FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[Inui]

I have so many best friends here, then.

[Reikken]

I want to make friends too...

Anyway, wow, debaet is raging in this topic. tl;dr though. Except that post at the top of this page.

A mage with 40% MAG growth will have less of a chance to get "blessed" than a mage with 50%/60% MAG growth. That is all he is saying.

This statement, however, is incorrect. To be "blessed" in a stat, as far as I am aware, means to gain more points in that stat than is normal to gain. For example, if Erk gains 5 points of Mag in 10 levels, he has been blessed in Mag because this indicates a 50% growth in Mag while his actual growth is only 40% (so he's been blessed by 1 point of Mag, or 10% growth). Similarly, if Erk gains 3 points of Mag in the same 10 levels, he has been screwed in Mag because this indicates a 30% growth. So there is really no significance at all as to the actual % growth. Lucius' 60% Mag growth is just as likely to be blessed or screwed as is Erk's 40% Mag growth--on the other hand, it is indeed true that maximum deviation from the average occurs at levels closest to 50%.

Oh but it is correct. But probably not really what the poster thinks. Lower growths do indeed have an extremely (like 0.5% iirc) slightly lower chance to be blessed than do higher growths. And at the same time, they also are blessed by slightly more when they are blessed. But for all practical purposes, this difference is so small that it's not even worth mentioning even in the most detailed discussions unless you're dealing with 5-10% growths, where it becomes a slight difference rather than an extremely slight difference.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Reikken

[Dat Nick]

"He doesn't double anything ever unpromoted" is a significant exaggeration. Dread Isle has steel axe pirates with 3-4 AS and alot of pegs with steel/javelin who might as well be flying knights with less Def. 19x is just like "voila" and hands you alot of axereaver pegs (4 AS) and knights.

Okay, these are still strictly the slowest enemies on the map, and said Dread Isle is a FoW map we're trying to end ASAP so it can't be assumed I'm going to take the time to sniff out a slowpoke for Canas to kill.

I don't have stats on 20 or 21 atm, but as already posted there's a significant number of enemies with 6 AS or less in 22.

I.e enemies Canas doesn't double since he won't be 17/0 by then? So why even bring 6 AS up?

That's a five level lead, which is very close to the assumed four levels, and certainly not a "HELL of a lot more

That kind of IS a hell of a lot more, especially since it's close to six levels. Look at his speed. It's more than double Canas's essential 7 base. Canas's response: 1 defense, and that's not even there if Erk gets to 14 first and procs speed.

Canas generally doesn't need more than Flux.

Okay, so what? Erk generally doesn't need more than Thunder.

If he does, Erk needs more than Thunder as well, but where's that going to come from?

If at any point besides Endgame that Thunder isn't enough...enlighten me as to how the hell Canas isn't any better off?

At this point Canas can pull out Luna, Erk can pull out a white flag.

Luna? You mean the "I try to crit only I get one chance of doing so and if I don't crit I wind up missing the ORKO by an even larger margin spell", or essentially the retarded version of a killing edge? Yes, Erk has nothing to combat this! He just...pulls out Thunder and one rounds the enemy, guaranteed or close 80% of the time.

There's a mage with Elfire in 17x, a Pirate with a Hammer, and IIRC some other weighed down guys. Canas can double that stuff. Lucius doesn't exist in this chapter so w/e.

wtf. Is that an intentional Lucius sandbag or are you honestly this stupid?

And sure, Canas can double the Elfire mage. Have fun dealing actual damage, though! The issue isn't that Canas has nothing he can't double, it's that things he CAN double are so rare.

Omitted? You're the one who referred to his AS as bad in general, not just before promotion.

no

I said that his AS before promotion sucked, notice how that's all I said in response to your well-thought out award winning LOLPROMOTION argument?

Lol, you're not even trying at this point. Canas not taking counters means it's not hard to use him. The other mages have no relevance to this, because the entire crux of your argument lies in Canas' starting situation, and this ties directly in to that.

He doesn't take counters (which is not true either, 1-2 ranged weapons do exist), proving...what exactly? Did you completely hand-wave his offense or what? I'm going to argue Wil up on the tier list because he's easy to use and doesn't take counters! He doesn't double jack shit you say? Not a problem!

The other mages have no relevance to this

How the fuck is that so? This is a fucking debate about Canas vs the other mages! The other mages have ALL THE RELEVANCE IN THE WORLD TO THIS!

Also, read: "Did Canas's AS problem magically disappear in the 7 or so years since FE7 came out?" You don't think that has an arrogant tone to it? Lol.

How is it arrogant if it's a fact? The fact is that Canas has an AS problem before promotion however much you want him not to have one. My post was a representation of this. Thus it is not arrogant as it is based off a proven fact.

Canas isn't going to be 20/- since that would be dumb, promoting him almost ASAP seems best, if anything.

