Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[-Cynthia-]

I already brought it up a while ago. It was decided that we're taking max turns even in an efficient playthrough as the extra EXP helps later on. If you want any leeway on that you'll have to present info that says otherwise.

Who decided? And there's no "info" here, we all know what completing 2-E shorter gives us as opposed to taking longer.

It's situations like these that make me question the definition of an "efficient" runthrough. If we're trying to go for max CEXP, then we'll probably miss out on BEXP in some cases (turn counts, 2-3 etc.) I was under the impression that efficient meant maximixing BEXP while keeping the turn count as low as possible.

Of course if we're maximixing CEXP, then things like the houses in 3-9 are relatively unimportant. If we don't care about 2-3's BEXP, then we shouldn't care about 3-9's either. If we're maximixing CEXP, we're pretty much just Routing every map as much as possible while giving no regard to turn count.

Red Fox can decide what she wants here, as it's her rating topic, but these are pretty important issues for tier lists.

[nflchamp]

I already brought it up a while ago. It was decided that we're taking max turns even in an efficient playthrough as the extra EXP helps later on. If you want any leeway on that you'll have to present info that says otherwise.

Who decided? And there's no "info" here, we all know what completing 2-E shorter gives us as opposed to taking longer.

It's situations like these that make me question the definition of an "efficient" runthrough. If we're trying to go for max CEXP, then we'll probably miss out on BEXP in some cases (turn counts, 2-3 etc.) I was under the impression that efficient meant maximixing BEXP while keeping the turn count as low as possible.

Of course if we're maximixing CEXP, then things like the houses in 3-9 are relatively unimportant. If we don't care about 2-3's BEXP, then we shouldn't care about 3-9's either. If we're maximixing CEXP, we're pretty much just Routing every map as much as possible while giving no regard to turn count.

Red Fox can decide what she wants here, as it's her rating topic, but these are pretty important issues for tier lists.

First things first, 2-E turn limit was discussed at page 162 in OMG it's a tier list. That was September, so it's a little ways back now. There wasn't any contention about taking the entire time, but it was just before more Mia vs. Gatrie stuff that could have prevented any potential counters from happening.

And I'll give you that we all already know what the differences is ending 2-E quickly and taking our time are. So please utilize that info to show why ending the chapter quickly is a good option that should be considered. That one was partially discussed is smash's playthrough topic where he tried to defend Aran's abilities (starting around here).

About what efficiency is for the purposes here, efficiency is beating the game in as few turns as possible while keeping the difficulty of doing so to a minimum. Note how taking more turns is not necessarily bad under that definition.

[Florete]

About what efficiency is for the purposes here, efficiency is beating the game in as few turns as possible while keeping the difficulty of doing so to a minimum. Note how taking more turns is not necessarily bad under that definition.

That's the idea. Like I said, I didn't mean to sound biased even though I probably did, but how long we take on 2-E is one of those things that will likely just need a decision made in the end since both sides have arguable pros and cons (those links summed it up pretty well. nflchamp practically did my job for me while I was Christmas shopping. Thanks). Since this is my topic, that kind of choice is up to my discretion. It's either "put the foot down" like Narga said or get into an argument that might drop some other characters in the process as well and really belongs in the tier topic more than it does here.

By the way, I lowered both Marcia and Marcia (T) half a point each.

Of course if we're maximixing CEXP, then things like the houses in 3-9 are relatively unimportant. If we don't care about 2-3's BEXP, then we shouldn't care about 3-9's either.

Not really. 2-3's BEXP has an extra cost of little to no CEXP for your fighters, 3-9's BEXP is free in that regard.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Zkirsche]

Juts thought I'd mention that Brom (T) isn't on the list, even though you agreed that he was > Taur in the tier list.

Not really. 2-3's BEXP has an extra cost of little to no CEXP for your fighters, 3-9's BEXP is free in that regard.

Of course, not getting the bexp means less bexp for some of your other fighters, like Nephenee or maybe even Elincia.

3-9's bexp (dousing houses) costs turns, which may cost bexp(from turn count) and/or cexp.

In any case, I stand by my idea that an efficient run is the most bexp and cexp for the team in the most safe possible way.

[Florete]

3-9's bexp (dousing houses) costs turns, which may cost bexp(from turn count) and/or cexp.

There's a bit of difference here. It's possible to get max BEXP on 3-9 while still killing all the enemies, even if it's more difficult (Plus, if you're fast enough, you won't even have to douse many houses. I think I've gotten by with only 2). It's not possible to both kill 2-3's enemies and get their BEXP. One cancels the other out.

[Naglfar]

I already brought it up a while ago. It was decided that we're taking max turns even in an efficient playthrough as the extra EXP helps later on. If you want any leeway on that you'll have to present info that says otherwise.

Who decided? And there's no "info" here, we all know what completing 2-E shorter gives us as opposed to taking longer.

It's situations like these that make me question the definition of an "efficient" runthrough. If we're trying to go for max CEXP, then we'll probably miss out on BEXP in some cases (turn counts, 2-3 etc.) I was under the impression that efficient meant maximixing BEXP while keeping the turn count as low as possible.

Of course if we're maximixing CEXP, then things like the houses in 3-9 are relatively unimportant. If we don't care about 2-3's BEXP, then we shouldn't care about 3-9's either. If we're maximixing CEXP, we're pretty much just Routing every map as much as possible while giving no regard to turn count.

Red Fox can decide what she wants here, as it's her rating topic, but these are pretty important issues for tier lists.

Nobody said anything about sacrificing BEXP. In many cases, that would be unefficient, and therefore you wouldn't do it, would you?

I would assume that in most cases, "maximum turns" refers to finishing the chapter at the turn bonus limit, to maximize both BEXP and CEXP. Obviously chapters that involve leaving enemies alive for BEXP would be handled differently. Those chapters don't raise the question "quick finish or max CEXP", it's "which CEXP/BEXP balance is best" instead. For example, I'm pretty sure it's best overall to take as much BEXP as you can from 2-3, but I'm not going to explain why because that would be going off-topic.

Also, please enlighten me as to what the houses in 3-9 have to do with CEXP besides maybe taking a player phase from one of your units each.

[Victor Fang]

leave time for re-enforcements?

[Bryan]

Post Astrid Pl0x?

Love your ratings! Keep up the good work :D

[Deliriyum]

Post Astrid Pl0x?

After reading some other ratings, I'm afraid of seeing what she has to say about Astrid.....BTW Astrid actually was useful for me earlier in 3-9. I had adept on her, and she had a steel longbow. I attacked an enemy with 59 hit and I needed two hits to kill. Adept activated and both attacks hit. I was quite happy that the RNG was on my side.

[Florete]

Christmas break is over. Back in action.

Astrid

Poor Astrid. Poor, poor Astrid. What did IS do to you? Not only did they nerf you horrendously, they programmed you to love Makalov of all people? On top of it, your in-game portrait looks about as stoned as Vika.

So yeah. Another 2-3 joiner. The worst of them. Her offense and durability are both crap. She's at least not being one rounded, but she won't live long if you let her get attacked, and she'll likely only kill if you weaken for her or if scraps from the enemy phase are left since she doesn't double nor does she do much damage. Her only real chance to do something useful is the occasional Killer Bow crit.

And unfortunately, it really doesn't get better. Even if you give her Paragon and a lot of kills in 3-9, her growths are pretty bad so she won't really go anywhere. She has an affinity no one wants, so she isn't likely to find any good support, and she doesn't cap anything soon enough to use BEXP, though even when she does she still has higher growths (Luck) getting in the way.

If you can manage via Blossom or something and get her there, her caps are actually really good and she can use the awesome Double Bow, but like with Fiona, it just takes too much effort. And she was so good in PoR, too.

0.5/10

Transfer changes:

She can get Strength, Skill, and Speed. It helps, but it doesn't get her out of her massive hole. She can double some enemies in 2-3 now and avoids getting doubled easier, but she still sucks pretty badly. She'll get out of her hole a bit faster if you decide to really train her, but she'll need a lot to get anywhere decent.

1/10

Makalov

Okay, so we have Makalov. He has 75% Speed growth, tied for highest in the game and perfect for getting away from those debt collectors. Now look at his inventory. That Coin is all that's left of his income after gambling the rest away, but luckily he still has some Herb to smoke. And yes, this guild master got shafted just like the other Paladins.

He comes in 2-3 with everyone, and while he's no Astrid, he's no Kieran either. That is to say, he's pretty average. He doubles a fair amount of enemies and can occasionally kill with the right weapon. He only loses to Geoffrey in durability because of 1 point of Defense. He also has strangely high Luck, allowing him to avoid crits from some enemies that others don't, though more on that in 3-9.

