FE9 Tier list v3

[Lord Raven]

You still need to trade Sephiran a tome, and the only tome that has any guarantee of being forged is one wielded by Micaiah (and that will probably be some shit like Thani or whatever) because that's the only thing that can hit an Aura.

[Snowy_One]

Nothing wrong with removing Aether in Chapter 28.

A fair enough point. I guess I just have a personal stigma against removing a skill from a character. However, do keep in mind that removing Aether for wrath/vantage means setting aside wrath for several chapters unused for the sole purpose of shaving off some extra turns. That means hurting the units who could use it well for their various reasons simply for that one chapter.

To be honest, the "sacrifice" is so minor that it barely registers. By that point in the game, you can easily throw away a skill without making a meaningful impact on strategies. Nor is Ike going skill-less practically the entire game that big a sacrifice. I usually find that I have way more people than I do skills to give them, so someone is going to have to go without. Might as well be the guy I plan to staple Resolve to.

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

Hmm, well Lehran is already on the FE10 tier list. Maybe it would be better to just slash (not in that way) the Royals and shove them at the bottom.

There are two easy ways to handle it that I can see. Including them outright, or making a separate tier. It is a hard choice either way. If we make them part of the main tier list and they score anywhere above Ena (or maybe, MAYBE Bastion and Lucia), we are invaliding a lot. As it has been pointed out, there is a very real chance that they will end up doing nothing. It doesn't sit right with me to put them above even Ena if their contribution to the game is outright squat. Might as well put Morgan from LoAF on the tier list then as she would contribute as much as the Laguz Royals would in that situation (except possibly serving as a stress-relief for Cyn) while Ena, as horrible and hamfisted as it sounds, at least has the potential to help.

The second option is to include them on a separate 'Laguz Kings' tier list. I am actually leaning towards this one because... well... In order for the Laguz kings to be of any value, I guess it does need to be assumed that Ike isn't using Wrath/Resolve. While the possibility of that happening is real, if Ike does for any reason, it renders them largely useless. Their only value comes from when that scenario doesn't happen (or gets screwed up badly). So basically their value comes from the assumption that Ike isn't at optimal performance. Maybe he got RNG screwed a bit hard, maybe you decided to use Wrath or Resolve elsewhere for whatever reason, maybe he just didn't crit or something (I don't actually know the hard numbers, but doubt Ike can score a 100% crit rate), but either way, something has gone wrong from the 'optimal' style.

What else would we rank them on? Mustache growing ability? Shirtlessness? Coin ownership? I suppose that Giffca has the significant advantage of starting only halfway around the world rather than the whole way around the world, whatever good that does him.

I was thinking their polka-dancing abilities myself.

Anyways, as it has been pointed out, it has been mentioned that Ike may kill Ashnard before they can reach him. So if Tibran and Naesala are more likely to reach him before Giffca, then that technically makes them better. Or maybe they just simply don't chip in enough damage to be worth much, so they are actually all equal with Giffca slightly behind since he's land-bound.

Once again, while a Swordmaster is a poor way to use Wrath (since Swordmasters have a bunch of shortcomings, think Ike with a lot less Defense and no Ragnell to salvage them), I am only with Snowy here on the fact that you have assumed an "optimal" playthrough where only Ike is getting Resolve.

I know what the advantages and flaws of the SM are. I was freaking trapped in Mia vs. Zihark debates for what was probably 5,000 posts on Gamefaqs. They may have less defense, but their skill usage, AVO, and critical bonuses can be very useful when done right. Zihark has some semi-solid avoid, Mia has a skill that can be comboed for greatness and enough magic/+ATT supports to actually use the SS to some degree, Stefan has his level, and Lucia... has... ummm... That 'Princesses gone wild' video to distract enemies with? (Lucia sucks, admittedly).

Sides, it isn't just the SM. Other units can get boosts out of wrath that can be useful depending on the situation that would not be 'sub-optimal'. It seems foolish to assume Ike ALWAYS has it when there are other uses for it.

[Florete]

You still need to trade Sephiran a tome, and the only tome that has any guarantee of being forged is one wielded by Micaiah (and that will probably be some shit like Thani or whatever) because that's the only thing that can hit an Aura.

Sanaki can wield Light magic, too. Arms Scrolls exist to make getting Rexaura blessed not a problem.

