goals of this tier list are not the same as the goals of a LTC playthrough. I believe this tier list should consider efficient clears with non-optimal deployment. It should certainly consider playthroughs with any subset of Marcia and Jill being recruited and trained (especially because both units have costly recruitment).

[Snowy_One]

I see. That's what's confusing me as, for a moment, it sounded like people were considering only a few specific set plans as viable at which point Soren could be discounted. IMO, even when looking at it from a 'LTC' standpoint, as many possible team combinations should be considered including, *le gasp*, combinations with no Boyd, Oscar, or Titania. I mean the contributions of units can still be measured in turn-count reductions right? And we DO have to consider sub-optimal deployments, right? After all, this list doesn't exist to simply find the way and team that can beat the game in the lowest possible turncount (or else there would be no meaning in measuring the majority of the list as they wouldn't help), right?

[GreatEclipse]

I see. That's what's confusing me as, for a moment, it sounded like people were considering only a few specific set plans as viable at which point Soren could be discounted. IMO, even when looking at it from a 'LTC' standpoint, as many possible team combinations should be considered including, *le gasp*, combinations with no Boyd, Oscar, or Titania. I mean the contributions of units can still be measured in turn-count reductions right? And we DO have to consider sub-optimal deployments, right? After all, this list doesn't exist to simply find the way and team that can beat the game in the lowest possible turncount (or else there would be no meaning in measuring the majority of the list as they wouldn't help), right?

No consensus was ever reached on this point, actually. The most logically consistent standards are:

1) An "optimal" team using optimal tactics is the only possibility considered, as it is most consistent with the goals of the list.

2) Everyone is equally likely to be in play, no one is punished for denying the use of another, better unit in their place.

They are mutually incompatible and produce radically different lists when taken to their logical conclusion, which almost no one ever actually goes through with because it produces counter-intuitive/absurd results (depending on how you look at it), and so people apply them arbitrarily on a unit-by-unit basis when it helps them reach their pre-set conclusions.

Edited July 7, 2012 by GreatEclipse

[aku chi]

No consensus was ever reached on this point, actually. The most logically consistent standards are:

1) An "optimal" team using optimal tactics is the only possibility considered, as it is most consistent with the goals of the list.

2) Everyone is equally likely to be in play, no one is punished for denying the use of another, better unit in their place.

They are mutually incompatible and produce radically different lists when taken to their logical conclusion, which almost no one ever actually goes through with because it produces counter-intuitive/absurd results (depending on how you look at it), and so people apply them arbitrarily on a unit-by-unit basis when it helps them reach their per-set conclusions.

I fully support the second standard because it increases the scope of discussion and still answers the tier list's fundamental question: 'how much can this unit contribute in an efficient playthrough'. I don't believe it leads to any absurd conclusions. Theoretically, for example, Zihark could be the unit with the most movement in C16, but that would require none of {Titania, Oscar, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Kieran, Jill, Astrid, Makalov, Muarim} to be in play - a likelihood so small as to be irrelevant when considering Zihark's potential contributions.

[GreatEclipse]

I fully support the second standard because it increases the scope of discussion and still answers the tier list's fundamental question: 'how much can this unit contribute in an efficient playthrough'. I don't believe it leads to any absurd conclusions. Theoretically, for example, Zihark could be the unit with the most movement in C16, but that would require none of {Titania, Oscar, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Kieran, Jill, Astrid, Makalov, Muarim} to be in play - a likelihood so small as to be irrelevant when considering Zihark's potential contributions.

The problem the second standard (Formally known as the gross system) ran into was that units who gave a mediocre performance from chapter 1 all the way to final come out better than pre-promotes who join around 3/4th of the way in and are amazing for the whole of their existence, because to account for what could have been accomplished had said mediocre growth unit been replaced with someone else would be to invoke the first standard (Known as the net system). Someone would need to be so bad that trying to use them actively worked against you in absolute terms for availability to not be an unconditional benefit, and that is unlikely to be the case for anyone in this game at least.

A second, much less discussed, problem is that if everyone is equally likely to be in play, then no good reason exists to assume that the lowest turn strategies are being used, because those are premised on the best units being in play. This does not result in units being impossible to tier, because you can still put Titania above Soren for having the potential to help achieve a lower turn count, even if it is up in the air whether that particular turn count with be achieved. However, when comparing Soren to, say, Ilyana, you no reason to assume (Or not to assume) that the preceding chapters were a Titania stomp, because the player, despite the apparent assumption that he/she desires clearing in fewer turns than more whenever possible, is under no obligation to give Titania even a single kill for the entirety of the game. This has profound implications for how fast units in Soren's position can be expected to grow, and it creates a huge number of other problems as well. For example, if an optimal team can clear X chapter in 6 turns with optimal tactics, and a sub-optimal team can clear that same chapter in 8 with equally optimal tactics, and both outcomes are considered acceptable by the list, then why should an 8 turn clear with the optimal team, using sub-optimal tactics, not also be considered an acceptable outcome? Attempts have been made to draw a distinction between "Normal Efficiency" and "Maximum Efficiency", but any dividing line that is drawn is sure to be completely arbitrary.

Edit: Another problem I forgot to mention. If no one team of units is inherently favored by the list over any other, then controlling the quantity of units assumed to be in play is just as impossible as controlling the quality. Ike and Titania vs. the world is just as valid for consideration as a 12 man team, as is something akin to an FE4 ranked run.

Mind you, I would argue the first standard is even worse, as it not only makes many units equally worthless, but makes some better than others for hilariously trivial reasons (Ex. Wolt vs. Fir). And this is all before the philosophical problems inherent in very concept of "Efficiency", as economists understand it, are even brought up.

Edited July 7, 2012 by GreatEclipse

[aku chi]

The problem the second standard (Formally known as the gross system) ran into was that units who gave a mediocre performance from chapter 1 all the way to final come out better than pre-promotes who join around 3/4th of the way in and are amazing for the whole of their existence, because to account for what could have been accomplished had said mediocre growth unit been replaced with someone else would be to invoke the first standard (Known as the net system). Someone would need to be so bad that trying to use them actively worked against you in absolute terms for availability to not be an unconditional benefit, and that is unlikely to be the case for anyone in this game at least.

I consider that a feature, not a bug. I do believe Mia can contribute more towards completing the game than Haar even though Haar is considerably better in their shared availability. Mia has many chapters, including several routs, during which she can contribute and Haar cannot. It's not an easy comparison (many chapters of okay performance vs. a few chapters of great performance), but it's a hell of a lot more meaningful than presuming that Mia will rarely be used because Titania, Oscar, and Marcia are unilaterally stomping the game.

A second, much less discussed, problem is that if everyone is equally likely to be in play, then no good reason exists to assume that the lowest turn strategies are being used, because those are premised on the best units being in play. This does not result in units being impossible to tier, because you can still put Titania above Soren for having the potential to help achieve a lower turn count, even if it is up in the air whether that particular turn count with be achieved. However, when comparing Soren to, say, Ilyana, you no reason to assume (Or not to assume) that the preceding chapters were a Titania stomp, because the player, despite the apparent assumption that he/she desires clearing in fewer turns than more whenever possible, is under no obligation to give Titania even a single kill for the entirety of the game.

1) Titania is obviously more valuable than Soren no matter what the rest of the team is. However, your general point it valid. How valuable Jill is depends substantially on whether Marcia is deployed and trained. If Marcia is always assumed to be trained and in play, Oscar > Jill seems a likely conclusion. If Marica is never in play, Jill > Oscar is even more likely. If Marcia's likelihood of being in play and/or trained is not assumed, Oscar vs. Jill is an unusual and challenging comparison. Seeing as tier lists should generate meaningful discussion, the relevant question is whether efficiency runs where Marcia isn't trained are meaningful. I believe they are.

2) Concerning the first nine chapters, where all units have free deployment, I'm not sure if it makes sense to consider runs where they aren't used. I'm not sure, therefore, whether it is within the scope of this tier list to consider runs where Titania is not used in chapters 1-9. I'd be willing to submit that units with free deployment are assumed to be used (no matter what unit is being considered).

This has profound implications for how fast units in Soren's position can be expected to grow,

Point taken. If we can't assume that Marcia will be trained and used, Soren might have either 2 or 8-9 turns of combat in C12. If this were any other FE game, this would be a bigger problem. As it is, plentiful Bexp can negate the importance of an extra level or two or Cexp here and there.

and it creates a huge number of other problems as well. For example, if an optimal team can clear X chapter in 6 turns with optimal tactics, and a sub-optimal team can clear that same chapter in 8 with equally optimal tactics, and both outcomes are considered acceptable by the list, then why should an 8 turn clear with the optimal team, using sub-optimal tactics, not also be considered an acceptable outcome? Attempts have been made to draw a distinction between "Normal Efficiency" and "Maximum Efficiency", but any dividing line that is drawn is sure to be completely arbitrary.

This doesn't make any sense. The tier list's criteria is efficient play. At a bare minimum, this must constrain how we assume chapters are played. Given a set of deployed units, the tier list player will use those players to efficiently complete the chapter and game. There's obviously some room for debating the applied meaning of the phrase "efficiently complete", but it certainly excludes taking additional time/turns or sacrificing reliability for gains that don't play for themselves later in either time/turns or reliability.

Edit: Another problem I forgot to mention. If no one team of units is inherently favored by the list over any other, then controlling the quantity of units assumed to be in play is just as impossible as controlling the quality. Ike and Titania vs. the world is just as valid for consideration as a 12 man team, as is something akin to an FE4 ranked run.

Well, the tier list assumptions could be set up in such a way that all deployment slots will be filled, but the unit that fills each deployment slot is random (with the obvious exception of the unit being tiered).