FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[Inui]

Wow, good idea. Now Marcus is taking up TWO unit slots to be usable.

Yeah, because we totally want to be using Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca in those chapters where everyone is deployed or you have extra slots.

[Life]

Yeah, because we totally want to be using Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca in those chapters where everyone is deployed or you have extra slots.

What about Chapter 15 and onwards? It's a waste of another unit spot if I'm going to field Rebecca just so that Marcus can rape everything in sight.

Marcus is great, yes. But not because he kills everything. He's awesome because he has 8 Move and can get anyone out of a tight spot. He gets his own boss kill in 13x because Puzon will take an arm and a leg off of everyone else (actually, I've yet to face him up against Oswin so I wonder if Oswin can be considered for that Exp). His Silver Lance is basically a Prf weapon too. But Marcus is never a final team member. He is fantastic in the beginning of the game, though.

[Inui]

Starting with Chapter 15, he doesn't do that anymore, and he doesn't really need to. Enemies finally got strong enough to not instantly die. He won't double sword users. He won't one-round armors without a good weapon. He won't kill stuff with any weapon anymore.

[Tangerine]

Yeah, because we totally want to be using Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca in those chapters where everyone is deployed or you have extra slots.

Dorcas and Bartre? You mean the two units with the highest attack power after Marcus (taking Oswin's likely WTD in the early chapters into account) and low enough speed to not double? Well, they sound like good softeners to me. Rebecca also gets 30 exp per kill.

[Dat Nick]

How the hell is Marcus Level 17 at any point in the game ever?

Has anybody gotten him that high on EFFICIENCY? (Don't even try the arena abooze argument, Marcus has shit stats for his level, he is going to get raepd in the Arena...)

Edited February 11, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Life]

Starting with Chapter 15, he doesn't do that anymore, and he doesn't really need to. Enemies finally got strong enough to not instantly die. He won't double sword users. He won't one-round armors without a good weapon. He won't kill stuff with any weapon anymore.

Dude, not even Sealen lives through Marcus' slaughter. Look.

??/1 Marcus has 20 Atk and 11 AS with an Iron Sword. Sealen has 5 AS, 7 Def and 26 HP. Marcus one rounds the guy with the weakest weapon possible.

You're pulling stuff out of your ass right now. Enemies have not gotten strong enough to live especially when the boss gets one rounded.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Inui]

Mine's sometimes higher in VoD and I still don't rape my Experience rank. >_>;

Dude, not even Sealen lives through Marcus' slaughter. Look.

??/1 Marcus has 20 Atk and 11 AS with an Iron Sword. Sealen has 5 AS, 7 Def and 26 HP. Marcus one rounds the guy.

You're pulling stuff out of your ass right now. Enemies have not gotten strong enough to live especially when the boss gets one rounded.

Iron Sword!Marcus doesn't one-round the armors or mercs/myrms and he doesn't kill cavs easily without a good weapon.

Sealen has 26 HP and 7 Def? No way. That has to be normal mode, dude.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[Dat Nick]

Yeah. The SF boss stats are based off of normal mode.

Athos>Rath (okay it's not much but I'm desperate to just put Athos on the list. I can move him down later if I have to.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

Thought so. Marcus stops insta-slaughtering in Chapter 14 due to 8 AS Cavaliers and then Chapter 15 on starts making 8 AS not uncommon and enemies have enough HP/Def to not die from Marcus using weak weapons.

So, my "Rescue shit tier" idea still works. Fuck Rebecca/Bartre.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[Life]

Mine's sometimes higher in VoD and I still don't rape my Experience rank. >_>;

Iron Sword!Marcus doesn't one-round the armors or mercs/myrms and he doesn't kill cavs easily without a good weapon.

Sealen has 26 HP and 7 Def? No way. That has to be normal mode, dude.

My bad. See, I don't have my data from HHM because I lost it a while back (I'm on an emulator). I just unlocked HNM today and I'm rushing through it just to get to HHM so I can S Rank it again.

Yeah. The SF boss stats are based off of normal mode.

That's where I got it from.

[Tangerine]

No, it doesn't work at all. I never thought anyone could actually make Marcus contribute negatively, but you've done it. Definitely a pioneer.

[Inui]

No, it doesn't work at all. I never thought anyone could actually make Marcus contribute negatively, but you've done it. Definitely a pioneer.

Yeah, because you totally need horrible units doing things to S rank this game.

Or, you know, if you don't like my idea, don't do it, and Marcus stops insta-slaughtering in Chapter 14 anyways.

[HJ.]

But Rebecca isn't a scrub. ;_;

I'm definitely going to rape you in Renault vs. Marcus, Inui.

[Florete]

The simple answer to that is Lyn does not need to be trained up to level 20 in order for the player to recruit Geitz.

Thank you for that bit of information, the lv 15 in my post was a typo.

Of course, neither does Hector, but training Hector is clearly preferable to training Lyn.

Hector > Lyn was established about 7 years ago, thanks.

Plus, remember that Hector is already good, while Lyn is already bad--using more of a bad unit as opposed to using more of a good unit is a logically inferior decision.

When is this "already" you're talking about? Before or after you train Lyn to recruit Geitz?

I suppose Lyn does get some points for recruiting Geitz in the marginal event that Eliwood is not played and Geitz is.

But this is obviously not enough to make Lyn > Karla. It's all about the legs, after all, and Lyn just can't keep up.

[Inui]

But Rebecca isn't a scrub. ;_;

I'm definitely going to rape you in Renault vs. Marcus, Inui.

Yes, she is. Fuck you. She's a Sniper. Also fuck you.

No. You are getting THE DICK.

[HJ.]

If not for the fact that it would be extremely gay, Renault would ram his staff (don't even think it) so far up your ass it would come out of your mouth.

[Inui]

Marcus is the best character in this game. After my rape post, how is he not at least bottom of top tier yet or in Oswin's current spot at worst?

He disarmed Dart in the blink of an eye and ran away with an axe the size of a person!

Edit: I think I'm going to argue Pent above Lowen next, I guess. That shouldn't be too hard given Lowen's constant lultastic offense and how overrated durability is as I have shown with Marcus's garbage stats still making him nearly invincible in VoD.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[HJ.]

If Marcus is among the best, that would simply mean Renault is the best.

Besides, Renault knocked Bartre out with a single punch. THAT is instant top tier.

Edited February 11, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun

[Inui]

If Renault showed up and decided to put away the sissy sparkles and turn into a Hero or some shit, he'd probably be your best unit.

[Jaybee]

That video was awesome as hell.

[Balcerzak]

Iron Sword!Marcus doesn't one-round the armors or mercs/myrms and he doesn't kill cavs easily without a good weapon.

Sealen has 26 HP and 7 Def? No way. That has to be normal mode, dude.

I don't recall his exact stats on my playthrough, but loading a savestate from Mekkah I see 29HP and 7 Def (Ch15 wasn't important enough to waste one of my only 3 slots on so I don't have multiple numbers to compare), and if Sealen hasn't switched to Steel for +1AS, Marcus can double him (otherwise not). In my playthrough, using an Iron Axe he deals enough damage to 1RKO, provided he doesn't miss (I hit an unlucky string of RN).

Also, I don't recall exactly, but I believe Marcus either doubles or borderline doubles the Javelin Cavs.

Marcus is great, yes. But not because he kills everything. He's awesome because he has 8 Move and can get anyone out of a tight spot. He gets his own boss kill in 13x because Puzon will take an arm and a leg off of everyone else (actually, I've yet to face him up against Oswin so I wonder if Oswin can be considered for that Exp). His Silver Lance is basically a Prf weapon too. But Marcus is never a final team member. He is fantastic in the beginning of the game, though.

Killing Edge Guy can handle Puzon too. Puzon attacks on enemy phase, Guy might crit, failing that, Guy attacks on player phase and has a second shot at crit. You'll need to be a little careful due to all the reinforcements around, obviously, but it certainly can be done. Oswin is probably viable as well.

Chapter 19x has a 10 turn requirement and you need to kill Kishuna and Aion and seize before that if you want 19xx and to not fail in Tactics. Oswin's slow self can't even reach Kishuna, or even Aion in most cases, in 10 turns. Marcus rapes Kishuna compared to how badly everyone else does against him. 19xx is another massacre in Marcus's favor due to stopping the thieves and finishing that chapter ASAP since it's a 0 turn one. You want to blast through that bitch and get some awesome items and a free 100 EXP from killing a very high level Druid and get the fuck out because that chapter is the worst ever for Tactics.

Regarding reaching Kishuna: Pegasus drop Oswin says hello. You'll need to do it to have an Armor cleaned out anyway (even if the mages cooperate and make the Sniper spawn crooked) so you have two spots to attack from, and if you plan it well he and Peg can finish the non-crooked Sniper to get three slots to attack from, which you will need in order to get the kill. Also Marcus's Silver Lance rape of Kishuna, while quite nice, doesn't pack the same punch as Killing Edge crit from Raven (and maybe Guy). I guess you could have Marcus use the Killing Edge, but that then requires trading to get it back to one of the other uses, which is tactically poor. I will agree Marcus's performance on 19xx is quite the godsend though.

And that pretty much only talks about combat performance and Tactics. Marcus's other benefits, like not needing a promotional item, not screwing over another unit, shaving turns off early on, performing tasks he's best suited for above all others, etc. easily put him ahead. In fact, Marcus shaving off like 10 turns through the earlygame lets you use the arena 10 times in Chapter 24 to make up for any Experience rank rape while making your army stronger. Giving Geitz like 4-5 free levels is awesome.

Even shaving all these turns off for you, you're not going to have 10 extra turns to spare in the arena. You'll get some use in while moving to Linus, sure, but staying after it's viable to kill him seems foolhardy to me. I will revisit this opinion after playing through the map. That said, his shaving off turns is valuable, as 0 req chapters are a bitch. It will essentially allow you to go to 19xx or 32x. Maybe, if you're lucky, both. I'm of the opinion that it's either that, or 24 Linus arena, but not both.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Balcerzak

[HJ.]

lol nevermind

this place needs a delete post option btw

Edited February 11, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun

[CATS]

I don't recall if they're buyable by Ch 15 (I know one of the fighters joins with one on a certain mode, can't remember if it's on HHM or not) but you can try giving Marcus a steel axe for -4 AS to make him not one round enemies that have half-decent Spd, and knights won't get one-rounded if he uses an iron sword, I'm fairly sure (too lazy to number check this one so call me out if I'm wrong). Steel axe might make him miss sometimes but lolCombat.

I agree rescuing Bartre could be viable early on. Marcus w/ halved AS is a better weakener than Bartre, and if he doesn't rescue then he can't do anything at all without one-rounding, so it's sort of like you have to choose between whether to use Bartre or Marcus to weaken things. When better units become available after Ch 14, then yeah, this argument gets alot harder to make.

[Tangerine]

I don't agree at all. You can't give Marcus credit for essentially what Bartre is making possible. Marcus needs Bartre MUCH more than Bartre needs Marcus.

Not to mention Marcus won't be able to take out something you need him to if things don't go your way.

Bartre weakening things and Marcus killing the odd enemy to prevent getting overwhelmed/keep the pace >>>> Bartre getting rescued and Marcus weakening things.

[CATS]

CE junk.

Okay. I can go with "You're so stupid that I don't even have to bother countering you", only in that nothing is accomplished by making the counter and thus there is no point.

That's the problem, where you assume that nothing will be accomplished; i.e. completely disregarding the possibility that he could change your mind even a little bit, or vice versa, before even giving it a fair shot. That's completely contrary to a discussion topic, which is iirc, what a tier list is supposed to be.

This isn't a minor technicality, and even if it is aside from your point, it is not aside from mine. Considering this is, in part, what I was going for in the first place I certainly don't think it is aside from the point. Call it clarifying the point. Again, Cynthia effectively posted "What Colonel M said" after C_E already countered Colonel M's points. What is the possible point of making a counter to the counter?

a: Convince the opponent they are wrong (as if this happens often on the internet)

b: Convince others that the opponent is wrong.

If everyone who's opinions you care about are already convinced that the opponent is wrong, what's the point? And if a person (right or wrong) is convinced that A will never happen and that b has already happened, there isn't really much point, is there?

Here my problem is the attitude that only certain people matter. Are you suggesting that decisions or the validity of an argument in a tier list topic should be based on who agrees with it, rather than the quality of the logic and the evidence supporting it?

If this had all been back when C_E first posted his ridiculous (according to many) tier list and nobody ever tried anything, I could maybe see where you are coming from. There have been at least half a dozen posts against him. He's "countered" most of them, of course, but clearly the people reading are of the opinion that he's lost even after this. There isn't really much point in going over it and over it.

So you get to dismiss him after one or two exchanges on a certain point, or like 3 or 4 in Fox's case? As if when someone presents a new argument, there is a cutoff point after which if the "people that matter" still aren't convinced, the argument immediately becomes invalid and discussion on the subject is closed? That's the implication I'm getting here. Do correct me if you're not meaning to imply this, and then explain how you're not implying it.

Also, this C_E hasn't delved into the archives in order to counter all the points that created the current tier list. Shall we assume he's conceding it all? Well then, why is his tier list so different? Why does he get to ignore years of work? Why are we the only ones that must counter him?

I agree he doesn't get to ignore the current tier list and totally override it with his own. That's not what he's doing, though. He posted what he thinks the list should be, but he's not sitting there and repeatedly insisting that you immediately change the entire tier list to match his. Rather, he quickly narrowed down to a few individual topics. He's obviously not actually expecting the entire list to be edited immediately. The fact that he posted his own personal tier list has nothing to do with the validity of the actual arguments he's made.

But it really already is a benign dictatorship. The person running the list gets to put in what they think, and if you can convince that person to make the change, or if they see that enough people believe in the change, they change it. It has worked for creating open discussion so far. There will always be one or two people that will never get on board. You can either spend hours arguing with them or you can just move on. You've indicated that if this had already been going on for hundreds of posts (my words, of course, not yours. Just my interpretation) that you'd be okay with starting to ignore someone. I just happen to think we've already reached that point without the hundreds of posts. These things are similar to a democracy in that people generate an idea of what kind of strategies are optimal and what kind of goals the tier list has. Even stipulating ranks doesn't remove the human factor. You can't ever come to a consensus on this, so instead you just go with the majority. Once that framework is set up, arguments can be made in that framework to (hopefully) objectively reach a conclusion on where characters go. It's a partial democracy in that respect, since the first step is inherently democratic, even if the second step isn't. If a person's posts indicate they are going against the grain and they show no indication of bending, why not ignore their conclusions? They are, after all, based on an archaic reasoning (as far as this list is concerned).

This effectively allows for an argument to be declared invalid because alot of people post "I don't like that argument and don't agree with it." That sort of thing completely shuts down discussion, not to mention it destroys any notion of objectivity. Ofcourse it cannot be eliminated entirely, but do you not think it should be kept to a minimum?

Me personally am assuming he is wrong because people I actually trust say he is wrong. Since I've never played the game I can't analyze his claims adequately and certainly can't actually counter them (at least not well). I admit that this decision of mine is questionable, but personally I'm okay with that. As for the rest of the people, some have. Others have stated why they aren't.

Actually having logic and evidence > having alot of people willing to agree with you. The former is objective support for an argument, the latter is not. If these "people you trust" are so smart and likely to be right (as you clearly think they are, else you wouldn't be placing value in their opinions) then why have none of them attempted to prove CE wrong? Perhaps because he is not worth their time (according to you), but look at it objectively without any pre-conceived notions of who "matters" and who doesn't. If Person A posts a long, detailed and logical argument, and Person B's counter-attack is "that's ridiculous and it's so stupid I don't have to bother countering it," who has the more valid argument? If CE is as wrong as you think he is then it should not be difficult to demonstrate that he's being ridiculous, so why such little effort to actually do it?

He can assume whatever he wants, doesn't make it true. If I say that the sun is made of chili poweder and nobody counters because what I said was utterly retarded, should I assume they concede my point?

What was he supposed to assume instead? What's the alternative? I hope you aren't going to seriously suggest that he should assume he is wrong because alot of people thought he was too stupid to be worth their time.