FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

In that case, I argue Boyd > Kieran.

Boyd is around longer than Kieran and can always "chip" a unit at least once every chapter.

That might be true if Boyd had more movement than Kieran during their shared lifespan, as Rolf does in comparison to Bastian.

See I can make retarded devil's advocate arguments too. Not like it matters, since the only thing you're arguing is that Rolf's shit for chip is better than a unit that still costs a forge at most.

And what does Rolf "cost"? Because I'm not giving him any BEXP, or anything aside from forges.

Oh yeah, that Brave Bow. If we're denying Bastian his siege tomes, I see no reason why I can allow Rolf to have either the Laguz Bow or the Brave Bow. Or any weapon. Since, well, Astrid and Shinon can use those bows too!

Shinon is highly unlikely to be used...

Sure you did. You lost time putting up with Rolf. If we're accounting for chip being the main reason I can raise Rolf, why not penalize him for the amount of time I have to move him to do little-to-nothing while I'm at it!

Well, that's fine. But I was under the impression that efficiency lists weren't based on the amount of physical time taken. If that's the case, then a lot of other units who don't save time will have to move down, such as Brom and Mia.

I can make Rolf's Chapter 9 performance insignificant too.

Here, let me just accidentally toss his Bow. Or shove him in a corner. Or have someone carry him! Hey, I'll let Titania carry him! That way the enemies will be kept alive and there's CEXP for everyone!

I don't get what your point is, or why you're acting so dumb. I have never attempted to sandbag Bastian by assuming he doesn't get a weapon, nor have I ever suggested such a thing. I get the impression you are trying to make a strawman, but I cannot see even the slightest passing resemblance between your strawman argument and my own. And perhaps the most ridiculous thing is that you are objecting to my claim that Bastian doesn't do anything in Chapter 9. How is this upsetting you?

Ah, but Tormod doesn't exist early enough! What about Soren and Ilyana!?! They exist much earlier than Tormod, and they chip for a longer time too!

That might be a relevant argument if Soren and Ilyana had more movement than Tormod.

They do not.

Except they aren't similar.

Really? Because I've posted matchups and comparisons that show pretty clearly that Rolf is about even with Bastian in terms of combat and dealing damage, if not slightly ahead since he has options like the Brave Bow and his innate critical rate. And obviously Rolf has more movement.

Rolf's chips are so insignificant because they do pitiful damage on most enemies.

Which is why I have described them as "infinitesimal". Repeatedly.

Bastian's chips are almost pointless, except that at least he can use siege tomes to back out of his rut and damages enemies harder in his frame than Rolf did in his framespan.

What is this shit? A cross-chapter comparison? I couldn't care less if Bastian in Chapter 25 is better than Rolf in Chapter 9 because Rolf is also in Chapter 25. You really don't have any cogent argument aside from "omg siege tomes rolf sucks".

Except to be plain better than Bastian, you have to do something other than chip for insignificant damage.

Yes, you would like, have to have better combat and mobility than him oh wait.

Like I said, the midgame chip is not significant. I have NEVER said it was significant. However, it makes an adequate tiebreaker between two units who are similar, and yes, they are similar, I don't give a flying fuck about Bastian being able to waste siege tome uses.

I see the word need.

That means you're either suggesting it or hinting to suggest it.

I was wrong to say that; he does not need BEXP. Indeed, no character in this game needs it.

I still have to deploy Merlinus, and if I am to retain the weapon I buy from the shop, he might need to be protected.

Uh, I thought that when he died you didn't actually lose anything?

Nevermind that Merlinus isn't a unit in FE7. Otherwise, forts are too!

Tell me when forts gain levels, move, have inventories, have supports, can engage in combat, have stats, can make actions, and show up in the Unit screen which provides a list of units.

Shitty strawman. Again.

Hey what if Rolf only chipped only once per chapter? I guess he's not better than Bastian statistically is he?

If Nephenee never engaged in combat, she would be a terrible, dare I say, a useless unit. Part of the operating principle of the tier list is that when we have opportunities to attack, we will. Of course, your whole idiotic argument is predicated on the assumption that Rolf will never do anything and chillax in a corner for the entire game because it's too much "effort" to move him.

Sure he is. He never had to train to get to his level (well the player didn't have to train Bastian anyway).

Except that that "training" is free. In other words, the training you take with Rolf has /no opportunity cost/ since there is nothing you can do to an enemy that Rolf hasn't chipped that you could not do to an enemy Rolf has chipped.

Personally, I would define "effort" at the moment as "pointless conversation between now two people playing devil's advocate".

I am not playing devil's advocate. What confuses me is that you, a normally seemingly reasonable and sane person, could pull out all these ridiculous shitty strawmen and arguments. I guess when you're defending one of the Sacred Holy Axioms of FE9 Tier Lists, which is that Rolf is some kind of singularity of awfulness, actual facts can't be allowed to get in the way. Why not put Rolf at the bottom, hmm? After all, according to you he does literally nothing. According to you, the best way to use Rolf is to literally never have him make an action, because even to view his move range for a single frame is a tragic waste of our oh-so-valuable time.

You say you're only pretending to be stupid for the sake of the argument. I admit I was fooled.

What a disappointing reply.

Anouleth's argument:

Premise: Rolf can get to 20/2 by C24 with no Bexp.

Premise: 20/2 Rolf is at least as valuable as base Bastian in their shared availability.

Conclusion: Rolf > Bastian

Your red herrings:

- Giving Rolf Bexp is inefficient and costly. This is irrelevant, because Anouleth's argument does not involve giving Rolf Bexp.

- Training Rolf without giving him Bexp is somehow costly. How can this be, when deployment is assumed no cost, and the only resources we're giving Rolf are free and generic bows (effectively costless)? So long as we don't slow down, or expose Rolf to an enemy on enemy phase, Rolf cannot be hurting our efforts. His utility in the chapters before Bastian shows up is greater than or equal to zero.

- Anouleth's argument would imply Boyd > Kieran (and such). This is false because Kieran dominates Boyd in their shared availability and thus fails the second premise of Anouleth's argument.

What you should be arguing:

Either (1) Rolf cannot reach 20/2 by C24 in an efficient playthrough without Bexp or (2) Base Bastian is more valuable in his chapters than a 20/2 Rolf.

Actually, I was arguing Chapter 25. I really doubt Bastian is going to gain a level in Chapter 24, and it's not really an important chapter anyway.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Anouleth

[Snowy_One]

Why do people keep saying that Rolf's chips suck? He's almost identical to Astrid for crying out loud! Unless Astrid also outright sucks at combat, Rolf won't either. The only difference between them (as far as combat goes) is that Astrid can get axes and Rolf can't. Bastion is stuck being sucky unless he's given stat-items. When it comes to chipping, Rolf can double and Bastion will have trouble. When it comes to combat Rolf will have both critical-kills and the ability to double (not to mention some durability) while Bastion is frail and heaven forbid Rolf gets enough MT to 1RKO! Rolf has joining time while Bastion does not. The only reason to rank Bastion as higher would be if Rolf was so sucky as to not be good even when leveled, but when he's leveled he's pretty much as good as a high-tier combat unit! So why is Bastion better again? 0 cost does not a good unit make or a bad unit redeem. Would you rather work for a below average drink, or be punched for free?

