American Exceptionalism

[Doom103]

"It has been said that the US does not have an ideology, it is an ideology. One needs only to look at the ubiquitous American flag to realise that there might be some truth in this. US culture is riddled with patriotism, and too often it is not a ‘clean’ patriotism, in that pride is felt about the United States in and of itself, but rather a ‘dirty’ patriotism wherein everything that is not American is actively put down, ‘dumbified’ or ridiculed. If one accepts this as being the case, then the question arises: Why? What is the basis for this American need to constantly glorify itself, to make itself out to be special, set apart, almost holy, in relation to all other nations? At first glance it might seem like something of a paradox. If we disregard the comparatively minute number of Native Americans, the US is entirely made up of the historically recent descendants of European and Asian immigrants, the descendants of African slaves, and, even more recent, immigrants from Central America and the Caribbean. One would think, then, that if there were one nation on the planet devoid of national prejudice, the United States would be it. Clearly, this is not the case. But the paradox is only apparent, for it is indeed from this very multicultural nature that the aggressive American patriotism arises.

: - Sellevold, Martin (2003). "A Look At American Exceptionalism"

I thought it was very relevant

What is your opinion on what this guy said

I agree 100%

I am the same way, racist at times to Chinese, French and South Americans because they aren't American. I'm not racist towards their people as I am to their flag. Which is ironic because I do not believe the world should have one flag, and one culture.The American patriotism tainted me in a way, but after reading this I realized it and I suddenly don't feel a hate towards those non-American places.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

I essentially agree with him.

[Phoenix Wright]

"It has been said that the US does not have an ideology, it is an ideology. One needs only to look at the ubiquitous American flag to realise that there might be some truth in this. US culture is riddled with patriotism, and too often it is not a ‘clean’ patriotism, in that pride is felt about the United States in and of itself, but rather a ‘dirty’ patriotism wherein everything that is not American is actively put down, ‘dumbified’ or ridiculed. If one accepts this as being the case, then the question arises: Why? What is the basis for this American need to constantly glorify itself, to make itself out to be special, set apart, almost holy, in relation to all other nations? At first glance it might seem like something of a paradox. If we disregard the comparatively minute number of Native Americans, the US is entirely made up of the historically recent descendants of European and Asian immigrants, the descendants of African slaves, and, even more recent, immigrants from Central America and the Caribbean. One would think, then, that if there were one nation on the planet devoid of national prejudice, the United States would be it. Clearly, this is not the case. But the paradox is only apparent, for it is indeed from this very multicultural nature that the aggressive American patriotism arises.

: - Sellevold, Martin (2003). "A Look At American Exceptionalism"

I thought it was very relevant

What is your opinion on what this guy said

I agree 100%

I am the same way, racist at times to Chinese, French and South Americans because they aren't American. I'm not racist towards their people as I am to their flag. Which is ironic because I do not believe the world should have one flag, and one culture.The American patriotism tainted me in a way, but after reading this I realized it and I suddenly don't feel a hate towards those non-American places.

I don't care much for this country's acceptance of other peoples, unless it gets violent. I mean, If I could, I would try to make this country more tolerant, but that's not going to happen. I shouldn't stress over things that will fix itself (possibly, in this case) over time.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Old Snake

[Agro]

America has always come off as patriotic to me. I'm glad someone with a brain agrees.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Wander

[Jyosua]

This guy misspelled wholly as "holy", claims it seems like a paradox that a nation comprised of descendants of immigrants of many other nations, are discriminatory towards most foreign things, which IS a paradox, and then says it's only apparent.

You guys don't seem to understand what this guy said. He just stated that the reason people are so aggressively patriotic is BECAUSE they're descendants of other countries. He's not agreeing with your viewpoints, in which you believe it's stupid to be discriminatory because of it's paradoxical nature. He's wrong though, it's not only apparent, it IS indeed a paradox, and one people should be well aware of before they go spouting off xenophobic comments. The fact this country is composed of immigrants or descendants of immigrants makes anyone who's xenophobic a hypocritical retard.

[Esau of Isaac]

This guy misspelled wholly as "holy", claims it seems like a paradox that a nation comprised of descendants of immigrants of many other nations, are discriminatory towards most foreign things, which IS a paradox, and then says it's only apparent.

