FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[Inui]

I accept my position, I just know I can beat all of you.

Except Solid. :(

I'll be giving you the dick in Oujay vs Thany when I get to it, CATS. :) I hope. I haven't read your post yet, lulz.

[Paperblade]

I did not do a playthrough with the aim of proving that Mia was good. If that were the case, it would have been a failure, just by looking at the rest of the army she was with: Titania, Kieran, Oscar, Boyd, Astrid, Makalov, Jill, Marcia... all units that are better than she is, either all of the time or much of the time that they were both around. Even Soren and Ilyana have arguments, though it's not clear-cut. She beats Ike for a while, sort of. She beats the healers? Give me a break, here.

You weren't using Makalov, Jill, or Marcia. I would imagine this is because using them would have lowered the average level by the team enough that you wouldn't be able to feed Mia enough crap that her performance was on par with the rest of the team.

"Even Soren and Ilyana"? Can Soren have 3 unique weapons and leapfrog up in levels? Can Ilyana?

The bolded part is laughable. When have you ever given anyone else a break?

No, the reason I did the playthrough was just to verify for myself what her performance is, since people were saying that she was terrible and that didn't jive with my experience. What I found in my playthrough was not that Mia was "good", but that the people participating in the tier list were apparently not using BEXP.

The scientists working for the tobacco companies are hired to "verify the effects of tobacco", but that doesn't change anything. You can say this all you want, but it won't change reality.

I mean, when I have an army that's largely ORKO'ing and never dying, curbstomping entire chapters from one end to the other, with Mia (an average unit) still able to participate herself, and having enough BEXP left over such that I could have added some ADDITIONAL unit -- perhaps even a scrub like Rolf -- sorry, that suggests that people have been Doing It Wrong<tm>.

You had 2 units that were hilariously underlevel'd and weren't using max deployment. Mist was level 6, so not even your whole team was fully pump'd, since as has been shown Mist can be a just as capable combat unit as anyone else.

I am not going to get into further details here. My arguments are already collected and archived on the FE9 list, you've clearly made up your mind regarding what portions of reality that you're willing to accept, and there's a limit to how many keystrokes that I'm going to waste on someone who doesn't argue in good faith.

I fucking lol'd.

You are terrible at analogies, and this is no exception, since I'm not an organization (I'm a person), I'm not being paid to do research (playing FE costs me time), and nothing about the results impact my bottom line in one way or another.

Organization = People arguing Mia up

Bottom line = Esteem with other debaters (compare how you are looked upon compared to someone like Grandjackal)

But I see where you were going with it, even though your attempt was a hamfisted failure. You're suggesting that because I have a conflict of interest, I can't be expected to be unbiased. The problem here is that nowhere have you established that I have a conflict of interest, you just take it for granted that it's obvious, never mind that I don't even have stated positions on FE9 Mia's placement prior. But you don't have to believe me. Red Fox doesn't have a dog in the race either, and furthermore has no reason to agree with me on anything but the merits.

Red Fox fucking worships you just like the rest of FEG.

You know, I thought that you'd get over this after the deal with the 3-6 Savior clear, when I gave you exact coordinates for the strategy, making your skepticism look petty and ridiculous.

Yeah just like your 1-3 strat which ended up being even more tedious than doing it normally, or your 3-13 strat which was absurd, or your Part 3 GM Gold crap, or Nephinel which was proven mathematically impossible, never mind little shit like Astrid w/Silencer.

You don't have to be wrong all the time for me to distrust you. Just usually.

1) My argument is not the same as Snowy's.

MIA GETS WRATH VAGUE KATTI SONIC SWORD AND ALL THIS BEXP. MAN LOOK HOW GOOD SHE IS IN THIS TINY TEAM. EVERYONE ELSE: SUCK A DICK.

2) Snowy never proved what he was asserting.

No, Snowy just has inferir social skills.

I gave enough information to reproduce what I did, especially in follow-up posts to answer queries, and even went through the trouble of Fixed mode so that PE wasn't a factor. Side effect of that: it means that people can get the same results that I did. I even did it twice. Go buy a GC memory card and try it yourself.

The difference between you and I is that you use a team of god tiers + some shit unit, feed the shit unit resources and pretend it didn't prevent you from using a different non-god tier if you wanted to. Why? I don't know, but it's quite annoying.

See what about 1-3? I told smash what I did, and even improved it the second and third times.

Yeah, and I just did it yesterday and it wasn't as good as my best result going down the left side since the only people to escape were Micaiah/Sothe/Edward/Nolan (plus Sothe practically solo'd the chapter), whereas going down the left side I finished it in the same number of turns and everyone escaped. Also units who weren't Sothe got EXP, which is also nice.

Smash did it several times and it never worked as good as you claimed, just like how I tried to Nephinel several times and it never worked.

See what about 3-13? Your theorycraft objections were shot down.