[Lord Raven]

I know what the advantages and flaws of the SM are. I was freaking trapped in Mia vs. Zihark debates for what was probably 5,000 posts on Gamefaqs. They may have less defense, but their skill usage, AVO, and critical bonuses can be very useful when done right. Zihark has some semi-solid avoid, Mia has a skill that can be comboed for greatness and enough magic/+ATT supports to actually use the SS to some degree, Stefan has his level, and Lucia... has... ummm... That 'Princesses gone wild' video to distract enemies with? (Lucia sucks, admittedly).

Sides, it isn't just the SM. Other units can get boosts out of wrath that can be useful depending on the situation that would not be 'sub-optimal'. It seems foolish to assume Ike ALWAYS has it when there are other uses for it.

I was referring to the lack of 1-2 range off the strength stat (which has absolutely no bearing on Mia vs Zihark vs Stefan, which btw Stefan wins anyway), but thanks for bringing up the other reasons.

Sanaki can wield Light magic, too. Arms Scrolls exist to make getting Rexaura blessed not a problem.

Doesn't mean the player's going to want to use them on Micaiah. Wrath and Resolve exist to be on anyone you want, too. Edited November 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

Doesn't mean the player's going to want to use them on Micaiah. Wrath and Resolve exist to be on anyone you want, too.

By that point in the game there should be more than enough money for such a purpose. Remember they are buyable (like 10 of them) in 4-E-1.

Even if it's not 100% guaranteed that Lehran will be able to attack, it's still much more likely than a Laguz Royal in this game attacking. Lehran also comes with the Ashera staff, anyway, so he can at least do some healing.

[Snowy_One]

I was referring to the lack of 1-2 range off the strength stat (which has absolutely no bearing on Mia vs Zihark vs Stefan, which btw Stefan wins anyway), but thanks for bringing up the other reasons.

IMO, Mia > Zihark > Stefan, but my reasons for this are based off of a different series of values for their traits (valuing Mia's Vantage and magic potential more than Zihark's AVO, especially since I dislike using Muarim, and Stefan's chance to be crit). Not looking for a debate or advise, just sayin...

[Aethereal]

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

Um. It is possible to know. What can we do with Wrath that we cannot do otherwise? Any bosses can we kill a turn earlier, units in the way we can clear out more reliably? Anything?

This isn't a sarcastic comment, I don't know the ins and outs of FE9, but I would like to see a response on the discussion of what Wrath could hypothetically give you on other units outside of Ike. I have a feeling that Ike getting Wrath is probably the best bet, but it could be otherwise. And I also think it's more relevant/important than other stuff being discussed. =X

[Anouleth]

Sephiran is no more guaranteed to do something as the Royals are.

Once again, while a Swordmaster is a poor way to use Wrath (since Swordmasters have a bunch of shortcomings, think Ike with a lot less Defense and no Ragnell to salvage them), I am only with Snowy here on the fact that you have assumed an "optimal" playthrough where only Ike is getting Resolve.

Well, tell me then, who are you suggesting we give Resolve to? Because I don't see any character that gives 1/10th as much benefit as Ike does. It's one thing to have an open mind when a resource has a decent alternative destination. It's quite another to refuse to assume that we use a resource for basically the only useful thing we can do.

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

And as I have said I don't care about Wrath. It would be nice, but it's not a big deal. What matters is Resolve.

Plus, how is it impossible to know? List of valuable skills that are always collected:

-Adept

-Wrath

-Four Occults

-Savior

-Smite

That's eight skills. But one Occult doesn't appear until the same time that Resolve does, and another is carried by Stefan so we might not get it, and it's very possible to miss the Adept scroll as well, and Smite usually goes on a non-combatant. So between 4 and 6. So it's perfectly likely that we can be using all our skills and Ike still won't have one.

So in other words:

1. It's not a big deal if we don't put a skill on Ike

2. It's not a big deal if we do put a skill on Ike and remove it later

2. It's not a big deal if we put Resolve on Ike since seriously who else is going to use it?

[aku chi]

Um. It is possible to know. What can we do with Wrath that we cannot do otherwise? Any bosses can we kill a turn earlier, units in the way we can clear out more reliably? Anything?

This isn't a sarcastic comment, I don't know the ins and outs of FE9, but I would like to see a response on the discussion of what Wrath could hypothetically give you on other units outside of Ike. I have a feeling that Ike getting Wrath is probably the best bet, but it could be otherwise. And I also think it's more relevant/important than other stuff being discussed. =X

Giving Boyd or Largo Wrath and Vantage can make them sufficiently durable to drop at the top of the trail in C25. Largo, in particular, has 100% crit in Wrath range with a Killer Axe, so he'll take 0 damage from 1-range enemies (Boyd is likely to have 85-90% crit in this scenario). With a +crit Hand Axe forge, Largo is looking at a ~80-85% chance to crit-blick at 1-2 range while in Wrath range. Boyd has a less impressive 65-70% chance (but Boyd has more concrete durability). If Jill and Haar aren't recruited (because we early-cleared C11 or C12), dropping a tough footsoldier at the top might be the only way to 2-turn C25. With Wrath and Vantage, Boyd and Largo are the best candidates for this task (Nephenee with Vantage is close behind). A Marcia with Wrath and Vantage might also have some value here. Her lower Atk means that she won't kill everything with a (Killer Lance or Javelin forge) crit, but she can crit-kill most foes and can ORKO all foes with a crit and regular attack.

Wrath might also make it easier to defeat Ena in C21. But we can use Resolve Tauroneo to remove the drama of a Wrath-crit hitting. Chapter 20 also features a boss too tough to 2HKO, so using Wrath to get a crit could be helpful. But using a Sage to siege-bomb for the extra damage works just as well. Chapters 23, 26, and 27 have tough bosses that need to be killed (so a crit from Wrath would be helpful), but it generally isn't too tough to bring another unit in range to finish the bosses off without losing a turn.

And as I have said I don't care about Wrath. It would be nice, but it's not a big deal. What matters is Resolve.

Agreed. Resolve is the key skill to speed up Endgame. Wrath is just a potential bonus.

List of valuable skills that are always collected:

-Adept

-Wrath

-Four Occults

-Savior

-Smite

Vantage is also a valuable skill. Especially in conjunction with Wrath, Adept, or Guard.

[Lord Raven]

Well, tell me then, who are you suggesting we give Resolve to? Because I don't see any character that gives 1/10th as much benefit as Ike does. It's one thing to have an open mind when a resource has a decent alternative destination. It's quite another to refuse to assume that we use a resource for basically the only useful thing we can do.

Ena/Nasir and there's also the chance that we haven't even built up Ike considering if he weren't a Lord he wouldn't be that great a character. And once again you are contradicting your previous stance, since you are once again assuming the absolute optimum. Just because he's the best doesn't mean he's the one getting it.

Even if it's not 100% guaranteed that Lehran will be able to attack, it's still much more likely than a Laguz Royal in this game attacking. Lehran also comes with the Ashera staff, anyway, so he can at least do some healing.

*shrug* it's not even 100% guaranteed he'll be recruited (this is before we consider what he does) yet he's still ranked. Same with the three royals in this game, since they're not 100% guaranteed to be recruited either, and just because they're not as likely to be recruited doesn't mean they shouldn't be ranked at all. In tier lists we tend to judge as if the character has been recruited and used, which has been the general stance for as long as *I* have been on SF (so nearly 3 years). Granted, they'll be ranked pretty low, but they should still be ranked.

[Anouleth]

Ena/Nasir and there's also the chance that we haven't even built up Ike considering if he weren't a Lord he wouldn't be that great a character. And once again you are contradicting your previous stance, since you are once again assuming the absolute optimum. Just because he's the best doesn't mean he's the one getting it.

It's not that he's the best, it's that he's waaaaay way better than every other possibility. For example, between Mist and Rhys, Mist is better but not by a huge margin, Rhys has some advantages, so you wouldn't assume that. But between say, Moulder and L'arachel, the advantage in Moulder's favour is so overwhelming that it's perfectly acceptable to assume that he's being used instead of L'arachel. I am happy to have an open mind, but there is a limit.

I assume the player has a certain level of competence and at least enough for Ike to maintain a decent level. The fact that "Ike wouldn't be that great if he wasn't a Lord" is irrelevant: he is a Lord. I am not going to engage in any thought experiments about what Ike would or wouldn't be if he wasn't.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Florete]

*shrug* it's not even 100% guaranteed he'll be recruited (this is before we consider what he does) yet he's still ranked. Same with the three royals in this game, since they're not 100% guaranteed to be recruited either, and just because they're not as likely to be recruited doesn't mean they shouldn't be ranked at all. In tier lists we tend to judge as if the character has been recruited and used, which has been the general stance for as long as *I* have been on SF (so nearly 3 years). Granted, they'll be ranked pretty low, but they should still be ranked.

