FE9 Tier list v3

[Sol Hiryu]

Well, then we need to discuss what all he's doing in his chapters. Is he always weakening for others to ORKO without forges (which is a good thing, of course, since forges are limited) or is he doing that some of the time but killing things others left alive after enemy phase or what? Also, how many turns does he attack on? All of them in each chapter? Do we give him a forge? What chapter? Does Astrid keep the brave bow for when an axe doesn't cut it or does Rolf get it?

Can you suggest levels for him along the way so we can check how he's doing on enemies?

Vykan's post in the first tier list thread, despite the whole steel bow forge error, details some groupings of enemies and what he can do. I was going through and reworking it, but I got busy with other stuff. Perhaps it's a good starting point?

[Eltoshen]

Maybe I'm loony, but I don't see why Rolf should stay below lower mid. I mean...The hawks? Siriusly? Rolf needs fixing, but once he does he's useful for a long while. Guys like the hawks just show up and are just meh in many ways. Basically 3 types of weaknesses, are stuck to melee, and they have to deal with transformation. Doesn't help they join a tad late, and immediately run into their weaknesses like ballistae ad Blizzard.

On top of this, they aren't even offensively stellar anwyays. Janaff's a tad too weak, and Ulki's too slow.

Don't know if this counts for anything but having the hawks = not having to fight Naesala.

I've only been able to kill Naesala in easy mode, and that was with Soren's Tornado (or was it Elwind?) and the Bow Triangle Attack. It doesn't screw up your game, since he just retreats.

[Colonel M]

...Anyway it's assumed that the Crows survive and we talk to Naesala for the Knight Ring, correct? Though I question Janaff and Ulki's performances with the Demi Band.

[Narga_Rocks]

...Anyway it's assumed that the Crows survive and we talk to Naesala for the Knight Ring, correct? Though I question Janaff and Ulki's performances with the Demi Band.

Well, I think they should get credit for the Naesala thing, except we only need one of them so they each get half credit? But how much is that worth? It's one action in one chapter. Half an action.

[grandjackal]

I would question Janaff and Ulki's combat even normally. They really do just show up to be meh.

Granted they do make Naesala stfu, but it's one chapter that is not involving them necessarily in combat.

[Eltoshen]

...Anyway it's assumed that the Crows survive and we talk to Naesala for the Knight Ring, correct? Though I question Janaff and Ulki's performances with the Demi Band.

You can't assume things that require a character to take action.

Janaff fights notably better than Ulki when it comes to using the Demi band. He's not bad either, since he's still able to double. However, using the Demi Band means no full guard. No full guard = 3 weaknesses.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Florete]

Crediting the Hawks for shutting Naesala up is like crediting someone for recruiting a new character. We never do that, so why should the Hawks get it?

[Eltoshen]

Meh, if you want to play it that way, then whatever. It's not like it benefits them that much, anyways. However, you can argue that you don't even need to bother with Naesala and just rush and kill the boss, which ends the chapter, IIRC. Sure, you miss out on a bit, but it's nothing much.

@Colonel M: please don't reply to that part of my post. I just realized that it'd be like saying Ike taking the throne should make him god tier.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[grandjackal]

Janaff with Demi Band at base has 23 ATK. Rolf at 20/1 or 11/10 with a normal silver bow has 28 ATK. Normal, as in not forged. If I forged Steel, he'd have 29 ATK. I don't remember if silver is forgeable by now, but Rolf could have potentially 33 ATK. Also note that Rolf has effective bonus on people. Without demi band, Janaff has 26 ATK. So if Rolf has bad offense, Janaff isn't exactly pulling miracles out of his ass either. Hell, normal steel he's still beating demi Janaff with 24 ATK.

Another comparison

11/1 Rolf

27 HP, 12 Str, 14 Skill, 13 Speed, 8 Luck, 11 Def, 6 Res

20/1 Mia

32 HP, 13 Str, 18 Skill, 22 Speed, 13 Luck, 11 Def, 7 Res

Do note that Bows tend to have 1 mt more than swords.

He's pretty much identical offensively, and durability he is still sort of comparing, but Mia is stuck to swords. She has to face counters every time. Every player phase, she's countered. Every enemy phase she has to eat an attack. She has no response to range. Basically she's facing twice as much danger than Rolf would normally.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Eltoshen]

Wait, um, did you forget to mention that Rolf has no enemy phase and that his speed is apparently 9 points lower than Mia's? Mia's doubling more than him, now, plus she has both player and enemy phases. How is that a disadvantage for Mia?

Mia is stuck to swords...and Rolf isn't stuck to Bows? I don't know...this seems like a rather hard argument to make. Rolf > Mia, that is.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Sol Hiryu]

The idea is that while enemy phase is mostly a good and efficient thing, it's not always the be-all-end-all of a character. Not everybody wants an enemy phase, especially if their defense is pretty bad. Mages usually want to stay away from enemy phase until their defense/avo is up to reliable levels, for example.

That said, from the stats posted above, 20/1 Mia would have a base 57 Avo, while 11/1 Rolf would have only 34, without factoring supports/terrain/biorhythm in. Not particularly impressive, but Mia can at least dodge some stuff that Rolf might not.

EDIT: To clarify, no enemy phase for archers/snipers definitely is a weakness, but it's not the sole reason why they usually suck. Also, being stuck to swords does kinda suck, as swords pretty much blow in this game compared to other weapons. Not only that, Mia has to share with the other sword units, while Rolf only has to share with Astrid. It's not much of a reason, but there you go.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[grandjackal]

Wait, um, did you forget to mention that Rolf has no enemy phase and that his speed is apparently 9 points lower than Mia's? Mia's doubling more than him, now, plus she has both player and enemy phases. How is that a disadvantage for Mia?

Mia is stuck to swords...and Rolf isn't stuck to Bows? I don't know...this seems like a rather hard argument to make. Rolf > Mia, that is.

You do realize that Rolf is 10 goddamn levels lower, right? Imagine how soon we are getting that. Chances are at that time, 13 is right on. 50% growth ensures it grows fine. Mia needs to go all the way to level 20/1 to compare to that offense. While Rolf may have no enemy phase, Mia has to deal with the fact she has to eat twice as many attacks. Considering how at 10 levels lower her durability is actually pretty similar, I'd be hesitant to throw her about haphazardly. Rolf on the other hand is always a safe bet, and I can get the bonuses I want basically any time. Mia due to the much weaker promotion boosts has to wait till level 20/1 to get that.

It's sort of like FE7's Lyn vs Rebecca, though this time Mia doesn't have the Lancereavers to answer with.

Someone forgot to add in Rolf's Wind affinity when factoring avoid. He's at least able to reduce the gap by 15.

Both have trouble getting supports though I suppose...

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Sol Hiryu]

Someone forgot to add in Rolf's Wind affinity when factoring avoid. He's at least able to reduce the gap by 15.

Both have trouble getting supports though I suppose...

That's why I said I didn't factor supports in. =p

Mia does have an Avo advantage, but I suppose I could grant that Rolf can get a B Rhys or B Marcia. Although he's mostly in it for the Atk, not the Avo.

[grandjackal]

Someone forgot to add in Rolf's Wind affinity when factoring avoid. He's at least able to reduce the gap by 15.

Both have trouble getting supports though I suppose...

That's why I said I didn't factor supports in. =p

Mia does have an Avo advantage, but I suppose I could grant that Rolf can get a B Rhys or B Marcia. Although he's mostly in it for the Atk, not the Avo.

This only furthers Rolf's offense lead. Not only that, but now he is also benefiting more people (Marcia doesn't mind extra avoid, I recall her being a bit high strung for supports due to them not existing or something).

[Eltoshen]

@Kuja: You're the one who gave out those levels, so you have no right to get mad at me when I point out flaws in your argument.

And Marcia also has supports with Gatrie, Kieran, and Tanith. Not that bad, actually.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[grandjackal]

@Kuja: You're the one who gave out those levels, so you have no right to get mad at me when I point out flaws in your argument.

And Marcia also has supports with Gatrie, Kieran, and Tanith. Not that bad, actually.

You didn't point out a flaw, you said she had 9 AS when Rolf has that 13 AS pretty early due to you know, having it pretty early in the game. He's doubling anyways, who cares? When you're doubling everything anyways, having even more AS is superfluous.

As for Marcia's supports, Rolf comes earlier than Gatrie, who gives measily bonuses in return while she might actually like the avoid Rolf gives to some extent. She could combine it with Keiran or Tanith. Keiran is fine, but Tanith DOES show up rather late. Rolf will be benefiting much sooner for Marcia. Since promoting Rolf early is considered, he could actually better match her speed with the move-up he gets. Gatrie's paltry move has no such luck. Even normally, one move and Gatrie will always be out of support range for her.

[Eltoshen]

Gatrie's light affinity anyways, so he's not helping her that much. Her best supports would be Kieran and Tanith though, since they match her movement range and the Wind and Earth affinities work great.

So, I'm assuming that we want to give the only Master Seal we have to Rolf? Enlighten me, since I'm unsure of how these tier lists work anymore. I'd much rather prefer maybe a SageSoren or ValkyrieMist. And let's not forget that by promoting Rolf early, you're crippling him later in the game, when his stats only end up sub-par.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[grandjackal]

Gatrie's light affinity anyways, so he's not helping her that much. Her best supports would be Kieran and Tanith though, since they match her movement range and the Wind and Earth affinities work great.

So, I'm assuming that we want to give the only Master Seal we have to Rolf? Enlighten me, since I'm unsure of how these tier lists work anymore. I'd much rather prefer maybe a SageSoren or ValkyrieMist. And let's not forget that by promoting Rolf early, you're crippling him later in the game, when his stats only end up sub-par.

Rolf could possibly have an A with her by then. The Earth support would only be effective from 24->, which is not a lot of the game left. On the other hand, Rolf could have given Marcia a bit more power to abuse from her own affinity long before Tanith even shows up. Even a B gives Rolf positive for longer by giving her offense she wouldn't have otherwise. This is gotten at chapter 14, 4 chapters before Tanith shows up. Then he still would be giving her that +1 atk before Tanith would all the way up to 24. Basically a full 10 chapters of attack bonus she would not have with Tanith.

There are 2 seals I believe, and I see no reason as to bring more than 1 other. On top of that, there is no difference between 10/20 and 20/10. I have hurt nothing.

[Tino]

Actually you have. Though you managed to improve their effectiveness in battle considerably by promoting them early, you also managed to increase the amount of EXP they need in order to level up, thus they grow more slowly than they would have otherwise. So you have actually hurt their growth, which in turn might hurt the growth of others, especially with BEXP. And when such an early promotion doesn't even turn out to be all that useful because they turned from 2RKOing to 2RKOing - and thus maintaining the same level of offence - it means someone else who actually might have gone from 3RKOing to 2RKOing - and thus obtaining quite a significant offence improvement - is prevented from actually using it.

And on a more minor note, it also means they need more BEXP to level up.

[Dat Nick]

to increase the amount of EXP they need in order to level up

That's incorrect. Due to the EXP formula, promoted units usually gain levels faster than unpromoted units at first, simply because the low level cancels out the promoted class penalty.

Although, 10-11 Rolf doesn't sound epic, but wtf we are not that low on master seals, the mages are like the only other people who care for an early promotion, and Ilyana isn't even that good. Anyway, 10-11 Rolf promoted has about the same AS base as Shinon with lower growth and part of the reason Shinon is so low on the list is he has inconsistent AS, so Rolf will struggle there. I know I was the one who suggester early promotion for Rolf: But maybe not that early. 15 sounds better.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

That's the thing though, Shinon's speed is a problem not due to his base, but when he comes back. He has 13 speed in chapter 18. You suggesting Rolf will only be level 10 by then? No, Rolf will be level 11 waaaay earlier.

Let's look at level 15/1 Rolf though.

29 HP, 13 Str, 16 Skill, 15 Speed, 9 Luck, 12 Def, 7 Res

Ok, so Mia has 3 HP when leveled all the way to 20/1, and has avoid lead of 17, of which due to Rolf's wind can close the gap, not that it matters anyways as he's an archer. With supports that might actually want him, he can potentially boost his Str by 2 with a B B Rhys and Marcia. With his stronger weapon type, even Mia with an A with an offense type wouldn't be doing mroe raw damage, as Rolf has a stronger weapon type. Let's also not forget a couple advantages.

-Only dude with the Laguz Bow against the pirate ravens, which is basically a 40 Mt weapon due to it not only doing bonus damage to flying, but laguz as well. Mia can't even double them due to their high speed, and with the laguzslayer she effectively loses 2 speed for the most part as it's 12 weight kills her speed until she's all the way to level 19. Not to mention there's only 1, and I'm sure Ike or Zihark could put it to better use. Rolf's Laguz Bow? Well no one else is around that COULD use it!

-Not having to take counters with said bow, so no hard hitting counters from tigers and such. Shooting down hawks with ease, it can be pretty lulzy. He doesn't take counters in general really. Mia on the other hand suffers the swords curse of always having to take a counter, and having no retaliation to ranged attacks and thus is basically eating twice as many attacks as most other units. It's far easier to just sit back and shoot at people when your offense consists of being incredibly likely to get maimed on any phase. Hell, Rolf quickly gets better offense. I can basically just say he helps Mia gum down kills without facing a counter argument with that in mind.

-Flyer effective bonus with every weapon. Even when other bow users enter the fray, he will always have might on pain in the ass wyverns. These guys are a nightmare to Mia, as they're spear wielding high defense units that do strong damage and have potential range. Rolf can just snipe them out of the sky really. Mia most likely will not be doing much. Speaking of slayer weapons, swords only have Laguzslayer and Armorslayer. Laguzslayer I just pointed out, and the Armorslayer is heavy as SIN for Mia. That sucker doesn't stop weighing her down until level 20/10. At first? Weighs her down by 10, reducing her speed to 3. That can't even double an armor knight. The damn thing is so ineffective in her hands. Rolf not only has permanent slayer weapons all the time, but he doesn't have to deal with competition until Astrid OR having to deal with actually failing with said weapons.

Only lead I truly see Mia having is an avoid lead, of which Rolf can cut down with his wind affinity, and is varying due to her having to deal with the weapon triangle. Most enemies use lances, so her 17 avoid lead is cut down to 7. A B and a C, Rolf can actually manage to beat Mia's avoid in such situations.

[Dat Nick]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

-Only dude with the Laguz Bow against the pirate ravens, which is basically a 40 Mt weapon due to it not only doing bonus damage to flying, but laguz as well. Mia can't even double them due to their high speed, and with the laguzslayer she effectively loses 2 speed for the most part as it's 12 weight kills her speed until she's all the way to level 19. Not to mention there's only 1, and I'm sure Ike or Zihark could put it to better use. Rolf's Laguz Bow? Well no one else is around that COULD use it!

Except the Laguz Bow doesn't exist yet.

Also, if we're accepting 411 BEXP per character, then let's switch Rolf out with Mia.

Assuming 1 level per chapter of combat, she will be level 13 by chapter 11. Now Zihark shows up and we can compare the two.

Level 13 Mia (knight band equipped when leveling up with BEXP): 24.5 hp, 10 str, 2.1 mag, 13.15 skl, 17.2 spd, 9.15 lck, 8.6 def, 3.75 res

Level 10 Zihark: 25 hp, 10 str, 1 mag, 13 skl, 15 spd, 6 lck, 7 def, 0 res

If Zihark isn't considered to have a bad early game, then neither should Mia at this point.

Edited September 11, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, so Mia has 3 HP when leveled all the way to 20/1, and has avoid lead of 17, of which due to Rolf's wind can close the gap, not that it matters anyways as he's an archer. With supports that might actually want him, he can potentially boost his Str by 2 with a B B Rhys and Marcia. With his stronger weapon type, even Mia with an A with an offense type wouldn't be doing mroe raw damage, as Rolf has a stronger weapon type. Let's also not forget a couple advantages.

Why does Marcia want Rolf? Tanith and Kieran provide better bonuses and match Mov better.

As for Rhys, Mia can gain +3 Atk from Rhys, Rolf can only gain +1. Plus Mia can gain another from Ilyana, and swords only have -1 Mt compared to bows. Mia is the one with the offensive lead.

Only dude with the Laguz Bow against the pirate ravens, which is basically a 40 Mt weapon due to it not only doing bonus damage to flying, but laguz as well. Mia can't even double them due to their high speed, and with the laguzslayer she effectively loses 2 speed for the most part as it's 12 weight kills her speed until she's all the way to level 19. Not to mention there's only 1, and I'm sure Ike or Zihark could put it to better use. Rolf's Laguz Bow? Well no one else is around that COULD use it!

Doesn't exist yet, Laguzslayer does.

Not having to take counters with said bow, so no hard hitting counters from tigers and such. Shooting down hawks with ease, it can be pretty lulzy. He doesn't take counters in general really. Mia on the other hand suffers the swords curse of always having to take a counter, and having no retaliation to ranged attacks and thus is basically eating twice as many attacks as most other units. It's far easier to just sit back and shoot at people when your offense consists of being incredibly likely to get maimed on any phase. Hell, Rolf quickly gets better offense. I can basically just say he helps Mia gum down kills without facing a counter argument with that in mind.

Melee attacks are more common than ranged attacks, so it's more important to be able to retaliate to those. Twice as many attacks? Only if no one else uses 1 range ver.

Flyer effective bonus with every weapon. Even when other bow users enter the fray, he will always have might on pain in the ass wyverns. These guys are a nightmare to Mia, as they're spear wielding high defense units that do strong damage and have potential range. Rolf can just snipe them out of the sky really. Mia most likely will not be doing much. Speaking of slayer weapons, swords only have Laguzslayer and Armorslayer. Laguzslayer I just pointed out, and the Armorslayer is heavy as SIN for Mia. That sucker doesn't stop weighing her down until level 20/10. At first? Weighs her down by 10, reducing her speed to 3. That can't even double an armor knight. The damn thing is so ineffective in her hands. Rolf not only has permanent slayer weapons all the time, but he doesn't have to deal with competition until Astrid OR having to deal with actually failing with said weapons.

Don't forget the Longsword either. Plus, Rolf can't do effective damage to armors/cavs.

Only lead I truly see Mia having is an avoid lead, of which Rolf can cut down with his wind affinity, and is varying due to her having to deal with the weapon triangle. Most enemies use lances, so her 17 avoid lead is cut down to 7. A B and a C, Rolf can actually manage to beat Mia's avoid in such situations.

Most enemies using lances only applies for the first few chapters, Mia being able to manipulate the weapons trianglecan be an advantage(she dodges axes easily).

I'm not very convinced.

[grandjackal]

Why does Marcia want Rolf? Tanith and Kieran provide better bonuses and match Mov better.

Tanith doesn't give better bonuses till the support actually gets to B, which is all the way into chapter 24. Could have gotten Rolf a bloody A by then.

Keiran gives the same bonuses, and Rolf builds faster. Helping Marcia have 15 avoid and +2 ATK sooner is better than Tanith supporting in the least.

As for Rhys, Mia can gain +3 Atk from Rhys, Rolf can only gain +1. Plus Mia can gain another from Ilyana, and swords only have -1 Mt compared to bows. Mia is the one with the offensive lead.

Illyana wold prefer defensive boosts. Mordy and Zihark call dibs.

Doesn't exist yet, Laguzslayer does.

Neh?...*double checks* whoops...Could have sworn ;;>>

Melee attacks are more common than ranged attacks, so it's more important to be able to retaliate to those. Twice as many attacks? Only if no one else uses 1 range ver.

Why WOULD you? If you had the choice of smacking someone at range or melee, you would always choose range. Especially since if you miss at melee, you eat a counter. Attack at range, I don't eat a counter. Mia has no such luxury, she always has to eat a counter. Only time she doesn't feel a counter is finishing someone off, and lo and behold, Rolf can do so too.

Don't forget the Longsword either. Plus, Rolf can't do effective damage to armors/cavs.

Forgot about that, but she still has to eat a counter. Rolf could chip at them first at least, so when someone like Mia DOES attack, she's more likely to kill so she won't have to eat a counter when using such weapons.

Most enemies using lances only applies for the first few chapters, Mia being able to manipulate the weapons trianglecan be an advantage(she dodges axes easily).

I'm not very convinced.

Still a majority of the game is lancers, so more often than not it isn't.