[Lord Raven]

but but but

astrid gains axes on promotion and takes a lot less time to level (she takes less than like 1100-1200 BEXP or something to get to 20/1)

rolf sucks shit at all times

dont you dare compare the two, rolf is nowhere near as good as post-promotion astrid or pre-promotion astrid

[dondon151]

Oh, just shut up. We get it. Rolf is bad. I am not denying that he's bad. The question is whether he is worse than Bastian. And no, he isn't. Bastian does nothing for those fifteen chapters. Rolf chips. Chipping is better than nothing.

uh it really isn't, especially in a game like FE9 where chipping at a range less than that of a paladin's movement is essentially worthless

for that matter i don't really appreciate the hypocrisy going on with respect to how BEXP distribution is treated; at one point someone claims that there's too much of a cost to giving marcia a massive BEXP bukkake (thus preventing any argument where marcia or jill > titania) and then all of a sudden there's too much BEXP available and rolf can get some for practically free.

so which one is it hmmm

also bullshit on getting rolf to 20/2 by endgame with absolutely no BEXP investment

[GreatEclipse]

Chipping at a range less than a Paladin's movement is only worthless if you assume that the player is always advancing to the full extent possible at all times (AKA, a dreaded "max efficiency" run). If that is not the kind of run that is being assumed, there is no reason to think Rolf or anyone else for that matter cannot get to any particular level physically possible at any point in time, because once you allow the player to move at a slower pace than what is physically possible, there is no inherent reason to demand one final turn count over another. Any number you settle on as "sufficiently efficient" will be completely arbitrary and therefore non-binding on any player who chooses not to accept it.

Edited May 9, 2012 by GreatEclipse

[Snowy_One]

but but but

astrid gains axes on promotion and takes a lot less time to level (she takes less than like 1100-1200 BEXP or something to get to 20/1)

rolf sucks shit at all times

dont you dare compare the two, rolf is nowhere near as good as post-promotion astrid or pre-promotion astrid

The steel bow has only two less MT than the steel axe. Also, Astrid may level faster, but she also joins at level 1 in chapter 13. Rolf will have a level lead on her. However, I won't deny that Astrid will probably be the highest-leveled party-member before long. I even said that earlier. What I am saying is that, when at equal levels, Rolf and Astrid are near-identical in terms of stats, so calling Rolf sucky is the same as calling Astrid sucky.

Also, pre-promotion, only thing Astrid has on Rolf is movement. Like I said, they're near-identical stat-wise and she won't have axes yet. In fact, I might even say Rolf wins since he can use more bows and Astrid won't likely be rushing into frays with her bows.

[Shadow Mir]

In fact, I might even say Rolf wins since he can use more bows and Astrid won't likely be rushing into frays with her bows.

That's implying that Rolf can get to C rank in 4 chapters (and I find such a claim rather doubtful).

Edited May 9, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Colonel M]

What a disappointing reply.

As is about 75% of your replies thus far.

Anouleth's Blue Herrings:

Premise: Rolf can get to 20/2 by C24 with no Bexp.

Premise: 20/2 Rolf is at least as valuable as base Bastian in their shared availability.

Conclusion: Rolf > Bastian

Except if you missed a certain quote:

Speaking as someone who has actually used Rolf, he does not need /that/ much BEXP. He needs a lot, that's true...

Anouleth's first premise is already gone.

That leave Premise #2.

Your red herrings:

- Giving Rolf Bexp is inefficient and costly. This is irrelevant, because Anouleth's argument does not involve giving Rolf Bexp.

Which was covered above.

- Training Rolf without giving him Bexp is somehow costly. How can this be, when deployment is assumed no cost, and the only resources we're giving Rolf are free and generic bows (effectively costless)? So long as we don't slow down, or expose Rolf to an enemy on enemy phase, Rolf cannot be hurting our efforts. His utility in the chapters before Bastian shows up is greater than or equal to zero.

I can make shit look more valuable than a pile of toilet paper, but you don't see me trying to argue this either, do I?

Even if Rolf never "hurts" our efforts, that assumes that I'm also giving Rolf "protection", which still requires "effort". His utility, if you can even jokingly call it utility, is worth equal to zero. Nothing more.

- Anouleth's argument would imply Boyd > Kieran (and such). This is false because Kieran dominates Boyd in their shared availability and thus fails the second premise of Anouleth's argument.

Except, Anouleth didn't even mention Movement as part of his argument until the last post before mine. Even then:

- Why isn't Rolf over Tauroneo, Brom, Gatrie, Shinon, Devdan, Largo, and Elincia then?

If you value "chip" so much over Bastian, then what stops the hyperbole there? The first three are Armor Knights which have the worst Move. Shinon only has "good chip" for a whopping 3 chapters. Devdan is 7 chapters behind Rolf's so-called "contributions", Largo is 18 chapters, and Elincia is 19.

If you're going to stick with this so-called "chip" hyperbole, which was pointed out that Anouleth isn't using it as a devil's advocate, then stay consistent with the page or don't bother with it at all. I highly recommend the latter, since Rolf's contributions still can net a negative since it's one more unit I have to sit and babysit on the battlefield. Nevermind that if we go with "God-Paladin-speed", Rolf is probably getting a hit on Turn 1, maybe 2 tops, and with his damage output, probably not even worth selecting the cursor over him, moving him to attack range, and watching the map animation.

What you should be arguing:

Either (1) Rolf cannot reach 20/2 by C24 in an efficient playthrough without Bexp

Well that's easy. I don't even need to argue it. The proof is in his stats and the team around him.

or (2) Base Bastian is more valuable in his chapters than a 20/2 Rolf.

Well considering I didn't have to painfully shoot myself in the knee using Bastian beforehand to get something that at least 3HKOes enemies and can attack at 3-10 range... I don't think this even requires an argument. Yet for some reason it does.

Chipping at a range less than a Paladin's movement is only worthless if you assume that the player is always advancing to the full extent possible at all times

Even accepting that concept.

Tell me when it's worthwhile.

At least in Rolf's case.

And what does Rolf "cost"? Because I'm not giving him any BEXP, or anything aside from forges.

Technically, it's still a cost.

But, forges aren't really something to sandbag (well unless it's early on...). Not giving him BEXP probably hurts your case even more than giving it to him, but either way: rat trapped in a hole is good enough for me.

That might be true if Boyd had more movement than Kieran during their shared lifespan, as Rolf does in comparison to Bastian.

Sure, except:

1) Boyd can always chip for roughly 9 chapters beforehand and doesn't have any movement competition beforehand aside from Oscar and Titania.

2) Rolf only wins Movement by a single point. And they both still lose to the usual Paladin brigade.

But, Bastian still gets a cheat card - he gets siege tomes, which doesn't necessarily require high movement to use. It's an added benefit, but nothing spectacular. Though, yes, its uses are limited.

Oh yeah, I did miss something: Stilleto can ORKO a Bishop in 25. Not that it seriously matters, of course.

Shinon is highly unlikely to be used...

Irrelevant. Shinon can still take that resource and use it, can he not? Soren and Ilyana are highly unlikely to be used, and Tormod is "unlikely" to be used. So why are we sandbagging siege tomes on Bastian again? Because Callil can use it? Okay, now who else can use them that doesn't likely require BEXP and Arms Scrolls?

Hmmmmmm....

Well, that's fine. But I was under the impression that efficiency lists weren't based on the amount of physical time taken. If that's the case, then a lot of other units who don't save time will have to move down, such as Brom and Mia.

Before you started this shitstorm (well okay, added to it), I was actually going to start arguing Brom down. Mia doesn't really have many better units below her (maybe Rhys, Volke, and Sothe?), and there are some customizing ways that she can be useful to an efficient playthrough. They're limited in numbers, but it's not quite close to zero like Rolf's is.

Though the physical time was devil's advocate more than anything.

Really? Because I've posted matchups and comparisons that show pretty clearly that Rolf is about even with Bastian in terms of combat and dealing damage, if not slightly ahead since he has options like the Brave Bow and his innate critical rate. And obviously Rolf has more movement.

That's under the assumption that I'm actually wasting my time training him. That's the major downfall to your entire 20/2 Rolf by the time Bastian shows up bullshit.

Rolf requires me to actually put effort to having him chip something for something that's 99.99999999999% of the time insignificant to even reach base Bastian's offense.

Do you not see the gigantic flaw to this entire hyperbole of yours?