3-9 comes along and he's not much better. Probably worse actually. He's lucky to at least have a low base level so it's possible for him to have leveled by now and with Paragon he'll level fast, but he likely won't start doubling soon, and Swords combined with bad Strength make him a poor offensive unit. Hopefully by 3-11 he'll have leveled a good amount and grabbed a partner to give him pretty nice durability, though he'll likely need a bit more leveling before he can double and claim decent offense. In truth, he has among the best potential of the Royal Knights to grow into a good unit due to his high Speed, he just needs a bit of extra effort.

It's too bad his crap Speed caps screw over what could have been a really fast unit, but that's life. Strength is his real issue, though this can be mostly mitigated when he promotes and gets Axes. He'll be an okay Endgame choice if he gets enough Strength, but nothing spectacular. In conclusion: Average, then kind of bad, eventually okay. Meh.

3.5/10

Transfer changes:

Str, Spd, and Def. This actually helps quite a lot, especially that Speed. He's suddenly doubling a lot in 2-3 with more damage and durability on top of it, enough to seriously compete with Geoffrey and Kieran as the best unit on the map. This continues in 3-9, where a low base level, Paragon, and awesome Speed growth actually has a good chance of getting him doubling. His Strength is still an issue, but much easier to get around and his lategame potential becomes a lot better. In the end, he goes from a mostly bad unit to an overall average unit.

5/10

Danved

Damn it, he is Devdan. I'd think getting the guy's transfer bonuses would be proof of that.

The last 2-3 joiner, finally, and the only one not on a horse. Of course, that's more of a bad thing than a good thing since it means he'll have problems keeping up. If he can keep up, he'll be the only one definitely doubling the 17 AS enemies, all 4 of them, with one more Strength than Marcia and 7 less than Geoffrey, and the same weapon pool. Also, similar durability to Marcia, just without the Canto. See where I'm going? Hell, even if 2-E is played out for 15 turns he won't get much, if any action, since he starts further back than any of the CRK's, though I suppose he can be Rescued so it isn't really that bad.

And then, since his level is really neither high nor low but his growths and caps are pretty bland, he isn't going very far. Depending on how much he gets out of 3-9, where he's actually got a bit more use due to being able to hop ledges, he might be able to double for some time, which he'll need since his Strength is otherwise not too good. Yes, this can be partially avoided by his Fire affinity and a strong forge, but borderline doubling and average durability just isn't very good at this point and neither will it be any time soon.

Sorry Danved, but you can't really fight like ten men.

3/10

Transfer changes:

Just Strength for this guy. It might help him a bit later, but this wasn't exactly his real issue in the first place, so he doesn't change much in the end.

Calill

Calill is the only character to make her appearance in 2-E, which is obviously her only part 2 map. She's decent there. She does fairly good ranged damage, especially effective for attacking over walls. She also has Meteor, which can help in clearing Ludveck risk-free. And that's about the best of it, since she doesn't double and her physical durability is not good at all.

Then she comes back with everyone in 3-9, where she performs mostly the same job. That is, ranged attacking. She should be using Paragon, so she'll level fast, which is exactly what she needs for when she returns in 3-11. It's about at this time where her potential starts to show, since with a bit more leveling she'll start doubling reliably, and with the right support she'll be able to dodge fairly well on top of it. She's a fairly unique character since she's really the only Sage you can expect to double reliably at any point in the game, but her limited availability can make that rather tough to pull off. She's able to make herself useful, though in less important ways than most other characters, so many may not find her very useful in the end since Endgame is likely where she's at her best. Staves on promotion and ability to use long-range Magic also help her case.

In the end, she's a character who's help can be appreciated but may come at a small cost.

4/10

Transfer changes:

She can't get anything on her own, and it hasn't been confirmed that she can get anything from Largo either. I know at least 3 people, including myself, who tried transferring Largo's stats but failed.

[Candlejack]

I think Mordy could get up to 8 since he is such a goddamn defensive monster and even then, he's got 28 base STR. Yeah his SPD and SKL are bad but...

FREAKING BASE 32 DEF. The only people who can match that are, like, two or three royals and those shitty dragons in Part 4. Also BK but lolBK.

and base 28 STR is nothing to scoff at either. It beats out a lot of people in early part 3 and all of Part 2. OH, and I forgot to mention wtf57 HP. And with 45% DEF and 90% HP growths, he can keep being a defensive giant for pretty much the entire game if you so desire.

[Allan's Aokage]

I believe the current theory regarding Largo-to-Calill transfers have "Calill and Largo at Level 20" as a prerequisite. Did you try that, incidentally~?

[nflchamp]

I believe the current theory regarding Largo-to-Calill transfers have "Calill and Largo at Level 20" as a prerequisite. Did you try that, incidentally~?

I think people have tried only Largo at 20 when testing to see if bonuses transfer. I wouldn't be against trying that, though, if people want to test it.

[Florete]

I believe the current theory regarding Largo-to-Calill transfers have "Calill and Largo at Level 20" as a prerequisite. Did you try that, incidentally~?

I did. No dice.

[Original Alear]

Fox, since we are giving extra pts to characters for transfer bonuses, can we subtract the sum total of all the bonus points from transfers from Pelleas and Lehran's scores?

Since you can only play them on cycled PTs, I believe it's impossible to have them coexist w/ transfers.

He's a very solid character in 2-3. I only wish he existed in 2-E, but his team shows up too late to really do anything of value.

They can pick up a free arm scroll on the right side without you having to use up turns for your flying units!

So useful!

I was under the impression that efficient meant maximixing BEXP while keeping the turn count as low as possible.

Which is just minimizing turncount for the most part (I think the only exceptions are 1-7, where you might have to wait extraa turns to let the soldiers escape, and maybe 2-3; I don't know if it adds turns to let all 50 units survive). I don't know if there's anyway to sacrifice a village in 3-9 in order to minimize turncount there.

There's a bit of difference here. It's possible to get max BEXP on 3-9 while still killing all the enemies, even if it's more difficult (Plus, if you're fast enough, you won't even have to douse many houses. I think I've gotten by with only 2). It's not possible to both kill 2-3's enemies and get their BEXP. One cancels the other out.

I'm pretty sure the first house that gets burned will be doused by the allied units if you leave it burning during the first opportunity you have to save it. Not sure if there are any other opportunities for allies to save houses and thus save you turns.

For example, I'm pretty sure it's best overall to take as much BEXP as you can from 2-3, but I'm not going to explain why because that would be going off-topic.

Really? To me, it has a lot to do with the fact that the BEXP is "transferable" to other characters who will make more use of it than 2-3's characters will make use of the CEXP they'll get in that chapter (and thus, it has a lot to do with character rankings - the CEXP you lose on your units is inferior to the BEXP you get).

Even if you're planning on using one of the Royal Knights, I think that the BEXP is still better. For instance, Geoff needs ~800 BEXP pts, so 8 units spared is a level up for him. I don't know the CEXP calculations, but I don't think that 8 kills on the mostly unpromoted enemy units on this map will be giving him a level, even w/ paragon.

I'm guessing Astrid gets a lot of mileage from the CEXP here (especially since she definitely doesn't want to level off of BEXP) but I'm guessing a lot of the others are in the other boat.

Edited December 27, 2009 by SeverIan

[Florete]

Fox, since we are giving extra pts to characters for transfer bonuses, can we subtract the sum total of all the bonus points from transfers from Pelleas and Lehran's scores?

Since you can only play them on cycled PTs, I believe it's impossible to have them coexist w/ transfers.

.....

What?

[Naglfar]

Fox, since we are giving extra pts to characters for transfer bonuses, can we subtract the sum total of all the bonus points from transfers from Pelleas and Lehran's scores?

Since you can only play them on cycled PTs, I believe it's impossible to have them coexist w/ transfers.

.....

What?

I think he thinks you can't play on clear data with transfers.

[Dat Nick]

The last time I heard anything on the subject [which used actual testing btw], Largo boosts don't stack and only apply for stats Callil doesn't cap herself. Not like she's going to do a whole lot with +2 str and maybe HP.

Edited December 28, 2009 by imtrollingmekkah

[Sho Minamimoto]

Makalov doubles in Part 2? Eh, I don't recall that happening.

Hax Greil Mercenaries next, can't wait to see how you evaluate them.

[Bryan]

Makalov doubles in Part 2? Eh, I don't recall that happening.

Hax Greil Mercenaries next, can't wait to see how you evaluate them.

Yes. Ike Review W00t! :D

[Dat Nick]

transfer ike 11/10

[Defeatist Elitist]

transfer ike 11/10

Transfer Ike 0/10

Unable to satisfy a woman, would not buy again

[Dat Nick]

lyre will get a 3/10 before tike gets 0

[Defeatist Elitist]

lyre will get a 3/10 before tike gets 0

Lyre 3/10

Can begin to satisfy a woman. Would likely buy again with improvement of service.

[Candlejack]

Ike satisfies Soren; I'd say he comes 2/5 the way of becoming a woman.