I was never assuming they wouldn't be recruited, merely that they would not end up able to do anything. It's more like they might as well not be recruited. I am assuming all these units at least make it onto the field.

[Lord Raven]

It's not that he's the best, it's that he's waaaaay way better than every other possibility. For example, between Mist and Rhys, Mist is better but not by a huge margin, Rhys has some advantages, so you wouldn't assume that. But between say, Moulder and L'arachel, the advantage in Moulder's favour is so overwhelming that it's perfectly acceptable to assume that he's being used instead of L'arachel.

This isn't about Mist/Rhys and Moulder/L'Arachel. I'm not sure how this is actually relevant. At the same time, Ena/Nasir are still able to damage Ashnard and given all the resources you could give to Ike, Ena/Nasir can do it decently effectively. It'll take a couple turns longer, sure, but it's actually viable.

I am happy to have an open mind, but there is a limit.

An arbitrary limit that you apply to whatever you are arguing. If you're going to stick with one stance, you should stay at that stance and not just make exceptions, especially exceptions where they shouldn't be made.

I assume the player has a certain level of competence and at least enough for Ike to maintain a decent level. The fact that "Ike wouldn't be that great if he wasn't a Lord" is irrelevant: he is a Lord. I am not going to engage in any thought experiments about what Ike would or wouldn't be if he wasn't.

Not everyone wants to raise Ike and Ike isn't required to be built up for an efficiency playthrough. It makes certain Rescue drops a pain in the ass but it's nothing we're not used to in other FE games.

I was never assuming they wouldn't be recruited, merely that they would not end up able to do anything. It's more like they might as well not be recruited. I am assuming all these units at least make it onto the field.

Then I guess they'd be ranked below Nasir/Ena if that were truly the case. Doesn't change the fact that Rexaura/Rexflame will help you exactly as much as Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala (except Sephiran does the same % to an Aura as Giffca does to Ashnard). Edited November 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

This isn't about Mist/Rhys and Moulder/L'Arachel. I'm not sure how this is actually relevant. At the same time, Ena/Nasir are still able to damage Ashnard and given all the resources you could give to Ike, Ena/Nasir can do it decently effectively. It'll take a couple turns longer, sure, but it's actually viable.

Lots of things are "viable" if you are willing to take more turns. In fact, I would go so far as to say that every character in the whole game is viable if you are merely willing to take more turns and give them resources that they don't make good use of. That does not mean they should be taken into account on a tier list.

An arbitrary limit that you apply to whatever you are arguing. If you're going to stick with one stance, you should stay at that stance and not just make exceptions, especially exceptions where they shouldn't be made.

I don't make exceptions. If in theory Malliesia and Frost were the only magic users in FE12, then without hesitation I would say that yes, Malliesia would always be trained and used.

Not everyone wants to raise Ike and Ike isn't required to be built up for an efficiency playthrough. It makes certain Rescue drops a pain in the ass but it's nothing we're not used to in other FE games.

You're right that you don't have to train Ike, he's just an infinitely superior choice in every conceivable way to training Ena. So in the same way that Haar is infinitely superior to Fiona, I feel perfectly comfortable asserting that it is indeed Ike we're training and not Ena.

[Snowy_One]

Lots of things are "viable" if you are willing to take more turns. In fact, I would go so far as to say that every character in the whole game is viable if you are merely willing to take more turns and give them resources that they don't make good use of. That does not mean they should be taken into account on a tier list.

Why not? A tier list is a measure of how powerful and potent characters are. Removing turn counts does not remove the standard, only changes it. If character X and character Y are of the same power, but X joins earlier than Y while Y joins at a higher level, the measurement doesn't change, only the values. Maybe X is higher than Y because he's the only flier on a early map meaning a earlier clear, or maybe there is little use for his flight and so Y is more useful in a LTC while in a non-LTC, that's different. Doesn't mean they can't still be tiered.