What theorycraft? Leo was facing crit from hawks, and there was the potential to run out of ballista bolts since there are 6 hawks and only 5 shots. Never mind that, again, it's another example of your "my way or the highway" arguments where if we aren't playing like you say we are, then we get flamed.

See what about GM gold problems? Click the link in my sig and tell me what's inaccurate.

Mia's sword costs 120g per use. She doubles everything and Adepts 50% of the time. One attack per player phase and one counter per enemy phase. The strategy purported in the tier list is that Ike/Mia run ahead and the rest of the team is playing cleanup, I can grab the quote if you want, and unless Ike has Provoke she's taking more attacks than that.

That's about 4-5 attacks per turn, which is 480-600g. Let's say a GM chapter averages 7 turns, so that's 9 chapters after her forges show up.

600*7*9=37800 gold.

The GMs, by your numbers, get 53000 gold, plus up to 50000 from the DB. However, at least 20000 of that only shows up in 3-11, so we have 33000+whatever Ilyana can carry.

Hey other units, sorry you can't have weapons, Mia is using all of it, just like she's using up the good skills and Ike support. Keep in mind that a lot of this gold (White Gem/Statue Frag) comes after the Silver Card is available, so don't even think about trying to hand wave that. Additionally, you're suggesting we sell stat boosters, which means that in order to fund this crap we're making BEXPing even more pointless.

We get more in part 4, but I'm only talking about her Part 3 performance, since everyone already knows you can buy whatever the fuck you want in Part 4 and that was never something I was debating.

That's because you are operating under the mistaken assumption that it's about correctness of the arguments in this case. When someone opens up posts with a distorted version of a post from 2008, you're not talking about the merits of arguments anymore, you're talking about grudges and people with axes to grind.

Paperblade accidentally tipped his hand near the end of his post and gave away the real reason he does what he does, if you didn't notice.

4e

[CATS]

I'm going to point out right here that a forged Wing Spear is seriously clutch for earlygame, making a huge impact on turn counts and safety. When Xane shows up... a forged Wing Spear isn't even OHKOing some things anymore, and the army has grown to the point where they have fewer problems dealing with such enemies (Ridersbane, Hammer, Poleax, people who can double, etc).

So if I forge a sweet WS for Xane, it costs the same amount but I also get way less out of it. I think you'd agree that's problematic for him.

You might get less out of it, and that would be reflected in a debate by explaining how and why he's less useful with it. That doesn't mean that in a debate, you should assume that other units get more resources than Chainey does.

This might blow your mind, but I wasn't actually talking to you right there.

wtf? You quoted things I said in response to dondon. Should I respond to the points you tried to make there by just saying that I wasn't addressing you?

[Narga_Rocks]

You weren't using Makalov, Jill, or Marcia. I would imagine this is because using them would have lowered the average level by the team enough that you wouldn't be able to feed Mia enough crap that her performance was on par with the rest of the team.

He did two playthroughs. Check the second one.

You had 2 units that were hilariously underlevel'd and weren't using max deployment. Mist was level 6, so not even your whole team was fully pump'd, since as has been shown Mist can be a just as capable combat unit as anyone else.

a: you have two healers. You could make them combat units, or just let them do a job. There is a task for everyone, what's the issue with leaving the healers to simply heal?

b: if the game made the deployment 18 per chapter, would you seriously argue that someone wasn't playing properly if they only raise 14? Stating that he wasn't using max deployment as if this is a problem with his playthough is questionable.

Red Fox fucking worships you just like the rest of FEG.

Okay. please show me where she dropped Reyson and Sothe because Interceptor wants them both to drop. Oh, you can't?

Yeah just like your 1-3 strat which ended up being even more tedious than doing it normally, or your 3-13 strat which was absurd, or your Part 3 GM Gold crap, or Nephinel which was proven mathematically impossible, never mind little shit like Astrid w/Silencer.

Yeah, and I just did it yesterday and it wasn't as good as my best result going down the left side since the only people to escape were Micaiah/Sothe/Edward/Nolan (plus Sothe practically solo'd the chapter), whereas going down the left side I finished it in the same number of turns and everyone escaped. Also units who weren't Sothe got EXP, which is also nice.

Did you follow the guidelines interceptor layed out for it here? If not, then I'd suggest you aren't using his strategy. If you are, then all this would prove about 1-3 is that your way can get a little more bexp and give more exp to some units. That doesn't prove it doesn't work, nor would it disprove that some people may find the right side easier than the left. I'm not sure what the original point of his 1-3 thing was, but I'm sure simplicity was one of them. Just because you don't find it easier doesn't mean nobody else does.

