FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[CATS]

Where did I say Erk is worse than however many units you named? Maybe I did, but I don't remember it......

Canas actually needs a speed proc to double Flux shamans, so he loses there. Erk has no shot at the mercs until he's at least 14/0 with 14 AS, and even then that only doubles the slowest 8/0 merc.

The L6 shamans usually get 5 Spd, yeah, but 3 of the 4 of those starting on the map have Nosferatu which is an automatic 0 AS. The L4 shamans are more likely to have 4 Spd iirc. The reinforcements are one L4, one L5, one L6 all with Flux, so that's a tossup I guess. But when you throw in the possibility of Canas getting that Spd proc, I think he is able to get a pretty significant number of them on average.

[HJ.]

Oops, that was a brain fart on my part. I'll edit the post.

[dondon151]

Of course other characters have an impact on the debate in some regards, I never said otherwise. That's just a straw man fallacy. Besides, like WJC said, Erk is worse than Marcus/Guy/Matthew/Lowen/Hector/Oswin/Dorcas, so... again, what are we arguing? Erk's combat position is no more favorable than Canas'.

I wasn't trying to establish a fallacy as much as I was trying to make an analogy. Erk's position is more favorable than Canas's in the sense that the progression is something like units -> Erk -> more units -> Canas, so Erk still wins.

Er, sticking Marcus in the middle and letting all the enemies attack him and get raped is much faster than slowly moving your other units along, making sure you're positioning them tactically and such. Those pegs in chapter 14 seem to be the only problem here, and Erk sucks against those.

If Marcus puts 4 cavaliers in OHKO range, then wouldn't you agree that it'd be faster if 4 units waiting outside of their attack range picked them off on player phase rather than Marcus waiting another turn to kill them?

Another thing which I noticed was never commented on is that the arena is rather risky in HHM unless you have Lucius' Def, which makes all the enemies have crap equipment.

The arena is pretty safe if you take bets below like 700G or something.

[HJ.]

I wasn't trying to establish a fallacy as much as I was trying to make an analogy. Erk's position is more favorable than Canas's in the sense that the progression is something like units -> Erk -> more units -> Canas, so Erk still wins.

Oh, certainly. But in theory that's no different from later on where it's: units -> Canas -> more units -> Erk -> even more units, where Canas would then win. So at this point we're back to arguing how significant Erk's earlygame leads are in comparison to Canas' lategame leads.

If Marcus puts 4 cavaliers in OHKO range, then wouldn't you agree that it'd be faster if 4 units waiting outside of their attack range picked them off on player phase rather than Marcus waiting another turn to kill them?

Of course, but are there really Cavaliers (or other enemies) that Marcus doesn't one-round? I don't remember any, but if there are then I'd have to concede this point, depending on how plentiful they are.

[Florete]

I don't know about everyone else, but I figured we'd just start with GFaqs list and make it our own from there. Either that or have someone that actually posts on GFaqs, like Mori, re-post the tier list here.

[Tangerine]

That's what I suggested earlier. Someone who is actually active in our tier topics should re-post the list. I would rather you or I do it, considering Reikken doesn't post much anymore. This is still the GameFAQs list and we decided to post it here because we figured it'd be easier for both sites to work together to make it better. If someone who participates on both sites makes the topic it's a lot easier to make changes.

Rather than making it "your own", I like the original idea that we make it "ours".

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tangerine

[Dat Nick]

Should i take it that there's no problem if I list Athos and move Canas up somewhere in Upper Mid (Lucius with him?)

[Tangerine]

Don't move anyone up until someone actually argues him convincingly over another unit. Canas is not better than Erk, but that doesn't mean he goes right below Erk either.

[Interceptor]

Except I can hold my own just fine against CATS and even win. I don't get raped by the best one and probably would have beaten him if a certain debate ever finished.

Don't misunderstand me, Satoshi-san, the analogy was not crafted to be a perfect one. Reikken is no prodigy, CATS is no samurai heir-apparent, and I don't even know who Solid is. Meaning them no disrespect, I have other debaters that I hold in higher regard.

Of you, based on my recent experience, I can say that efficiency and tiering threads improve from your presence, though it's because you'll say something so outrageously wrong or illogical that someone has to correct you, and thus it becomes a teachable moment for the community.

I also have plenty of proof of my knowledge and ability outside of random topics a competitive gamer like me views as "friendlies" or "casuals" and not "tournament."

This is like when people say I'm not good at Brawl despite the mountain of evidence stating otherwise.

Yes yes, I'm sure you're proud of your e-medals and such, but before you break out your stamp collection or show me a glittery macaroni necklace that you made, let me just say that I'm not really interested in them.

This man's game is Fire Emblem, which is satisfyingly cerebral.

[Colonel M]

Anything uncountered I will assume to be conceded.

Yo is it okay to concede to a troll because his logic makes no sense?

[Rewjeo]

Of course. As long as everyone's happy and, as much as possible, everyone understands what right and what's wrong, I see nothing wrong with it.

[CATS]

When you try to cause his logic to not make sense by simply stating that it doesn't make sense, as opposed to actually arguing him and explaining why it doesn't make sense, then I'd say not.

[Narga_Rocks]

Perhaps you didn't say it directly, but I fail to see how you didn't imply it. Put the last 3 words of the quote aside and consider the first 12. How were you not implying that something along those lines was indeed the case?

Okay. I can go with "You're so stupid that I don't even have to bother countering you", only in that nothing is accomplished by making the counter and thus there is no point.

This is a minor technicality and completely aside from my point. Take off the words "in order to make you wrong," they're irrelevant. The point is the exact same with or without them.

The point is extremely different if those last 6 words are there. With the last 6 words, it means two additional things:

1: It is possible to make person B wrong or not make person B wrong just by the strength of the argument done by person A.

2: The reason that person A isn't countering is because it is a tactic to disprove person B's claim, rather than recognizing that nothing is accomplished by making the counter.

I'm saying that they have decided that he will never get it so there is no point in trying to convince him he's wrong. It isn't about proving to others that he is wrong. You can clearly see that most of the debaters here that care about what each other think all believe him to be wrong, so proving him to be wrong is pointless. It's basically preaching to the choir. They can say whatever they want and the others will say "Amen". Just look at Cynthia's post about what Colonel M has said, despite the fact that Crimson_Edge has already responded to that point about Colonel M.

This isn't a minor technicality, and even if it is aside from your point, it is not aside from mine. Considering this is, in part, what I was going for in the first place I certainly don't think it is aside from the point. Call it clarifying the point. Again, Cynthia effectively posted "What Colonel M said" after C_E already countered Colonel M's points. What is the possible point of making a counter to the counter?

a: Convince the opponent they are wrong (as if this happens often on the internet)

b: Convince others that the opponent is wrong.

If everyone who's opinions you care about are already convinced that the opponent is wrong, what's the point? And if a person (right or wrong) is convinced that A will never happen and that b has already happened, there isn't really much point, is there?

Also, wtf? "Most of the debaters here that care about what each other think all believe him to be wrong," therefore you guys don't even have to bother countering him?

yep. If this had all been back when C_E first posted his ridiculous (according to many) tier list and nobody ever tried anything, I could maybe see where you are coming from. There have been at least half a dozen posts against him. He's "countered" most of them, of course, but clearly the people reading are of the opinion that he's lost even after this. There isn't really much point in going over it and over it. Also, this C_E hasn't delved into the archives in order to counter all the points that created the current tier list. Shall we assume he's conceding it all? Well then, why is his tier list so different? Why does he get to ignore years of work? Why are we the only ones that must counter him?

Again, you might as well just declare the tier list a democracy, with certain people (apparently "the debaters that care what each other think") having a more significant voice than others. This is a terrible mentality for open-ended discussion.

But it really already is a benign dictatorship. The person running the list gets to put in what they think, and if you can convince that person to make the change, or if they see that enough people believe in the change, they change it. It has worked for creating open discussion so far. There will always be one or two people that will never get on board. You can either spend hours arguing with them or you can just move on. You've indicated that if this had already been going on for hundreds of posts (my words, of course, not yours. Just my interpretation) that you'd be okay with starting to ignore someone. I just happen to think we've already reached that point without the hundreds of posts. These things are similar to a democracy in that people generate an idea of what kind of strategies are optimal and what kind of goals the tier list has. Even stipulating ranks doesn't remove the human factor. You can't ever come to a consensus on this, so instead you just go with the majority. Once that framework is set up, arguments can be made in that framework to (hopefully) objectively reach a conclusion on where characters go. It's a partial democracy in that respect, since the first step is inherently democratic, even if the second step isn't. If a person's posts indicate they are going against the grain and they show no indication of bending, why not ignore their conclusions? They are, after all, based on an archaic reasoning (as far as this list is concerned).

This is why I tend to think that a tier list's "rules" or whatever you want to call them should be clearly understood, if not written explicitly.

You're assuming that he's wrong without even giving an adequate response to his claims.

Me personally am assuming he is wrong because people I actually trust say he is wrong. Since I've never played the game I can't analyze his claims adequately and certainly can't actually counter them (at least not well). I admit that this decision of mine is questionable, but personally I'm okay with that. As for the rest of the people, some have. Others have stated why they aren't.

I don't see how that doesn't imply that you consider him to be inferior, stupid or incompetent in some way.

Hey, I already said that my earlier post was derogatory.

And how can you possibly know that he will "never learn?" You haven't even tried to actually engage him in discussion.

Don't know the game, so of course I haven't tried to engage him in discussion. But looking at the tone of his posts? I'd be surprised if he's willing to budge much on this.

I agree that if you've seriously tried to debate them and put some effort into it and it's just not going anywhere, then you might have grounds to make such claims as "oh they'll never learn let's just ignore them." That's why I pointed out that that isn't even close to being the case here. C_E was ignored almost immediately with most people not even trying to dispute anything he said.

From the looks of it most people looked at his list and saw things they found utterly ridiculous and probably came to the logical conclusion that anyone capable of coming up with that thing would not learn. Either that or decided that there were so many things wrong with it that it would be too much effort to hand hold him through what is wrong.

I'm not even bothering to reply because his list is just too wrong and I'm too lazy. He should take it to GameFAQs if he wants serious critique, not post his list in a topic that already has one to discuss and expect it to be used. His list looks like an extremely outdated version of ours and I'd rather not move backwards by debating it. GameFAQs does not have those rules that would end in his topic being locked, so discussion of his list belongs there in its own topic. Not to mention GameFAQs' ranked tier list community is much larger than Serenes', so it's win-win.

Wow I haven't seen a tier list war this ugly since smash was in the RD list.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to counter Crimson_Edge, since Colonel M already stated all that needed to be said. [..]

Not to mention that while Lyn being bottom unit is silly, his list also contains so many massive errors that we could spend weeks deconstructing it.

Or just ^that.

No, they may not be openly conceded. But I wouldn't blame C_E for assuming that they should be.

He can assume whatever he wants, doesn't make it true. If I say that the sun is made of chili poweder and nobody counters because what I said was utterly retarded, should I assume they concede my point?

Do note that "anything uncountered I consider conceded" was directed at Colonel_M, who was selectively attacking my argument without actually debating against the central logic of it (for example, singling out the near-parenthetical non-LHM comparison between Bartre and Lyn while ignoring the entirety of the Bartre vs. Lyn analysis). If someone is going to engage in debate with me over a claim, and debate only certain points I make about that claim, of course I am going to assume that the rest is conceded.

I don't have as big a problem if he applies the quoted statement only if there is a response that covers many of his points but not all of his points. I still question his final decision, of course, but I admit that I would generally prefer when people counter my posts that they either counter all of my post or at least indicate which uncountered portions they think are utterly ridiculous (and thus beyond an answer) and which portions of my post they are conceding. Even if that isn't done, however, it does not warrant assuming that the uncountered portion is conceded.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

Just remember CATS that I will take your arguments, as well as everyone else's, seriously to an extent. When you're saying KARLA contributes to the EXP rank more than LYN, something is WRONG.

[Narga_Rocks]

Might as well post this here from gamefaqs:

I'm personally for Athos ~ Hawkeye but that's as high as I can see him. Aside from Nergal and the dragon, he's not much help because of that 2.8k needed Exp in Light Part 1.

Hawkeye is a good place for Athos to start in terms of argument. Hawkeye has really good bases for a prepromote, considering that he has 0 HHM bonuses. Also, Hawkeye has a good portion of the game that he helps in, such as Genesis and late game chapters like Cog of Destiny where he's great for setting up kills for Exp units with a Steel or Silver Axe. He has enough Str to hurt enemies and great Con while not doubling or getting doubled from his base 11 Spd.

So... yeah. Also, most of us say that Canas' Spd issues are enough to keep him lower ranked, not to mention his squishy wizard status thanks to 7 Con (loses AS on every Dark tome) and meh durability (he's no Lucius but more like Lyn with less HP and more Def).

Canas can't even touch Lucius. Lucius has better speed, mag, res,skill,wep type, supports and when promoted starts with C in staves> Hp, def and luck.

Plus, Lucius has a fairly likely (and useful) Raven support, while Canas has... no feasible supports, really. Canas's concrete durability is barely better than Lucy's, but they're both terrible, so Lucius's pretty big avoid lead puts him ahead. Canas just gets stomped on when it comes to offense, with the exception on Luna'ing some lategame bosses, assuming you used him in the first place. I'm sure I (or someone else) could go into more detail if necessary.

Not exactly in depth arguments, but meh.

[Inui]

Marcus > Oswin.

The earlygame is a massacre. Oswin can't even say "BUT EXPERIENCE RANK!" over Marcus like everyone else can. Well, he can, but to lower degree. Oswin starts off at 9/0 to Marcus's 20/1, but Hector is 4/0, Eliwood is 1/0, Lowen is 2/0, etc. Oswin isn't exactly good for the Experience rank either. Anyways, Experience is literally all Oswin has over Marcus in the earlygame. In terms of combat and everything else, Marcus slaughters him.

Marcus: 20/1 Paladin

HP: 31

Str: 15

Skl: 15

Spd: 11

Lck: 8

Def: 10

Res: 8

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

Oswin: 9/0 Knight

HP: 28

Str: 13

Skl: 9

Spd: 5

Lck: 3

Def: 13

Res: 3

Mov: 4

Lances

Simply looking at their stats tells a sad tale for our poor Oswin. Marcus has double his mobility, significantly more offensive power, isn't locked to WTDA a lot, and is even more durable.

Oswin must be 14/0 to match Marcus's Str, but he'll still be down in Atk due Marcus having axes and more WT control. Marcus always rapes him in Skl/Hit in general. Oswin will not have Marcus's base Spd until he promotes and he never becomes faster during the game. Despite Oswin's Def, Marcus is more durable during the earlygame due to WT control and Evd. It's also worth noting that Marcus can ignore magic users for quite some time, even in the Dragons Gate.

Marcus is so much better than Oswin at Tactics, the hardest rank, it's not even funny. Marcus shaves turns off chapters in the earlygame that other units can't. Those turns could be translated into a few turns of arena and support abuse later or make up for mistakes and unlucky instances. Oswin, however, has half of Marcus's mobility for the whole game, meaning he's always progressing much more slowly all the time. For instance, Chapter 13 has a 12 turn requirement to maintain a perfect score in Tactics, but Marcus can shave off 2-3 turns easily while other units can't. Oswin has 4 Mov and can barely even reach the boss before 12 turns are up. Marcus is the only character that can safely reach the village in 13x or safely reach and defeat Puzon for his big boss EXP gain. Chapter 14 has a 10 turn requirement. The rain destroys everyone's mobility, but Marcus can charge out early to get to Priscilla's village and clear out a bunch of enemies, shaving off turns. Chapter 16 has to be finished in 7 turns, and Oswin can't even halfway reach the boss in that amount of turns due to the forests and enemies slowing him down. Marcus can charge through it all. Chapter 17 isn't even fair; Oswin can clear out some enemies in the start and then has to stand back forever since Marcus and everyone else without failure Mov is busy getting Raven and Priscilla, stopping the thieves, and charging through the chapter in order to meet the 18 turn requirement. Chapter 17x has a 10 turn requirement. That's right, you have to clear out the strong enemies and Damian's group and reach Fargus in 10 turns. What other unit is capable of this? Marcus shaving off turns earlier on makes up for how gay that requirement is, or he can just rape the chapter to make it possible. Either way, Marcus is w1n and Oswin is not. In Chapter 18, Marcus can run from one side of the ship to the other in order to do whatever, and he just lol's at the Shamans, Pegs, and other shit he kills in one hit that can't do anything back to him. Marcus can help you finish that chapter well before the turn count ends, and since the turn requirement is 11, that's awesome. Chapter 19 is 10 turns, and Oswin isn't going anywhere due to those forests, so lol @ him again. Marcus gets to charge forward without a chance of dying and get the Torch staff from that thief. Chapter 19x has a 10 turn requirement and you need to kill Kishuna and Aion and seize before that if you want 19xx and to not fail in Tactics. Oswin's slow self can't even reach Kishuna, or even Aion in most cases, in 10 turns. Marcus rapes Kishuna compared to how badly everyone else does against him. 19xx is another massacre in Marcus's favor due to stopping the thieves and finishing that chapter ASAP since it's a 0 turn one. You want to blast through that bitch and get some awesome items and a free 100 EXP from killing a very high level Druid and get the fuck out because that chapter is the worst ever for Tactics. Chapter 20 has a 16 turn requirement, but you want to visit the secret shops, and Marcus makes that possible while other units can't. He's a downright detriment when we're trying to meet such crazy requirements. Oswin can't reach Eubans in 11 turns or even help a lot with that, but Marcus can, and he can just laugh at those magic users with his 10+ Res at the time and supports giving him Evd.

If Oswin promotes first, nice and early at say...The Pirate Ship, he's stopping Kent, Sain, and Lowen from being able to promote all the way until Chapter 22. After that, the next opportunity is Chapter 24. Marcus does no such thing. He comes promoted. He saves you 10,000 Gold right off the bat and doesn't hinder some other unit's promotion ever.

In terms of supports, Marcus can build some easy ones with Eliwood and Lowen that are awesome defensively. Oswin can slowly build one with Dorcas and Hector and that's about it. Maybe Matthew? His A with Lowen takes 75 turns and Oswin's fastest support gets a B in about that time. Going by the strict turn requirements, Oswin's supports aren't building too well, but Lowen keeps up with Marcus and it builds quickly.

How does Oswin ever make up for this insane rape? He better somehow do a lot later on...

Let's go to around when Pent joins or shortly before/after depending on various factors.

Marcus: 20/10 Paladin

HP: 36.85

Str: 17.7

Skl: 19.5

Spd: 13.25

Lck: 10.7

Def: 11.35

Res: 11.15

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Lowen/B Eliwood: +2 Atk, +20 Hit, +7 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

Oswin: 20/5 General

HP: 45.5

Str: 21.0

Skl: 15.5

Spd: 12.5

Lck: 8.25

Def: 23.25

Res: 10.5

Mov: 5

Lances, Axes

B Hector/B Dorcas: +3 Atk, +5 Hit, +10 Crit, +20 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +15 Crit Evd

Offense

Atk Spd: Marcus is right on the cusp of doubling iron lance Wyverns. They have 9-10 Spd. He gets the 9 Spd ones and barely misses the 10 Spd ones. Giving him a Speedwing, which allows him to maintain top tier offense for a long time and puts up at or nearly at the Spd needed to double almost everything in Victory or Death later, allows him to cleanly double everything in Unfulfilled Heart. Oswin with a Speedwing gets similar benefits, but he already ate a promotional item and and can't get to the enemies nearly as well as Marcus can. Both are ass in this area, but Marcus is slightly better.

Atk: Oswin has a 1.5 lead. This is actually more meaningless than Marcus's slight win in Atk Spd. Marcus has access to swords and has an A in axes at this point. Will Oswin have an A in axes? Not likely. A B at most, probably. Marcus can bust out a silver axe to cancel out the lead. Oswin's bonuses from Hector don't exist very much, especially in Chapter 26. Does Oswin's Atk lead make him do any better at all? Nope. Marcus already one-shots the random crappy Myrm with a Silver Lance and rapes anything else unpromoted that isn't a Wyvern. He has access to almost any weapon in the game. A 32 HP/11 Def Wyvern is dropped to 25 HP when Oswin hits it with a steel axe. He doesn't double even the 9 Spd ones. Marcus doubles the 9 Spd ones with a Killer Axe or Silver Lance and easily kills them. If it has 10 Spd and Marcus doesn't double, he does the same damage as Oswin due to being able to use a silver axe. Both need a critical, and Marcus has more of that since he gets his +7 from Lowen and has more Skl while Oswin only gets his +5 from Dorcas and has less Skl.

Hit: Massacre in Marcus's favor. Oswin has Marcus's 20/1 overall accuracy right now, lol. Oswin actually stands a chance of missing things, especially if he has WTDA. Marcus can have WTDA and not care if his supporters are there. Oswin has a very nice chance of missing if he faces WTDA. Oswin with an iron axe has ~75 Hit on Mercs/Myrms even with his supports. Marcus in the same situation maintains 100 Hit. With WTDA against a faster enemy when he's using the least accurate weapon type, Marcus has 100 Hit. Wow.

Defense: Both are invincible. Yes, even Marcus. Oswin's durability wins hardly matter. Marcus faces 20.8 Hit against an iron lance Wyvern with 9 Skl. Javelin ones have 5.8 (7.8 with hand axe). If it has 13 Str, it does a mere 4.65 Dmg to Marcus's 36.85 HP. It would take far more than the amount on any map to attack him in one turn for him to have a real chance of dying. Oswin's one and only point over Marcus is being invincible, but being able to take infinite enemies vs 100 doesn't matter when 100 never attack you at once. Marcus can somehow be so unlucky that 7 of those Wyverns hit him, and he's still alive. That's right, if Marcus gets hit 7 times by ~8% chances, he's still alive anyways. Oswin's invincibility means little if Marcus is surviving anyways. Thankfully, Marcus has more than one good thing, unlike Oswin. Against magic users, Marcus wins in both Evd and Res. ~1 Res + ~9 Evd > ~9 HP. And that's if Hector's 20/0 low mobility self is following Oswin around and Dorcas is in play, and Dorcas's use is questionable while Lowen and Eliwood are awesome and their use is not questionable at all.

So, Oswin is not even winning the midgame or the start of the lategame at all. Oswin would need to not only beat Marcus later, but beat him by a lot in order to make up for how soundly Marcus has been thrashing him everywhere but Experience.

Battle Before Dawn is Oswin's worst chapter ever possibly. Marcus and Lowen and a promoted Eliwood get to be BAMFs and charge forward to save Jaffar's garbage azz or recruit Nino and get her over to him safely. They can just ignore Ursula's Bolting and whatever else they're giving each other crazy Evd and Lowen's invincible anyways. Oswin gets to show up to peck off a few enemies at best or stay back and beat up crappy reinforcements that a base level Raven can probably kill.

What do they look like around Victory or Death, Oswin's best chance to show he's better than Marcus? There are lots of promoted enemies roaming around compared to earlier on, enemy density shot up, Marcus's mobility lets him reach enemies easily, and Marcus's EXP gains stopped being horrible, so...

Marcus: 20/17 Paladin

HP: 41.4

Str: 19.8

Skl: 23.0

Spd: 15.0

Lck: 12.8

Def: 12.4

Res: 13.6

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Lowen/B Eliwood: +2 Atk, +20 Hit, +7 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

Oswin: 20/14 General

HP: 53.6

Str: 24.6

Skl: 18.2

Spd: 15.2

Lck: 11.4

Def: 28.2

Res: 13.2

Mov: 5

B Hector/A Dorcas: +4 Atk, +7 Hit, +12 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

ENEMY LV HP ST SK SP LC DE RE MV CN WEAPONS
LIMSTELLA 20 70 26 22 19 00 21 25 06 04 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
KNIGHT 16 32 13 08 03 00 15 04 04 13 STEEL LANCE
GENERAL 08 43 17 11 07 00 21 12 05 15 SILVER LANCE
SNIPER 08 39 16 15 12 00 10 09 06 08 SILVER BOW (+LONGBOW)
DRUID 08 32 23 12 13 00 08 17 06 08 FENRIR, NOSFERATU / NOSFERATU
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 KILLER LANCE / HORSESLAYER / AXEREAVER
WYVERN LORD 08 47 21 14 14 00 17 07 08 11 SILVER LANCE / STEEL LANCE
PALADIN 06 43 16 13 12 00 12 09 08 11 STEEL LANCE / LONGSWORD / SILVER LANCE
HERO 08 44 15 18 17 00 15 09 06 10 SILVER AXE (+ LIGHT BRAND) / SILVER SWORD, HAND AXE
HERO 20 52 18 21 19 00 17 11 06 10 SILVER AXE, LIGHT BRAND
SWORDMASTER 20 46 18 23 22 00 12 11 06 09 WO DAO
WARRIOR 08 51 21 14 13 00 10 06 06 13 SILVER AXE / DEVIL AXE, KILLER BOW
BRIGAND 16 35 15 07 09 00 06 03 05 12 STEEL AXE
SAGE 10 34 19 14 13 00 09 18 06 07 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
BISHOP 08 34 15 13 11 00 07 20 06 07 AURA, PURGE / AURA, FORTITY, BERSERK
PALADIN 08 44 16 13 13 00 12 10 08 11 SILVER SWORD
VALKYRIE 08 32 15 12 18 00 08 20 08 06 ELFIRE, PHYSIC
MAGE 16 27 12 10 10 00 05 09 05 06 ELFIRE
SAGE 06 32 17 13 13 00 09 16 06 07 ELFIRE, BOLTING
MONK 20 30 08 09 10 00 04 14 05 06 LIGHTNING
SHAMAN 16 26 12 08 08 00 05 10 05 07 NOSFERATU
NOMAD TROOP 06 37 16 15 17 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD
MAJOR REINFORCEMENTS:
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 STEEL LANCE
CAVALIER 16 34 12 10 11 00 09 03 07 09 STEEL LANCE
FALCOKNIGHT 10 38 16 17 17 00 09 14 08 06 STEEL LANCE
NOMAD TROOP 08 38 16 15 18 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD

Both take out the garbage (unpromoted enemies). Anyone can. So, Oswin's big Atk lead doesn't matter here. They have the same Atk Spd. Even with a Speedwing, they miss Wyvern Lords. Both are doubled by one enemy on the map that Marcus has no reason going near since he should move to the northwest or southeast over going through forests. Marcus and Oswin both fail to double Nomadic Troopers, Heroes, Wyvern Lords, and Silver Lance/Longsword Paladins. Oswin with all of his supports has a base Crit lead of ~3. And that's about all he can say in terms of offense since his Atk lead doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Doing 7 more Dmg to a Wyvern Lord won't make it any easier for someone else to march up to it and kill it since you should be using a bow or magic user to wreck these things. Anyways, Oswin has wins on enemies they both can't double.

Marcus is no longer as durable as he used to be and Oswin is invincible. Or is that really the case for Marcus? Well, the silver lance Wyvern Lord and steel lance Falco Knights have the same Hit as the iron lance one previously, which was very little, and it's 0-1 if Marcus is in a forest. Steel Lance/Javelin Wyverns? Not a threat at all. They lolmiss all day long. So do the Shamans and Cavaliers. A Valkyrie has ~41 Hit and does ~8 Dmg. Not very scary at all. Basically, Marcus stands no significant chance of dying.

Earlygame: Marcus wrecks him.

Midgame: Marcus wrecks him.

Lategame: Oswin ties him and then wins towards the very end.

And that pretty much only talks about combat performance and Tactics. Marcus's other benefits, like not needing a promotional item, not screwing over another unit, shaving turns off early on, performing tasks he's best suited for above all others, etc. easily put him ahead. In fact, Marcus shaving off like 10 turns through the earlygame lets you use the arena 10 times in Chapter 24 to make up for any Experience rank rape while making your army stronger. Giving Geitz like 4-5 free levels is awesome.

I see a tier gap between Marcus and Oswin in Marcus's favor.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

I got b7 for lame reasons on gfaqs so I can't respond to them directly. I will type a general "Canas not a tier below Lucius, even if he's not overall better" argument later. Someone should tell the gfaqs people to come here though. It would be nice to have all the ranked discussion people in one place and gfaqs small character limit on posts, inability to edit posts, etc is lame (the fact that I can't post on gfaqs totally has nothing to do with it >_>).

Also will respond to other stuff later. I just wanted to say that for now.

EDIT: oh shit big ass post ninjas me, was responding to Narga obviously

also inui, divide up that massive ass wall of text into smaller paragraphs, plz. That's just painful to look at.

Edited February 11, 2010 by CATS

[Narga_Rocks]

I got b7 for lame reasons on gfaqs so I can't respond to them directly. I will type a general "Canas not a tier below Lucius, even if he's not overall better" argument later. Someone should tell the gfaqs people to come here though. It would be nice to have all the ranked discussion people in one place and gfaqs small character limit on posts, inability to edit posts, etc is lame (the fact that I can't post on gfaqs totally has nothing to do with it >_>).

Also will respond to other stuff later. I just wanted to say that for now.

EDIT: oh shit big ass post ninjas me, was responding to Narga obviously

also inui, divide up that massive ass wall of text into smaller paragraphs, plz. That's just painful to look at.

Guess I'll go to Gamefaqs and post the link to here.

*posts on gamefaqs*

done

[Hash Jar]

I'm no debater, but Oswin does have an EXP advantage even if they both gained the exact same amount of EXP per hit/kill (which isn't the case) because Oswin has 15-20 more levels to gain over Marcus. Yes? Although I do agree with you on pretty much everything else.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Rafael

[Dat Nick]

also inui, divide up that massive ass wall of text into smaller paragraphs, plz.

No need, I'd be willing to concede to it right away without even reading the argument. Then again, I'm used to fapping over Marcus.

[Life]

Figured I'd dispute our man CE's point in here. The other topic did get locked.

Lowen deserves a position at least a tier or two above the other two Cavaliers because of his enormous durability over both of them. In fact, by lategame, Lowen has the best overall durability in the game for a combat unit with the possible exception of Rebecca. Meanwhile, the only substantial win that either Kent or Sain have over Lowen is raw, statistical offense, which is the least important attribute in this game. Enemies come to you in massive underlevelled hordes as you proceed through the game; having higher levels of offense means almost nothing at all the vast majority of the time, whereas having higher levels of defense essentially benefits both Tactics and Survival (less healing is required, and units such as Lowen have more flexibility of movement). Quite literally, Lowen having higher durability means that your entire team has higher durability, for he can soak up attacks that would have been directed at other units. Kent and Sain having higher offense does not always mean that your entire team has higher offense--on a given turn where there are 11 units that want to attack and only 9 enemy units, for example, it does not matter whether Kent or Sain can kill a particular enemy faster as long as the enemies do get killed. There is no net gain, therefore, in their higher offense. In fact, if anything, higher offense means taking more attacks on Enemy Phase due to killing more, and thus their defense is lower; Lowen's higher defense does nothing to impact his offense, so the gap is even bigger than it appeared before.

Furthermore, Lowen does not require a Cavalier support, so using Lowen does not mean using Kent or Sain or Oswin. Thus, Lowen's promotion issues with the Knight Crest are slightly less than Kent's or Sain's promotion issues (both of them prefer to have the other in play, adding a second Knight-Crest-using unit to your team).

As for the division between Kent and Sain, not only does Kent have higher durability than Sain does, but Kent also has more Hit for using the Javelin, which makes his Enemy Phase offense better than Sain's for a considerable portion of the game(their offensive capabilities being generally matched otherwise).

You're doing it wrong.

Because Lowen has PHAIL offense, he can't do as much damage as Sain or Kent can. The point of doing higher damage isn't to kill all the time, but rather to set up Exp kills. Lowen might doing 1/2 damage while Sain/Kent do anywhere from 3/4 to 2/3 damage in any single round. It seems like you're not taking the Exp rank in consideration at all as most of your main offense units are actually there to set up the Exp kills.

As for the support and promotion, you're also missing the point. A HHM S Rank run requires the rotation of units in order to satisfy the Exp rank as that is considered the hardest rank to 5* when compared to Tactics. Just because you can 5* it on ENM without rotating units (I did that on a quick runthrough because I lost my save data) doesn't mean that it happens for EHM. Same idea for HNM vs. HHM. Lowen, Kent, Sain and Oswin will all be played. All of them even though they're going for the same promotion items. In fact, it's better to promote two of the 4 (Kent and Sain) in order to help Tactics (2 8 move units) and Exp (won't leave enemies with about half their health, more like 1/4) at the same time.

I'll agree with you that Kent should be higher than Sain but you haven't listed the proper reason why. Kent's Spd >> Sain's Spd while Kent's Con = Sain's Con. Therefore, Kent will be doubling enemies much sooner than Sain, allowing him to generate a proper offense more quickly. Kent also (arguably) has the better affinity for when it comes to making supports.

I think you're overrating defense a little much.

Hector is at the top of this list for a simple reason: he consumes no unit slot. This means that using Hector does not mean not using someone else--he's consuming fewer resources. In order to use Hector, you do not need to sac Erk, Sain, Lowen, Kent, or any of the other extremely good units that you need to sac in order to us someone such as, say, Oswin. Oswin must replace someone—Hector, on the other hand, needs to replace no one.

Put a different way, if a chapter has 11 unit slots available, the team that’s using Hector gets to use 11 units. The team that’s using Oswin and is not using Hector gets to use 10 units. Hector is contributing a full additional unit of attacking force to your team--no one else in the entire game can claim this advantage. The difference between not using Hector and using Hector is massive, a full unit of difference; the difference between not using Oswin and using Oswin is not massive—it may only be the difference between using Oswin and, say, Erk instead, which is not a noticeable difference at all.

No. This is actually the wrong thinking when it comes to an S Rank run.

Hector hits 20/0 long before he promotes. At this point, he really just becomes a hindrance until promotion because he is forced onto the field but cannot fight because of the Exp rank. As a result of not being able to fight, he also hurts the Tactics rank because he's a waste of a slot that potentially could have gone to another unit.

Imagine that you could choose to field another unit once Hector hit 20/0. Would you or would you rather keep him on the field? I understand that Hector is a free slot but the point is, I'm handicapped once he hits 20/0. I've got 10 fighting units and 1 useless one. I'd much rather have 11 fighting units and 0 useless ones.

Matthew getting you the Silver Card needs to occur for only a single chapter. It's a solitary action after which there is no follow-up action required on his part for the remainder of the game; any member of your team can use the Silver Card once Matthew retrieves it. Matthew must only select "Steal" while standing next to Aion in order to get the Silver Card. After this, his contribution toward getting it is finished. It's no better than giving Priscilla credit for every action taken by Raven, since she recruits Raven. Priscilla must only go up to Raven and select "Talk" in order for your team to get Raven; to give Priscilla credit for everything she does beyond this simple action in this one chapter would be translating Priscilla's worth into "Priscilla + Raven," which is obviously ridiculous.

Moreover, Matthew is stuck at level 20 for a long time and so must avoid combat altogether. On any chapter that he's fielded, even beyond having to be off stealing the majority of the chapter, he can't rejoin your other units in combat both because he gains no EXP from fighting anything and so hurts EXP Rank and because his durability is horrible and so he must avoid getting attacked or risk injuring Tactics or Survival. He's also Sword-locked and so lacks 1-2 Range, further cutting into both his offense and defense. Because of all this, he also has difficulty building and maintaining supports (meaning he can't provide benefits to such units as Guy). Indeed he gets credit for his positive actions, but are we not also to strike him down for his negative ones? Bad durability doesn't just restrict the individual unit; it restricts the entire team's mobility, including the unit's support partner. And in Matthew's case, it's not just durability, it's also bad offense and negative EXP Rank.

Wait, you lost me. Didn't I just make the exact same argument for Hector for what I've bolded? Because I smell a bad double standard.

Matthew might not be the best for Tactics and Exp but he is the reason why you pass the Funds ranking. Not only that but he is vital for beating the game because it is impossible to beat Another Journey without him. If Hector is at the top of the S Rank list because he doesn't cost a unit slot, then Matthew deserves at least the spot beneath Hector because it is impossible to beat Chapter 11 without him (none of the guards drop Door Keys IIRC but I'm only Normal right now because of my lost data). And that's without even bringing up the merits of his thieving utility for the first half of the game.

Serra and Priscilla have amazingly bad prepromotion durability; increasing the team's overall durability through healing is indeed a boon; that is why the other magicians are so high on the tier list. However, there's no reason that this should override completely their individual durability (which restricts their movement) for over half the game. Both Serra and Priscilla can get OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed before they promote, and this also means that they have difficulty healing units who are on the frontlines (who are also, you may note, the ones which are most likely to take damage). Compare them to a unit such as Canas, who can promote right after getting the first Guiding Ring and then heal while also being able to frontline most of the time, and you'll see that the difference is indeed quite great.

I thought so before but now I'm absolutely positive that you don't give two shits about the Exp Ranking. Serra and Prissy are vital for the S Rank because they draw on an unlimited pool of Exp every single turn. Look at your list for proof. Ninils is second on it because she can be an extra unit but she also supplies a free 10 Exp per turn. Serra and Prissy provide necessary healing for your units but also do not have their staff exp cut in half, unlike promoted magic users.

If you play a defensive S Rank run (which you obviously do based on your reasoning for Lowen > Sain & Kent by a mile), then you should realize that Serra or Prissy are worth 2x Canas, 2x Pent, 2x Erk or 2x Lucius because they primarily heal (allowing Canas/Pent/Erk/Lucius to attack and gain even more Exp) and gain double the Exp that any one of the guys that I mentioned because they are unpromoted. Staff users have their staff Exp cut in half if they promote.

Please consider the Exp ranking next time. As for the list at hand, Lucius > Canas for a multitude of reasons that Narga posted above from me, Under and Mikey. And I'll try staying here, CATS, but I've got midterms on Friday so my debating skills won't be great, I'm just warning you.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Tangerine]

Marcus killing anything more than a couple enemies early game is a bad idea. There are a couple chapters where this is an exception because you need him to get somewhere fast, but for the most part you don't want him killing much at all. He one rounds most everything with the weakest weapons you have available, which means he can't even set kills up. Oswin will almost never die and he doesn't double, which sets kills up for your weak units and leads to much higher EXP gain and minimal damage (6exp from Marcus vs 36 exp from Oswin + another unit). Marcus is only as high as he is because he's a safety blanket; making too much use of him is a bad thing, so he isn't doing anything that you mentioned. You don't compare Marcus vs Oswin, you compare their relative contribution in a team setting. Sure, Marcus can kill a bunch of things, but that makes your team weaker and hurts the EXP rank.

It's not like you can get all of your EXP from the arena, EXP is the hardest rank in the game and anyone who has actually S ranked will tell you that. No other rank effects how you play more than EXP does. This isn't the efficiency tier list, Marcus isn't charging through anything. Marcus picks off problem enemies and saves your units if they need help. If anything Oswin needs to move down closer, not Marcus up.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tangerine

[Inui]

Unfortunately, I consulted the wrong chart with regards to the Tactics rank requirements, but the number differences are minor and Marcus's advantages still stand. Perhaps I'll correct those errors if I ever use that stuff in a formal debate.

Anyways, Marcus for God Tier.

He one rounds everything with the weakest weapons you have available, which means he can't even set kills up.

Have him rescue some scrub unit. Problem solved. He turns into Oswin with 8 Mov and swords.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[Tangerine]

Have him rescue some scrub unit. Problem solved. He turns into Oswin with 8 Mov and swords.

Wow, good idea. Now Marcus is taking up TWO unit slots to be usable.

[CATS]

So without Marcus in play, I get an extra unit on the field on top of whoever I replace Marcus with. I'm pretty sure "have him rescue someone" does not help his case.

EDIT: lulz ninja'd

Edited February 11, 2010 by CATS