You're right that you don't have to train Ike, he's just an infinitely superior choice in every conceivable way to training Ena. So in the same way that Haar is infinitely superior to Fiona, I feel perfectly comfortable asserting that it is indeed Ike we're training and not Ena.

What if Ike is screwed? What if you put extra effort into raising fliers/mounted units for a stronger/earlier strong team? Both are plausible situations and in both the Laguz kings are very valuable.

[Lord Raven]

Lots of things are "viable" if you are willing to take more turns. In fact, I would go so far as to say that every character in the whole game is viable if you are merely willing to take more turns and give them resources that they don't make good use of. That does not mean they should be taken into account on a tier list.

So the royals are going to be used when you are judging their worth on a tier list. They aren't discluded otherwise.

I don't make exceptions. If in theory Malliesia and Frost were the only magic users in FE12, then without hesitation I would say that yes, Malliesia would always be trained and used.

How is this relevant to my point?

You're right that you don't have to train Ike, he's just an infinitely superior choice in every conceivable way to training Ena. So in the same way that Haar is infinitely superior to Fiona, I feel perfectly comfortable asserting that it is indeed Ike we're training and not Ena.

Not "infinitely" because it's possible to not build up Ike. The amount of resources he takes vs his output is an obvious reason why you wouldn't given him much to do; it's around 2-3 rescue drops here and there and an easier final chapter and that's about it. If he weren't the game's Lord (remember, Seizing isn't taken into account on this tier list) then he would actually be the only other non-mounted unit above Nephenee if even that. It's actually somewhat logical to not use Ike that often; at the same time, Ena is viable choice for the final chapter. Edited November 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

Then I guess they'd be ranked below Nasir/Ena if that were truly the case. Doesn't change the fact that Rexaura/Rexflame will help you exactly as much as Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala (except Sephiran does the same % to an Aura as Giffca does to Ashnard).

The whole point of what I've been saying is that Lehran will be able to do something while it's possible Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala will not be able to do anything. So your "fact" is incorrect because Lehran is doing more.

[Anouleth]

Why not? A tier list is a measure of how powerful and potent characters are. Removing turn counts does not remove the standard, only changes it. If character X and character Y are of the same power, but X joins earlier than Y while Y joins at a higher level, the measurement doesn't change, only the values. Maybe X is higher than Y because he's the only flier on a early map meaning a earlier clear, or maybe there is little use for his flight and so Y is more useful in a LTC while in a non-LTC, that's different. Doesn't mean they can't still be tiered.

You misunderstand me. What I am saying is that many resource distributions, while viable, should not be considered. Giving the Energy Drops to Soren is "viable" in a playthrough that does not prioritise turncount, but that doesn't mean that it should be considered for a tier list. Many resource distribution, in fact all resource distributions are viable if you are merely willing to take more turns, often many less turns than training Ena over Ike. But obviously, it is impossible to consider every possible place that a resource can go, and not all that desirable either.

Fire Emblem Resource Distribution 101, since apparently I need to repeat basics such as "the player is not the kind of complete idiot that decides to use fucking Ena over Ike".

What if Ike is screwed? What if you put extra effort into raising fliers/mounted units for a stronger/earlier strong team? Both are plausible situations and in both the Laguz kings are very valuable.

Even a heavily screwed Ike can dispatch Ashnard quickly. Even if Ike is five points behind his averages in every single stat, he still 3RKOes Ashnard using Resolve, 2RKOes if you help him out with Bands and Energy Drops (which a player should). So it's still very unlikely that Ashnard will still be alive for Giffca to reach him.

The reality is that you have to kill the first version of Ashnard anyway, who is pretty much the same as the second version. If the player has a brain, he will have a respectably fast plan for pulling this off, and he can just apply the same plan to the second form. Such plans are not difficult to form: thus, obsoleting the Royals. I am not going to assume the player is too stupid to carry it out.

Not "infinitely" because it's possible to not build up Ike. The amount of resources he takes vs his output is an obvious reason why you wouldn't given him much to do; it's around 2-3 rescue drops here and there and an easier final chapter and that's about it. If he weren't the game's Lord (remember, Seizing isn't taken into account on this tier list) then he would actually be the only other non-mounted unit above Nephenee if even that. It's actually somewhat logical to not use Ike that often; at the same time, Ena is viable choice for the final chapter.