Just ignoring all the competition for the guiding rings and promoting him first, huh? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Canas needs to wait for a ring like everybody else. Erk can deal with not being promoted much easier than Canas can, which is another point in Erk's favor.

Maybe enemies generally get faster, but Knights and stuff like Steel Bow Archers exist.

Yes, and they're not the only enemies on the map either.

Canas can kill archers and knights.

Erk can kill those and nearly everybody else on the map. Gee, I wonder who's better?

If Canas benefits more from promotion than Erk and Lucius and promoted Canas > promoted Erk/Lucius, Canas would promote first. This was a bad thing to bring up.

No, it wasn't, because whether or not Erk gets the first ring, Canas is still waiting in line with him to promote. You've got the healers who want to attack, and Lucius who wants to heal.

Btw, promoted Canas>Promoted Erk isn't even true. Did you not just see those stats about how a 20/1 Erk>16/1 Canas? You know, the ones you completely conceded to?

It's not, because both escape being doubled by Nomadic Troopers, Heroes and Valkyries, but neither double them. Canas can take out significantly more enemies, including magical units, with Luna, though. Erk has nothing here.

There you go again with Luna hype. It's a terrible spell, I have no idea why you're so intent on fapping all over it. Look, there's a 75%-ish chance that Luna is not doing fuck or shit against fast enemies or mages, Canas having a chance to kill Heroes while Erk can't does not make him ZOMGWTF PWNZORING Erk's face, in fact Luna's pretty useless against them just because it's so goddamn unreliable. Second, Monocle Man's AS is weighed down big time with Luna equipped, and if you attack a hero you bet your ass that if Luna doesn't crit, that hero is going to get pissed off and ORKO Canas the next turn. At LEAST Erk has the means to avoid being doubled ever.

You've essentially conceded that Erk is worse than Canas anyway with this:

My bad, misread the average stats. Well, Canas still overtakes Erk eventually, but eh, not enough to matter. This is more important against Lucius.

If defending Lucius actually takes effort, I'll leave it be and let somebody else take it. My only intent was to prove that Canas is NOT the best mage.

My Erk loves to have horrendous Mag making him unable to one-round even unpromoted enemies when he has Thunder, so I don't like him at all. I will take Canas, Lucius, and Pent over him any day because their Atk can't ever be bad.

ITT, Whorio uses personal experience as an argument in a tier list. Then he tries to justify it with bullshit arithmetic.

Seriously, Whorio. Not even I thought you were this bad.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

ITT, Whorio uses personal experience as an argument in a tier list. Then he tries to justify it with bullshit arithmetic.

Seriously, Whorio. Not even I thought you were this bad.

Are the debaters here really as dumb and arrogant as they seem?

I clearly don't think such a thing matters in a tier list. It's a random thing about Erk that bothers me and stops me from using him a lot, which is what I said. I didn't say it should alter his spot on a tier list.

I sandbag like crazy in random ass topics, btw.

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/392617/1/?x=40

I didn't sandbag in those, lol.

[Florete]

Are the debaters here really as dumb and arrogant as they seem?

I clearly don't think such a thing matters in a tier list. It's a random thing about Erk that bothers me and stops me from using him a lot, which is what I said. I didn't say it should alter his spot on a tier list.

I've got to side with Inui (Horio?) here, I thought it was pretty obvious he wasn't trying to make a point against Erk.

[CATS]

Okay, these are still strictly the slowest enemies on the map, and said Dread Isle is a FoW map we're trying to end ASAP so it can't be assumed I'm going to take the time to sniff out a slowpoke for Canas to kill.

They're strictly the slowest enemies on the map and they also constitute a significant portion of the enemies.

I.e enemies Canas doesn't double since he won't be 17/0 by then? So why even bring 6 AS up?

6 AS or less. Canas has a reasonable shot at 10 AS at 15/0 and is highly likely to have at least 9.

Edited February 10, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

They're strictly the slowest enemies on the map and they also constitute a significant portion of the enemies.

Enemy numbers/stats, plox? Erk's better at this time regardless, so I don't see how it changes anything anyway.

6 AS or less. Canas has a reasonable shot at 10 AS at 15/0 and is highly likely to have at least 9.

"at least 9" does not double 6. Also, Flux weight.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[CATS]

Pirates lose 5 AS from steel axe. Dread Isle pirates have 8-9 Spd. I'll give screenshots if you rly want, I guess.

Pegs with heavy weapons and knights, do you really need me to explain those?

Five steel lance pegs and three steel axe pirates starting on Dread Isle, javelin pegs come in pairs as reinforcements. Six axereaver pegs and eight knights on 19x.

Erk may indeed still be better. That's not the point. You said Canas doesn't double anything ever unpromoted, which isn't even close to being true.

9-10 AS at L15 is after accounting for Flux's weight. Read the post again. For the third time, 6 AS or less. There are a significant number of enemies with 6 AS or less.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Are the debaters here really as dumb and arrogant as they seem?

Man you are cool! I wish I was you!

[Colonel M]

When I was badged at Smogon, my badge used to say "I could be cool!"

Unfortunately the policy changed and it became Pre-Contributor. >_>

Edited February 10, 2010 by Colonel M

[Florete]

Man you are cool! I wish I was you!

R3v4n wishes he was Horio.

I wish I was R3v4n.

Does that mean I wish I was Horio?

Edited February 10, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

R3v4n wishes he was Horio.

I wish I was R3v4n.

Does that mean I wish I was Horio?

It's as my mother once told me: you can be whoever you want to be if you dream hard enough. Anything is possible.

[Dat Nick]

9-10 AS at L15 is after accounting for Flux's weight.

No, it's 10.45 BEFORE Flux reduction at level 5 (I highly question seven levels in 5-6 chapters, btw, considering 17x isn't usually done by killing a whole lot and how C19x is the infamous anti-magic barrier)It's already iffy to assume ..50 or .55 procs, you don't see the issue in .45, IF Canas is at the level you put him at?

[Narga_Rocks]

No, it's 10.45 BEFORE Flux reduction at level 5 (I highly question seven levels in 5-6 chapters, btw, considering 17x isn't usually done by killing a whole lot and how C19x is the infamous anti-magic barrier)It's already iffy to assume ..50 or .55 procs, you don't see the issue in .45, IF Canas is at the level you put him at?

I think that his point is that at level 15 Canas will probably double anything with 5 AS and under since he'll have at least 9 AS rather often, and if he ends up on the higher side of his average then he'll double 6 AS as well. Without checking feaverages, I'm assuming it's gotta be at least 40% for him to have 10AS at that level, which is high enough that it certainly can't be ignored.

Of course, this assumes no complaints about the level itself, and you've made a complaint about the given level.

(edit: fea's fe7 doesn't seem to be working, so can't check it out. Of course, at level 14 where he drops to 10.1 makes it rather unlikely for him to have 11 -1 = 10 AS at level 14. That extra level is important for the point about 6AS enemies, otherwise it just becomes a point about 5AS and under enemies)

Edited February 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

If this is ranked, I would assume 15/0 Canas by chapter 23 or something.

[Inui]

My name is Inui, not Horio. Screw that joke character. Interceptor is an ass. Ugh.

I agree with CATS, btw.

[Florete]

I agree with CATS, btw.

I don't think you need to say that anymore. I'm betting everyone can just assume you always agree with CATS unless you directly reply to him.

[Inui]

I don't think you need to say that anymore. I'm betting everyone can just assume you always agree with CATS unless you directly reply to him.

Haha. I suppose. Of the three Elite G0ds of Debaet that hang around FEFF/FEP/SF (Reikken, CATS, Solid), CATS is my favorite and I agree with him the most.

I do debate with him often, though. I'm actually excited to test my skillz against him in Oujay vs Thany since I haven't formally faced him in quite some time.

Anyways, yeah, I'm a CATS fanboy and I'll admit it.

[Narga_Rocks]

My name is Inui, not Horio. Screw that joke character. Interceptor is an ass. Ugh.

I gotta give props to Smash and Paperblade now. I'm not sure they've ever complained about being called Smish Phonetic and AdjectiveNoun. Well, maybe a long time ago.

I suppose I should instead state that I've never seen them complain, but at the same time also state that I haven't seen many of their posts from before June of 2009, so I don't really know.

[Inui]

I'm honest and vocal, so...

[Florete]

I gotta give props to Smash and Paperblade now. I'm not sure they've ever complained about being called Smish Phonetic and AdjectiveNoun. Well, maybe a long time ago.

I suppose I should instead state that I've never seen them complain, but at the same time also state that I haven't seen many of their posts from before June of 2009, so I don't really know.

I don't even recall the nickname "AdjectiveNoun" for Paperblade. And if smash were to choose something to complain about, I don't think Smish Phonetic would be his first choice, if you know what I mean.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't even recall the nickname "AdjectiveNoun" for Paperblade. And if smash were to choose something to complain about, I don't think Smish Phonetic would be his first choice, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, smash has a long list of things to complain about before getting to Interceptor's nicknames. Plus I suppose Smish Phonetic is probably not as insulting as this one is. Still, though, of all the things they complained about, Int's nicknames for them never seemed to be one of them.

[Dat Nick]

My name is Inui, not Horio. Screw that joke character. Interceptor is an ass. Ugh.

I agree with CATS, btw.

No, of course not, there's a reason I addressed you as Whorio.

[Inui]

No, of course not, there's a reason I addressed you as Whorio.

[Dat Nick]

I'll take that Kermit image as a seal of approval.

Either or time is being wasted. Even if Canas is doubling "consistently" (Erk's still doing it much more reliably) he is not doing notably better than Erk in offense, defense, and he doesn't have Erk's earlygame utility either. Erk>Canas plox

Edited February 10, 2010 by Fred Fuchs