FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[HJ.]

I have no idea, maybe someone who actually has an account there should make use of that nifty search function to find it and see if it's been long-dead.

[Dat Nick]

I did use the search button. Whatever I came up with was archived.

[HJ.]

Oh, well in that case I dunno.

[dondon151]

Since Marcus has a way easier time soling the earlygame than other dudes do soloing the lategame, this seems relatively good for Canas, if anything. nevermind the fact that I strongly disagree with this logic, because unit 1 being better than unit 2 and 3 has no bearing on whether 2 is better than 3, or vice versa.

Marcus is 1 unit. Geitz/Harken/other leveled up units are more than 1 unit.

This logic makes sense. The profit that a unit brings to the team is equivalent to his normal profit minus opportunity cost, or the normal profit of the next best option. In earlygame, the potential next best options are limited and are not as good as in lategame, where they're abundant and a lot better in comparison.

[HJ.]

Why does it matter? Marcus can solo the earlygame, so other characters are obsolete by default if we follow your logic. Nobody cares about, or needs a "backup solo-er". Though, incidentally, you have one in the shape of Oswin.

[dondon151]

Why does it matter? Marcus can solo the earlygame, so other characters are obsolete by default if we follow your logic. Nobody cares about, or needs a "backup solo-er". Though, incidentally, you have one in the shape of Oswin.

Marcus can't solo earlygame. He's not there in chapter 11. He starts on the south end of the map in chapter 12. He can't visit both villages in chapter 13 (or even only the top left one) and get to the boss faster than him + someone else. He can't solo chapter 13x because he needs to get to the village and there are 4 ways to get to the center island. He can't solo chapter 14 because someone needs to visit the villages. He can't solo chapter 15 because there are 3 ways into the throne area.

Edited February 10, 2010 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

What defense lead? If you'll read my posts, even under the assumption Erk and Canas are 20/10, which is at the tail end of the game and this is the BEST it's going to get for Canas, the lead is barely relevant. It's one goddamn defense and one goddamn HP, whoop de fucking do. It might as well not even be there, since this is the lead at it's PEAK and it only even exists at Endgame. Erk WINS defense at times due to his level lead. You're seriously going to argue 1 HP and defense lategame>Erk shitstomping him in AS all game?

It's almost exactly 6. 13.90=almost 6.

You said: "Canas's response: 1 defense, and that's not even there if Erk gets to 14 first and procs speed."

How would that defense lead disappear if Erk procs speed?

For some reason I can't find the post with the levels, but Canas was something like 8.86. 13.90-8.86=5.04.

[CATS]

gfaqs list is dead.

Why are supports less viable in ranked? It's not like you're moving faster here than you would in efficiency. If anything it's the opposite. In efficiency all concerns are secondary to turncount, therefore you bum-rush like mad whenever you can. In ranked there's a set goal that you don't need to do any better than with regards to turncount, and there are other things besides only your turncount that matter, so I would imagine that you move at least a little more slowly in ranked.

[HJ.]

11: Okay, good for Hector I guess

12: He can reach the area where Hector is quite fast thanks to huge Mov, and he takes out all the enemies along the way.

13: Why not? Have him circle the map, wiping out units along the way. By the time Hector reaches the castle to seize, Marcus will definitely have reached the top village.

13x: Then send Oswin up there. This is not really a viable argument in Erk vs. Canas because neither exist.

14: Sure he can. Stick him in the middle of the map in the first turn and let everything run in to be raped on the enemy phase, then go up to the north village and kill any stragglers there, and ride down to the south. All done before Hector reaches the castle and seizes

15: Have him clear one of the paths and send all your units up there, then return him (or let Oswin stay behind) to defend the throne.

Even if Marcus can't solo it alone, none of it results in a situation where Erk shines. In fact, he would kind of fail compared to Oswin, Hector and Dorcas, so again it doesn't matter. Why are we even discussing this, though? Am I really the only one who thinks this is ridiculous?

[Tangerine]

gfaqs list is dead.

If by dead you mean establishing rules for the next one, sure. This is still our list.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Tangerine

[CATS]

Yeah, I guess that would be a more accurate way to put it, though the topic discussing rules for the list also seems pretty dead.

[Tangerine]

Jaffar just hasn't started the next topic yet. He's the guy who makes our lists. Also..

Why are supports less viable in ranked? It's not like you're moving faster here than you would in efficiency. If anything it's the opposite. In efficiency all concerns are secondary to turncount, therefore you bum-rush like mad whenever you can. In ranked there's a set goal that you don't need to do any better than with regards to turncount, and there are other things besides only your turncount that matter, so I would imagine that you move at least a little more slowly in ranked.