By the time Ena even transforms, Ike would have already have beaten the chapter. That is the kind of gap between them we are talking about. There is nothing viable, or efficient, or smart, or worthy of consideration by the tier list in not training Ike and using Ena instead. It would be like if people said that we should consider not using Ike in FE10 since after all even base level Ike can eventually kill the Black Knight if he gets a Speedwing, or if people said we should consider not using Malliesia because you eventually get Frost.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

The whole point of what I've been saying is that Lehran will be able to do something while it's possible Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala will not be able to do anything. So your "fact" is incorrect because Lehran is doing more.

You don't have to have Lehran do anything, especially because what he's doing is pretty redundant and you need to also spend two turns getting a tome to him for him to actually do anything. That's just about as much as Giffca/Naesala/Tibarn especially considering how possible a 2-turn clear is.

By the time Ena even transforms, Ike would have already have beaten the chapter. That is the kind of gap between them we are talking about. There is nothing viable, or efficient, or smart, or worthy of consideration by the tier list in not training Ike and using Ena instead. It would be like if people said that we should consider not using Ike in FE10 since after all even base level Ike can eventually kill the Black Knight if he gets a Speedwing, or if people said we should consider not using Malliesia because you eventually get Frost.

There is the Demi Band, the ability to use other skills on top of Wrath and Resolve. There are efficient/low-turn methods to get someone other than Ike to finish off Ashnard, and the fact is that if the Laguz Royals can't really do much to begin with then they will be ranked pretty low anyway.

Furthermore, it's exactly like saying that there should be a "used" and "unused" tier. You've used this same stream of logic to argue Oliver at the bottom of bottom tier, when in reality your argument more or less put him in an "unused" tier. Except you strawmanned my argument in another thread to hell and back because you were arguing against me doing the exact same thing, except that I wasn't doing it. If you are going to stick by your principles that there shouldn't be a "used" and "unused" tier, then you should fucking stick by it and not make exceptions.

[Snowy_One]

You misunderstand me. What I am saying is that many resource distributions, while viable, should not be considered. Giving the Energy Drops to Soren is "viable" in a playthrough that does not prioritise turncount, but that doesn't mean that it should be considered for a tier list.

Huh? Why would we give a energy drop to a mage regardless of play style? Their only use for it is in reducing AS loss for a siege tome. Much better to give to practically any melee unit as they will at least use the boosted STR.

Many resource distribution, in fact all resource distributions are viable if you are merely willing to take more turns, often many less turns than training Ena over Ike. But obviously, it is impossible to consider every possible place that a resource can go, and not all that desirable either.

... What? So you think that, just because someone decides to not attempt a least-turn-count run, suddenly that means that all resource distributions are viable? What a [part of sentence deleted out of a sense of basic human dignity]! Oh hey! Wanna give the dusts to Boyd? Well why not? We're taking more turns anyways! Since we threw out that stupid notion of 'lowest turn count' suddenly EVERYTHING is viable and it is not like there aren't some things that are obviously better than others and we should ignore it because, hey, no LTC! That is retarded.

Sides, isn't this the whole damned point of discussing tier lists? Because it is impossible to account for every possibility? You may think giving wrath to, say, Oscar is a bad idea, then someone else comes along and presents a argument that he can do good with it and provides reasons as to why and his position on the list is adjusted if there is new information to be gained and considered after all.

Fire Emblem Resource Distribution 101, since apparently I need to repeat basics such as "the player is not the kind of complete idiot that decides to use fucking Ena over Ike".

Anything that can go wrong will and at the worst possible moment. There is the very real potential that a player will have a Ike who is screwed or the player will not use him. You can say it is stupid to use Ena over Ike, and I won't argue that, but that doesn't mean it won't ever happen.

The whole point of what I've been saying is that Lehran will be able to do something while it's possible Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala will not be able to do anything. So your "fact" is incorrect because Lehran is doing more.

However, even when Lehran does do something it is of little value. The 'worst' I can see happening if we don't use Lehran is, maybe, maybe, taking another turn that we wouldn't have taken before. The Laguz kings, on the other hand, can still be of use if, say, Ike got screwed.

[Florete]

You don't have to have Lehran do anything, especially because what he's doing is pretty redundant and you need to also spend two turns getting a tome to him for him to actually do anything. That's just about as much as Giffca/Naesala/Tibarn especially considering how possible a 2-turn clear is.