As for 3-13, where are these 6 of which you speak? 3 at the start, 3 along the way as reinforcements. And yet they don't all stay on one side, so your 5 use for 6 hawks is wrong. Unless for you the hawks always fly off to one side, that is. And how has Nephinel been proven mathematically impossible? There are enough enemies in 2-1 and 2-2. The question should be: how much does it take in 2-1 and 2-2 combined to pull it off. Except here's the kicker, that isn't even the point. You can get her up to level 15 or 16 easily, and then she'll still be quite good in 2-E and between 2-E and some time in part 3 you can promote her and she'll still be great. Since the original point of bringing it up was to suggest that she can contribute more in NM than Aran, whether or not she actually hits tier 3 before 2-E starts is irrelevant.

MIA GETS WRATH VAGUE KATTI SONIC SWORD AND ALL THIS BEXP. MAN LOOK HOW GOOD SHE IS IN THIS TINY TEAM. EVERYONE ELSE: SUCK A DICK.

I'd like you to note that the bexp is largely irrelevant unless you want to exclusively use units below upper mid, and that she was pushed above Stefan by Cynthia without actually assuming Mia gets the Vague Katti and the Sonic Sword. So your point, as usual, is null.

Smash did it several times and it never worked as good as you claimed, just like how I tried to Nephinel several times and it never worked.

So you suggesting he's lying, or that you, I don't know, do things differently?

What theorycraft? Leo was facing crit from hawks, and there was the potential to run out of ballista bolts since there are 6 hawks and only 5 shots. Never mind that, again, it's another example of your "my way or the highway" arguments where if we aren't playing like you say we are, then we get flamed.

What do you want, videos? As near as I can tell you and smash are the only ones that go into things assuming Int's way won't work. Ever consider you might just be doing something different than he is?

Mia's sword costs 120g per use. She doubles everything and Adepts 50% of the time. One attack per player phase and one counter per enemy phase. The strategy purported in the tier list is that Ike/Mia run ahead and the rest of the team is playing cleanup, I can grab the quote if you want, and unless Ike has Provoke she's taking more attacks than that.

Well, I for one have never had her use the forge only. I tend to swap between the forge and the Steel Blade and have never broken her forge in part 3. Gave it to Mist in part 4 a bit just because I like her and was getting near the end of her second Florete. Steel Blade still gives ~60% KO chances if she has Adept, it just reduces her chance of avoiding attacks on enemy phase due to Vantage + crit.

Rest of your points there assume constant forge usage.

Anything I left I'm assuming Interceptor will counter. If he doesn't, I still don't feel bad about not countering it since the rest doesn't really matter to me.

Also, one of the advantages of Mia + Ike is that when things attack Ike's support partner it is Mia instead of dudes like Soren and Oscar the 3hitnodouble. So he's clearly not assuming provoke on Ike in order to avoid Mia attacking all the time. By the way, it's also part of the reason Mia can promote by mid 3-11 rather than late 3-E or early 4-1 like some other people do.

(edit for clarity: The enemy attacks Mia more often than Ike since she has lower concrete durability and lower guaranteed damage. Or possibly just since she's a lower level. Whatever of the 3 reasons it is, the enemies will attack her more often than Ike. Things will die or nearly die, and your other units get free kills building lots of exp for them and Mia at the same time. And thanks to Mia getting attacked so much, her level gets pretty good.)

wtf? You quoted things I said in response to dondon. Should I respond to the points you tried to make there by just saying that I wasn't addressing you?

"right there". He quoted:

Did you just downplay having a second Sedgar? That's crazy. Having two of pretty much the best unit > having one of them. If Chainey exists on the map for four turns as Sedgar then he's already way better than someone like Navarre even if they get to have five or six turns of use because of how much better Sedgar's stats are than Navarre as anything.

Do you remember saying that? Hope not, since that was Inui, and that was the thing to which Int was responding right there.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.

Will all of you shut up? In the past 2 pages, there has been almost nothing about Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword. You want to argue about FE9, FE10 or FEDS? Wouldn't it be better to do it on the corresponding board?

I know I'm new to this specific community but honestly. This is just stupid at this point.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[CATS]

I would've said that already, but a second tier list topic has already been made. FE7 discussion should be in the new topic imo.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.

Will all of you shut up? In the past 2 pages, there has been almost nothing about Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword. You want to argue about FE9, FE10 or FEDS? Wouldn't it be better to do it on the corresponding board?

I know I'm new to this specific community but honestly. This is just stupid at this point.

Ehh, it happens when certain people constantly bring up old wounds. Honestly Paperblade, Nephinel? What the heck? That was like 2 years ago. What does it even matter? Anyway, when someone's judgment is questioned, do you expect them to just sit back and take it? I agree that this topic should focus on FE BS, but that's not going to happen as long as CATS wants to talk about Int shooting down his Chainey obsession, or Paperblade wants to complain about how the people running the tier lists disagree with his stance on Mia and the GM's money "woes".

I would've said that already, but a second tier list topic has already been made. FE7 discussion should be in the new topic imo.

you make a valid point

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

Obsession? I just don't want Chainey in lower mid below units who clearly have little to no positive net utility earlier in the game and will have much worse stats than Chainey after he joins. Despite the fact that Interceptor repeatedly explains why Chainey is worse than top tiers, I'm not trying to argue Chainey into top or even high tier. And I brought this issue up mainly as evidence in support of what other people were already saying. Look at what Interceptor did here; he shifted focus to availability and started talking about how Navarre is useful before Chainey joins, completely aside from my main point. I don't seriously think my arguments will have an effect anymore nor do I really care what the tier list on FEG says.

Let's just have Chainey copy Barst.

15/6 Cav -> Paladin Navarre: 14.95 Str, 12.95 Spd----38.6 Hp, 13.4 Def

Chainey copying 15/6 Fighter -> Hero Barst: 16.8 Str, 19.6 Spd----38.6 Hp, 12.8 Def, axes

Maybe Navarre is more useful on turn 2 and turn 6 or 7 because Chainey is behind due to having to transform, but Chainey will clearly outperform Navarre on the other turns of the chapter. I don't see how this match-up results in a tier gap in Navarre's favor. The problem here was that this was shot down with arguments such as availability or Chainey hogging Exp or forges, which aren't relevant to my point (unless you think Navarre should get a forge and Chainey shouldn't) and not even close to being true/valid in the case of Exp hogging.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Inui]

Before I say anything, do you or do not you not understand/believe that a second Sedgar is not giving you are much utility as the first one?

I believe a second Sedgar is giving you more utility than anything but the first Sedgar, which means Chainey is too low for sure since he can be that second Sedgar. Or another healer or flier or whatever.

[Rodykitty]

What the fizzeck @ revived Chainey argument?

[Narga_Rocks]

Obsession? I just don't want Chainey in lower mid below units who clearly have little to no positive net utility earlier in the game and will have much worse stats than Chainey after he joins. Despite the fact that Interceptor repeatedly explains why Chainey is worse than top tiers, I'm not trying to argue Chainey into top or even high tier. And I brought this issue up mainly as evidence in support of what other people were already saying. Look at what Interceptor did here; he shifted focus to availability and started talking about how Navarre is useful before Chainey joins, completely aside from my main point. I don't seriously think my arguments will have an effect anymore nor do I really care what the tier list on FEG says.

Let's just have Chainey copy Barst.

15/6 Cav -> Paladin Navarre: 14.95 Str, 12.95 Spd----38.6 Hp, 13.4 Def

Chainey copying 15/6 Fighter -> Hero Barst: 16.8 Str, 19.6 Spd----38.6 Hp, 12.8 Def, axes

Maybe Navarre is more useful on turn 2 and turn 6 or 7 because Chainey is behind due to having to transform, but Chainey will clearly outperform Navarre on the other turns of the chapter. I don't see how this match-up results in a tier gap in Navarre's favor. The problem here was that this was shot down with arguments such as availability or Chainey hogging Exp or forges, which aren't relevant to my point (unless you think Navarre should get a forge and Chainey shouldn't) and not even close to being true/valid in the case of Exp hogging.

The big difficulty here is finding out the value of two things:

availability on the mid tiers

how much is a second *** actually worth

Also, the team set up matters, since it is easily possible for a sword swinging unit that has wyrmslayer if you don't have other good sword swinging units to be better than Chainey copying Barst since you already have a Barst. But if you have like 4 units that are currently using wyrmslayer... One of the points for the other units is that you can build a team that has something of everything and they can all be really good in their role. With Chainey, he's just a second something.

Anyway, you could go onto feg and focus on the things that haven't been shut down. The fact that you allowed Interceptor to focus discussion on things that hurt Chainey while you were incapable of showing (to most) that those things didn't hurt Chainey rather than focusing on Chainey's wins isn't really Int's problem. If it's been shown how Chainey can't get much utility out of grabbing a Wing Spear forge or a Hammer forge then show how good he is simply copying and explain what he is adding to the team despite having a Barst already. Or heck, Int's pointed out that Caeda no longer OHKOs everything it is effective on with her super forge anyway, so you can probably reduce the cost of the forge itself by making just enough +mt that Chainey can 2HKO everything. It still needs to be shown how having a second unit able to do this actually matters. Like, pointing out specific chapters in which two flying death-of-mounted/armored-units gods is actually helpful. One of the main points against Chainey was questioning the need for a second ****, and I don't remember much in the way of defending that.

Constantly saying/implying that Chainey is just as deserving of an epic wing spear forge as Shiida is not helpful to your goal of getting Chainey above units you think he belongs above.

As near as I can tell, anyway, this:

Why is it acceptable to give a massively expensive forge to Shiida, but if it costs 5000+ gold to give the same weapon to Chainey, suddenly it's not ok anymore?

basically just says that whatever Shiida gets, Chainey is allowed to get. Which is a mindset that a lot of people have moved away from since there is no reason to be so Communist about resources. Those two units are in completely different situations, so anything that is reasonable on one unit is not necessarily reasonable on the other. Hence our focus on Opportunity Cost and Economic Profit and various things like that. And allowing Interceptor to focus the conversation on an argument that will not help Chainey is obviously going to prevent Chainey from rising.