Ranked is the exact same. Or at least, FE7 ranked. You move as fast as you can to build up as many free arena turns as you can. This helps the EXP rank tremendously and gives you more money to throw around.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Tangerine

[dondon151]

12: He can reach the area where Hector is quite fast thanks to huge Mov, and he takes out all the enemies along the way.

What about the enemies in the south? Marcus either leaves Eliwood's group or doesn't join Hector's group. This map is rout enemy.

13: Why not? Have him circle the map, wiping out units along the way. By the time Hector reaches the castle to seize, Marcus will definitely have reached the top village.

Hector should be able to seize the gate the turn that Marcus kills the boss.

13x: Then send Oswin up there. This is not really a viable argument in Erk vs. Canas because neither exist.

What about the right bridge and the bottom bridge? Oswin is not invincible against the enemy brigands either.

14: Sure he can. Stick him in the middle of the map in the first turn and let everything run in to be raped on the enemy phase, then go up to the north village and kill any stragglers there, and ride down to the south. All done before Hector reaches the castle and seizes

Priscilla should be recruited a turn or so before the enemies are totally routed. Again, this map is rout enemy, not seize. You're going to have to have people deal with the PK reinforcements from the southeast too, so Marcus can't do this map by himself.

15: Have him clear one of the paths and send all your units up there, then return him (or let Oswin stay behind) to defend the throne.

This is viable if EXP rank weren't something the player would be concerned about. But then, what about the chests?

Even if Marcus can't solo it alone, none of it results in a situation where Erk shines. In fact, he would kind of fail compared to Oswin, Hector and Dorcas, so again it doesn't matter. Why are we even discussing this, though? Am I really the only one who thinks this is ridiculous?

You listed 3 people that Erk lost to. Even then, Erk still beats them all offensively, with the exception of Hector on cavs and armors.

We've had numerous discussions about how opportunity costs factor into tier lists. So we're used to it by now.

[CATS]

And when arena abusing you also get to support abuse simultaneously, or at least I would imagine so.

[dondon151]

And when arena abusing you also get to support abuse simultaneously, or at least I would imagine so.

Not really. The most efficient arena abusing setup probably involves Ninian + 2-3 healers + 3 fliers/mounted units, so you'd be limited as to who you can support abuse.

[Tangerine]

And when arena abusing you also get to support abuse simultaneously, or at least I would imagine so.

Only for the units that are using the arena. It's not like your whole team is going to be doing it. Assassins, Valkyries and Bishops would probably be the best abusers; the most free EXP possible. Though it obviously isn't possible to always make use of that considering two of those are your healers.

Also, the best time to arena abuse is in Geitz's joining chapter.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Tangerine

[CATS]

I imagine that you would be able to have atleast some of those guys end turns next to each other, though. Assuming that there are no enemies around, you'd be free to arrange units however you want to. You must be able to manipulate your formation favorably to some extent. For example, I don't see why Canas and Pent as two of the healers couldn't stand right next to each other and do their job perfectly fine at the same time.

[HJ.]

Oh, you're concerned about Exp rank, now? But then that also means you can't just spam 3-4 prepromoted super-units later on, because that rapes the rank too.

And I still think the whole mentality is dumb because Raven being better than Oswin and Dorcas doesn't mean you can't figure out who's better between the latter two, nor should how good Raven is even matter, it's how good Dorcas and Oswin are compared to each other that matter. Otherwise debating seems pointless in it's entirety, not to mention dreadfully boring and trite.

In regards to your points, having Marcus rape everything is still waaaay faster than trying to add someone else into the mix, regardless of how you go about it. Priscilla gets recruited even if you don't visit the village, btw, it just has to be intact by the end of it. I'm also pretty sure chapter 14 is seize. And yes, Oswin is essentially invincible against them. He takes 1-2 damage at first, and his Def rises very fast so it's tinkville before you know it.

Right, Erk. He can't do anything alone, really, since he's extremely weak. Oswin might not be as speedy about killing, but in return he doesn't die. Considering the situations wherein Marcus can't do everything are limited and only require one or two helping hands and I have 3 helping hands who are better than Erk, it's still meaningless.

Edited February 10, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun

[CATS]

14 is defeat enemy iirc.

I don't think he said you're gonna solo with 3-4 pre-promos later. Exp rank is actually the biggest reason why you wouldn't do that. I don't see how you could possibly not fail Exp rank while doing that.

I agree you can still figure who is better between Dorcas and Oswin. That's not akin to the point in question here, though. The question is Erk vs Canas; Erk is superior earlier in the game, while Canas is (arguably) superior later in the game. So how do you figure out which one's lead is more important? Compare each relative to overall performance during that time period. If later there's a few promoted enemies, but 75% of the enemies are unpromoted rubbish that they're the same against anyway, whereas earlier there's a higher proportion of enemies that actually matter and that they aren't the same against, then Canas's lategame lead is less significant than Erk's earlygame lead.

I don't necessarily think this is the case, since I think there is a high percentage of earlygame enemies where Erk has no significant lead either. For example, look at Pirate Ship. Weighed down pegs and shamans that even Canas is likely to double, and then rly fast mercs where it's tough for Erk to double as well. But regardless, I think the above is more along the lines of dondon's argument than "it doesn't matter because they're not the best units either way." Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, you're concerned about Exp rank, now? But then that also means you can't just spam 3-4 prepromoted super-units later on, because that rapes the rank too.

Did he say he is spamming promoted units later on?

And I still think the whole mentality is dumb because Raven being better than Oswin and Dorcas doesn't mean you can't figure out who's better between the latter two, nor should how good Raven is even matter, it's how good Dorcas and Oswin are compared to each other that matter. Otherwise debating seems pointless in it's entirety, not to mention dreadfully boring and trite.

But consider this:

Character A is 2nd best for 10 chapters, then later on Character B exists and for the next 12 chapters B > A, but B is like 6th best and A is 7th best now. Which one is better overall?

The basic concept dondon is going for is that A > B. Well, A could probably be greater than B regardless thanks to availability, so I suppose I should alter their chapter totals a bit to make it so that if B was better relative to the other units when he exists then he'd be better than A. So, maybe 8 chapters then 14 chapters, or something. And drop A to 8th best for the last 14 chapters.

Obviously my example doesn't reflect the actual situation, but the underlying concept is the same. It's a question of economic profit.

CATS' answer might be better than mine. Read both.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[HJ.]

He said he had Pent solo Sands of Time or something like that, so eh.

He also said Canas' lategame wins are less significant because you don't need Canas to kill them or something like that. In fact I think my problem with that is how this whole thing got started. I think that when Canas can kill the dangerous enemies and Erk can't, that's significant in Erk vs. Canas, regardless of whether or not Raven and friends can solo the map.

[dondon151]

Oh, you're concerned about Exp rank, now? But then that also means you can't just spam 3-4 prepromoted super-units later on, because that rapes the rank too.

By then you'd have those 3-4 prepromotes in addition to something like 8 other promoted units to compete with Canas. I didn't say that you only had to spam Geitz and Pent.

And I still think the whole mentality is dumb because Raven being better than Oswin and Dorcas doesn't mean you can't figure out who's better between the latter two, nor should how good Raven is even matter, it's how good Dorcas and Oswin are compared to each other that matter. Otherwise debating seems pointless in it's entirety, not to mention dreadfully boring and trite.

Other characters definitely have their impact on the subjects of debate. If I were debating Dorcas vs. Oswin, someone would bring up the fact that Dorcas promoting means taking away a Hero Crest from Raven, and Raven is the best choice for that item. How is this any different? An opportunity cost is an opportunity cost, regardless of whether it is a promotion item or a combat position.

In regards to your points, having Marcus rape everything is still waaaay faster than trying to add someone else into the mix, regardless of how you go about it. Priscilla gets recruited even if you don't visit the village, btw, it just has to be intact by the end of it. I'm also pretty sure chapter 14 is seize. And yes, Oswin is essentially invincible against them. He takes 1-2 damage at first, and his Def rises very fast so it's tinkville before you know it.

Having Marcus rape everything is waaaay slower than trying to add someone else into the mix. Unlike your claim, however, I can reasonably support mine by saying that the more units you have deployed, the greater the area you can cover on enemy phase.

Chapter 14 is rout. I know this because the PK reinforcements like to ruin your day and retreat to the forts before you can kill them, prolonging the chapter.

Right, Erk. He can't do anything alone, really, since he's extremely weak. Oswin might not be as speedy about killing, but in return he doesn't die. Considering the situations wherein Marcus can't do everything are limited and only require one or two helping hands and I have 3 helping hands who are better than Erk, it's still meaningless.

But they're not better than Erk, at least not in every respect. Oswin not being speedy about killing is bad. If you have Erk stand behind him and snipe on enemies' res, that will go a lot faster.

[CATS]

He said he had Pent solo Sands of Time or something like that, so eh.

He also said Canas' lategame wins are less significant because you don't need Canas to kill them or something like that. In fact I think my problem with that is how this whole thing got started. I think that when Canas can kill the dangerous enemies and Erk can't, that's significant in Erk vs. Canas, regardless of whether or not Raven and friends can solo the map.

He's not saying it doesn't matter. He's saying it's less significant than the dangerous enemies that Erk can kill and Canas can't earlier in the game.

[dondon151]

For example, look at Pirate Ship. Weighed down pegs and shamans that even Canas is likely to double, and then rly fast mercs where it's tough for Erk to double as well.

Canas actually needs a speed proc to double Flux shamans, so he loses there. Erk has no shot at the mercs until he's at least 14/0 with 14 AS, and even then that only doubles the slowest 8/0 merc.

He said he had Pent solo Sands of Time or something like that, so eh.

You're twisting my words around. I had Pent solo the south entrance only. I had other units kill the snipers and druids.

He also said Canas' lategame wins are less significant because you don't need Canas to kill them or something like that. In fact I think my problem with that is how this whole thing got started. I think that when Canas can kill the dangerous enemies and Erk can't, that's significant in Erk vs. Canas, regardless of whether or not Raven and friends can solo the map.

Let's say hypothetically that there is 1 enemy that no one but Canas is able to kill. The utility of Canas killing that enemy is not altered because there is no opportunity cost, i.e., no one else shares Canas's ability. If we introduce another character (say, Rath) that can also kill that enemy, then Canas's utility is reduced by Rath's utility, because someone else can also do it, so Canas being able to kill that enemy is still worth a lot, but much less than it was before.

[HJ.]

By then you'd have those 3-4 prepromotes in addition to something like 8 other promoted units to compete with Canas. I didn't say that you only had to spam Geitz and Pent.

Well, what do you expect me to think when you say you solo maps with Pent? Edit: oh, the south. Depending on your definition of the south, that could include 70% of the enemies.

Other characters definitely have their impact on the subjects of debate. If I were debating Dorcas vs. Oswin, someone would bring up the fact that Dorcas promoting means taking away a Hero Crest from Raven, and Raven is the best choice for that item. How is this any different? An opportunity cost is an opportunity cost, regardless of whether it is a promotion item or a combat position.

Of course other characters have an impact on the debate in some regards, I never said otherwise. That's just a straw man fallacy. Besides, like WJC said, Erk does not hold any significant leads earlier on. In fact, I'd say he's worse than Marcus/Guy/Matthew/Lowen/Hector/Oswin/Dorcas, so... again, what are we arguing? Erk's combat position is no more favorable than Canas'.

Having Marcus rape everything is waaaay slower than trying to add someone else into the mix. Unlike your claim, however, I can reasonably support mine by saying that the more units you have deployed, the greater the area you can cover on enemy phase.

Chapter 14 is rout. I know this because the PK reinforcements like to ruin your day and retreat to the forts before you can kill them, prolonging the chapter.

Er, sticking Marcus in the middle and letting all the enemies attack him and get raped is much faster than slowly moving your other units along, making sure you're positioning them tactically and such. Those pegs in chapter 14 seem to be the only problem here, and Erk sucks against those.

But they're not better than Erk, at least not in every respect. Oswin not being speedy about killing is bad. If you have Erk stand behind him and snipe on enemies' res, that will go a lot faster.

I think most people will agree that 2RKOing and not dying > 1RKOing some things and dying. Also, Canas can do this as well as Erk once he joins, since one chop from Oswin is enough to leave them weak enough for Canas to pick them off. Even if not, picking off weakened units is nothing at all special, so this is not a point for Erk at all, if you ask me.

Let's say hypothetically that there is 1 enemy that no one but Canas is able to kill. The utility of Canas killing that enemy is not altered because there is no opportunity cost, i.e., no one else shares Canas's ability. If we introduce another character (say, Rath) that can also kill that enemy, then Canas's utility is reduced by Rath's utility, because someone else can also do it, so Canas being able to kill that enemy is still worth a lot, but much less than it was before.

This also applies to Erk early on, so I'm not seeing the point of this argument.

Another thing which I noticed was never commented on is that the arena is rather risky in HHM unless you have Lucius' Def, which makes all the enemies have crap equipment.

Edited February 10, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun