FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[HJ.]

Minimizing tedium without sacrificing Exp is generally just the guideline I follow. Of course that could possibly leave it open to debate, but I don't see why it has to be absolutely set in stone beforehand. If someone wants to defend a unit who has a heavy reliance on LHM, such as Erk, he should be prepared to properly debate why LHM should be played and why Erk gets used, etc. Just being able to insta-win by saying "that's how it is!" seems kinda fail.

[Tangerine]

It does not say so in the opening post, so I did not make that assumption.

Yeah, the main post does not get updated much at all I've noticed ;).

[Dat Nick]

How the hell was I supposed to know to add that? I'm not Uri Geller, Mori. You have my AIM, if you think something's important enough to add to the OP, tell me.

[Tangerine]

I haven't used AIM for years. That wasn't my account to begin with, I actually originally borrowed it from my brother so I could talk to one of my friends and it just kind of stuck since I wasn't using MSN either. I just assumed that was important enough to add is all; I'll be sure to make a more to-the-point post next time.

Anyway, what's the topic of conversation atm? Too lazy to read through the text.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Tangerine

[Inui]

Marcus > Oswin.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Inui

[Rodykitty]

This is a tier list where Nino isn't the worst character in the game because of EXP rank. It shouldn't be a surprise that ranks affect the otherwise best character in the game.

Edited February 12, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

Marcus is fucking top tier even with that gay rank in existence. Certainly better than Osw1n.

[grandjackal]

Just to (hopefully) bring a thought to that bit that was argued before about the chapter before Canas's, what with the silver sword and knight crest deal.

Has anyone that perhaps after Marcus rams his lance down the thief's throat and nabbing the concealed silver sword from his doublet, he would then take a chest key out of his own pocket and click open the second chest for the knight's crest? That seems far more easier than having to fly Matthew up there by express airways.

Sorry, just seemed a bit unresolved, figured I'd try to chip in, cause...Well, I wanna argue again as much as I suck at it.

[dondon151]

Has anyone that perhaps after Marcus rams his lance down the thief's throat and nabbing the concealed silver sword from his doublet, he would then take a chest key out of his own pocket and click open the second chest for the knight's crest? That seems far more easier than having to fly Matthew up there by express airways.

Good idea. The problem is that the only purchasable Chest Keys in this game are in the secret shops (i.e. none before chapter 17) and the site doesn't have any obtainable Chest Keys listed, so I'm strongly inclined to believe that there is no Chest Key available for Marcus to open that chest.

[Life]

Good idea. The problem is that the only purchasable Chest Keys in this game are in the secret shops (i.e. none before chapter 17) and the site doesn't have any obtainable Chest Keys listed, so I'm strongly inclined to believe that there is no Chest Key available for Marcus to open that chest.

I can't remember if this is the case for HHM but I know that in HNM ('cause I just beat this chapter today), there is a lootable Chest Key. I can't remember who holds it but I think it's the archer in the southern treasure room. If he holds it, the best way to get it is to lure him to the northern part of the room and snipe him over the wall. Could save a ton of turns if it's true for HHM (like I said, I can't remember).

[Inui]

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/7263033/1/?x=40#new

[dondon151]

There are a lot of lootable Door Keys in chapter 17 HHM, but no Chest Keys.

[Rodykitty]

Marcus is fucking top tier even with that gay rank in existence. Certainly better than Osw1n.

With ranked, there is more leniency with turn count, making Marcus' abilities less of a necessity. Oswin has great earlygame utility while actually helping EXP rank while being useful.

Chapter 12: Kill all enemies map, Oswin does well here, obviously, due to being able to meet enemies without movement being an issue.

Chapter 13:

The blue and red squares show movement. Each red square is maximum movement per turn, if Hector moves full move per turn. One path takes six turns to complete the chapter, and the other seven. The turns needed to 5* Tactics are 10. This isn't taking account rescuing the Lord to increase movement, so this gives Oswin plenty of time to actually perform actions, especially on a choke point oriented map such as this.

