FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Why hello there Mr. Demiband!

Mr. Demiband is on holiday with his best friend Muarim until Chapter 16, and he enjoys the company so much that he might stay with him forever.

22 EXP per physic use. 33 for each non-heal. Heaven-forbid she uses something big. Besides, if what Keven up there is saying is true and squishy-healing is really that useful, useful enough to make Janaff better than Elincia, then I'm sure we can spare the EXP needed to level Elincia up just twice (which won't be that much, considering staves) so she can kill squishies semi-reliably.

2 levels is like, 12 turns over two chapters if we splurge an entire Physic on her. More likely, she'll be using Mend, which is more like 19 turns over two chapters. She doesn't have the staff rank for Ashera, and Fortify is acquired in Chapter 27, so she doesn't really have those as options.

While as a point, I might consider this, almost every debate involving Mist v Rhys that I've seen has been praising Mist for her ability to not need physics and perform her job with heal/mend. Your point is well-made, but I am hesitant to accept it.

Those debates are correct. Mist does not really 'need' Physics in the same way Rhys does. But she can still make good use of them, for example, in Chapter 23, or Chapter 27, where even her movement is not enough to reach everyone.

1) Volke is not inferior to Janaff. He may not fly and may be more frail, but he has utility, effective bonus, and a master skill that isn't worthless (still probably not worth losing a Sol over, but not worthless either).

No, Volke is inferior. If I had my way, Volke would be chilling in Lower Mid below Ranulf. Chest Keys can cover every valuable item in the game with the exception of Boots and Volke's combat is terrible. I suppose Boots alone could propel him to Mid. Unbooted Reyson is a pain to work with.

2) The point I am trying to make is that Janaff's offense is matched by a character whom I'm sure most people don't want to level because, even if leveled, he's still too weak to be put into combat.

No, it isn't. Volke doesn't match Janaff's offense until he promotes and gets a Stiletto, and there's still the trouble of getting Volke to that level when he is the weakest combatant outside of like, Sothe and Rolf.

The fact that any unit, regardless of tier placement, can hit what Janaff can pump out at his best at the games half-way point is sad. Given 1-2 more chapters and I'm sure well over half the list will potentially tie with Janaff's level 20 MT or be so close and have other forms of utility to offer that it's not even laughable.

Yes, and that's why he's in Lower Mid. I mean, you laugh at Janaff's 33MT, but Ranulf will probably only reach 35 or 36 in an efficient playthrough, along with having no flight, an inferior gauge, and half the availability. For all that Janaff sucks, the people below him suck even harder.

Only Soren, Ilyana, Tormod, Rhys, Mist, and Elincia can heal other units in the game (Reyson too if you count his passive healing). The entire rest of the tier list (except for Volke and Sothe) is made up of units whose main, if not only, point is combat. Of the healers, Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod both start out as fighters and are fully capable of being fighters at a moments notice. Janaff's ability to kill squishies is not important. Literally, almost any other unit can do that. Elincia's ability to heal others is.

In order to efficiently beat a chapter, you need 10 fighters and 1 healer, so even though there are more fighters, you need more fighters anyway.

1) I am more than willing to wager that the majority of people did not do this. In fact, I can tell you just from the sheer number of 'Help me; Naesala keeps killing me' or 'How do I beat 19 without killing ravens' topics back in the day on Gamefaqs that a VERY large amount of people don't.

I am not going to bother arguing in any tier list based on your wild guesses of what the 'majority' does.

2) And what if you get the Ring?

It takes three turns, instead of two. I'm still not sure if the Knight Ring and BEXP actually saves any turns down the line.

3) Even if you could clear the chapter in -1 turns (impossible) why does this matter? It is TANITH who is clearing it (or Marcia/Jill), NOT Janaff! Janaff has no bearing on how fast you cleared it. It would seem much more fruitful to point out that, even if Janaff does untransform, you will be close to beating the boss anyways so you only have to deal with him being unshifted for a turn or two or something like that.

But that would be a lie. You can easily beat the chapter before Janaff unshifts at all, and there's not much reason not to do so. The enemies give pathetic exp since most of them are unpromoted, for instance.

[Zkirsche]

The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit. Jill, the tankiest flier, takes what is basically a quarter of her health bar in a single hit if she does get hit. I'm not arguing that Jill should move up or down, but that Janaff won't be getting the FG because every other flier wants and makes good use of it as well.

Did you even read what I said? Which was that jill doesn't even MIND taking a quarter health of damage. Marcia dodges everything. etc etc. I don't even understand this point: Elincia is weak to bows too, so the entire thing is moot. You also failed to cover the fact that we target on player phase/avoid them altogether as they're so uncommen that we can do that.

Elincia takes no resources to preform the same function as Mist with normal staves. While she may not have as much physic stave range, she can also fly over terrain to move into range to help counter-balance. Granted, Mist's physic range is superior, but that's not to say that Elincia doesn't have range either. Janaff is pretty useless even when he joins and only gets worse as chapters progress. Exp is, almost literally, wasted on him. At least Elincia doesn't do that thanks to staves.

But there is no terrain.

And when Janaff joins, how much exp will Mordi be getting per kill. Hmm?

That's when a majority of his levels is got, yes. But you once again fail to see the point: Mordy's 15 chapters are the not same as Janaff's.

Elincia needs just a mend staff to get to healing. To get to fighting softies she needs 2 levels on average for reliable killing with Amiti. Ignoring that she can get EXP from mopping up (yes, it may be favoritism and all, but it still is a source of EXP), 2 levels is NOT bank-breaking. Janaff needs multiple levels (and his levels are more costly too. Ouch) to keep competitive for those five chapters. Besides, anyone can kill softies. There are much better choices than a hawk who will be useless in a few chapters.

2 levels? 17 AS fails to double quite a bit you know. But hey, dealing ~14 damage to enemies with 30+ HP is a lot better than leaving them with single digit HP, you're so right.

So things like bushes, rivers, gardens, trees, and the like don't exist? And Mist has poor supports (I despise Mordi with a passion and firmly believe Mist and Jill will rarely be in range of each other), her combat is questionable (she needs both arms scrolls for a net total of kills that is laughable without the Hammerine), and her durability is irrelevant (Not only am I going to turn your question of 'why can't I just kill on the player phase' back on you, but healers have physic staves and will never be on the front lines anyways. Why does durability matter?). The only reason she is ranked high is because cruddy tier standards require that the player is a lobotomized chimp that can't protect his healers, invests multiple resources into something that is trivial overall (seriously. Mist gets 12 kills with the SS if she doesn't get the Hammerine. Mia may have lower magic, but with Wrath she can net more kills and only needs the mage band uniquely to pull it off), but somehow manages to keep a flier and a land unit together while activally seeking to get the lowest turn count for 'efficiency' which is different from actual efficiency and shows it by ranking a flier who sucks EXP for a degree of combat beaten by a thief higher than a 0-cost healer and is instead a thinly veiled speed run.

1) No they don't. See Red Fox's argument.

2) Elincia's is even worse.

3) We can't kill everything on the player phase, but we can target snipers.

4) No chokeholes to protect healers.

5) Said flier has canto and also [/i]likes[/i] the bonuses too.

Doubling Ravens past chapter 17 is not exactly noteworthy. I have swordmasters who may be fast enough (not to mention critical) and Astrid/Boyd may be able to pop one in the eye hard enough to make doubling useless. And Janaff also uses how much EXP to do this job? Elincia can just heal and be useful. Janaff NEEDS those kills to prolong his limited use fullness, and then he becomes useless again. Heck. I would even say Tauro is more useful than Janaff just because Tauro's defense means he can function as a barrier or something and, on the off chance he resolves, he will kill things. Janaff does what other units already did, will be dropped, and doesn't even offer a utility in return.

Janaff performs a task very few otehrs can do: double ravens. You keep hyping on about healing being a useful utility and somehow doubling enemies very few others can doesn't matter?

Problem 1: Elincia has a brave effect as long as she wielded Amiti. Janaff does not.

0 * 4 = 0. Do the math.

Problem 2: Elincia can heal. Janaff can not.

Yay, now Marcia has 100% HP instead of 99% HP. GJ Elincia.

Problem 3: Elincia can grow. Janaff caps out at 30/33 attack without a brave effect.

Elincia has 3 chapters of healing nothing to grow.

Thunder sages can kill them with a critical (which they have some of thanks to thunder), and I'm sure plenty of other units get at least into 2RKO range. Single-digit damage is just pitiful against them, especially for a combat-only unit.

Great so our only ways of killing them are:

-luck ass criticals

- mastery activations.

ZOMG, Janaff for bottom tier NAO !!!11!!one!

[RNG Princess]

what if he tries Elincia vs Tauroneo? Sounds like a better chance of success than Elincia vs Jannaf.

[Zkirsche]

Perhaps. Taur has use in chapter 21 and chapter 25 though. Elincia has next to nothing.

[Dark Sage]

Using a vulnerary, however, costs us a turn. Likewise with a stave. Even if you have both Mist, Rhys, and two sages, having Elincia allows you to either free up one of those units to heal/attack or to polish off a unit who has taken damage but isn't in threat range. Not only is this lacking a negative impact (unless your team is pretty large beforehand), but it has a pretty strong positive too in that you are getting units healed up. Plus, I suppose you can have her use a special staff or two. Even if Reyson is refreshing the healers, having an additional healer frees up that refresh to go to an attacker; at least in theory. It may not be a huge boost, granted, but it is still there.

You're defense for Elincia here is that she frees up a healer spot.

In the lategame of PoR.

Do you see the absurdity of your defense here? If you really want to defend Elincia properly, talk about stuff like the benefits of being a mounted healer and the ability to use a Rescue Staff. I would be surprised but knowing your hatred of efficiency...

Tauro's big problem is that there are other units who do his job better who aren't even in his class and have better offenses/movement to boot. Within his class, both Brom and Gatrie beat him without even taking join time into consideration just due to their ability to make use of the KW. If Tauro didn't have resolve, he would likely be the worst unit in the game or pretty damned close to it. Elincia may have little use, but little use > none at all.

Taur has situational use in Chapters 21, 25, and 28. And I wish you wouldn't say "Well if x unit didn't have y..." Fact is, he has Resolve and it allows for the potential of Rescue dropping Taur to the path of laguz in 28 with a Laguz Lance equipped and then having him kill a lot. It really is an efficient way of doing the chapter and he does face stuff like Tigers, Dragons, Bears oh my to get him to Resolved health. He can also manipulate his health and his chances of dying with a Vulnerary should you care.

Situational uses>Next to none

The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit. Jill, the tankiest flier, takes what is basically a quarter of her health bar in a single hit if she does get hit. I'm not arguing that Jill should move up or down, but that Janaff won't be getting the FG because every other flier wants and makes good use of it as well.

Kevin already covered this. Oh noes! Jill gets 5HKO'd at mediocre to poor hit rates by Snipers! FG immediately! Marcia and Tanith do have a better claim to it than Janaff does admittedly, though Marcia does have good avoid.

Elincia takes no resources to preform the same function as Mist with normal staves. While she may not have as much physic stave range, she can also fly over terrain to move into range to help counter-balance. Granted, Mist's physic range is superior, but that's not to say that Elincia doesn't have range either. Janaff is pretty useless even when he joins and only gets worse as chapters progress. Exp is, almost literally, wasted on him. At least Elincia doesn't do that thanks to staves.

....What?!

1. Elincia's base magic is so bad, she needs BEXP dumps to even make her acceptable at using staves. Like, 9 levels to reach 19 magic. You're trying to say with a straight face that we're going to sit on that much BEXP for a long time just so Elincia doesn't suck at healing. And she's promoted so it's a sizable size of BEXP. I mean nobody suggests giving Mist a BEXP dump that large and we wouldn't have to sit on the BEXP for long even if we for some reason did.

2. There's no more terrain in any of the chapters Elincia's in. Chapter 26 is a completely open field, 27 is inside, 28 she's not even deployable. That leaves Endgame, which is a grand total of one chapter. And even then, we're probably going fast enough that it won't matter. Hell, she probably doesn't even want to.

3. Sinking experience in Janaff gives us a combatant and effective rescuebot. Sinking experience in Elincia gives us a mediocre healer and flier for the very last stages of the game.

And when Janaff joins, how much exp will Mordi be getting per kill. Hmm?

Not a lot since he can do nothing for the first five turns of each map. In which case, the chapter should be mostly done by then.

Elincia needs just a mend staff to get to healing. To get to fighting softies she needs 2 levels on average for reliable killing with Amiti. Ignoring that she can get EXP from mopping up (yes, it may be favoritism and all, but it still is a source of EXP), 2 levels is NOT bank-breaking. Janaff needs multiple levels (and his levels are more costly too. Ouch) to keep competitive for those five chapters. Besides, anyone can kill softies. There are much better choices than a hawk who will be useless in a few chapters.

First of all Elincia has 18 might, 17 AS, and ass durability so mopping up is very risky. Second of all, she can barely do damage to stuff like paladins, she can only deal 12 damage to snipers, and you'd be nuts to advocate her going after Cats, Tigers and Swordmasters. I mean, Janaff deals a lot more damage to these guys and his durability is noticeably better. Besides, you're feeding Elincia exp so she doesn't suck for the last stages in the game. Slowing down and preventing our units from ORKOing enemies for the sole purpose of giving Elincia experience is going to slow us down.

So things like bushes, rivers, gardens, trees, and the like don't exist? And Mist has poor supports (I despise Mordi with a passion and firmly believe Mist and Jill will rarely be in range of each other), her combat is questionable (she needs both arms scrolls for a net total of kills that is laughable without the Hammerine), and her durability is irrelevant (Not only am I going to turn your question of 'why can't I just kill on the player phase' back on you, but healers have physic staves and will never be on the front lines anyways. Why does durability matter?). The only reason she is ranked high is because cruddy tier standards require that the player is a lobotomized chimp that can't protect his healers, invests multiple resources into something that is trivial overall (seriously. Mist gets 12 kills with the SS if she doesn't get the Hammerine. Mia may have lower magic, but with Wrath she can net more kills and only needs the mage band uniquely to pull it off), but somehow manages to keep a flier and a land unit together while activally seeking to get the lowest turn count for 'efficiency' which is different from actual efficiency and shows it by ranking a flier who sucks EXP for a degree of combat beaten by a thief higher than a 0-cost healer and is instead a thinly veiled speed run.

Ok what the hell is this?

1. Terrain doesn't exist in the last maps. That point is moot.

2. Mist's supports are bad? If you heard a screams, that was the sound of competent FE players. Guess what? Mist is Titania's, Boyd's, Mordi's, and Jill's best supports. Also your bellyaching over Mist and Jill keeping together is dumb as they have similar move, so it's far easier to keep them in range then you think. If Mist's supports are bad, then Elincia's are diarrhea.

3. Mist is going to be on the front lines because there are times when Rhys's range with Physics fail and Mist can be able to cover that. Also durability is good if Mist is going to reach her supports. The fact she has acceptable durability and exceptional movement means we can be much more flexible and quicker with our strategies then somebody like Rhys. Any competent tactician can see this. Then again, you've shown the fact several times that you aren't one so I'm probably wasting keystrokes here.

4. Again with the Mia + Sonic Sword hype. First of all, Mia doesn't have canto or the move Mist has, so advantage Mist. Second of all, this requires us to staple the Mage Band onto Mia for the entirety of her career to get something out of it when she'd rather have strength or defense bands throughout her playtime. With it she has 40% magic growth and keep in mind she has 0 base. 20/5 Mia needs 2 dusts to even match Tanith's base score and Tanith needs no resources to do that, plus flight, plus canto. I actually crunched the numbers and 20/0 Mia with the Mage band has 5.6 magic while 20/20 Mia with it has 15.2 magic. Yay? Mist takes BEXP but so does Mia. Their initial infusions are similar (400 BEXP to both) and they both want infusions over time. In fact, banded Mia with it at 20/3 has 8 magic with it and with the Sonic Sword + B Rhys, that's 20 might. She ORKO's nearly everything there but so does Mist at 20/1 and she reaches the enemies sooner and can retreat easier thanks to Canto. So in practice, she gets more use out of the SS. Actually, this is pretty much a trend throughout all their chapters. Mist sees more combat, so she gets more use out of the SS and that far offsets using up more of it. Also you complain about Mist the Hammerene needed to be used on the SS in Mist's hands. If you're going to use the SS, you're going to be using it on the SS eventually and it applies to any wielder. There's not many better weapons out there anyway that are worth repairing over the SS anyway and she probably only needs one use anyway. The horrors! Furthermore, you can trade the SS for another weapon when Mist finishes an attack with it, so she not only gains more use out of it, but also helps conserve the weapon as well, so that advantage Mia has offset. Also I talked to people like Ether and Bal and even Ether, who is Mia's number 1 fan, says Mia far prefers the Knight or Fighter Band over the Mage Band. You are exactly like Smash except for unit preferences, but even he recognized that Titania was the best unit in the game.

5. Your sneering at efficiency makes me wonder a) what your definition of efficiency is and b)what you're doing here if you hate it so much. Efficiency is the easiest way to tier since it provides a clear guideline and goal and still allows for flexibility in tiering to make sure lower tier units don't autobottom. We can't change the entire premise of a list because of one person. If you don't like it, make your own list.

Doubling Ravens past chapter 17 is not exactly noteworthy. I have swordmasters who may be fast enough (not to mention critical) and Astrid/Boyd may be able to pop one in the eye hard enough to make doubling useless. And Janaff also uses how much EXP to do this job? Elincia can just heal and be useful. Janaff NEEDS those kills to prolong his limited use fullness, and then he becomes useless again. Heck. I would even say Tauro is more useful than Janaff just because Tauro's defense means he can function as a barrier or something and, on the off chance he resolves, he will kill things. Janaff does what other units already did, will be dropped, and doesn't even offer a utility in return.

Few other characters can double the ravens. Janaff's ability to do so is useful and is more useful than some third rate healer already.

Problem 1: Elincia has a brave effect as long as she wielded Amiti. Janaff does not.

Leaving enemies with a large amount of HP is better than Janaff leaving enemies with single digits? Brave effect is superfluous at best.

Problem 2: Elincia can heal. Janaff can not.

That's cool. Except that Elincia's healing is really, really redundant and useless. So minor advantage at best.

Problem 3: Elincia can grow. Janaff caps out at 30/33 attack without a brave effect.

Again, brave effect is superfluous. Elincia growing requires handholding and BEXP dumps to completely offset the benefits. This doesn't happen with Janaff. Advantage: Janaff.

Thunder sages can kill them with a critical (which they have some of thanks to thunder), and I'm sure plenty of other units get at least into 2RKO range. Single-digit damage is just pitiful against them, especially for a combat-only unit.

You do realize you picked the strongest enemy unit on the map, and then used that as a benchmark for Janaff's combat performance throughout the game? That's known as misrepresenting an argument.

Why hello there Mr. Demiband!

Well that's great, except that Janaff doesn't need the Demi Band.

22 EXP per physic use. 33 for each non-heal. Heaven-forbid she uses something big. Besides, if what Keven up there is saying is true and squishy-healing is really that useful, useful enough to make Janaff better than Elincia, then I'm sure we can spare the EXP needed to level Elincia up just twice (which won't be that much, considering staves) so she can kill squishies semi-reliably.

The amount of resources to make Janaff be able to kill squishies is next to nothing compared to what Elincia has to go through to do that. Don't you get it? If we do give the same resources to Janaff that we gave to Elincia, then the gap widens further between them.

Ferrier and mediocre combatant with 8 maps over Elincia>Being an unneeded healer and terrible combatant for near the end of the game.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Dark Sage

[dondon151]

On a completely unrelated note, I think Sonic Sword is best used on Stefan.

[Dark Sage]

No no.

It's best on Ike! Aether + SS= Pwnage!

[Radiant Dragon]

On a completely unrelated note, I think Sonic Sword is best used on Stefan.

Why? Besides, wouldn't Hammerne be used best on Rescue, not the Sonic Sword?

Something that's been bugging me though: Why is Ena above Bastian? I know she's a tank, but... How useful is that? At least Bastian has decent attack due to hitting RES and can use the long range tomes.

[-Cynthia-]

Ena will generally have more Mt than Bastian, more to offset the Def/Res gap on most enemies anyway plus she has better Spd. Bastian can use long range tomes, but it's not a very good use of them since he can't double much with them.

Ena can also do damage to Ashnard, although it's not much and in 99% of cases Ike should be good enough that we don't need Ena.

[Dark Sage]

Bastian's offense is actually shit thanks to 19 base magic and 16 AS. He has no good offense by any stretch of the imagination. And he has lolknives instead of staves and doesn't have any good skills, suppors, or defense. Honestly, Ena's tanking is impressing more here.

[Balcerzak]

Ena does things besides Shove?

Still, she Shoves quite well.

[Radiant Dragon]

Base Bastian w/Elthunder: 26 might and 16 AS.

Base Ena w/Demi Band: 32 might and 17 AS.

I take back what I said about Bastian having decent attack; I sometimes forget tomes (besides the long range tomes) have horrible might in this game. Nevertheless, I don't believe the def/res gap is that small, and I also don't believe 17 AS manages to double anything significant that 16 AS doesn't. Meanwhile, Bastian has availability and range (both 1-2 and 3-10) to his advantage, while Ena is taking the Demi Band from a better Laguz. All Ena can really do is guard one of the entrances to the southern courtyard in Endgame or be a worse shove-bot than Mordecai. Bastian can at least help take out Dragons with Bolting, since they like to get in the way and not even Resolve!Ike ORKO's them without Wrath/Adept/something I'm forgetting.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Anouleth]

On a completely unrelated note, I think Sonic Sword is best used on Stefan.

I prefer letting Tanith keep it.

[-Cynthia-]

You just completely ignored my point about there being better siege tome users. We don't have an unlimited amount of them, and there's not much point giving one to Bastian if he's not going to be as good with it as Calill/Soren/Tormod/Ilyana.

@Def/Res gap Instead of "not believing", you could look up enemy stats instead. Obviously, Ena hits magic using units harder and there are several enemy types with a def/res gap around 3-4 (ravens, swordmasters) and some around 6 (halbs, paladins). Generals/tigers/wyvern lords do have larger gaps to be fair.

Eh, Ena being able to Shove is something and she is forced for all her chapters. That strikes me as better than Bastian's combat being slightly less lame against a few enemy types.

@Sonic Sword I think Tanith is the best user as well, no wasted Arms Scrolls and she gets more wyvern exposure than Mist does.

[Anouleth]

You just completely ignored my point about there being better siege tome users. We don't have an unlimited amount of them, and there's not much point giving one to Bastian if he's not going to be as good with it as Calill/Soren/Tormod/Ilyana.

@Def/Res gap Instead of "not believing", you could look up enemy stats instead. Obviously, Ena hits magic using units harder and there are several enemy types with a def/res gap around 3-4 (ravens, swordmasters) and some around 6 (halbs, paladins). Generals/tigers/wyvern lords do have larger gaps to be fair.

Eh, Ena being able to Shove is something and she is forced for all her chapters. That strikes me as better than Bastian's combat being slightly less lame against a few enemy types.

@Sonic Sword I think Tanith is the best user as well, no wasted Arms Scrolls and she gets more wyvern exposure than Mist does.

Bastian has more chapters of barely doing anything, though.

[Radiant Dragon]

You just completely ignored my point about there being better siege tome users. We don't have an unlimited amount of them, and there's not much point giving one to Bastian if he's not going to be as good with it as Calill/Soren/Tormod/Ilyana.

@Def/Res gap Instead of "not believing", you could look up enemy stats instead. Obviously, Ena hits magic using units harder and there are several enemy types with a def/res gap around 3-4 (ravens, swordmasters) and some around 6 (halbs, paladins). Generals/tigers/wyvern lords do have larger gaps to be fair.

Eh, Ena being able to Shove is something and she is forced for all her chapters. That strikes me as better than Bastian's combat being slightly less lame against a few enemy types.

@Sonic Sword I think Tanith is the best user as well, no wasted Arms Scrolls and she gets more wyvern exposure than Mist does.

Other people may be able to use siege tomes, but that doesn't mean Bastian can't.

There are far more physical units than magical ones, and they're usually more dangerous (except Sleep staff users). Besides, Generals, Tigers and Wyvern Lords are also some of the hardest enemies to kill, so Bastian doing better damage against them than Ena is a plus (chip damage isn't much at this point in the game, but it's more than what Ena offers). Anyone can kill magic users.

Ena is not forced in Chapter 28. And I don't find Ena being able to shove someone turn one (something any good beast Laguz can do, although Lethe misses Wyvern Lords and Male Paladins) is worth more than Bastian being able to contribute some kind of damage.

[Snowy_One]

Sorry for not posting. Was grounded.

Look at Elincia's freakin' maps. 26 is a beeline to the boss and Seize square completely clear of terrain, 27 is inside a damn castle, and the Final (she's not deployable in 28) is probably too fast her it to matter that she can fly over the fountain and hedges. And it probably wouldn't matter anyway.

Give it up, Snowy. This debate is pitiful. Arguing that Elincia can free up one of your 3 healers for a turn this late in FE9 is sheer desperation.

On chapter 26 there is plenty of hindering terrain around the sides of the map. While chapter 27 is indeed inside, reducing the advantage of fliers, the gardens and fountain in the endgame are indeed a notable advantage towards Elincia seeing as she is capable of flying around them. This both increases the ease she has of healing other units without physic staves, but allows for her to have better positioning. Besides, you people drool over movement. Elincia has a base of 9 move, while Mist has a base of 5 that jumps to 8 with promotion, meaning Elincia has a movement advantage over your other healers regardless.

And honestly, the 'free up' argument is basically the exact same one for Janaff, so I don't see what's so desperate about it. Janaff's MT is so low that he will not be a valid fighter at all in the endgame. His only 'use' will be in freeing up a combatant by killing off already weakened units. Too be frank, even Shinon is a better unit to raise, seeing as he ends up with a possible 39 MT with a forged silver and has access to bows. Sure, he lacks a enemy phase, but I don't think people interested in an 'efficient' clear will want the enemies attacking a hawk who can't kill, especially if you have tough units who CAN kill on the map like Jill or Oscar. Elincia may not have much of a use as a relief healer, but Janaff's use is the exact same thing except for combat.

Mr. Demiband is on holiday with his best friend Muarim until Chapter 16, and he enjoys the company so much that he might stay with him forever.

Don't see why that matters. Janaff won't be around, so by the time he joins, Mordi will indeed have the ability to be shifted for the entire map.

2 levels is like, 12 turns over two chapters if we splurge an entire Physic on her. More likely, she'll be using Mend, which is more like 19 turns over two chapters. She doesn't have the staff rank for Ashera, and Fortify is acquired in Chapter 27, so she doesn't really have those as options.

I don't understand why she would have to use mend when a better alternative exists, but hey, that's why you people treasure Mist so much. Why doesn't she have fortify as an option? Why can't she use the 33 EXP staves? The Hammerine alone can grant her 40 EXP per use.

Those debates are correct. Mist does not really 'need' Physics in the same way Rhys does. But she can still make good use of them, for example, in Chapter 23, or Chapter 27, where even her movement is not enough to reach everyone.

Then wouldn't Elincia's higher movement be a stronger advantage? Or at least her ability to function as a stand-in Mist for the other side of the map be valuable?

No, Volke is inferior. If I had my way, Volke would be chilling in Lower Mid below Ranulf. Chest Keys can cover every valuable item in the game with the exception of Boots and Volke's combat is terrible. I suppose Boots alone could propel him to Mid. Unbooted Reyson is a pain to work with.

Capable of stealing from enemies, identical (if not slightly superior) combat to Janaff, longer join time, Mastery skill that isn't completely useless (if still not worth losing a paladin-Sol). Wait, you are claiming Volke's combat is terrible, but then arguing Janaff up? When Volke joins, he has 14 MT in chapter 10 and is VERY fast. I would think raising him up combat-wise to be easier due to his earlier join-time and his combat better due to it's early-gameness.

No, it isn't. Volke doesn't match Janaff's offense until he promotes and gets a Stiletto, and there's still the trouble of getting Volke to that level when he is the weakest combatant outside of like, Sothe and Rolf.

You mean: No, it isn't. Volke doesn't match Janaff's endgame offense until he promotes and gets a Stiletto, which will happen about the same time, if not sooner, due to Volke only needing to be 20/8 for it and Janaff being 20/20 and there's still the trouble of getting Volke to that level despite that he has the early-game where he's not a bad fighter of necessity, but starts to wear off mid-game due to poor weapon MT's.

Seriously, Janaff doesn't even join until chapter 18. Assuming he gets a whopping 2 levels every chapter, it will take him until chapter 24 to cap out his level. Volke joins in chapter 10, and in order to reach 20/8 by chapter 24, he only needs to get slightly more than 1.25 levels per chapter. Seeing as his early-game combat is at least passable, and that Janaff will be unlikely to gain 2 levels per chapter, I would be more than willing to bet that Volke is better at actual combat than Janaff (and it's still useless).

In order to efficiently beat a chapter, you need 10 fighters and 1 healer, so even though there are more fighters, you need more fighters anyway.

And what if the player doesn't use that ratio? What if they don't use that combination? What if they are looking for which units are better, not more efficient? Your tier list is inaccurate then.

I am not going to bother arguing in any tier list based on your wild guesses of what the 'majority' does.

My 'wild guess' is based off of three to four years of being on a public-access forum that is in the public eye that has consistently had those questions asked for those years. Heck, a similar question is even in our 'look here before posting' section because people got sick of answering it. The only reason there isn't more is because focus shifted to the Wii and RD.

It takes three turns, instead of two. I'm still not sure if the Knight Ring and BEXP actually saves any turns down the line.

And some people like the ring. They don't care diddly about turn counts. Janaff's transform gauge matters to them.

But that would be a lie. You can easily beat the chapter before Janaff unshifts at all, and there's not much reason not to do so. The enemies give pathetic exp since most of them are unpromoted, for instance.

I can also beat chapter 13 before Janaff unshifts at all. So what? And what if the player doesn't follow that strategy? You can't just assume that the player will follow a specific plan to beat a chapter rapidly. They could easily not know about it, and end up taking time (as well as seeking the ring) at which point Janaff's gauge (and Laguz in general) is a issue. Besides, once again, Janaff doesn't matter at all in this plan. He could be off in Tahiti for all Tanith, or the player using this strategy, cares for this level.

Did you even read what I said? Which was that jill doesn't even MIND taking a quarter health of damage. Marcia dodges everything. etc etc. I don't even understand this point: Elincia is weak to bows too, so the entire thing is moot. You also failed to cover the fact that we target on player phase/avoid them altogether as they're so uncommen that we can do that.

Considering that you seem to have ignored what I said, I don't see why I should even bother. Here, let me say it again. The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit. Jill, the tankiest flier, takes what is basically a quarter of her health bar in a single hit if she does get hit. I'm not arguing that Jill should move up or down, but that Janaff won't be getting the FG because every other flier wants and makes good use of it as well.

The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit.

AVOID DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS STATEMENT! The point is that fliers take a lot of damage from bow units, as a result, Janaff will not get it! Why? BECAUSE EVERY FLIER WILL WANT IT! The whole thing relates back to THIS!

View PostSnowy_One, on 28 March 2011 - 06:18 AM, said:

As for Elincia vs. Janaff, one huge disadvantage to being Janaff is going to be his weakness to bows. Better units than him want the full guard, and Elincia can at least hang back on the back lines to do her job.

I could care less what anyone 'wants'. It might very well be that Janaff makes best use of the full guard (certainly, it's wasted on Jill who is tanky enough to take hits from bows), in which case it doesn't matter that the people he takes it from are 'better'.

As for Elincia, Elincia is NOT an active combatant. She is a healer first and foremost. What little combat she might see will be select and limited. Unlike Janaff who's only advantage is his combat. Janaff will see combat constantly. He will be exposed to bows and wind magic on a regular basis. Like every other flier, these things hurt when they hit (and remember, anything that can go wrong, will, so they WILL hit, likely at the worst time too). Since other fliers want the guard and are better than Janaff, it is unlikely that he will get it (Jill, Marcia, and Tanith would all have to not be played for him to have a chance). This means that ranged damage is a very real concern to him.

That's when a majority of his levels is got, yes. But you once again fail to see the point: Mordy's 15 chapters are the not same as Janaff's.

Indeed. They are worth much more seeing as he is a high-damage hitter with solid defense in the early game and can be redeemed into a solid fighter for the late. Janaff can not.

2 levels? 17 AS fails to double quite a bit you know. But hey, dealing ~14 damage to enemies with 30+ HP is a lot better than leaving them with single digit HP, you're so right.

Considering that the only units either will be used against will be squishies whom other combat units can kill without a problem without their help, I don't think it really matters.

1) No they don't. See Red Fox's argument.

2) Elincia's is even worse.

3) We can't kill everything on the player phase, but we can target snipers.

4) No chokeholes to protect healers.

5) Said flier has canto and also [/i]likes[/i] the bonuses too.

1) Yes they do. Saying there is no terrain doesn't change that it still is there on 26 and endgame and the fact that Elincia's ability to fly over it is an advantage.

2) It is near-impossible to be worse than a EXP leech who needs 12 levels to do damage equal to what a 20/8 thief can do and offers no other redeeming qualities. Especially when you have access to healing.

3) Why not? We have 10 combat units after all. That means we would need to be attacked by 11 enemies at once in order for there to be a problem. I don't think that even happens outside of defend-chapters (which have defensive spots).

4)So freaking what? If Mist is healing without physic staves, than she can easily pass out of range of Jill due to, you know, HEALING! If Jill is doing what fliers are doing for their goals, she will be doing things like flying up hillsides and such. Things that easily put Mist out of range. Sure, it may be possible to keep them together, but it is somehow easier to keep Jill and Mist together than it is to ensure Rhys doesn't get crubstomped? Or a sniper from being attacked on the enemy phase without hindering the team?

Janaff performs a task very few otehrs can do: double ravens. You keep hyping on about healing being a useful utility and somehow doubling enemies very few others can doesn't matter?

Chapter 18 Ravens. Max AS: 18. Zihark 20/1 AS: 22 Mia 20/1 AS: 22. Oh hey: Boyd with a forged Iron bow deals more than enough damage to at LEAST drop them down to single digits; if not kill them. Oh. And Janaff only deals 28 damage a round to them. Oscar with a forged steel axe deals 18-19 damage, still a 2RKO. In fact, I don't think it is possible for Janaff's little extra damage to really matter unless we are using very low-tier units.

Yay, now Marcia has 100% HP instead of 99% HP. GJ Elincia.

Healing for 1% >>>>>>>> Not killing a unit most other units would have killed just as well (which would be a negative). Positives > negatives.

Besides, who says Elincia is just healing measily 1 HP nicks? There will be times when you take far more damage. And hey, against Ashnard, Elincia does decrease the number of turns seeing as she can heal up units before/after they attack Ashnard to let them live longer and have more attacks. More attacks = faster Ashnard kill.

Great so our only ways of killing them are:

-luck ass criticals

- mastery activations.

ZOMG, Janaff for bottom tier NAO !!!11!!one!

Nice strawmanning. Thunder sages do possess the capability to kill them thanks to their critical rates and effective bonus. Other units who won't kill can at least push towards 2RKO/3RKO range. Janaff does single-digit damage. For a combat unit, this is VERY VERY BAD!

Do you see the absurdity of your defense here? If you really want to defend Elincia properly, talk about stuff like the benefits of being a mounted healer and the ability to use a Rescue Staff. I would be surprised but knowing your hatred of efficiency...

Because my history of being against Mist in Mist v. Rhys and the arguments I have used has made it very clear that I do not agree with the 'advantages' of being a mounted healer. Even now, in Elincia v. Janaff, I am claiming that Elincia's utility as a healer is good enough to make her better, not the advantages of being a mounted healer. I cannot claim to defend those advantages, lest I go against what I have said before.

Situational uses>Next to none

Except this isn't true. Elincia is a viable healer for three chapters and certainly no worse than Mist is for those 3. She can be deployed without touching a single drop of EXP, which Tauro cannot do for his three chapters of use. And even if Tauro is deployed, he is unable to double unless resolved and his movement will kill him. At the least, Reyson will need to canto him multiple times just to let him keep up with the group (never mind fighting). Even if he does keep up, his lack of speed will make him a target for enemies since he will be unable to kill them in return. If you care so much for turn efficiency, I would think that a combat unit who is incapable of killing on the enemy phase would be a HUGE negative!

1. Elincia's base magic is so bad, she needs BEXP dumps to even make her acceptable at using staves. Like, 9 levels to reach 19 magic. You're trying to say with a straight face that we're going to sit on that much BEXP for a long time just so Elincia doesn't suck at healing. And she's promoted so it's a sizable size of BEXP. I mean nobody suggests giving Mist a BEXP dump that large and we wouldn't have to sit on the BEXP for long even if we for some reason did.

2. There's no more terrain in any of the chapters Elincia's in. Chapter 26 is a completely open field, 27 is inside, 28 she's not even deployable. That leaves Endgame, which is a grand total of one chapter. And even then, we're probably going fast enough that it won't matter. Hell, she probably doesn't even want to.

3. Sinking experience in Janaff gives us a combatant and effective rescuebot. Sinking experience in Elincia gives us a mediocre healer and flier for the very last stages of the game.

At base, a Mend stave heals 20 HP regardless of magic. This means Elincia is healing 32 HP per turn. Oscar has a max of 48 HP. He would need to have less than 16 HP in order to not be fully healed by Elincia. Even then, he would need less than 10 HP to not be above 40. Maybe a Laguz or HP sponge like Boyd would have a issue with Elincia's 'low' healing, but most units won't.

As for terrain, 26 has plenty along the sides of the map, and the terrain in endgame does matter, especially if you aren't intent on beating it rapidly. I would say that that is a key edge.

Lastly, she's no worse a rescue-bot than Janaff is; except Janaff is below-par as a fighter even when given absurd amounts of EXP to force an early cap. I don't think there is a non-Astrid/Tormod unit in the game that can net something along the lines of what it takes Janaff to tie with a thief who got to the level that Janaff is at much earlier.

Not a lot since he can do nothing for the first five turns of each map. In which case, the chapter should be mostly done by then.

That largely only matters if you focus on speed. Besides, if Mordi really is so bad because he can't even fight until the map is almost done, why is he in upper mid? Clearly he has some good use during that time.

First of all Elincia has 18 might, 17 AS, and ass durability so mopping up is very risky. Second of all, she can barely do damage to stuff like paladins, she can only deal 12 damage to snipers, and you'd be nuts to advocate her going after Cats, Tigers and Swordmasters. I mean, Janaff deals a lot more damage to these guys and his durability is noticeably better. Besides, you're feeding Elincia exp so she doesn't suck for the last stages in the game. Slowing down and preventing our units from ORKOing enemies for the sole purpose of giving Elincia experience is going to slow us down.

Why is it that people intentionally ignore key points I make in my statements to counter things that I didn't say? I am only talking about soft units, like mages and bishops. I do not think Elincia will be fighting things like paladins. HOWEVER! Against these units that Elincia struggles against, Janaff is an outright inferior combatant compared to the vast majority of the team. For Elincia, being able to kill mages and healers is a bonus in addition to being a superior Mist (at least if you feel Mist's advantage is in her being able to heal without physic staves) for three chapters. For Janaff, fighting is his whole world! If he can't fight, he's a hindrance! Elincia can heal, and will be doing so mainly. Janaff will be throwing worthless damage against units while taking kills and EXP from the team to do so when Volke is a better choice to use than him for combat. FREAKING VOLKE!

Ok what the hell is this?

1. Terrain doesn't exist in the last maps. That point is moot.

2. Mist's supports are bad? If you heard a screams, that was the sound of competent FE players. Guess what? Mist is Titania's, Boyd's, Mordi's, and Jill's best supports. Also your bellyaching over Mist and Jill keeping together is dumb as they have similar move, so it's far easier to keep them in range then you think. If Mist's supports are bad, then Elincia's are diarrhea.

Good thing I'm not talking about Elincia's supports then, eh?

My problem with Mists supports is this. Mist is a healer. The reason people consider her superior to Rhys is because she can rush with her movement to heal using mend instead of using a physic. Doing this, however, means she needs to run every which way in order to heal various units. Meanwhile, Jill is a flier, and as such, needs to do things that involve flying over various pieces of terrain. THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE IF YOU ARE TRYING FOR LOW TURN COUNTS! So somehow, the player is capable of keeping Mist and Jill together, without sacrificing healing or turn counts, and going for a minimum turn count; BUT is incapable of protecting mages, healers, and snipers from being attacked?

Plus, once again, if Mordi (Mist's other main support) doesn't transform until after turn 5 and isn't useful until then, that means that, at the least, for five turns Mist's other support is basically useless.

3. Mist is going to be on the front lines because there are times when Rhys's range with Physics fail and Mist can be able to cover that. Also durability is good if Mist is going to reach her supports. The fact she has acceptable durability and exceptional movement means we can be much more flexible and quicker with our strategies then somebody like Rhys. Any competent tactician can see this. Then again, you've shown the fact several times that you aren't one so I'm probably wasting keystrokes here.

Like when? When would Rhys's superior physic staff range fail to heal a unit that Mist's movement would be able to heal? I cannot think of a single instance in the game when this would happen. I can, however, think of slews of the opposite example. Why is Mist's durability an issue? If the player is competent, then they won't EVER be letting their healers be attacked. It's just a bad idea. A competent tactician knows how to use use the strength of one unit to cover the weaknesses of others to get a stronger team overall.

Besides, this tier lost any credibility towards flexibility when it apparently became focused on LTC and using specific strategies to beat chapters much faster and in ways a player who didn't know the strategies would be capable of knowing.

4. Again with the Mia + Sonic Sword hype. First of all, Mia doesn't have canto or the move Mist has, so advantage Mist.

Mia has the STR to use the RS when it comes along later and isn't useless after it breaks. Not to mention she can kill them in one hit thanks to criticals, making her kill count with it much higher. Advantage; Mia X2.

Second of all, this requires us to staple the Mage Band onto Mia for the entirety of her career to get something out of it when she'd rather have strength or defense bands throughout her playtime.

Except whenever, in the past, I have suggested that she even look in the general direction of a STR/DEF band, I've gotten hissyfits thrown about how other units use it better. Fair enough I say. No unit can use the mage band better then Mia. And hey, the mage band isn't even needed. The dusts can do the same job.

With it she has 40% magic growth and keep in mind she has 0 base. 20/5 Mia needs 2 dusts to even match Tanith's base score and Tanith needs no resources to do that, plus flight, plus canto.

Flight and canto are irrelevant to how well Tanith actually uses the sword. Also, Mia has 9 MAG at 20/5 with the band compared to Tanith's base of 10. Oh. And Mia has +ATT supports. Advantage: Mia. Heck, even without the dusts, Mia is getting +3 attack from a B Rhys, B Ilyana at this point, and gets a A Rhys come chapter 19. So a 20/5 Mia doesn't need resources either to tie a base Tanith.

I actually crunched the numbers and 20/0 Mia with the Mage band has 5.6 magic while 20/20 Mia with it has 15.2 magic. Yay?

Good thing she gets +2 magic when she promotes then, eh?

Mist takes BEXP but so does Mia. Their initial infusions are similar (400 BEXP to both) and they both want infusions over time.

Mia's Bexp is used for combat though, so even after the SS breaks, it's useful. Mist's is for healing, so once the SS is gone... well... It's pretty useless except for physic stave range. Oh wait; we were using Mist because of how good she was without the physic staves! So it doesn't matter! Advantage: Mia!

In fact, banded Mia with it at 20/3 has 8 magic with it and with the Sonic Sword + B Rhys, that's 20 might. She ORKO's nearly everything there but so does Mist at 20/1 and she reaches the enemies sooner and can retreat easier thanks to Canto.

Not only does having Mist do this cost us a healer, but Mia can critical, and kill with vantage as well. Mist can only afford to net 12 kills before the SS breaks, which is about 3-5 kills per chapter or so. Not only is Mia's kill rate higher because of critical rates (and wrath later on), but she isn't useless once the SS has run its course and the Hammerine hasn't come along yet. And once again, Canto and movement have 0 effect on who actually uses the sword better.

So in practice, she gets more use out of the SS. Actually, this is pretty much a trend throughout all their chapters. Mist sees more combat, so she gets more use out of the SS and that far offsets using up more of it.

Mist gets more combat than a actual combat unit despite being able to only get an average of 3-5 kills per chapter and being useless once it inevitably breaks AND being the groups main healer?

Also you complain about Mist the Hammerene needed to be used on the SS in Mist's hands. If you're going to use the SS, you're going to be using it on the SS eventually and it applies to any wielder. There's not many better weapons out there anyway that are worth repairing over the SS anyway and she probably only needs one use anyway. The horrors!

I'm not complaining that she needs to use the hammerene. I'm complaining that the staff doesn't even exist until later on, meaning until it comes, she is highly limited in her kills (3-5 per chapter). I'm also complaining that she lacks combat ability outside of the SS. The RS is too heavy for her and her combat ability with swords is lack-luster at best otherwise. Even at 20/20 with full attack supports (Boyd/Mordi), she only has 21 Attack before the weapon. That is not good. At least Mia has her attack supports to help her get past 21.

Also I talked to people like Ether and Bal and even Ether, who is Mia's number 1 fan, says Mia far prefers the Knight or Fighter Band over the Mage Band. You are exactly like Smash except for unit preferences, but even he recognized that Titania was the best unit in the game.

I never said I wouldn't like the STR/DEF bands on Mia. Once again, any time I brought it up in the past on gamefaqs though, it was met with enough scorn to effectivally kill the notion. Eventually, I just stopped suggesting it.

5. Your sneering at efficiency makes me wonder a) what your definition of efficiency is and b)what you're doing here if you hate it so much. Efficiency is the easiest way to tier since it provides a clear guideline and goal and still allows for flexibility in tiering to make sure lower tier units don't autobottom.

The problem is that 'efficiency' has become synonymous with 'turn count'. To me, a good unit is one who preforms well under a multitude of strategies that can apply to multiple players and playstyles. Not just one obsessed with beating the game in a rapid manner. You can still make a tier without considering things like 'well if we preform a very specific strategy on this chapter with these units, we can beat the game with a few less turns; so those units should move up' and still have it be clear.

We can't change the entire premise of a list because of one person. If you don't like it, make your own list.

The problem is that, quite often, that one person is RIGHT. Just having the masses agree with you means diddly squat as they can easily be wrong. Ruling by public opinion results, often, in a mass overwhelming the minor regardless of truth. Truth knows no side, and it should never be determined by the masses.

That's cool. Except that Elincia's healing is really, really redundant and useless. So minor advantage at best.

And Janaff's combat is inferior to practically every other unit in the entire game. A thief can potentially beat him at a much lower level for crying out loud! Not only is Janaff's combat equally useless to Elincia's, it's actually harmful to the team (enemy phase units) and he can't offer anything back; unlike Elincia who heals mainly and won't be focusing on combat.

You do realize you picked the strongest enemy unit on the map, and then used that as a benchmark for Janaff's combat performance throughout the game? That's known as misrepresenting an argument.

You realize that the point is that, against certain enemies, Janaff is practically tinking. This wouldn't be so bad, if he wasn't a combat-only unit. Elincia can heal. That she tinks some enemies is pointless, because she can still aid the team via staff. That Janaff basically does this though is a bad thing. He can't aid the team any other way.

Well that's great, except that Janaff doesn't need the Demi Band.

Then he has to deal with the fact that he runs the risk of shifting out if the chapter drags on too long.

The amount of resources to make Janaff be able to kill squishies is next to nothing compared to what Elincia has to go through to do that. Don't you get it? If we do give the same resources to Janaff that we gave to Elincia, then the gap widens further between them.

Ferrier and mediocre combatant with 8 maps over Elincia>Being an unneeded healer and terrible combatant for near the end of the game.

You mean the 0 resources we need to give Elincia, not even EXP, to allow her to heal, followed by a potential two levels to allow for potential squishy killing? Okay then. Janaff enters into the endgame at level 10. His MT is 27 and he has 18 AS. Elincia can heal. I think that cliches who wins when we give Janaff as much resources as we need to give Elincia. I suppose he can have 4750 G (value of a physic and mend staff) to spend on Vulernaries or pimp out his beak or something.

Janaff is a inferior combatant for all of his chapters. He's not just 'mediocre'. He's outright inferior. His one utility is in raven-doubling, and even that he fails at due to his MT being too low for an actual kill. Other units can double or push for a 2RKO through sheer brute power and aren't limited by becoming useless later on. Elincia may be a redundant healer, but it is at least an actual use that she can perform decently well. Oh. Also, the first Raven doesn't even show up until turn 4. Wouldn't the map both need to last that long and have Janaff still shifted by the time those ravens got there for him to be even capable of doubling them?

[Colonel M]

That's it. I held off long enough.

And honestly, the 'free up' argument is basically the exact same one for Janaff, so I don't see what's so desperate about it. Janaff's MT is so low that he will not be a valid fighter at all in the endgame. His only 'use' will be in freeing up a combatant by killing off already weakened units. Too be frank, even Shinon is a better unit to raise, seeing as he ends up with a possible 39 MT with a forged silver and has access to bows.

You're now going to tell me fucking Shinon is better than Janaff? Here, let's swallow your words whole.

Shinon at base has 9 Strength, which means 27 Attack with a forged Silver Bow. He has a low CEXP gain when he's around at the beginning, so at best he might be Level 3. That means he gains +1 Str and +1 AS. At best, Shinon would have 28 Atk and 14 AS. In Chapter 19 Shinon fails to double 11 enemies out of 22. He ORKOes 5 of them. 5. Janaff misses ORKOing the same amount of units. Don't even try to argue a BEXP dump either. He doubles like the piss slowest of enemies in the game. Oh, let's go further. Durability. 34 HP | 10 Def. Enemies 2-3RKO him (2HKOes are from the Warrior and Fighter). Janaff has 39 HP | 14 Def. He's practically 4RKOed AT WORST.

Please. Kindly. Shut. The. Fuck. Up. If it takes Shinon a forge and BEXP dump to be INFERIOR to BASE JANAFF that FUCKING SUCKS. What's Shinon's only advantages? He has growths which barely matter behind his shittacular bases, a Turn 1, and 2 range. Hell I bet Janaff does more on Turn 1 simply by shoving a unit and removing. Yeah, that's right, I'm using Janaff shoving a unit on Turn 1 better than what Shinon does once he returns to Ikey-poo. Try to beat that.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

I thought Janaff got a turn 1 because he started with 16 gauge and gains 4 at the beginning of the turn.

Why? Besides, wouldn't Hammerne be used best on Rescue, not the Sonic Sword?

When did I say anything about Hammerne being used on the Sonic Sword?

I prefer letting Tanith keep it.

Well, you can either have a 27 atk Tanith with a forged Javelin and an 18 atk Stefan with Sonic Sword, or a 20 atk Tanith with Sonic Sword and a Stefan that can't counter at 2 range.

Maybe I was trying to make the statement too broad, but my point was that Stefan should be using the Sonic Sword in the cases where he has to counter an enemy at 2 range while Tanith can suffice with a Javelin forge. Or a Spear, I guess.

Edited April 2, 2011 by dondon151

[Radiant Dragon]

When did I say anything about Hammerne being used on the Sonic Sword?

That part was directed towards others who were saying Hammerne should be saved for the Sonic Sword.

Well, you can either have a 27 atk Tanith with a forged Javelin and an 18 atk Stefan with Sonic Sword, or a 20 atk Tanith with Sonic Sword and a Stefan that can't counter at 2 range.

Maybe I was trying to make the statement too broad, but my point was that Stefan should be using the Sonic Sword in the cases where he has to counter an enemy at 2 range.

Ah, okay. That makes sense, then.

[Anouleth]

Well, you can either have a 27 atk Tanith with a forged Javelin and an 18 atk Stefan with Sonic Sword, or a 20 atk Tanith with Sonic Sword and a Stefan that can't counter at 2 range.

I generally only break out Sonic Sword when Wyverns are around. It seems too weak for anything else.

And I should probably mention that I don't have any Stefan at all, since I don't like to go out of my way to recruit him in Chapter 15. I know you like to recruit everyone, so it's probably different for you. In general, I also use a large proportion of 9 move units, so I am perfectly happy to have Stefan with no 2-range counter when he's ambling about ten spaces behind the front line.

Maybe I was trying to make the statement too broad, but my point was that Stefan should be using the Sonic Sword in the cases where he has to counter an enemy at 2 range while Tanith can suffice with a Javelin forge. Or a Spear, I guess.

Tanith is manly, but not quite manly enough to be able to kill a Wyvern with a Javelin.

[Colonel M]

I thought Janaff got a turn 1 because he started with 16 gauge and gains 4 at the beginning of the turn.

I could be remembering wrong. I thought he didn't until Turn 2. *Shrugs*. I admit to not playing this game in a while and there isn't info about it on the main site.

[Anouleth]

I could be remembering wrong. I thought he didn't until Turn 2. *Shrugs*. I admit to not playing this game in a while and there isn't info about it on the main site.

I can't say I've ever used Janaff, but Lethe has the same gauge type and she definitely transforms at the start of turn 1.

[Colonel M]

I can't say I've ever used Janaff, but Lethe has the same gauge type and she definitely transforms at the start of turn 1.

Yeah, chances are then Janaff has Turn 1.

Looks like Shinon after returning to the GMs just has 2 Range to his name and growth. Pity.

[Zkirsche]

@Colonol M: there is stuff on the site actually:

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/transform.html