I believe a second Sedgar is giving you more utility than anything but the first Sedgar, which means Chainey is too low for sure since he can be that second Sedgar. Or another healer or flier or whatever.

And you want him to stop calling you Horio.

Have you ever even heard of the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns? Or do you just not think it applies very strongly here?

(edit: also are you taking into account transformation time and needing healers? Or do you just think that those issues take away so little from the overall utility that he's still better than anybody but Sedgar himself?)

What the fizzeck @ revived Chainey argument?

Some people just don't give up, and CATS apparently doesn't want to talk about it on FEG anymore.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Rodykitty]

Some people just don't give up, and CATS apparently doesn't want to talk about it on FEG anymore.

So it seems.

[CATS]

The big difficulty here is finding out the value of two things:

availability on the mid tiers

My argument is assuming that they have little to no net positive utility, since units in mid tier have like 20 units above them and small teams are favored for FE11. Navarre obviously isn't any if significantly better than your alternatives until Chainey joins. If he were, that's a totally different argument and Chainey being at least in his tier wouldn't be as clear, but I don't see how that's the case.

how much is a second *** actually worth

How is the fact that he's a second Barst relevant to his actual stats? I don't see why you would penalize him for copying a unit you already have. If Units A and B are identical and invincible and one-round everything, while Unit C has a different class and portrait from the first two but 2RKOs and is 3RKO'd, then you'd use Units A and B both over Unit C regardless of how similar they are to each other.

Also, the team set up matters, since it is easily possible for a sword swinging unit that has wyrmslayer if you don't have other good sword swinging units to be better than Chainey copying Barst since you already have a Barst. But if you have like 4 units that are currently using wyrmslayer... One of the points for the other units is that you can build a team that has something of everything and they can all be really good in their role. With Chainey, he's just a second something.

There are certainly other units besides Navarre who can use a wyrmslayer. If he were the only one who could use one, that would be one thing, but that isn't the case. Neither one is distinctive; if you don't use Navarre, there are plenty of other units who can do the same things he does which you could replace him with, just like how there's obviously other units who can do the same things Chainey is.

Anyway, you could go onto feg and focus on the things that haven't been shut down. The fact that you allowed Interceptor to focus discussion on things that hurt Chainey while you were incapable of showing (to most) that those things didn't hurt Chainey rather than focusing on Chainey's wins isn't really Int's problem. If it's been shown how Chainey can't get much utility out of grabbing a Wing Spear forge or a Hammer forge then show how good he is simply copying and explain what he is adding to the team despite having a Barst already.

Chainey's win is obvious. He copies top tiers and has much better stats than the mid tier units that are above him. How much explaining should that really need? What's important is that he does have a significant advantage over someone like Navarre.

Or heck, Int's pointed out that Caeda no longer OHKOs everything it is effective on with her super forge anyway, so you can probably reduce the cost of the forge itself by making just enough +mt that Chainey can 2HKO everything.

I actually did mention this on FEG.

It still needs to be shown how having a second unit able to do this actually matters. Like, pointing out specific chapters in which two flying death-of-mounted/armored-units gods is actually helpful. One of the main points against Chainey was questioning the need for a second ****, and I don't remember much in the way of defending that.

Why is there a need for Navarre, then? He also brings nothing to the table which other units wouldn't be able to do just as well if not better. If I thought Chainey was being just as helpful as Shiida during certain chapters then I probably would've pushed for high tier at the least; rather, I just think it's absurd to place him below mediocre units because he "isn't needed" when those mid tier units obviously aren't at all needed either.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Interceptor]

You weren't using Makalov, Jill, or Marcia.

Not in the first run, but I swapped out some guys and used them in the second run, which also included Mia. You do remember that I played twice, right? The second shot was to play more efficiently than the first, as well as look at what it would take to turn Mist into a good combatant by Ch18. It may not have included Makalov, but I am pretty confident that he would win in shared chapters if I used him.

But this is a tangent. The point I was making there is that I wasn't out to prove that Mia was "good", because she's clearly not as good as any of the people that I listed. As I said, the proof was a failure if that was the case, since Mia is clearly one of the worst units that's being deployed, despite having useful performance.

I would imagine this is because using them would have lowered the average level by the team enough that you wouldn't be able to feed Mia enough crap that her performance was on par with the rest of the team.

I guess you've conveniently forgotten that I was essentially walking around with enough BEXP to raise any other character that I wanted (almost, Rolf was too scrubby). Remember how at the start of Ch18, I could take a base level Nephenee a few EXP shy of promotion, and that she could ORKO a lot of the map with a forge? That's pretty good, I think, and one of the reasons why I re-did things again, since there was obviously plenty of play room.

"Even Soren and Ilyana"? Can Soren have 3 unique weapons and leapfrog up in levels? Can Ilyana?

I definitely would give them enough BEXP so that they could double reliably, and a Thunder forge for reach. That's exactly what I did in both playthroughs, since that's how you make those guys useful. I don't know what special weapons you are referring to, but the higher-level magics they basically have a lock on whatever they want.

The bolded part is laughable. When have you ever given anyone else a break?

This is a pretty lame comment from you. Not only is it small, but I wasn't even serious, I was just accentuating my point that Mia is only beating a handful of people, if that.

The scientists working for the tobacco companies are hired to "verify the effects of tobacco", but that doesn't change anything. You can say this all you want, but it won't change reality.

There is basically nothing that I can say in response to this, since your Reality Distortion Field doesn't let anything through that might be devastating to your case. I gave you my explanation, I supported it with an obvious argument: your assertion that I set out to prove Mia "good" doesn't hold water, when I show that it proved her worse than good people.

You're just basically saying here that you won't accept anything at all. Nothing that I say about myself is true if it contradicts something that you believe, anyone who says something in support is obviously one of my minions... I can't even discuss anything with someone like you.

You had 2 units that were hilariously underlevel'd and weren't using max deployment. Mist was level 6, so not even your whole team was fully pump'd, since as has been shown Mist can be a just as capable combat unit as anyone else.

Max deployment is not really the optimal deployment. Mist and Rhys were underleveled because I was going so fast that they couldn't get any healing done (this is an important point, son: I was curbstomping the game). I will freely admit that Mist is an option, which is why I played twice, but she gains very little from BEXP until she promotes, and little from promotion until she can take Manith's sword in Ch18. At which point the game is halfway over, and I've gotten the equivalent of a lategame healer/combatant that spent earlygame healing.

Rhys though, not really a great BEXP candidate in any circumstance. You know that, so I don't know why you brought it up. Oh, right, because you don't care about the merits, just about trashing me.

Red Fox fucking worships you just like the rest of FEG.

This is silly, and just goes to show how far gone from reality you are on this subject. Your accusation here is guaranteed to be news for all of the people that you just mentioned. I'll keep it in mind that Red Fox is "worshiping" me the next time that I get a left-handed compliment from her.

Yeah just like your 1-3 strat which ended up being even more tedious than doing it normally, or your 3-13 strat which was absurd, or your Part 3 GM Gold crap, or Nephinel which was proven mathematically impossible, never mind little shit like Astrid w/Silencer.

Oh good lord. You are collecting grievances like merit badges.

- The 1-3 strat is safer than doing it normally because most people's HIT are bad.

- I can't counter "absurd" for 3-13. It works as a strategy, and that should be enough. Saves you from training the DB if you don't want to.

- the Part 3 GM gold issue is a non-issue, and saying "crap" does not change that.

- nothing wrong with Astrid using a Silencer. It's hard to make her any good, Silencer has good mt.

MIA GETS WRATH VAGUE KATTI SONIC SWORD AND ALL THIS BEXP. MAN LOOK HOW GOOD SHE IS IN THIS TINY TEAM. EVERYONE ELSE: SUCK A DICK.

Like I said, my argument is not Snowy's. Well, that argument is not Snowy's either, but accuracy in paraphrasing someone's argument is not a strong point of yours.

The difference between you and I is that you use a team of god tiers + some shit unit, feed the shit unit resources and pretend it didn't prevent you from using a different non-god tier if you wanted to. Why? I don't know, but it's quite annoying.

That's actually the difference between you and an efficient playthrough, not the difference between you and I. Interceptor, the man behind the avatar, does not play like a tier player, because efficient play does get tedious after you've already done it. He likes to favor certain characters for no good reason (like FE10 Mist), or play with artificial restrictions to make things more interesting. This is another problem with you: you appear to be unable to tell the difference between what I do as a player, and what I argue for a tier list.

Regarding the tier list part, putting a unit on an awesome team is generally how you play that unit efficiently. Putting a bunch of crappy units together would be... less efficient. Efficient tier lists, the way they work around here, is to assume that setup. In FE9, this has the effect of making Mia halfway decent, because of BEXP.

Now, I understand that you want to turn tier lists into a psychology experiment where units are ranked by how they do in an "average" playthrough that has various crappy units sprinkled around and a tier player that can goof up or some shit. I also understand that smash and Vykan think that this is a good idea.

So please go do that. I am serious. Make your own list, with your own rules of the road. My hope is that it will keep you from slandering me in every thread that tangentially touches some hot-button issue that's near and dear to your heart.

Yeah, and I just did it yesterday and it wasn't as good as my best result going down the left side since the only people to escape were Micaiah/Sothe/Edward/Nolan (plus Sothe practically solo'd the chapter), whereas going down the left side I finished it in the same number of turns and everyone escaped. Also units who weren't Sothe got EXP, which is also nice.

Smash did it several times and it never worked as good as you claimed, just like how I tried to Nephinel several times and it never worked.

The point of 1-3 is that it's safer, not that it's faster. You cut off the ability of reinforcements to peg you in, and a goof with someone's hilariously low HIT doesn't cause resets nearly as often, because Sothe is highly accurate and can take a licking. Plus, it allows an easier use of Kurth, the tank machine. Sure, if most things go your way, the west side is just fine, but I personally don't like it.

WRT Nephinel... I have nothing to say that I haven't already. Everyone except you and smash can make it work, so I can only assume you're not even bothering to try. There's a shitload of BEXP at stake, and even if you whiff the 2-3 max and Nephenee comes to 2-E underleveled because you played quickly, you can still use the BEXP intelligently, and make her pretty powerful for Part 3.

What theorycraft? Leo was facing crit from hawks, and there was the potential to run out of ballista bolts since there are 6 hawks and only 5 shots.

There are two ballistas with 5 shots each, and NPCs won't shoot unless you let them, so that's ten. Leo doesn't face crit from hawks unless you let him, his LCK growth is good and you have countermeasures.

Never mind that, again, it's another example of your "my way or the highway" arguments where if we aren't playing like you say we are, then we get flamed.

When it comes to a tier list, I think it's fair game to argue Easy Button for non-DB units. I personally don't do it very often when I play, because I like training the Dawn Brigade, so I don't care if you do it either. If you can think of something BETTER for the tier list, have at it, but I have a feeling your idea of "better" is actually just less efficient.

Mia's sword costs 120g per use. She doubles everything and Adepts 50% of the time. One attack per player phase and one counter per enemy phase. The strategy purported in the tier list is that Ike/Mia run ahead and the rest of the team is playing cleanup, I can grab the quote if you want, and unless Ike has Provoke she's taking more attacks than that.

Ike/Mia running ahead alone is mostly a Part 4 strategy, since Mia can actually keep up with Ike offensively (to some extent, anyway). Aside from some exceptional situations, in Part 3 when they are still building support etc they are still part of the army, why wouldn't they be? Obviously they are not duoing the maps, other people need to be trained. It's a fine idea to have she and Ike weakening things for clean-up characters if you want, but that's something you would do with a Steel Blade, to make sure that things are left alive more often. There is no call to take an expensive forge and use it wastefully in every situation just because you don't want her to have it.

That's about 4-5 attacks per turn, which is 480-600g. Let's say a GM chapter averages 7 turns, so that's 9 chapters after her forges show up.

This is ridiculous math. Not only did you take the high end, but Mia would die if she faced so much action, and if she didn't die she'd be like an insta-Trueblade just from all of the kills she's taking. She does this kind of stuff in Part 4, but that's when her STR is just dandy anyway and her avoid is ridiculous.

You have never done this, obviously. Either you've never used Mia seriously, or you've always sealed her power level when you do use her. Mia is highly effective with Adept, or with an Ike support, or with a forge, and this is not "effective in a void", this is "effective relative to the gains I'd get with other people". Meaning, the cost is there, but it pays off in performance. This does make her a good unit (a for reals good unit, not like FE9 Mia, who is average at best).

I can understand disagreement on this point, either substantively or philosophically, but please don't make up these ridiculous situations, take them to their ultimate absurdity, and pretend that you've countered something.

4e

You might get less out of it, and that would be reflected in a debate by explaining how and why he's less useful with it. That doesn't mean that in a debate, you should assume that other units get more resources than Chainey does.

I did both of those things. You just chose to interpret it as me denying him forges, mostly because I came to the conclusion that saddling him with them can in some cases make him worse than he is without them, in terms of cost.

wtf? You quoted things I said in response to dondon. Should I respond to the points you tried to make there by just saying that I wasn't addressing you?

You actually responded to a quote of mine. Serious, go look.

[Inui]

Have you ever even heard of the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns? Or do you just not think it applies very strongly here?

(edit: also are you taking into account transformation time and needing healers? Or do you just think that those issues take away so little from the overall utility that he's still better than anybody but Sedgar himself?)

It doesn't apply here very much. Sedgar is pretty much the best unit. If Chainey needs to spend a turn to become Sedgar three times in a chapter, he's still better than everyone but the original Sedgar because being Sedgar for a few turns means he's being very good. Are you saying you can have too many god tiers in FE? It's not a benefit to have some other invincible unit or unit that can't die? I hope you don't think way.

What Chainey provides isn't god tier by any means due to him needing a turn to transform and sometimes needing a healer afterward (not always, since turning into General Sedgar/Wolf usually means he's invincible), but it's certainly above mid tier and units like Navarre that never really provide much worth.

[Rodykitty]

but it's certainly above mid tier and units like Navarre that never really provide much worth.

I don't know. Having an existing early game, a weapon level with purpose, and post-promotion Sniper sounds like having actual worth to me.

[CATS]

I did both of those things. You just chose to interpret it as me denying him forges, mostly because I came to the conclusion that saddling him with them can in some cases make him worse than he is without them, in terms of cost.

How is it not denying him forges if you're......not giving him forges? What?

Cost is irrelevant. If you spend 10000G on Unit A, it's blatant favoritism to deny other units a similar amount of resources when doing comparisons. If the 10000G makes Unit A go from a 5 to a 20 while Unit B would only go from a 5 to a 10, that's cool, but it's still favoritism to keep Unit B without the money and at a 5 for purposes of comparison. There's also the fact that these weapons aren't Prf. If you had to assign the weapon to a certain unit who would be the only unit able to wield it after the forging, that would be one thing, but that's not the case. It's odd to say that a hammer is forged "for Barst" when Chainey can use it just as well as Barst can at the same cost.

[CATS]

I don't know. Having an existing early game, a weapon level with purpose, and post-promotion Sniper sounds like having actual worth to me.

Because Chainey can't copy someone with a high sword rank or a Sniper.

[Interceptor]

How is it not denying him forges if you're......not giving him forges? What?

It means that I know that he can take forges, but recognize that giving them to him may leave him worse off due to the cost. I can give Myrmidon Cain a +10 Killing Edge, but I'm pretty sure that's a dumb idea so I am not going to do it for the purposes of his comparison, since it would make him worse than he already is now.

favoritism

Second time: favoritism is part of efficient play.

It's odd to say that a hammer is forged "for Barst" when Chainey can use it just as well as Barst can at the same cost.

I'm not going to stop using Barst, who doesn't stop being able to OHKO with the Hammer.

Because Chainey can't copy someone with a high sword rank or a Sniper.

So what's your plan for getting two Parthias?

[Rodykitty]

Because Chainey can't copy someone with a high sword rank or a Sniper.

I am responding to the claim that Navarre doesn't have much worth, but he has qualities that give him enough of a use during his early game period to have usefulness that, ultimately, Chainey cannot copy.

On favortism, even if you equalize the forges, Chainey will do less with his forge than Barts will, so we can conclude that giving Chainey a forge is not the best idea.

[Colonel M]

Hey guys guess what?

Chainey isn't in this game. STOP!

[CATS]

I would've said that already, but a second tier list topic has already been made. FE7 discussion should be in the new topic imo.

Favoritism might be part of "efficient play." That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be assumed for purposes of comparison. Yes, you have to allocate a resource to the unit who will get the most benefit out of it while actually playing the game. What you don't see is that the rest of your team lost out on using that resource and the opportunity cost must be accounted for. If it's assumed that one unit receives the resource at no cost while the other unit gets no use of it whatsoever, then you are eliminating opportunity cost from the equation.

I am responding to the claim that Navarre doesn't have much worth, but he has qualities that give him enough of a use during his early game period to have usefulness that, ultimately, Chainey cannot copy.

How does he have worth? He's worse than the alternatives. Unless the tier list is lying about the however many units are placed above him?

I agree that if he had significnat use earlier in the game it would be a more difficult case for Chainey, but I don't see how that's the case.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Paperblade]

I was going to respond to Int here, but after a short talk on IRC, I've decided that I'm done with tier lists on both SF and FEG. I'll leave something I posted to Red Fox on FEFF on the subject of Int/Narga:

Note that SF/FEG's FE9/10 lists are both very stagnant compared to games that have been discussed for much longer. While that could be attributed to the fact that many people have not played the game, there was previously no shortage of discussion, but many people simply stopped posting in it.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Paperblade

[Interceptor]

Favoritism might be part of "efficient play." That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be assumed for purposes of comparison. Yes, you have to allocate a resource to the unit who will get the most benefit out of it while actually playing the game. What you don't see is that the rest of your team lost out on using that resource and the opportunity cost must be accounted for. If it's assumed that one unit receives the resource at no cost while the other unit gets no use of it whatsoever, then you are eliminating opportunity cost from the equation.

OK, but an efficiency tier list measures efficient play. I'm not advocating ignoring cost for something, but it's not always an easy yarnball to unravel. Caeda's Wing Spear costs a shitload of money, but she's also the only one who can do what she does, and it's seriously useful. You can't argue when comparing Xane to Caeda (yes, I know she stomps him, it's not the point) that Xane gets something of equal gold value when he shows up. The cost of a forge slot is negligible for him, but the impact of the gold might be different at his jointime, and the other side of the equation -- what he gets out of the forge in terms of gains for the army -- is definitely goign to be less than what Caeda did.

I am all for equalizing these things where it's possible to do so. I don't see how flat-out giving Xane something gold-equal to something that someone got 10-15 chapters ago is actually equal in terms of real cost.

[Inui]

I don't know. Having an existing early game, a weapon level with purpose, and post-promotion Sniper sounds like having actual worth to me.

Chainey can copy whatever weapon levels and classes he wants. Sniper? Chainey can turn into someone like Barst, Cord, Oguma, Sedgar, Wolf, Marric, etc. and be significantly better than Navarre as anything.