You guys don't seem to understand what this guy said. He just stated that the reason people are so aggressively patriotic is BECAUSE they're descendants of other countries. He's not agreeing with your viewpoints, in which you believe it's stupid to be discriminatory because of it's paradoxical nature. He's wrong though, it's not only apparent, it IS indeed a paradox, and one people should be well aware of before they go spouting off xenophobic comments. The fact this country is composed of immigrants or descendants of immigrants makes anyone who's xenophobic a hypocritical retard.

He meant "holy", not "wholly". To use the sentence with different words would be something along the lines of:

"What's the point in the United States setting itself apart, such that it is almost to be considered holy, compared to other countries?"

[lolDeath]

I am the same way, racist at times to Chinese, French and South Americans because they aren't American

It must take a lot of effort to be racist towards groups which are not races.

[quanta]

I'm not sure if the author is saying something trite, hyperbolic, or both. Every country has people who behave this way. And America is on the better behaved end of the scale. Xenophobia is a pretty natural human thing (which obviously doesn't make it a good thing); the country you're in strongly influences what you call home and thus who you consider to be foreign as well as what you consider to be normal. To make a comparison, if someone was born in Germany instead of the U.S. and is somehow predisposed towards being or turns into a xenophobic nut, he would probably just freak out about Muslims instead Mexicans.

I would hazard to guess that a more accurate statement for what's true of most people would probably be something Obama said to a European interviewer: "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism." Obviously there will be some difference in the form and intensity due to cultural differences and differences in level of power, but it's really nothing remarkable and to focus on it overly much for some inane reason strikes me as a waste time that would be much better spent doing something useful (or maybe trying to go fix some of the things you think are broken).

It's good to realize that xenophobia is largely pointless and can be harmful and to understand the difference between justified and unjustified pride and patriotism, but keep in mind these flaws are not a phenomena that's predominantly American.

America has always come off as patriotic to me. I'm glad someone with a brain agrees.

You need to redefine what you mean by "someone with a brain" (although I'm quite sure the person had a brain as do most humans and many other animals). A hackneyed statement really isn't enough information for you to be determining said things. This statement is almost as hackneyed as the opposing viewpoint of "America is a unique place with a history that has uniquely positioned it to lead the world". Both this statement and the original posted one have some level of truth in them somewhere, but neither is particularly insightful or specific to America. One could have said much the same things about Britain only a century or two ago.

[Phoenix Wright]

This guy misspelled wholly as "holy", claims it seems like a paradox that a nation comprised of descendants of immigrants of many other nations, are discriminatory towards most foreign things, which IS a paradox, and then says it's only apparent.

You guys don't seem to understand what this guy said. He just stated that the reason people are so aggressively patriotic is BECAUSE they're descendants of other countries. He's not agreeing with your viewpoints, in which you believe it's stupid to be discriminatory because of it's paradoxical nature. He's wrong though, it's not only apparent, it IS indeed a paradox, and one people should be well aware of before they go spouting off xenophobic comments. The fact this country is composed of immigrants or descendants of immigrants makes anyone who's xenophobic a hypocritical retard.

In my defense, I wasn't replying to what the guy said, only to what Shawn_J_F said.

And from your interpretation (which is correct, imo), this book (or article, whatever the hell this is) seems a little useless to us now. This was probably a "big thing" in '03, but it's been six years, and a lot of us already know this.

[Jyosua]

He meant "holy", not "wholly". To use the sentence with different words would be something along the lines of:

"What's the point in the United States setting itself apart, such that it is almost to be considered holy, compared to other countries?"

Wow... I misread it. Somehow I combined different sentences together thinking he was talking about how the nation is wholly comprised of the immigrants of many others in that one. I read a little too fast there I guess.

It's good to realize that xenophobia is largely pointless and can be harmful and to understand the difference between justified and unjustified pride and patriotism, but keep in mind these flaws are not a phenomena that's predominantly American.

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

In my defense, I wasn't replying to what the guy said, only to what Shawn_J_F said.

And from your interpretation (which is correct, imo), this book (or article, whatever the hell this is) seems a little useless to us now. This was probably a "big thing" in '03, but it's been six years, and a lot of us already know this.

I realize most of you were agreeing with Shawn's comment, which I took note of, as those thoughts are correct. However, I was simply pointing out that the original quotation isn't actually in agreement as well.

[Phoenix Wright]

He meant "holy", not "wholly". To use the sentence with different words would be something along the lines of:

"What's the point in the United States setting itself apart, such that it is almost to be considered holy, compared to other countries?"

Wow... I misread it. Somehow I combined different sentences together thinking he was talking about how the nation is wholly comprised of the immigrants of many others in that one. I read a little too fast there I guess.

It's good to realize that xenophobia is largely pointless and can be harmful and to understand the difference between justified and unjustified pride and patriotism, but keep in mind these flaws are not a phenomena that's predominantly American.

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

In my defense, I wasn't replying to what the guy said, only to what Shawn_J_F said.

And from your interpretation (which is correct, imo), this book (or article, whatever the hell this is) seems a little useless to us now. This was probably a "big thing" in '03, but it's been six years, and a lot of us already know this.

I realize most of you were agreeing with Shawn's comment, which I took note of, as those thoughts are correct. However, I was simply pointing out that the original quotation isn't actually in agreement as well.

Oh, I know. :D That's why I said your interpretation was right in my opinion.

[Crystal Shards]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

No it's not. No one is pure-blooded; therefore, xenophobia is hypocritical on some level for every single person on this planet. Even if you were born and raised in Germany, your ancestors eventually had to come from somewhere, and I can bet you it wasn't Germany. The same goes for every other country out there (after all, country lines are rather arbitrarily set and have changed many times throughout history). Just because America recently joined the world as a "melting pot" doesn't mean it's more hypocritical for Americans to be xenophobic. Besides, xenophobia doesn't necessarily equate to other nationalities... It's a fear of strangers, which is often interpreted as foreigners, but I know plenty of people who are xenophobic of people who live in the same state as them just because they're "from up North," "have weird traditions," or "practice that funky religion." Being an American often has little to nothing to do with it.

[Jyosua]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

No it's not. No one is pure-blooded; therefore, xenophobia is hypocritical on some level for every single person on this planet. Even if you were born and raised in Germany, your ancestors eventually had to come from somewhere, and I can bet you it wasn't Germany. The same goes for every other country out there (after all, country lines are rather arbitrarily set and have changed many times throughout history). Just because America recently joined the world as a "melting pot" doesn't mean it's more hypocritical for Americans to be xenophobic. Besides, xenophobia doesn't necessarily equate to other nationalities... It's a fear of strangers, which is often interpreted as foreigners, but I know plenty of people who are xenophobic of people who live in the same state as them just because they're "from up North," "have weird traditions," or "practice that funky religion." Being an American often has little to nothing to do with it.

You're being WAY too critical there. Okay, sure, when you get right down to it, nobody is pure-blooded. It's inevitable due to evolution, migration, and all that wonderful shit. However, I'm talking within a few generations, like a max of 5. And true, xenophobia really means in relation to anything that's considered strange or foreign. However, in the context we're using it, it's referring only to people and things foreign to this country.

[quanta]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

I'd say it isn't necessarily any more hypocritical at all assuming you yourself did not immigrate. The actions of your ancestors don't affect whether or not you yourself are a hypocrite. Inconsistent or irrational? Yeah, but this holds for anyone with these beliefs. I fail to see much difference on level of hypocrisy based upon someone else's actions.

You're being WAY too critical there. Okay, sure, when you get right down to it, nobody is pure-blooded. It's inevitable due to evolution, migration, and all that wonderful shit. However, I'm talking within a few generations, like a max of 5. And true, xenophobia really means in relation to anything that's considered strange or foreign. However, in the context we're using it, it's referring only to people and things foreign to this country.

I'd argue that their is very little difference between five generations ago and two hundred in terms of how strongly acclimated somebody is to a particular culture. If you, your parents, and your grandparents are all second generation or later, the fact that you know your family moved more recently seems unlikely to have any meaningful effect on something that is not a rational behavior to start. It's not like you have your ancestors' experiences. Shit, in the U.S., most people are pretty well absorbed into the culture by the third or fourth generation.

Obviously, a certain level of conscious xenophobia would be hypocritical from a first generation immigrant, but even your parents being immigrants already creates a large gap.

[Jyosua]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

I'd say it isn't necessarily any more hypocritical at all assuming you yourself did not immigrate. The actions of your ancestors don't affect whether or not you yourself are a hypocrite. Inconsistent or irrational? Yeah, but this holds for anyone with these beliefs. I fail to see much difference on level of hypocrisy based upon someone else's actions.

You're being WAY too critical there. Okay, sure, when you get right down to it, nobody is pure-blooded. It's inevitable due to evolution, migration, and all that wonderful shit. However, I'm talking within a few generations, like a max of 5. And true, xenophobia really means in relation to anything that's considered strange or foreign. However, in the context we're using it, it's referring only to people and things foreign to this country.

I'd argue that their is very little difference between five generations ago and two hundred in terms of how strongly acclimated somebody is to a particular culture. If you, your parents, and your grandparents are all second generation or later, the fact that you know your family moved more recently seems unlikely to have any meaningful effect on something that is not a rational behavior to start. It's not like you have your ancestors' experiences. Shit, in the U.S., most people are pretty well absorbed into the culture by the third or fourth generation.

Obviously, a certain level of conscious xenophobia would be hypocritical from a first generation immigrant, but even your parents being immigrants already creates a large gap.

To your first reply: the hypocrisy lies in your existence, not your actions, in this case. I'd venture to say maybe a more apt word would be antithetical.

To your second:

Okay. Consider the following:

"I hate Mexicans." As your Mexican immigrant parents stare at you in disbelief.

Clearly hypocritical.

"I hate Mexicans." As your sweet old Mexican immigrant grandmother looks at you in horror.

Obviously the same.

I'd even venture to say the same as far as your great grandparents go, however the level of interaction with them differs among people, especially since many people's great grandparents are dead, like mine.

Any farther than that, I can see how it may be possible for one to forget their own roots, however, I'm sure your parents would remind you of them.

[Crystal Shards]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

I'd say it isn't necessarily any more hypocritical at all assuming you yourself did not immigrate. The actions of your ancestors don't affect whether or not you yourself are a hypocrite. Inconsistent or irrational? Yeah, but this holds for anyone with these beliefs. I fail to see much difference on level of hypocrisy based upon someone else's actions.

You're being WAY too critical there. Okay, sure, when you get right down to it, nobody is pure-blooded. It's inevitable due to evolution, migration, and all that wonderful shit. However, I'm talking within a few generations, like a max of 5. And true, xenophobia really means in relation to anything that's considered strange or foreign. However, in the context we're using it, it's referring only to people and things foreign to this country.

I'd argue that their is very little difference between five generations ago and two hundred in terms of how strongly acclimated somebody is to a particular culture. If you, your parents, and your grandparents are all second generation or later, the fact that you know your family moved more recently seems unlikely to have any meaningful effect on something that is not a rational behavior to start. It's not like you have your ancestors' experiences. Shit, in the U.S., most people are pretty well absorbed into the culture by the third or fourth generation.

Obviously, a certain level of conscious xenophobia would be hypocritical from a first generation immigrant, but even your parents being immigrants already creates a large gap.

To your first reply: the hypocrisy lies in your existence, not your actions, in this case. I'd venture to say maybe a more apt word would be antithetical.

To your second:

Okay. Consider the following:

"I hate Mexicans." As your Mexican immigrant parents stare at you in disbelief.

Clearly hypocritical.

"I hate Mexicans." As your sweet old Mexican immigrant grandmother looks at you in horror.

Obviously the same.

I'd even venture to say the same as far as your great grandparents go, however the level of interaction with them differs among people, especially since many people's great grandparents are dead, like mine.

Any farther than that, I can see how it may be possible for one to forget their own roots, however, I'm sure your parents would remind you of them.

I don't get where you're going with this. I can say I hate Mexicans and it's not hypocritical because I'm not Mexican?

[Jyosua]

Very, very true. However one needs to realize it's much more hypocritical to be xenophobic in America than in other countries, due to the fact this country was built off immigration, and therefore with the exception of the very few Native Americans left, everyone is basically a foreigner or a descendant of one, and it makes very little sense to be xenophobic of America's very own roots.

I'd say it isn't necessarily any more hypocritical at all assuming you yourself did not immigrate. The actions of your ancestors don't affect whether or not you yourself are a hypocrite. Inconsistent or irrational? Yeah, but this holds for anyone with these beliefs. I fail to see much difference on level of hypocrisy based upon someone else's actions.

You're being WAY too critical there. Okay, sure, when you get right down to it, nobody is pure-blooded. It's inevitable due to evolution, migration, and all that wonderful shit. However, I'm talking within a few generations, like a max of 5. And true, xenophobia really means in relation to anything that's considered strange or foreign. However, in the context we're using it, it's referring only to people and things foreign to this country.

I'd argue that their is very little difference between five generations ago and two hundred in terms of how strongly acclimated somebody is to a particular culture. If you, your parents, and your grandparents are all second generation or later, the fact that you know your family moved more recently seems unlikely to have any meaningful effect on something that is not a rational behavior to start. It's not like you have your ancestors' experiences. Shit, in the U.S., most people are pretty well absorbed into the culture by the third or fourth generation.

Obviously, a certain level of conscious xenophobia would be hypocritical from a first generation immigrant, but even your parents being immigrants already creates a large gap.

To your first reply: the hypocrisy lies in your existence, not your actions, in this case. I'd venture to say maybe a more apt word would be antithetical.

To your second:

Okay. Consider the following:

"I hate Mexicans." As your Mexican immigrant parents stare at you in disbelief.

Clearly hypocritical.

"I hate Mexicans." As your sweet old Mexican immigrant grandmother looks at you in horror.

Obviously the same.

I'd even venture to say the same as far as your great grandparents go, however the level of interaction with them differs among people, especially since many people's great grandparents are dead, like mine.

Any farther than that, I can see how it may be possible for one to forget their own roots, however, I'm sure your parents would remind you of them.

I don't get where you're going with this. I can say I hate Mexicans and it's not hypocritical because I'm not Mexican?

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

[Crystal Shards]

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

No, if I wanted to fuck with you I'd have taken your example and ran with it. I was honestly asking you what your point was, because I don't see the relevance, even in the context quanta had drawn up.

Way to be a douche about it though by making me out to be a bad guy with bad intentions. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Crystal Shards

[Jyosua]

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

No, if I wanted to fuck with you I'd have taken your example and ran with it. I was honestly asking you what your point was, because I don't see the relevance, even in the context quanta had drawn up.

Way to be a douche about it though by making me out to be a bad guy with bad intentions. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.

Sorry but you struck me as overly critical, and suggested I meant something I clearly didn't mean with my example.

[Crystal Shards]

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

No, if I wanted to fuck with you I'd have taken your example and ran with it. I was honestly asking you what your point was, because I don't see the relevance, even in the context quanta had drawn up.

Way to be a douche about it though by making me out to be a bad guy with bad intentions. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.

Sorry but you struck me as overly critical, and suggested I meant something I clearly didn't mean with my example.

I didn't suggest anything. I asked. When you don't know something, you do that instead of assuming. You basically did what you were attacking me for, and what you have claimed several times you were going to try to stop doing. Please, in the future, keep that in mind.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Crystal Shards

[Jyosua]

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

No, if I wanted to fuck with you I'd have taken your example and ran with it. I was honestly asking you what your point was, because I don't see the relevance, even in the context quanta had drawn up.

Way to be a douche about it though by making me out to be a bad guy with bad intentions. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.

Sorry but you struck me as overly critical, and suggested I meant something I clearly didn't mean with my example.

I didn't suggest anything. I asked. When you don't know something, you do that instead of assuming. You basically did what you were attacking me for, and what you have claimed several times you were going to try to stop doing. Please, in the future, keep that in mind.

The words "do you mean..." did not appear anywhere. You may have omitted them, however that changes the tone of your post. Regardless, this is senseless to argue over this.

[Crystal Shards]

For crying out loud, stop taking examples word for word! I give up on you Crystal. You clearly just like to fuck with me, even though you know damn well what I meant.

Aside from that, those examples were toward quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical. That doesn't mean just because you aren't Mexican you can hate Mexicans. That's just basically just being racist against Hispanics, forget xenophobia.

No, if I wanted to fuck with you I'd have taken your example and ran with it. I was honestly asking you what your point was, because I don't see the relevance, even in the context quanta had drawn up.

Way to be a douche about it though by making me out to be a bad guy with bad intentions. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.

Sorry but you struck me as overly critical, and suggested I meant something I clearly didn't mean with my example.

I didn't suggest anything. I asked. When you don't know something, you do that instead of assuming. You basically did what you were attacking me for, and what you have claimed several times you were going to try to stop doing. Please, in the future, keep that in mind.

The words "do you mean..." did not appear anywhere. You may have omitted them, however that changes the tone of your post. Regardless, this is senseless to argue over this.

Just because I didn't ask a question starting with, "Do you mean..." doesn't mean it wasn't a question.

[quanta]

From wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn...

xenophobia- a fear of foreigners or strangers

racism- the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

OR discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

hypocrisy- # an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction

# insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

hypocrite- a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives

The actual meaning of hypocrite has very little connection to what you're talking about. You can't be a hypocrite by virtue of someone else's actions or speech alone. Also, xenophobia =/= racism.

To your first reply: the hypocrisy lies in your existence, not your actions, in this case. I'd venture to say maybe a more apt word would be antithetical.

To your second:

Okay. Consider the following:

"I hate Mexicans." As your Mexican immigrant parents stare at you in disbelief.

Clearly hypocritical.

"I hate Mexicans." As your sweet old Mexican immigrant grandmother looks at you in horror.

Obviously the same.

I'd even venture to say the same as far as your great grandparents go, however the level of interaction with them differs among people, especially since many people's great grandparents are dead, like mine.

Any farther than that, I can see how it may be possible for one to forget their own roots, however, I'm sure your parents would remind you of them.

Racism isn't equivalent to xenophobia; racism is particular manifestation of xenophobia. You could be a xenophobe (like oh... you have an irrational fear of your Muslim neighbors from Pakistan but you don't hate them or discriminate against them- which means you aren't really a racist) whose parents immigrated from Mexico. Your behavior isn't even particularly odd seeing as you grew up in the U.S. and the Pakistanis next door are about as far removed from Mexicans as they are from the average German. Irrational? Silly? Overly Worried? Probably. But not hypocritical

If you hate yourself and your family because of their skin color? You're not a hypocrite, you're just fucked up. Besides, you can't be a hypocrite by existing unless you hold that you yourself shouldn't exist. You have to say one thing and do the opposite (or something that would strongly imply you actually believe the opposite of what you said) to be a hypocrite. Stupidity, irrationality, or weird beliefs relative to your background aren't hypocrisy.

quanta who was putting forth the idea that descendants of immigrants are too far removed from their culture for xenophobia towards groups they in reality belong to, to actually be hypocritical.

I wasn't referring only towards xenophobia towards the actual group your parents belong to (although once again, that's not hypocritical; you're using the wrong word) but rather towards any xenophobia displayed by people whose family recently immigrated to more recent immigrants.

Maybe you dislike or fear a different immigrant group. Maybe you're generally distrustful of people from a different home country but ok with people of the same ethnicity who are from the same country as you. But neither of these things is hypocritical in and of itself.

How many generations back your ancestors started living inside some political boundary has very little influence on whether or not you're a hypocrite for being a xenophobe (to be a hypocrite for being xenophobic you'd have to actually speak out against xenophobia) or how irrational you are. It's an equally silly to stupid behavior no matter what.

Maybe what you're actually talking about (which isn't hypocrisy) is a violation of the golden rule by behaving badly towards strangers of a different group than yours but expecting fair treatment from strangers of different groups than yours. But this holds for anyone who is xenophobic yet holds that people ought to be polite towards each other. It doesn't have to have any connection to you or your family's status. Most people from any country will at some level display this split between their behavior towards others and how they want others to behave towards them. It only becomes truly hypocritical when it's more conscious or the difference between action and words is more extreme.

[Jyosua]

Maybe what you're actually talking about (which isn't hypocrisy) is a violation of the golden rule by behaving badly towards strangers of a different group than yours but expecting fair treatment from strangers of different groups than yours. But this holds for anyone who is xenophobic yet holds that people ought to be polite towards each other. It doesn't have to have any connection to you or your family's status. Most people from any country will at some level display this split between their behavior towards others and how they want others to behave towards them. It only becomes truly hypocritical when it's more conscious or the difference between action and words is more extreme.

I'll just reply to this, because this is mostly what I'm talking about. Perhaps the correct label would be inconsistency, however, I label it as hypocritical because most people consciously expect fair treatment from all other groups, regardless of whether or not they treat others the same way. In my opinion that is the very basis of hypocrisy -- when you consciously choose a behavior that is inconsistent with other behaviors of yours, and still do it even after being told about the inconsistency.