13x: Defense Map. Oswin shines.

14: The map's design disallows Oswin rushing due to long distances, much like an FE4 map. He can still contribute defending the tent to gain EXP, or fighting Pirate reinforcements. This map has a 12 turn maximum for 5 starring, and Oswin can move 44 spaces within that time. It is possible for him to reach Priscilla, which takes about 7 turns.

15: Defense map.

16: Hmm. He'll probably need to be rescued to be useful, but there are a lot of places where enemies crowd, so it would be useful.

17: He can farm reinforcements.

17x: Not likely useful, especially because this chapter actually has a low turn requirement.

Chapter 18:

This map is a giant chokepoint. Hector can reach the boss in about four turns (if equipped with Hand Axe. The maximum turn limit is 7 for 5*'ing tactics, so one can afford to give Oswin tanking opportunities and slow play the chapter slightly.

Chapter 19:

This chapter has a 10 maximum requirement, and Hector can reach the boss (get into melee range) in around six turns. There are many chokepoints on this map. If Oswin's defense is high enough by this point, nomads shouldn't do that much damage to him. Also, he's probably doubling the Pegasus Knight reinforcements.

19x:

Maximum turn count is 10. Hector can reach the throne in 6 turns, so you can have a flyer carry Oswin to the other side of the mountain, where Mages are a non-issue.

Chapter 20: Crappy chapter for Oswin, regardless of what tier criteria you're using.

Chapter 21: Maximum turn count is 5.

Chapter 22: Level design heavily favors Oswin, but turn count does not. Still, even within five turns due to the massive amounts of enemies, he can probably find something to do.

Chapter 23: Lol.

Chapter 23x: I know little about this chapter, but... What the fizzeck? 23 turn requirement.

Chapter 24B (no map for 24A): Should be a great chapter for Oswin. A straightforward path and a bunch of Dragon Knight reinforcements for him to tank.

Chapter 25: Seemingly no requirements here, meaning this chapter should be played with efficiency in mind.

Chapter 26: If Oswin is promoted, then he won't be able to be flown over the mountain to help unless you have an unpromoted Florina, IIRC.

Chapter 27B: Snow map, but a high turn requirement, but I still doubt Oswin will do much.

Chapter 28: This chapter is like Chapter 20, where Oswin won't be ideal regardless of tier criteria.

Chapter 28x: Wow, never seen this chapter before. Still, doesn't look ideal for Oswin.

Chapter 29:

[00:33] <SevenDeadlySins> also fe3

[00:33] <SevenDeadlySins> i think you done fucked up

[00:33] <SevenDeadlySins> http://i48.tinypic.com/2yocy34.png

[00:33] <SevenDeadlySins> wrong map dawg

[00:34] <FE3_Player> Alright, I'll remove that.

[00:34] <SevenDeadlySins> that's what it looks like on eliwood mode

[00:34] <SevenDeadlySins> the map is the same

[00:34] <SevenDeadlySins> but 100% of enemies are mages

[00:34] <SevenDeadlySins> and not just "mages", fuck you in the ass valkyries with 18-22 speed

[00:35] <FE3_Player> Edited.

[00:35] <SevenDeadlySins> so basically cog of destiny is "oswin sucks dick don't field him" level

[00:35] <FE3_Player> It's probably "Give Oswin Pure Water."

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> eh

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> actually yeah

[00:36] <FE3_Player> He has 9 Res at 20/1.

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> he can double a lot of the mages there if he gets lucky on spe

[00:36] <FE3_Player> He's probably one shotting them.

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> so yeah ENJOY YOUR TANKING

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> he is a fucking monster there

[00:36] <SevenDeadlySins> give him a jav and watch bitches drop

Chapter 30: Should be played efficiently.

Chapter 31: Oswin can be positioned to be close to the largest masses of enemies.

Annnnnnd... It turns out I was looking at the wrong turn count tables for rankings, but from a glance it looks like most of the turn requirements are actually higher.

This doesn't actually prove that Oswin is better than Marcus in ranked, but it sets up a line of thinking that can justify why he's likely there in the first place. I'm personally leaning towards Oswin mostly because he shares early game utility, but now we have a less rush based environment, and during Oswin's worst chapters (lategame) you can give EXP to recently recruited units instead.

EDIT: Removed Cog of Destiny due to a correction made on IRC.

EDIT 2: Re-added Cog of Destiny.

Edited February 12, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

You really need to go look at the turn requirements and think about them and consider 0 turn chapters and how much Marcus shaving off turns really helps.

[Rodykitty]

You really need to go look at the turn requirements and think about them and consider 0 turn chapters and how much Marcus shaving off turns really helps.

For chapters like this, except maybe some ones I didn't consider yet, I said, "Chapter should be played efficiently", implying that it is not a chapter that favors Oswin. Edited February 12, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

I'm talking about early on, too. Like 13 which has 10 turns. Why take 10? Use Marcus and take like 7 instead. That's 3 turns to use somewhere else on a 0 turn chapter or the arena.

[Rodykitty]

The point I'm trying to make is that since turn count is much higher than what you may need, that Oswin's move problems are not as prevalent as on an efficient playthrough, thus whatever utility he has outweighs his issues more.

[Inui]

Turn count isn't high due to homosexual 0 turn chapters like Talons Alight and Crazed Beast.

[Rodykitty]

Well, I have nothing. What's the reason Oswin is above Marcus, BB?

[Inui]

You have to shave off turns in other chapters to make up for the 0 turn ones and in order to hit up stuff like 19xx and 32x, and you want 32x for the 353253532 EXP there.

[CATS]

The point I'm trying to make is that since turn count is much higher than what you may need, that Oswin's move problems are not as prevalent as on an efficient playthrough, thus whatever utility he has outweighs his issues more.

Marcus is top of top on efficiency list. He can be significantly worse than that here and still be better than Oswin.

[Dat Nick]

Well, I have nothing. What's the reason Oswin is above Marcus, BB?

Making the change unless somebody speaks up.

0 turn ones and in order to hit up stuff like 19xx

Is 19xx even assumed? Keep in mind my chief complaint against 19xx is the retarded 0 turn requirement, rather than powerlevelling Nils in LM (And let me clarify that if this is assumed, Nils is the ONLY CHARACTER getting abused/powerlevelled, Serra is going to get a few free heals, that's the only thing you're allowed to do)

Edited February 12, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

Is 19xx even assumed? Keep in mind my chief complaint against 19xx is the retarded 0 turn requirement, rather than powerlevelling Nils in LM (And let me clarify that if this is assumed, Nils is the ONLY CHARACTER getting abused/powerlevelled, Serra is going to get a few free heals, that's the only thing you're allowed to do)

Marcus turn shaving makes it possible to hit stuff up like that in theory. 32x is much better though.

High Tier looks all fucked up to me, lol.

-High Tier-

Kent

Oswin

Sain

Guy

Erk

Lowen

Hector

Eliwood

Florina

That's probably how I'd do it.

Note that Marcus isn't there. :)

I am unsure of Oswin's placement. I'm very certain that Rick Astley (aka Kent) is the best one there and that Florina is probably the worst. Hector needed to go down due to being locked at 20/0 for so long and promoting so late. Clearly worse than Guy and Erk since they promote way earlier and rape stuff forever.

Edit: I think Serra is better than Raven, but maybe I'll let CATS, Solid, or Reikken pursue that one.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Inui

[dondon151]

Sain is better than Kent. Kent's AS lead actually isn't too significant at all, because once the lead becomes significant, enemy AS sinks to the point where it's superfluous. Sain, however, reaches 2HKOs much more often than Kent does (chapter 24 WKs are a good example).

There's really no reason why Kent, Sain, and Lowen should not be adjacent to each other. They perform so similarly that it's difficult to justify placing characters between them.

[Inui]

I can't name an enemy Sain is killing that Kent isn't, while I can do that the other way around.