Yeah, I don't have to have most characters in the game do anything. Am I really just not explaining this well? You can get Lehran attacking by turn 1 simply by trading (or just have him heal). Giffca/Naesala/Tibarn may easily not be able to do anything at all. I'm not saying that what they can do might be insignificant or redundant, I'm saying there is nothing they can do at all. Lehran is at least going to be able to do something.

[Aethereal]

... What? So you think that, just because someone decides to not attempt a least-turn-count run, suddenly that means that all resource distributions are viable? What a [part of sentence deleted out of a sense of basic human dignity]! Oh hey! Wanna give the dusts to Boyd? Well why not? We're taking more turns anyways! Since we threw out that stupid notion of 'lowest turn count' suddenly EVERYTHING is viable and it is not like there aren't some things that are obviously better than others and we should ignore it because, hey, no LTC! That is retarded.

I don't think you're understanding. The point isn't that some one who doesn't do a low turn count run is stupid, or retarded, or whatever. The point is that if you DONT factor turncount in, you stop really judging how well a character can help contribute to clearing the objectives, and start figuring out how they can survive. You can literally turtle your way through half the game with little to no problem. In a world where you don't judge by turncounts, paladins suck, and generals and bishops would be king: After all, it doesn't matter if Gatrie moves two spaces less each turn to get to the seize point, or that we have to heal him every turn, since as long as he lives, he did the job. If turncounts don't matter, it shouldn't matter if it takes Gatrie twice as long to kill something as say, Ike. They both can kill the thing, they both live, they both must be equal. I know that that's not the way some one who doesn't do low turn count runs thinks, but it's the reality of the logic. I also agree that there are some thing that are obviously better than others, like giving that Spirit Dust to Soren instead of Boyd. How exactly do you quantify that if you throw turns out the window? I know that as some one who doesn't do every run in as few turns as possible, I can still recognize when things are better. It just so happens (and not coincidentally) that the things that are better contribute to lower turncounts. Know how I know Ike is better than Ena for final? Ike saves turns. Not because I'm interested in getting the fewest turns possible, but because being able to complete the chapter objectives faster is a good way to measure how good you are at completing the chapter objectives.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, I don't have to have most characters in the game do anything. Am I really just not explaining this well? You can get Lehran attacking by turn 1 simply by trading (or just have him heal). Giffca/Naesala/Tibarn may easily not be able to do anything at all. I'm not saying that what they can do might be insignificant or redundant, I'm saying there is nothing they can do at all. Lehran is at least going to be able to do something.

No your point is just poor. There are indeed circumstances where they are doing things, especially considering Ashnard actually advances on your units in Hard Mode, and it once again contradicts Anouleth's previous stance of "oh looks like YOURE JUST ASSUMING THE OPTIMUM" which he has so vehemently argued against me.

Getting a tome to Lehran by Turn 1 requires you to go out of your way, by the way. Way out of the way. And he's doing just about as much as the royals when he is doing something (ie he's not really doing _anything_, it doesn't hurt nor help).

[Dark Sage]

Perhaps we should simply take Lehran off the FE10 list then since he barely does anything, if anything at all.

[Florete]

No your point is just poor. There are indeed circumstances where they are doing things, especially considering Ashnard actually advances on your units in Hard Mode, and it once again contradicts Anouleth's previous stance of "oh looks like YOURE JUST ASSUMING THE OPTIMUM" which he has so vehemently argued against me.

Getting a tome to Lehran by Turn 1 requires you to go out of your way, by the way. Way out of the way. And he's doing just about as much as the royals when he is doing something (ie he's not really doing _anything_, it doesn't hurt nor help).

If we're going to tier them based on what they do in 50% of runs, that's fine. But my point is not poor; it does happen that they don't get anything to do, not by simply choosing to leave them out but because time doesn't allow it. This is not the case for Lehran. I don't know when you last played 4-E-5 but you hardly have to "go out of your way" to get him a tome on turn 1. You just have to give it someone who will be standing close to there after moving/attacking/etc. Lehran can reach an Aura to attack on turn 1, so he can trade with someone who also attacked. This is not rocket science.

I would also argue that Lehran can actually make a significant contribution in 4-E-5. Attacking from turn 1 with 1-2 range magic (for cover tiles) and all those 40s, especially Spd, is pretty great.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire