FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[CATS]

Did you seriously copy and paste the argument you used before? I know I've read it before, but unfortunately I can't find it to see how I responded. Anyway...

Yep. Too lazy to re-type and I forgot what the original responses were.

Your shit with Nils is just that: Shit. There is no way Serra is getting 82-83 heals in, LHM just isn't that hard. Even if you intentionally hurt your units for her to heal, I doubt there are even enough enemies, and Nils doesn't even show until Ch 7. Then there are first turns, times where no one is in range for her to heal, etc.

If there's not enough enemies then just camp and let the boss take potshots at people before you kill him. No reason not to. There should be plenty of enemies though, particularly considering +1 Hp's from levelups in addition to actual injuries. If there's no one in range for her to heal, again, try to intentionally injure someone. If you're seriously in a situation where no units are taking any damage whatsoever, then it obviously won't put you in any danger to force one hit onto one of your units.

You can indeed have Serra heal on the first turn in multiple chapters. Erk even starts off injured at the beginning of Ch 5 iirc. "Nothing to heal first turn" is like minus 3-4 heals at the most. Insignificant.

Yes, Nils doesn't show until Ch 7. Fortunately Ch 7 onwards are the bigger maps with more enemies, and I'm only assuming Nils dances for Serra on half of the turns anyways. That seems lenient when there is no visible incentive to have him dance for anyone else.

Edited February 11, 2010 by CATS

[Life]

When you assume LHM is S Ranked then yes Serra is level 11-12, at least. There's no reason to go under the LHM Tactics rank requirements after Serra joins. Those requirements are 51 total turns from Serra's joining chap up through the end of LHM, plus whatever turns you saved in earlier chapters (I highly doubt that Ch 1-3 are taking 7 turns each), which I'll just say is 4 to make it a round 55 turns in LHM for Serra.

Likewise keep in mind that there is no reason not to give Serra Nils's full attention in LHM. Refreshing Serra so that she can get more heals in adds more to your total Exp, while refreshing attackers does not, and it's not at all necessary to have Nils refresh attackers in order to get 5 stars in LHM Tactics. I'll just multiply the # of turns by 1.5 to represent this; thus it comes out to 82-83 heals for Serra in LHM. Roughly 900 Exp, putting her on L10 at the end of LHM.

Then let's add 2-3 levels for the 3-4 chaps she has over Priscilla in HHM.

So Serra's level when Priscilla shows up can easily be around 12-13 under the conditions of this tier list.

I don't know what game you're playing but it's not S Rank LHM. I do this all the time to gain average stats for what levels everyone walks out of LHM with and Serra has never gotten higher than level 7. Serra can't eat her way through two full Heals.

Let's do the math together. We'll assume that you complete each chapter on the set number of turns for the Tactics ranking. We're also assuming no RNG abuse to make our guys get hit. It's proof that LHM is piss easy.

Chapter 5: Serra gets 44 Exp from 4 turns. No reason why she won't heal every turn since Erk starts out with damage.

Chapter 6: Serra will get maybe 4 healing turns, mostly because there are about 7 enemies on the map. I'll give her 5 to be nice. Still level 1.

Chapter 7: 6 turns for the map. Granted, Nils is here but for Serra to do proper healing, both she and Nils have to be at Heintz because the enemies are absolute pathetic. She'll get 6 heals because nobody's getting hurt anymore but I'll give her 8 to be nice. Level 2.

Chapter 7x: 8 heals max. Since it's not a big open map, it's a lot harder for her to get heals in. Nils can refresh her all he wants, she's not going to be able to heal some people because of the tight spaces and potential attacks from archers. Level 3.

Chapter 8: 8 heals thanks to the ~5 enemies that rush you while half your units are in forests and the inaccurate ballista. Yogi is an absolute joke of a boss. Level 4.

Chapter 9: Around 9 heals. Serra's probably going to be with the group that pushes towards Eagler while the northern group (for me it's Flo, Erk, Matt and Sain/Kent) uses vulneraries because Serra's on the other side of the map. Level 5.

Chapter 10: Nils is actually concentrating on refreshing Sain, Kent, Flo and Rath in order to get units like Serra, Erk, Lucius, Dorcas and Lyn down to Lundgren as fast as possible. I'll give her 13 heals for the whole chapter as there's a good 3 turns where you're stuck in rain and do 0 fighting.

That's 583 Exp or level 6.83. Serra will be level 6~7 coming out of LHM, not 10~11. There's a difference between potential healing turns and actual healing turns. Do a quick runthrough of LHM and you'll see. If you can S Rank LHM with a level 10+ Serra and show me a video, I will concede that I don't know how to S Rank this game properly.

[CATS]

And Bartre gets tons for kills. It's not like you never give Bartre kills, that makes no sense at all. By keeping Bartre rescued he never gets that 30 EXP. I already said Oswin needed to move down anyway.

Alright, if you're basing the argument entirely on Exp rank now, then that's a different issue. I had problems only with the idea that it's still more combat efficient to leave Bartre un-rescued and not have Marcus attack. I'll have to keep this Exp rank emphasis in mind when considering future points.

[Tangerine]

Alright, if you're basing the argument entirely on Exp rank now, then that's a different issue. I had problems only with the idea that it's still more combat efficient to leave Bartre un-rescued and not have Marcus attack. I'll have to keep this Exp rank emphasis in mind when considering future points.

It's entirely on EXP because that's what Marcus hurts no matter what he does. By just sitting around and looking tough he develops a large amount of positive utility by allowing you to keep pressure on the enemy and ensuring you don't get overwhelmed. Making him do things like take another unit's slot just to have him do something adds another factor; Marcus' utility minus the unit he just rescued's utility. So it's Marcus weakening things vs Bartre's EXP and slightly worse weakening. This is complicated even further by the fact that the unit he rescued should be getting credit for whatever he's doing as well.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tangerine

[CATS]

I don't know what game you're playing but it's not S Rank LHM. I do this all the time to gain average stats for what levels everyone walks out of LHM with and Serra has never gotten higher than level 7. Serra can't eat her way through two full Heals.

Let's do the math together. We'll assume that you complete each chapter on the set number of turns for the Tactics ranking. We're also assuming no RNG abuse to make our guys get hit. It's proof that LHM is piss easy.

Chapter 5: Serra gets 44 Exp from 4 turns. No reason why she won't heal every turn since Erk starts out with damage.

Chapter 6: Serra will get maybe 4 healing turns, mostly because there are about 7 enemies on the map. I'll give her 5 to be nice. Still level 1.

Chapter 7: 6 turns for the map. Granted, Nils is here but for Serra to do proper healing, both she and Nils have to be at Heintz because the enemies are absolute pathetic. She'll get 6 heals because nobody's getting hurt anymore but I'll give her 8 to be nice. Level 2.

Chapter 7x: 8 heals max. Since it's not a big open map, it's a lot harder for her to get heals in. Nils can refresh her all he wants, she's not going to be able to heal some people because of the tight spaces and potential attacks from archers. Level 3.

Chapter 8: 8 heals thanks to the ~5 enemies that rush you while half your units are in forests and the inaccurate ballista. Yogi is an absolute joke of a boss. Level 4.

Chapter 9: Around 9 heals. Serra's probably going to be with the group that pushes towards Eagler while the northern group (for me it's Flo, Erk, Matt and Sain/Kent) uses vulneraries because Serra's on the other side of the map. Level 5.

Chapter 10: Nils is actually concentrating on refreshing Sain, Kent, Flo and Rath in order to get units like Serra, Erk, Lucius, Dorcas and Lyn down to Lundgren as fast as possible. I'll give her 13 heals for the whole chapter as there's a good 3 turns where you're stuck in rain and do 0 fighting.

That's 583 Exp or level 6.83. Serra will be level 6~7 coming out of LHM, not 10~11. There's a difference between potential healing turns and actual healing turns. Do a quick runthrough of LHM and you'll see. If you can S Rank LHM with a level 10+ Serra and show me a video, I will concede that I don't know how to S Rank this game properly.

What are your turncounts? You seem to imply the turncounts necessary for S Rank (52 heals) but without the tactics I mentioned to maximize Serra's Exp gains. Why is Nils concentrating on attackers in Ch 10 when that chapter's requirement is 12 turns and you can easily save turns in earlier chapters and spend them here if necessary? Your description of Ch 8 ("half your units are in forests and the inaccurate ballista") seems to imply that no one's getting hurt and there's nothing for Serra to heal. etc.

Not to mention that your entire argument is based on personal experience.

L10+? L10 is what I pegged as her level when you optimize her Exp gains and thus 12-13 as a possible range for when Priscilla joins. Notice that the original range questioned was 11-12. She can come out of LHM around L8 or 9 (only slightly higher than your results) and easily get to that by the time Priscilla joins.

[Balcerzak]

Or someone else can go to the village, since that's actually significantly safer to do since Puzon and mercs/myrms/nomads aren't there and sword users can just get there easily. Eliwood + Hector with their C support can do this without much problem.

Getting to and killing Puzon is much harder and more dangerous. Even if the enemies don't double Guy, they have tons of Hit and Guy's 26 HP/6 Def isn't tanky enough to deal with that. If a nomad has 8 Str, he eats 6 dmg and has a low chance of dodging. 5 Mag mage hits him for like 9 dmg. Mercs/myrms do about as much as the nomad. Then Puzon actually is kinda dangerous for your team at this point besides Marcus. I don't think Guy can get through that since they are in high numbers. Marcus, however, can. And Guy can easily get to the village without worrying. Switch their roles.

Oswin has 4 Mov and there are forests and enemies in his way. Him getting to and killing Puzon before 7 turns is up = lol.

I must admit to never having tried to go to the village with anyone else. The numerous prowling bandits and the FoW make me far to nervous to want to concern myself for its safety, though it may be plausible to do as you suggest. Also, I can't remember entirely, but I'm pretty sure Puzon moves first, then one of the swordsmen, so if you plug the chokehole all Guy's taking is Puzon's hit. Marcus probably is a safer option, but I don't feel he has a full monopoly on Puzon. Oswin's move is pretty tough, but he'll usually make it to the far edge of the bridge by the final turn, though depending on how the RNG sets up your starting formation he may have an easier time getting there. I honestly don't know or care anymore, I'm not really a fan of Knights in general, though they have their uses.

Kishuna is on a fort.

GGs.

The two most likely spawn scenarios I can think of.

It's really quite simple. You allow the thief to steal one item and kill him for it and then get the other item with Matthew by carrying him there with some mounted unit. You get to bring a lot of units to this chapter and you have lots of horsies. He can have a C with Lowen instead, and a C with Eliwood is quite easy. Marcus isn't always blasting ahead of everyone and Lowen keeps up with him. Both of his supports start early and build quickly, and are thus viable.

Carrying Matthew is pointless unless the one carrying him is Marcus himself, as 7 move is barely better than his natural 6, and won't make up the difference needed to reach from bottom to top in a timely fashion at all. Furthermore that's diverting valuable combat resources away from cleaning the dangerous middle passage and completing the chapter most efficiently. I guess maybe the Matthew carry would work, because you'd be moving through so much slower, but then you'll not make it in time to kill the thief. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I can buy a C with Lowen, but the C with Eliwood still seems shady to me. They have to be together nearly a third of the time, and the aforementioned difference in roles, durability, and move seems hard to swallow.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Life]

What are your turncounts? You seem to imply the turncounts necessary for S Rank (52 heals) but without the tactics I mentioned to maximize Serra's Exp gains. Why is Nils concentrating on attackers in Ch 10 when that chapter's requirement is 12 turns and you can easily save turns in earlier chapters and spend them here if necessary? Your description of Ch 8 ("half your units are in forests and the inaccurate ballista") seems to imply that no one's getting hurt and there's nothing for Serra to heal. etc.

Not to mention that your entire argument is based on personal experience.

L10+? L10 is what I pegged as her level when you optimize her Exp gains and thus 12-13 as a possible range for when Priscilla joins. Notice that the original range questioned was 11-12. She can come out of LHM around L8 or 9 (only slightly higher than your results) and easily get to that by the time Priscilla joins.

If doing 30+ LHM runs to gain a lot of different numbers is personal experience, then yes, my argument is based on personal experience. But this isn't the "OMG Serra iz teh best, she get purfect level ups every time!!!1!1!" type. This is the "this is what happens in a Lyn Hard Mode S Ranking run for a good 80% of anyone who plays the game" post.

Look, if you can prove to me, not number-wise but gameplay-wise (like a video or something) that it is possible to S Rank LHM with a level 9 Serra, then I'll concede your point. Otherwise, I call bullshit on your claim and claim that the highest level she will be after LHM is done is level 7.5.

The level 10+ stuff was me misreading your post, sorry. But when you say that level 9 is "only slightly higher than my results", you're talking about ~15 extra heals for that won't be happening.

Oh yeah, for Chapter 10. Dorcas, Erk and Lucius are your best damagers against Lundgren (Hammer time) unless you promoted Wallace (I never do, I use the Angelic Robe on Lyn/Florina depending on which gets more Def or HP screwed or the Energy Ring on Matt if he gains 0 Str). Lyn needs to seize and Serra needs to heal. Considering all the forests and enemies in the way, not to mention the rain that falls during 1/4 of the chapter, there's going to be a LOT of rescuing to make that 12 turn time limit because Erk, Lucius and Dorcas should be attacking starting turn 11. I also mentioned that we were assuming that each level got finished in the number of turns allowed.

The real problem is Chapter 5 as I almost got screwed on 3/5 last tries to beat it in 4 tries. It's entirely plausible to finish it in 5 turns and not 4 based on whether Erk can hit the Merc on the mountain or not. Chapter 2 is the only real place where you can save turns and if you're trying to level up Sain and Kent, you'll save 1 turn.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Tangerine]

Serra usually comes out around level 8 for me, but I go out of my way to get her there sometimes by setting up my units to get damaged. I don't think overly abusing that is a good idea, but level 8 seems reasonable either way.

[Inui]

I must admit to never having tried to go to the village with anyone else. The numerous prowling bandits and the FoW make me far to nervous to want to concern myself for its safety, though it may be plausible to do as you suggest. Also, I can't remember entirely, but I'm pretty sure Puzon moves first, then one of the swordsmen, so if you plug the chokehole all Guy's taking is Puzon's hit. Marcus probably is a safer option, but I don't feel he has a full monopoly on Puzon. Oswin's move is pretty tough, but he'll usually make it to the far edge of the bridge by the final turn, though depending on how the RNG sets up your starting formation he may have an easier time getting there. I honestly don't know or care anymore, I'm not really a fan of Knights in general, though they have their uses.

Guy has high Evd plus swords, so he doesn't care about axe d00ds, especially when there are plenty of forests. He does care about bows, swords, magic, and a boss, though.

If Puzon hits guy and then a mage or nomad pokes him, he's in serious trouble. Marcus isn't, and he gets to Puzon without caring. I guess Marcus can have an 80% monopoly on Puzon and Oswin and Guy can share the other 20% or something.

<insert huge images>

The two most likely spawn scenarios I can think of.

Oh what the dick I coulda swore he was on some sort of terrain and not just nothing... Oh well. Oswin still has less than 50 Hit, which is ayuss.

Carrying Matthew is pointless unless the one carrying him is Marcus himself, as 7 move is barely better than his natural 6, and won't make up the difference needed to reach from bottom to top in a timely fashion at all. Furthermore that's diverting valuable combat resources away from cleaning the dangerous middle passage and completing the chapter most efficiently. I guess maybe the Matthew carry would work, because you'd be moving through so much slower, but then you'll not make it in time to kill the thief. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Rush with Marcus/Kent/Sain/Lowen/Priscilla to Raven and the thief. Kill the thief after he steals the silver sword. Keep Florina in the back with Matthew and have her get EXP from killing the initial stuff. After Matthew steals from the second chest, pick him up and start airlifting him to the other chest. Having Florina pick him up after his action and then moving with her 1 Mov advantage saves Matthew two turns and letting the thief steal one item saves another. While you're doing that, keep moving Hector and everyone else to the throne and kill Bernard. By the time you're done with that, you can seize the throne and have Matthew pilfer the last chest at around the same time. Oswin can hang back and laugh at the nomad and cavalier reinforcements.

I believe the requirement is 15 turns or something, which is very manageable and even downright easy. Florina not getting a kill or two since she's doing this means very little. She can't advantage forward much due to nomads and archers everywhere, anyways. Getting a valuable and strong weapon this early is nice.

[dondon151]

I actually addressed that point of yours.

"Maybe if I had to grind Nils to level 10 or something, but come on."

Giving Nils 2 extra levels is no tedium at all (just don't zerg rush in the last two chapters and you should be more than halfway there), but the same can hardly be said for Lundgren abusing. Besides, if you're so against dilly-dallying, it's sort of ironic you're arena abusing instead of using Exp-padding units.

What's the difference between taking it slow and taking it really fast while waiting extra turns at the end? Padding EXP is just that, no matter how one does it - if I spend 10 extra turns getting extra EXP in the chapter, it doesn't matter whether I did it over the course of the map or if I did it all at once. If you want to grind Serra to 11/12, then there should be no reason why Erk can't be grinded to a similar level. If Erk's level ceiling from LHM maxes out at like 8 due to quick completion, then logically there is no reason why Serra gets more EXP.

Arena abusing is fine in ranked, because there is a turn count floor. If LHM is done under general efficiency guidelines, then it should be completed as quickly as possible, meaning that abusing anything for EXP is a no-go.

[HJ.]

Actually, I'm pretty sure not zerg-rushing would seem less tedious than spamming Serra at the end of chapter 10, which is what I was talking about. Also, way to ignore the tedium-part of the argument. I hope you're not seriously comparing raising Nils to level 7 with raising someone like Erk to level 20.

So you hold LHM and HHM to different standards? Is there a reason for this, other than it suits your arguments better?

[dondon151]

Actually, I'm pretty sure not zerg-rushing would seem less tedious than spamming Serra at the end of chapter 10, which is what I was talking about. Also, way to ignore the tedium-part of the argument. I hope you're not seriously comparing raising Nils to level 7 with raising someone like Erk to level 20.

20/0 Erk was an obvious exaggeration, but I could have said 12/0 Erk, which would have been more similar to 7/0 Nils.

So you hold LHM and HHM to different standards? Is there a reason for this, other than it suits your arguments better?

Of course there is. This is an HHM ranked tier list. Not an LHM ranked tier list. When we decided to include transfer units on the FE10 tier list, we assumed that FE9 was necessarily completed efficiently while still allowing for the unit to be able to transfer his/her stats (e.g. band trading, reasonable use of stat boosters, getting to --/20). The results of completing LHM (i.e. rank) has no direct bearing whatsoever on the results of completing HHM.

Of course, this would change if the tier list specifically stipulated that LHM must be S ranked in addition to HHM. But it doesn't.

Edited February 12, 2010 by dondon151

[HJ.]

Okay, so that logic works for FE9->FE10 because of data transfer, but like you say, LHM has no such bearing on HHM. So I'm still not seeing anything other than the FE-equivalent of the Edgar-Clause, here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, so that logic works for FE9->FE10 because of data transfer, but like you say, LHM has no such bearing on HHM. So I'm still not seeing anything other than the FE-equivalent of the Edgar-Clause, here.

Except if you don't play LHM efficiently, and you don't play it for S rank, then at that point you may as well abuse to get your units up to level 12 or higher like dondon said. However, that doesn't seem like a good thing for the purposes of tier discussion.

[Balcerzak]

Except if you don't play LHM efficiently, and you don't play it for S rank, then at that point you may as well abuse to get your units up to level 12 or higher like dondon said. However, that doesn't seem like a good thing for the purposes of tier discussion.

Except "Get Nils to level 7" is also a very concrete requirement laid out by the game. The main reason for ranking HHM over EHM is added content, is it not? Disallowing level 7 Nils runs counter to this argument. I don't see what's so bad about "S rank LHM, barring the extra turns needed to get Nils to level 7 to access full content" being the rule applied. It's an arbitrary requirement, but then again, ranking is arbitrary in general, and it's supported by the game design. Generally this means you'll be failing tactics, because Nils can't survive being thrown into enemy phase to get +3 additional XP per turn.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Balcerzak

[HJ.]

You're also ignoring the tedium argument just like he was. Besides, like I said, just don't zergrush to such ridiculous extents in the previous chapters and you'll be fine. If anything this will make it less stressful and enjoyable, because the way you play LHM makes it seem like a wizard cast Doom on your FE7 game and it's going to explode unless you complete it unnecessarily fast. This works for Nils because he's not gonna run out of units to dance for, but your other units will certainly run out of enemies to kill.

[CATS]

The difference between FE9 transfer and LHM is FE9 transfer doesn't have ranks. LHM does. By the standards of this tier list S Ranking is efficient completion. Ignoring them for LHM just seems blatantly inconsistent.

[dondon151]

By the standards of this tier list, S ranking is efficient completion for HHM. It does not say anything about LHM, so we resort to baseline rules.

[Balcerzak]

Baseline rules being? If we all agreed on a baseline, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[dondon151]

You're also ignoring the tedium argument just like he was. Besides, like I said, just don't zergrush to such ridiculous extents in the previous chapters and you'll be fine. If anything this will make it less stressful and enjoyable, because the way you play LHM makes it seem like a wizard cast Doom on your FE7 game and it's going to explode unless you complete it unnecessarily fast. This works for Nils because he's not gonna run out of units to dance for, but your other units will certainly run out of enemies to kill.

If you don't complete a chapter quickly, then there is no guideline for completing a chapter. I could assert whatever I want in a debate and I should theoretically get away with it.

Your other units will not run out of Lundgren to chip at.

Baseline rules being? If we all agreed on a baseline, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Whatever criteria we go by on the other tier list.

Edited February 12, 2010 by dondon151

[HJ.]

Sure there is: completing a chapter efficiently. Considering how much you guys rave about efficiency, this logical deficit still confuses me. There are plenty of possible guidelines, even. The fact that you immediately reject every notion except your own might make it seem like there isn't, but that's you giving yourself the edgar-clause, nothing else.

Speed also isn't necessarily the same as efficiency.

[Inui]

Can we get back to Marcus and Oswin for a bit? I spent a lot of time on a pretty damn good post and would like for it to matter. It seems pretty obvious to me that Marcus is better, and Oswin's currently listed as the top of high tier. Any EXP rape Marcus causes is made up for by turn shaving letting you enter 32x to get 4532352 EXP killing 20/15 Berserkers.

[Dat Nick]

Personally I think banning boss abuse works better as an argument rather than all this shit about LHM tactics rank. If 19xx is ever assumed then all you're doing is spamming end turn to level up Nils and nobody else. Serra might get a few heals out of it, that's it. The LM stat boosters get used unless the funds ranking really sucks that bad.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Tangerine]

By the standards of this tier list, S ranking is efficient completion for HHM. It does not say anything about LHM, so we resort to baseline rules.

What? This tier list assumes LHM is S ranked. I already said that.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Tangerine

[dondon151]

Speed also isn't necessarily the same as efficiency.

Ranks aside, then what is your guideline?

What? This tier list assumes LHM is S ranked. I already said that.

It does not say so in the opening post, so I did not make that assumption.