When Rolf chips in his joining chapter, he's doing roughly 17% of the enemy's total health except under the rare situations with the Fighters and the Soldiers. Nevermind that, IIRC, the Fighters are on the beach to begin with, which leaves the Soldiers and maybe the Myrmidons / Mages / Priests to have him do slightly more damage to.

When Bastian chips in Chapter 25, he's 3HKOing, which is roughly or above 33%. Now I don't think it takes a math genius to realize 17% > 33%. That does exclude some enemies like Sages and Bishops, but I'm also excluding Armor Knights from Rolf's equation too.

Even if you throw that we're likely ORKOing enemies in Chapter 25, we're likely ORKOing enemies in Chapter 9. In other words, your "chipping" argument barely holds any water here either.

I don't get what your point is, or why you're acting so dumb. I have never attempted to sandbag Bastian by assuming he doesn't get a weapon, nor have I ever suggested such a thing.

Let's see:

Are you so stupid as to not realise the obvious difference; that while we will want many dedicated combat units, we only need one siege tome user?

What do you mean by "well"? Since Tormod has better range with them, every mage has better attack with them. I guess he's faster with them with Soren, so he can have that solace.

Those sound pretty fucking close to it. Well, at least the one weapon I would've argued on him, but still it's denying a weapon is it not?

I get the impression you are trying to make a strawman, but I cannot see even the slightest passing resemblance between your strawman argument and my own. And perhaps the most ridiculous thing is that you are objecting to my claim that Bastian doesn't do anything in Chapter 9. How is this upsetting you?

It's simple.

It isn't upsetting me in the slightest.

The thing is, if availability was everything in an argument, we would have situations like Wendy > Sophia and the like (well based on this alone). Obviously, we don't have that, but since you seem adamant on arguing that with Rolf and the only other argument you have is "chipping"...

That might be a relevant argument if Soren and Ilyana had more movement than Tormod.

They do not.

Yet almost in your scenario, it doesn't matter.

Watch, Soren exists 12 chapters before Tormod does and can chip someone, and thus gain CEXP for free, and likely promote before Tormod if we never give them BEXP, which likely makes Tormod's Mov lead only amount to 1. Not that the extra Mov point matters when Tormod's chip is smaller than Soren's chip at that certain point of time.

For an added bonus, there's an actual strategy that can use Soren for assistance: Chapter 15.

But, that's only assuming the rather "shallow" arguments that you have. In reality, Tormod can easily be argued over Soren because Soren contributes little-to-nothing towards an efficient playthrough before Tormod joins, BEXP can be applied to Tormod, and you likely obtain a better unit than Soren is with said cost.

What is this shit? A cross-chapter comparison? I couldn't care less if Bastian in Chapter 25 is better than Rolf in Chapter 9 because Rolf is also in Chapter 25. You really don't have any cogent argument aside from "omg siege tomes rolf sucks".

Sure I do:

- I have to use Rolf to have better chip than Bastian.

After all, base Rolf obviously does significantly less damage than base Bastian.

- Getting Rolf to competent offensive parameters of Bastian requires putting effort into Rolf.

Since let's face it, Rolf will still have to take his fair share amount of kills to probably reach 20/2 at that point. I don't really think that "chipping" is going to get him there alone, and the BEXP dump in your post probably proves that, since 1K of an EXP dump is like going roughly from Level 13 to promoted status.

Like I said, the midgame chip is not significant. I have NEVER said it was significant. However, it makes an adequate tiebreaker between two units who are similar, and yes, they are similar, I don't give a flying fuck about Bastian being able to waste siege tome uses.

And I don't give a flying fuck about Rolf doing pitiful damage to enemies.

See, same vicious circle all over again!

I was wrong to say that; he does not need BEXP. Indeed, no character in this game needs it.

Actually, it wasn't wrong of you to say that, because in an efficient playthrough, to do something more than chip an enemy, he needs BEXP. If you dumped roughly 1K of BEXP to get to 20/1 by Chapter 17, I think that definitely raises eyebrows on your assumption that Rolf is getting to 20/2 even by Chapter 25 solely on "chipping" alone. I'm also pretty sure some kills were squeezed in there too, weren't they?

Uh, I thought that when he died you didn't actually lose anything?

If Merlinus dies, you lose the capability of storing your items throughout the chapter.

Random example: Marcus has his usual weapon gear and Vulnerary. If he picks up an item and Merlinus isn't around, Marcus has to toss one of his items. Merlinus also loses a level throughout the chapter, which keeps him further away from "being an actual unit".

Tell me when forts gain levels, move, have inventories, have supports, can engage in combat, have stats, can make actions, and show up in the Unit screen which provides a list of units.

Shitty strawman. Again.

Shitty strawman or not, Merlinus still requires some careful watching to be able to have at least most of these things, does he not? He still requires some semblance of protection, else he isn't leveling up and having some of these things. Nevermind that even though forts aren't units, Merlinus is only storing items. Being a convoy doesn't suddenly mean anything, really.

If Nephenee never engaged in combat, she would be a terrible, dare I say, a useless unit. Part of the operating principle of the tier list is that when we have opportunities to attack, we will. Of course, your whole idiotic argument is predicated on the assumption that Rolf will never do anything and chillax in a corner for the entire game because it's too much "effort" to move him.

Except in the case of Nephenee, she actually can do more than 4 damage to enemies. Nephenee can actually double some of the Cavaliers in her joining chapter at base, and with an Iron Lance forge can whip about 18 damage per round. If you're a little smarter with Wrath, she can sometimes ORKO enemies too.

See, Nephenee engaging combat provides an actual positive in most scenarios. Her damage output is actually worthwhile to contribute towards efficiency. Meanwhile, Rolf is stuck with 13 Atk at base, 15 tops with an Iron Bow forge. If you put BEXP into Nephenee, she can likely double more of the Cavaliers. When you BEXP Rolf... you're likely getting there to double at least one of those Cavaliers.

Except that that "training" is free. In other words, the training you take with Rolf has /no opportunity cost/ since there is nothing you can do to an enemy that Rolf hasn't chipped that you could not do to an enemy Rolf has chipped.

Wait a minute.

Training a unit is now suddenly free?

Uhhhhhh...

No. Training units is most certainly not always "free". It still has an opportunity cost, even though we likely discard it most of the time he hogs CEXP what are you doing. There is also deployment slots and the like, though that's already discarded by the so-called "tier list assumption". Which by the way... should really be written out. Turns, possibly resources, etc. By your argument, even Nino's training comes "free". In other words, the training you take with Nino has /no opportunity cost/ since there is nothing you can do to an enemy that Nino hasn't chipped that you could not do to an enemy Nino has chipped.

Well, except killing the enemy with Nino / Rolf by themselves.

Before you even bicker that I used Nino, a late-game joiner, replace it with:

- Wolt

- Fiona

- Meg

- Rebecca

And the results are (nearly) the same.

Why not put Rolf at the bottom, hmm? After all, according to you he does literally nothing. According to you, the best way to use Rolf is to literally never have him make an action, because even to view his move range for a single frame is a tragic waste of our oh-so-valuable time.

Actually, that still perplexes me. Even Ena and Nasir have actual niches. Well, Nasir to a possibly lesser extent.

But I guess when you can "chip" something and have availability, it suddenly saves you from rotting in Bottom of the Bottom.

so calling Rolf sucky is the same as calling Astrid sucky.

Uh no it isn't.

1) Astrid still has mounted Movement.

2) Astrid can have actual 1 range after promotion.

3) Astrid has Paragon.

4) Astrid still has mounted Movement.

Calling Rolf sucky is definitely the same as calling Bastian sucky, because they both are utter shit. Astrid is in a different plane since one kill is practically a level up compared to Rolf's ~48.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Colonel M

[aku chi]

for that matter i don't really appreciate the hypocrisy going on with respect to how BEXP distribution is treated; at one point someone claims that there's too much of a cost to giving marcia a massive BEXP bukkake (thus preventing any argument where marcia or jill > titania) and then all of a sudden there's too much BEXP available and rolf can get some for practically free.

Who has claimed that giving Rolf Bexp is free? Show me a quote. Anouleth has gone to great pains to argue that Rolf is better than Bastian without a drop of Bexp. I'm more interested in the hypocrisy present in those who claim that Bexp is virtually costless when arguing for Marcia or Tormod to claim that it is suddenly costly when given to Rolf. Rolf certainly cannot take advantage of Bexp to the same extent as Marcia, but it still has the same cost.

"so which one is it hmmm"?

As an aside: Titania would be > Marcia and Jill even if Bexp carried no opportunity cost.

Colonel M: Still misunderstanding Anouleth's argument.

[Anouleth]

As is about 75% of your replies thus far.

Except if you missed a certain quote:

Anouleth's first premise is already gone.

I was incorrect to say that.

Even if Rolf never "hurts" our efforts, that assumes that I'm also giving Rolf "protection", which still requires "effort". His utility, if you can even jokingly call it utility, is worth equal to zero. Nothing more.

Well, apparently we're storming ahead with a team of ORKOing God-Paladins who shred through enemies effortlessly on enemy phase, so I would think he doesn't need much in the way of protection.

Except, Anouleth didn't even mention Movement as part of his argument until the last post before mine. Even then:

- Why isn't Rolf over Tauroneo, Brom, Gatrie, Shinon, Devdan, Largo, and Elincia then?

I doubt Rolf could reach level 20/2 in time for Tauroneo without BEXP; even if he did, Tauroneo can beat Rolf's combat with Resolve. Brom just has better combat. Gatrie and Shinon both have earlygame; Gatrie has better combat. Devdan and Largo have the same movement as Rolf, so I don't get your point there; they also have better combat. All these characters save Shinon also have an enemy phase. Elincia has flight and staffh4x.

And I could really ask the same of you. If apparently using Rolf is such a monumental drain on our resources, and even moving him and having him perform actions is too much effort and he is doomed to suck his thumb on the bench for all eternity, why is he not in his own special graveyard tier? Why is he better than Lucia and Nasir and Ena? Why have you not pulled this argument on other units that are "too much effort" such as Astrid, Fiona, Meg, whose super minor contributions are too, arguably not worth the physical effort of moving them?

If you value "chip" so much over Bastian, then what stops the hyperbole there? The first three are Armor Knights which have the worst Move. Shinon only has "good chip" for a whopping 3 chapters. Devdan is 7 chapters behind Rolf's so-called "contributions", Largo is 18 chapters, and Elincia is 19.

I don't value "chip" so much. I describe it as "infinitesimal". In other words, /small/. "infinitesimal" does not mean "large". It is the tiebreaker between two units who are similar. If Rolf is ever so slightly better from Chapters 9 to 23 and just as good from Chapter 24 to Final, then Rolf is BETTER.

If you're going to stick with this so-called "chip" hyperbole, which was pointed out that Anouleth isn't using it as a devil's advocate, then stay consistent with the page or don't bother with it at all. I highly recommend the latter, since Rolf's contributions still can net a negative since it's one more unit I have to sit and babysit on the battlefield. Nevermind that if we go with "God-Paladin-speed", Rolf is probably getting a hit on Turn 1, maybe 2 tops, and with his damage output, probably not even worth selecting the cursor over him, moving him to attack range, and watching the map animation.

I could say the same about many mid tiers. Like Brom, or Mia.

Well that's easy. I don't even need to argue it. The proof is in his stats and the team around him.

This is stupid. Obviously, you are so obsessed with the hyperbole about Rolf being terrible and useless that you won't listen to any argument to the contrary.

Well considering I didn't have to painfully shoot myself in the knee using Bastian beforehand to get something that at least 3HKOes enemies and can attack at 3-10 range... I don't think this even requires an argument. Yet for some reason it does.

Except that using Rolf is not "painfully shooting yourself in the knee". If you hate Rolf so much that you suffer real physical pain from using him, that is your problem, not the problem of the tier list.

I mean, this is full smashfanatic retard mode where he insists on putting Nasir and Ena in the middle of every tier list, under the basis that Nasir and Ena don't "cost" us anything, but everyone below the median does cost us and everyone above the median has a benefit greater than their cost.

Even accepting that concept.

Tell me when it's worthwhile.

At least in Rolf's case.

100% of the time, naturally, since our time is worth nothing and the monetary cost is negligible. The only thing we lose out on is perhaps making a +5 Light forge for Rhys.

Technically, it's still a cost.

But, forges aren't really something to sandbag (well unless it's early on...). Not giving him BEXP probably hurts your case even more than giving it to him, but either way: rat trapped in a hole is good enough for me.

Well, I know how fruitless it is to try and argue for BEXP for Rolf, even though there really is enough.

Sure, except:

1) Boyd can always chip for roughly 9 chapters beforehand and doesn't have any movement competition beforehand aside from Oscar and Titania.

2) Rolf only wins Movement by a single point. And they both still lose to the usual Paladin brigade.

But, Bastian still gets a cheat card - he gets siege tomes, which doesn't necessarily require high movement to use. It's an added benefit, but nothing spectacular. Though, yes, its uses are limited.

Well, for a start, Boyd doesn't "chip" enemies (he can actually kill them), and it's eight chapters, not nine.

Irrelevant. Shinon can still take that resource and use it, can he not?

Oh, he can, it's just not very likely. Maybe 10% of all playthroughs?

Soren and Ilyana are highly unlikely to be used, and Tormod is "unlikely" to be used. So why are we sandbagging siege tomes on Bastian again? Because Callil can use it? Okay, now who else can use them that doesn't likely require BEXP and Arms Scrolls?

The chance of using one of Soren/Ilyana/Calill/Tormod in an efficient playthrough is 100%. Siege tomes are useful and only an inefficient player would not avail himself of them in Chapter 22 and 23.

Before you started this shitstorm (well okay, added to it), I was actually going to start arguing Brom down. Mia doesn't really have many better units below her (maybe Rhys, Volke, and Sothe?), and there are some customizing ways that she can be useful to an efficient playthrough. They're limited in numbers, but it's not quite close to zero like Rolf's is.

Mia is not useful to an efficient playthrough, any more than Rolf is. It's true that she's less of a drag, but she's still a drag. Effectively, she's useless for practically her entire lifespan...

Let me save you some time:

Titania tier

Titania

Top

Marcia

Jill

Oscar

Kieran

High

Boyd

Ike

Reyson

Tanith

Astrid

Makalov

Upper-Mid

Lethe

Muarim

Mordecai

Nephenee

Mist

Mid

Tormod

Soren

Calill

Stefan

Zihark

Ilyana

Rhys

Volke

Lower-Mid

Sothe

Haar

Geoffrey

Devdan

Low

Janaff

Elincia

Mia

Largo

Ranulf

Tauroneo

Bottom

Gatrie

Shinon

Ulki

Bastian

Brom

Rolf

Lucia

Nasir

Ena

That's under the assumption that I'm actually wasting my time training him. That's the major downfall to your entire 20/2 Rolf by the time Bastian shows up bullshit.

Your time is worthless. Even a trained Rolf is worth more.

Rolf requires me to actually put effort to having him chip something for something that's 99.99999999999% of the time insignificant to even reach base Bastian's offense.

Yes. Most units do require effort. In fact, all of them do. Except Merlinus. Where are you going with this?

Do you not see the gigantic flaw to this entire hyperbole of yours?

What hyperbole? You mean me calling Rolf's chip "infinitesimal"? Yes, I suppose it is hyperbole, since infinitesimals don't actually exist. I apologise for the sloppy maths, I promise to be more accurate in my terminology. How about "very small"?

But you were responding to my point:

"Really? Because I've posted matchups and comparisons that show pretty clearly that Rolf is about even with Bastian in terms of combat and dealing damage, if not slightly ahead since he has options like the Brave Bow and his innate critical rate. And obviously Rolf has more movement."

This is confusing, because that isn't hyperbole. Hyperbole is an exaggeration for comedic effect, and no matter what you might think of the humour value of defending Rolf, this is not an exaggeration. You are welcome to try and prove otherwise.

When Rolf chips in his joining chapter, he's doing roughly 17% of the enemy's total health except under the rare situations with the Fighters and the Soldiers. Nevermind that, IIRC, the Fighters are on the beach to begin with, which leaves the Soldiers and maybe the Myrmidons / Mages / Priests to have him do slightly more damage to.

I thought you

When Bastian chips in Chapter 25, he's 3HKOing, which is roughly or above 33%. Now I don't think it takes a math genius to realize 17% > 33%. That does exclude some enemies like Sages and Bishops, but I'm also excluding Armor Knights from Rolf's equation too.

Well, it's not like Rolf exists in Chapter 25 so we can do a side-by-side comparison. And really, once Rolf begins growing and gets a forge (since he's going to start at the back of the queue), he can probably pull 33% too, for most of his lifespan. And his lifespan, if you haven't noticed, is much, much greater.

Even if you throw that we're likely ORKOing enemies in Chapter 25, we're likely ORKOing enemies in Chapter 9. In other words, your "chipping" argument barely holds any water here either.

In order to ORKO Fighters, Soren needs to be level 18. Ilyana and Mia need to be promoted, and Mia needs a forge on top of that. Marcia cannot. Oscar needs to be level 19, also with a forge. Ike needs to be level 17, also with a forge. Myrmidons are easier, but Soren still needs level 17. Ilyana needs to be promoted. Boyd needs level 20. Oscar needs level 19.

I didn't have my units at that level, but apparently I'm an inefficient player!

Let's see:

Those sound pretty fucking close to it. Well, at least the one weapon I would've argued on him, but still it's denying a weapon is it not?

The obvious difference is that while siege tomes are rare and useful and have multiple alternate users, Rolf's Bow is not useful to anyone besides Rolf. Even if we had other Bow users (we don't in Chapter 9), or for some reason they wanted to use bows (they don't), Rolf's Bow is a prf weapon, and we can buy more bows if we want to.

It isn't upsetting me in the slightest.

The thing is, if availability was everything in an argument, we would have situations like Wendy > Sophia and the like (well based on this alone). Obviously, we don't have that, but since you seem adamant on arguing that with Rolf and the only other argument you have is "chipping"...

Availability is not everything, which is why I'm happy for Rolf to remain below Ulki or Shinon. However, if between two units who are roughly comparable during their shared lifespan, one of them is available in other chapters and can assist, even in the most minor and insignificant of ways, then they are overall better.

X = Z

Y >= 0

X + Y >= Z

Yet almost in your scenario, it doesn't matter.

Watch, Soren exists 12 chapters before Tormod does and can chip someone, and thus gain CEXP for free, and likely promote before Tormod if we never give them BEXP, which likely makes Tormod's Mov lead only amount to 1. Not that the extra Mov point matters when Tormod's chip is smaller than Soren's chip at that certain point of time.

The difference is that Tormod and Soren are actually semi-decent units and we're open to the possibility of giving them BEXP. Would you deny that Soren's availability and ability to gain CEXP and establish a lead is a factor in his favour? Because I remember making a facetious argument among those lines when I just wanted Tormod to move up and people were poo-pooing giving him BEXP.

For an added bonus, there's an actual strategy that can use Soren for assistance: Chapter 15.

But, that's only assuming the rather "shallow" arguments that you have. In reality, Tormod can easily be argued over Soren because Soren contributes little-to-nothing towards an efficient playthrough before Tormod joins, BEXP can be applied to Tormod, and you likely obtain a better unit than Soren is with said cost.

Are you seriously suggesting we give Bastian a BEXP dump?

Look, if you bring BEXP into this at all, that only expands Rolf's lead since he grows better than Bastian.

Sure I do:

- I have to use Rolf to have better chip than Bastian.

Well no shit sherlock! of course you have to use characters for them to be useful! In fact, that's kind of an unstated assumption of the tier list; that when you judge a characters' contributions, you are deploying them and using them. I might as well say that I have to use Boyd for him to have better combat than Bastian.

After all, base Rolf obviously does significantly less damage than base Bastian.

So does base Nephenee, and base Tormod, and base 90% of the tier list.

- Getting Rolf to competent offensive parameters of Bastian requires putting effort into Rolf.

Since let's face it, Rolf will still have to take his fair share amount of kills to probably reach 20/2 at that point. I don't really think that "chipping" is going to get him there alone, and the BEXP dump in your post probably proves that, since 1K of an EXP dump is like going roughly from Level 13 to promoted status.

Wait, what's this? You're actually engaging with my argument and trying to point out flaws in it instead of throwing out ridiculous hyperbole and strawmen? I'm amazed, Colonel. I didn't think you were capable of such things.

If a BEXP dump is necessary to get Rolf to level 20/1 in Chapter 17, what does that say about his level in Chapter 25? Nothing.

Also, why would we wait until Rolf is level 13 before giving him BEXP?

In fairness, Rolf probably does require kills, but the CEXP cost is basically zero. Since the likes of Kieran and Titania ORKO everything anyway, them losing out on the odd kill doesn't affect them.

Actually, it wasn't wrong of you to say that, because in an efficient playthrough, to do something more than chip an enemy, he needs BEXP. If you dumped roughly 1K of BEXP to get to 20/1 by Chapter 17, I think that definitely raises eyebrows on your assumption that Rolf is getting to 20/2 even by Chapter 25 solely on "chipping" alone. I'm also pretty sure some kills were squeezed in there too, weren't they?

Fair enough, but quite frankly the kills aren't a big deal. If promoted Marcia kills some scrub unpromoted soldier she only gets like 10 EXP anyway; exp that would likely make no difference since she 1-rounds everything.

If Merlinus dies, you lose the capability of storing your items throughout the chapter.

The capability that you only had because you deployed Merlinus in the first place.

Random example: Marcus has his usual weapon gear and Vulnerary. If he picks up an item and Merlinus isn't around, Marcus has to toss one of his items. Merlinus also loses a level throughout the chapter, which keeps him further away from "being an actual unit".

And the only one that affects is Merlinus.

Shitty strawman or not, Merlinus still requires some careful watching to be able to have at least most of these things, does he not? He still requires some semblance of protection, else he isn't leveling up and having some of these things. Nevermind that even though forts aren't units, Merlinus is only storing items. Being a convoy doesn't suddenly mean anything, really.

Except you don't have to protect him or watch him or do anything with him. You can do those things, if you want to, but they are not required.

Except in the case of Nephenee, she actually can do more than 4 damage to enemies. Nephenee can actually double some of the Cavaliers in her joining chapter at base, and with an Iron Lance forge can whip about 18 damage per round. If you're a little smarter with Wrath, she can sometimes ORKO enemies too.

See, Nephenee engaging combat provides an actual positive in most scenarios.

Rolf is weak, but he does not actually increase the HP of enemies when he hits them.

[quote

Wait a minute.

Training a unit is now suddenly free?

Uhhhhhh...

No. Training units is most certainly not always "free". It still has an opportunity cost, even though we likely discard it most of the time he hogs CEXP what are you doing. There is also deployment slots and the like, though that's already discarded by the so-called "tier list assumption". Which by the way... should really be written out. Turns, possibly resources, etc. By your argument, even Nino's training comes "free". In other words, the training you take with Nino has /no opportunity cost/ since there is nothing you can do to an enemy that Nino hasn't chipped that you could not do to an enemy Nino has chipped.

It doesn't have an opportunity cost, you're quite right. If you could actually point out the opportunity cost, you would... but you can't, because it doesn't exist.

Well, except killing the enemy with Nino / Rolf by themselves.

What's the difference? Sain storms up to the weakened Wyvern and ORKOes it. Does it matter if it was at 25 or 15 HP before? No, it doesn't. The only way it would make a difference is if Nino got a surprise crit and Sain lost out on the EXP, but enemies in this game actually have luck.

Before you even bicker that I used Nino, a late-game joiner, replace it with:

- Wolt

- Fiona

- Meg

- Rebecca

And the results are (nearly) the same.

So are you saying that you don't use Wolt in earlygame? Because I do.

Actually, that still perplexes me. Even Ena and Nasir have actual niches. Well, Nasir to a possibly lesser extent.

I think you fail to comprehend just how hugely stat-screwed Ike needs to be in order for Ena to have better combat, and even then he's still better for other reasons. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that the chance of Ike being that screwed is similar to the chance of Rolf capping his strength in tier 1.

uh it really isn't, especially in a game like FE9 where chipping at a range less than that of a paladin's movement is essentially worthless

Then I have to ask what characters such as Mia and Brom are doing so high, since they also have range that's less than a Paladin and take quite a long time to ORKO. If this is going to be a max-efficiency tier list, it doesn't look much like one.

for that matter i don't really appreciate the hypocrisy going on with respect to how BEXP distribution is treated; at one point someone claims that there's too much of a cost to giving marcia a massive BEXP bukkake (thus preventing any argument where marcia or jill > titania) and then all of a sudden there's too much BEXP available and rolf can get some for practically free.

so which one is it hmmm

If anything, it's a hypocrisy for people to constantly be saying "oh well we have infinite BEXP, just tons and tons we can do whatever we want with it" but at the same time stolidly refuse to give Rolf a single point of BEXP ever. If we really are assuming maximum efficiency, then we will actually have quite a lot of BEXP left over to do inefficient things with (like give to Rolf). The real "cost" of giving Rolf BEXP is not that he takes away BEXP that could actually be used for an efficient use, but that he takes BEXP away from other inefficient characters (they're still better, just inefficient). I mean, I had enough BEXP for Rolf, Marcia, Astrid, Mist, and Tormod all to play with.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

Okay, fine, you wanted proof that Bastian can actually contribute to something more than his casual chipping? Here:

I'm not 100% sure how reliable it is (I think the only unit to really check here is Elincia and maybe Reyson?), but Bastian here can ORKO that General like Callil did in the video with no problems, as well as no problem surviving the Cat (I double checked and the Cat has 19 AS and 28 Atk. Bastian's 35 HP | 12 Def is enough to survive it.

Base Callil is weighed down by 5 Spd at base, and her Spd drops to 13. She would need to gain roughly 4-5 levels to prevent herself from dying to the Cat (40 damage total to Callil if she's doubled). I also checked and this General isn't screwing around:

2x General lv 9 (silver lance [d])

38 hp, 33 atk, 8 AS, 108 hit, 21 avo, 21 def, 12 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Meteor would require a Mag proc and Blizzard only does roughly 30 damage.

Tormod has to be 20/6 to KO the General with Bolting, and his situation is slightly better with surviving the Cat than Callil's. Ilyana would have to be 20/9 to KO with Meteor (her Spd is too low to gamble with Bolting), and Soren has to be roughly 20/7 with a Spirit Dust to KO with Blizzard.

Obviously, it's true that other units can KO this General and survive the Cat; however, it requires no resources nor CEXP for Bastian to attack and kill with Bolting and survive the Cat's attack.

Since siege tomes aren't supposedly "necessary" until Chapter 22, which oddly enough when Callil joins, I honestly don't see a reason to train a Mage in this game whatsoever. The only real Mage that might be considered is Tormod here, but considering his cost with BEXP and Arms Scrolls... Of course, that doesn't mean Bastian > Tormod either.

Still, we are arguing an imaginary efficiency where giving Marcia BEXP is suddenly such a huge cost to us. Well, you didn't quite argue it Anou, but...

The main crux to your so-called "great" argument, as toolku chi would call it, is simple: your premise is reliant on Rolf's availability and being able to chip an enemy, yet the problem is you've yet to prove when Rolf's chip is actually greater than 0, without impending himself in danger. If an enemy is ORKOed before Rolf chipped at it, obviously Rolf's net worth is still 0. There is also the counterargument that Bastian's chip also can be worthless, though. Eventually, Rolf has to get more than his EXP and what not, and then he'll likely require forges as well, or he probably won't keep up in damage with the enemy's Def (there are obvious exceptions, of course, but in some of those situations like Mages, Rolf might be rolling over dead).

I'm not claiming Bastian to be a saint, but his chip actually does something that's called "damage" to the point where it's noticeable, there are ways to kind of find loopholes to some of his issues (you're obviously not going to use all the siege tomes in the course of 3 chapters where it's supposedly necessary, are you? After all, we're speaking on a not-so-efficient plane of theorycraft with Rolf).

Now, with all that said, here's the question you've yet to seriously prove:

Does Rolf actually contribute anything to an efficient playthrough that isn't solely self-improvement?

If the answer is "no" when I showed that Bastian can actually proceed to do something in one of his chapters that actually can contribute to an efficient turncount, then I think we're done here with this shitfest debacle.

Also, I would love to crank Brom down to Bottom myself, but the last time I didn't really put effort to the argument and Cynthia denied putting him lower. As for Mia, if we're training inefficient schmucks like Soren and Ilyana who cost more than just CEXP to use effectively (Arms Scrolls and, more than likely, BEXP. Maybe a Crown too?), then I don't see why Mia should drop to begin with. Even Interceptor provided some ways Mia can contribute to an efficient playthrough that isn't Snowy-shallow.

[Snowy_One]

Why do you keep assuming Rolf's combat to be horrible? His stats, as I said before, are near-identical to Astrid's. The only way he will only 'chip' is if someone refuses to put any serious effort into training him despite him being on the team. Bastion, meanwhile, is stuck with dealing poor damage all the time as well as having low SPD even if he gets a BEXP dump to level him up. Rolf if trained in unquestionably better than Bastion. Rolf if untrained (yet capable of reaching 20/2 by the time Bastion joins apparently) is still better than Bastion. The only time Rolf is inferior to Bastion is if no effort is put into raising him at all. This shouldn't be a hard debate or argument. In order for Rolf to achieve the level he needs to beat Bastion he needs only to be used like a member of the team. Heck, I don't even use BEXP until I near the end of the game and I've never had an unpromoted unit by chapter 24. I think I would actually be ashamed if I did. And yes, I have used Rolf before.

Wait, M, HAVE you even used Rolf before? I've used every unit in the game at some point (except for Ena as I seem to always get mass-Aether in the BK fight), but have you?

[dondon151]

The obvious difference is that while siege tomes are rare and useful and have multiple alternate users, Rolf's Bow is not useful to anyone besides Rolf. Even if we had other Bow users (we don't in Chapter 9), or for some reason they wanted to use bows (they don't), Rolf's Bow is a prf weapon, and we can buy more bows if we want to.

but rolf's bow is not even good

if anything it solidifies the notion that rolf is good for nothing but doing 4 HP damage to enemies per attack

So are you saying that you don't use Wolt in earlygame? Because I do.

wolt is forced; rolf is not

try dorothy for useless

If anything, it's a hypocrisy for people to constantly be saying "oh well we have infinite BEXP, just tons and tons we can do whatever we want with it" but at the same time stolidly refuse to give Rolf a single point of BEXP ever. If we really are assuming maximum efficiency, then we will actually have quite a lot of BEXP left over to do inefficient things with (like give to Rolf). The real "cost" of giving Rolf BEXP is not that he takes away BEXP that could actually be used for an efficient use, but that he takes BEXP away from other inefficient characters (they're still better, just inefficient). I mean, I had enough BEXP for Rolf, Marcia, Astrid, Mist, and Tormod all to play with.

unless marcia, jill, and/or tanith are capped out, then there is a better use for BEXP than rolf, because marginal defensive parameters on those units could always potentially come in useful (actually even reyson might be a better BEXP candidate because it frees him up to survive enemies)

then there's mist, elincia, and tormod who may actually be useful

Why do you keep assuming Rolf's combat to be horrible? His stats, as I said before, are near-identical to Astrid's. The only way he will only 'chip' is if someone refuses to put any serious effort into training him despite him being on the team. Bastion, meanwhile, is stuck with dealing poor damage all the time as well as having low SPD even if he gets a BEXP dump to level him up. Rolf if trained in unquestionably better than Bastion. Rolf if untrained (yet capable of reaching 20/2 by the time Bastion joins apparently) is still better than Bastion. The only time Rolf is inferior to Bastion is if no effort is put into raising him at all. This shouldn't be a hard debate or argument. In order for Rolf to achieve the level he needs to beat Bastion he needs only to be used like a member of the team. Heck, I don't even use BEXP until I near the end of the game and I've never had an unpromoted unit by chapter 24. I think I would actually be ashamed if I did. And yes, I have used Rolf before.

look here mr. room-temperature-IQ

rolf and astrid are not anything alike

Edited May 9, 2012 by dondon151

[Emperor Hardin]

Why is Gatrie so low, he has some of the best growths in the game? True he's hurt by low movement, but not that much.

Also in defense of Largo, he generally maxes out HP, Strength, Skill(Alright its a low cap), and Speed. Plus the Critical bonus in the US verson helps alot, give him a Killer axe and watch the destruction. Not saying he's high tier, but I think he's a little underrated.

[Shadow Mir]

Why is Gatrie so low, he has some of the best growths in the game? True he's hurt by low movement, but not that much.

Movement is part of it, true. It doesn't help that Paladins curb stomp this game.

[Snowy_One]

look here mr. room-temperature-IQ

rolf and astrid are not anything alike

10/0 HP: 23.4 STR:8.6 MAG: 1.8 SKL: 12.05 SPD: 10.5 LCK:7.6 DEF: 8.7 RES: 4.25

10/0 HP: 24.05 STR: 9.6 MAG: 3.8 SKL: 10.95 SPD: 11.5 LCK: 6.6 DEF: 7.7 RES: 6.25

20/10: HP:37.6 STR: 19.2 MAG: 9.6 SKL: 23.4 SPD: 22 LCK: 14.2 DEF: 16.4 RES: 13

20/10: HP: 37.8 STR: 19.2 MAG: 7.6 SKL: 22.6 SPD: 22 LCK: 15.2 DEF: 16.4 RES: 11

I removed the names of the unit that these stats belonged to. Without going to the stat-list, can you tell which is which?

[-Cynthia-]

Low movement is pretty crippling in a game where most units don't have offensive or durability issues. Speaking of offensive issues, Gatrie's Spd is pretty bad- BEXP KW levels help, but it's still an issue.

Largo isn't a bad unit, but he has pretty low availability and average move which makes him...somewhat below average.

@Rolf vs Bastian I'm inclined to keep it as is, being a capable siege tome user seems better than having bad combat with no other utility for...pretty much the whole game.

@Astrid vs Rolf Taking half as much exp to level up, +2 Mov and Canto and axes after promotion (being not bow locked is actually really good for Enemy Phase) makes it a crushing lead in Astrid's favor, bringing her up just makes him look worse. Yes, they have similar stats if we insist on giving them nothing, but Astrid has so much more potential. Due to how much BEXP there is in this game, just looking at base stats doesn't seem relevant for the most part.

Edited May 9, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

The bottom one is Rolf. I don't even have to loom at stats for this one. Well for 10/0.

The latter it's inversed slightly. Unless Rolf suddenly gets Magic that high.

Although you forgot to list Movement. It's a stat!

Edited May 9, 2012 by Colonel M

[Snowy_One]

The order was Rolf/ Astrid/ Astrid/ Rolf.

I didn't list movement because the focus was on their combat stats.

@Astrid vs Rolf Taking half as much exp to level up, +2 Mov and Canto and axes after promotion (being not bow locked is actually really good for Enemy Phase) makes it a crushing lead in Astrid's favor, bringing her up just makes him look worse. Yes, they have similar stats if we insist on giving them nothing, but Astrid has so much more potential. Due to how much BEXP there is in this game, just looking at base stats doesn't seem relevant for the most part.

I know Astrid is better. I never said Astrid was awful or anything. I said that, if you say Rolf's combat sucks, Astrid combat sucks as well because the two are nearly identical when compared side by side in stats. Yes, Astrid can use axes and has a higher level, I'm not an idiot, but that doesn't change that she and Rolf are incredibly similar, yet she is in high and Rolf is near the bottom. It seems perfectly clear to me that Rolf is not in the bottom tier then because his combat sucks (because if that was the case Astrid would likely be much lower), but because people dislike the lack of 1-range counters. Since Bastion won't likely ever be fighting at 1-range though, that's not an issue here.

[BBM]

But according to the parameters of this tier list, Astrid has a mount and is therefore certified a BEXP dump, and has Paragon to boot, which means she has a big level lead over Rolf. Sure, their stats are similar when you compare 10/0 Rolf to 10/0 Astrid, but when you compare 10/0 Rolf to 20/1 Astrid, which is more likely:

23.4 8.6 1.8 12.05 10.5 7.6 8.7 4.25

33.55 15.6 7.8 18.45 17.5 10.6 13.7 10.75

Their stats aren't so similar anymore. You can't compare their stats side by side at the same level because that will never happen. The only chapter in which Rolf has better combat than Astrid (when they both exist) is her joining chapter.

[Anouleth]

Okay, fine, you wanted proof that Bastian can actually contribute to something more than his casual chipping? Here:

I'm not 100% sure how reliable it is (I think the only unit to really check here is Elincia and maybe Reyson?), but Bastian here can ORKO that General like Callil did in the video with no problems, as well as no problem surviving the Cat (I double checked and the Cat has 19 AS and 28 Atk. Bastian's 35 HP | 12 Def is enough to survive it.

Base Callil is weighed down by 5 Spd at base, and her Spd drops to 13. She would need to gain roughly 4-5 levels to prevent herself from dying to the Cat (40 damage total to Callil if she's doubled). I also checked and this General isn't screwing around:

2x General lv 9 (silver lance [d])

38 hp, 33 atk, 8 AS, 108 hit, 21 avo, 21 def, 12 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Meteor would require a Mag proc and Blizzard only does roughly 30 damage.

Tormod has to be 20/6 to KO the General with Bolting, and his situation is slightly better with surviving the Cat than Callil's. Ilyana would have to be 20/9 to KO with Meteor (her Spd is too low to gamble with Bolting), and Soren has to be roughly 20/7 with a Spirit Dust to KO with Blizzard.

Obviously, it's true that other units can KO this General and survive the Cat; however, it requires no resources nor CEXP for Bastian to attack and kill with Bolting and survive the Cat's attack.

It looks like it is probably possible to position Calill below the ledge on the LHS. In fact, it looks like there's nothing in that strategy that can't be mirrored and done on the LHS, unless the General there is slightly tougher, and even then Calill can probably ORKO with the Spirit Dust. She will still get attacked by the Warrior, but wouldn't double her. Not that I see why it's necessary for her to survive. Does any of his later strategies rely on having a siege tome user? As for the 1 mt she needs:

"Kind of funny that base level Calill can ORKO that General with Bolting."

"I still gave her some stat boosters so she's not killed by that cat."

Apparently there are enough stat boosters lying around that we can easily afford to throw them on Calill. I'm not surprised. Plus you could give Calill the virtually uncontested Spirit Dust... or a Tormod support (which she should have anyway for Chapter 22). Tormod has enough weight to shove Reyson and if he's untrained we hardly care if he dies. Calill will probably gain a level off Schaeffer, for free.

And it should go without saying that any low turn strategy for Chapter 27 is inherently unreliable because of Hafedd's Miracle skill. And probably pretty undesirable to boot. After all, you miss out on Resolve.

Since siege tomes aren't supposedly "necessary" until Chapter 22, which oddly enough when Callil joins, I honestly don't see a reason to train a Mage in this game whatsoever. The only real Mage that might be considered is Tormod here, but considering his cost with BEXP and Arms Scrolls... Of course, that doesn't mean Bastian > Tormod either.

Well, siege tomes are useless after turn 3 since by that point a 6 move siege tome sage is outranged by a 9 move Paladin. Being able to move further and not be rescue-dropped would be useful in larger maps such as Chapter 26 and Chapter 23.

Still, we are arguing an imaginary efficiency where giving Marcia BEXP is suddenly such a huge cost to us. Well, you didn't quite argue it Anou, but...

It's a cost, the benefit usually outweighs it.

The main crux to your so-called "great" argument,

Called by who?

as toolku chi would call it, is simple: your premise is reliant on Rolf's availability and being able to chip an enemy, yet the problem is you've yet to prove when Rolf's chip is actually greater than 0, without impending himself in danger. If an enemy is ORKOed before Rolf chipped at it, obviously Rolf's net worth is still 0. There is also the counterargument that Bastian's chip also can be worthless, though. Eventually, Rolf has to get more than his EXP and what not, and then he'll likely require forges as well, or he probably won't keep up in damage with the enemy's Def (there are obvious exceptions, of course, but in some of those situations like Mages, Rolf might be rolling over dead).

I don't see why giving Rolf a forge is ever a problem. You get so many, and certainly you will never break any if you go as fast as Vykan does.

I'm not claiming Bastian to be a saint, but his chip actually does something that's called "damage" to the point where it's noticeable, there are ways to kind of find loopholes to some of his issues (you're obviously not going to use all the siege tomes in the course of 3 chapters where it's supposedly necessary, are you? After all, we're speaking on a not-so-efficient plane of theorycraft with Rolf).

Of course not, but it's absurd to suggest that Bastian using siege tomes doesn't come at a cost; namely, that a more competent person won't be using them instead. If you can deny Rolf BEXP because there is always a more competent user, I can deny Bastian siege tomes because there is always a more competent user.

Now, with all that said, here's the question you've yet to seriously prove:

Does Rolf actually contribute anything to an efficient playthrough that isn't solely self-improvement?

If the answer is "no" when I showed that Bastian can actually proceed to do something in one of his chapters that actually can contribute to an efficient turncount, then I think we're done here with this shitfest debacle.

It depends on your definition of efficient. Did he contribute anything to Vykan's playthrough? No. Neither did Bastian, though. Maybe Bastian can survive where Calill cannot, but it's irrelevant since even if he does survive he's still useless.

Also, I would love to crank Brom down to Bottom myself, but the last time I didn't really put effort to the argument and Cynthia denied putting him lower. As for Mia, if we're training inefficient schmucks like Soren and Ilyana who cost more than just CEXP to use effectively (Arms Scrolls and, more than likely, BEXP. Maybe a Crown too?), then I don't see why Mia should drop to begin with. Even Interceptor provided some ways Mia can contribute to an efficient playthrough that isn't Snowy-shallow.

And Rolf contributed in some ways to my playthrough. There is a lot of room in this game to train idiots like Mia and Rolf and have them kill enemies, but that doesn't make it an intelligent choice.

but rolf's bow is not even good

if anything it solidifies the notion that rolf is good for nothing but doing 4 HP damage to enemies per attack

Except that Colonel M argued that Rolf should not be allowed to keep his bow. Obviously this is incorrect and not at all like saying Bastian should not be given siege tomes.

wolt is forced; rolf is not

try dorothy for useless

I was not the one who brought up Wolt, Colonel M did, so I don't get why you're bitching at me.

unless marcia, jill, and/or tanith are capped out, then there is a better use for BEXP than rolf, because marginal defensive parameters on those units could always potentially come in useful (actually even reyson might be a better BEXP candidate because it frees him up to survive enemies)

Not at all. For a start, an efficient playthrough shouldn't even recruit both Marcia and Jill since both do pretty much the same job, but cost turns to recruit. Second, additional defensive parameters beyond what is needed for our strategies is useless. We know how many attacks they will face, and they only need enough defensive parameters to survive that many and not any more. In fact, if anything, excess defensive parameters are a bad thing since we don't know exactly how the AI will respond to them and we almost always want units to be attacking Jill and Marcia rather than other units.

That being said, additional hit is almost always welcome.

then there's mist, elincia, and tormod who may actually be useful

Unlikely. In a playthrough as fast as Vykan's, I doubt Mist will ever reach B Staves. Can you even use Arms Scrolls on staff rank in this game?

Edited May 9, 2012 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

I know Astrid is better. I never said Astrid was awful or anything. I said that, if you say Rolf's combat sucks, Astrid combat sucks as well because the two are nearly identical when compared side by side in stats. Yes, Astrid can use axes and has a higher level, I'm not an idiot, but that doesn't change that she and Rolf are incredibly similar, yet she is in high and Rolf is near the bottom. It seems perfectly clear to me that Rolf is not in the bottom tier then because his combat sucks (because if that was the case Astrid would likely be much lower), but because people dislike the lack of 1-range counters. Since Bastion won't likely ever be fighting at 1-range though, that's not an issue here.

except astrid can take the 1-range fighting and can get a good amount of levels from it

rolf cant

astrid can actually move forward and fight a lot more/engage in combat easier

rolf cant

astrid gains levels incredibly fast

rolf doesnt

astrid has hand axes which do a lot of damage on EP and PP

rolf has stuff that does damage only on PP on a good day

astrid has steel axes which are stronger than steel bows

rolf sucks

snowy, i repeat, are you retarded, raw stats arent everything, as you fail to grasp

[dondon151]

futile attempt to prove a point

everyone else has adequately represented my stance on this so all i can do is add my trademark flavor

mr. room-temperature-IQ

[Colonel M]

The Wolt thing was my fault. That part I didn't quite think too straight with (Dorothy would've been a better example, yes). I'm not sure with the strategy (I think the General is the exact same, you just lose out on a Silver Lance. Not that huge of a deal).

Resolve is the tricky bastard. Something tells me it could be obtained in a 3 turn at worst... That's the only part I really don't know about. I guess Aether or Wrath is fine for Ashnard, but obviously Resolve has its uses. *shrugs.

As for the infodump, it still barely matters. You asked me to provide a way that Bastian isn't useless. I provided a way. To suddenly discard it because "Callil exists and we might burn time on Tormod" doesn't mean squat. The cost was two uses of Bolting that was going to be used either way in the strategy. I only mentioned Meteor in the rare scenario, and even then Bastian too could take the Spirit Dust for it.

I only denied Rolf weapons because siege tomes were denied on Bastian. To me it only seemed fair. Siege times are (well they should but for some reason people are clinically retarded) only competed by likely three people (Callil due to bases, same with Bastian, Tormod due to doing.something outside of siege thanks to his Mov). BEXP is competed by, well, everyone.

But anyway, Bastian would be able to contribute in a Vykan efficiency playthrough in this case (even if alternatives exist, but that can be said for many units). Luckily for you, and possibly everyone else, this list is a little more casual. I mean, you didn't even list a way Rolf contributed. You just said 'he did". That's quite the barren proof provided honestly.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Colonel M

[Lord Raven]

also room temperature is being measured in celsius, before you get all smart n shit on us