Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[Zkirsche]

I'd ask why they seem accepting of Micaiah and Nolan's current tier positions.

Pretty much says "They're .5 distance away from each other in the tier list, so why not here?" to me or "They're not far enougth away from each other in the tier list to be a full point difference". Either way, you mentioned teh tier list here, yet you said the ranking doesn't necessarily follow the tier list, meaning that the tier list is irrelevant.

Edited November 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

I'd ask why they seem accepting of Micaiah and Nolan's current tier positions.

Pretty much says "They're .5 distance away from each other in the tier list, so why not here?" to me or "They're not far enougth away from each other in the tier list to be a full point difference". Either way, you mentioned teh tier list here, yet you said the ranking doesn't necessarily follow the tier list, meaning that the tier list is irrelevant.

No, that's not what it says. It says "If they accepted these two characters being close in that topic, why would they not accept it in this one"? It wasn't using the tier list as justification for the ratings, it was, in essence, countering a theoretical argument (Narga/Colonel M complaining about the specific rating, Narga in particular since he helped argue Micaiah up iirc) with the tier list as the basis. It was also under the assumption the two of them only express an issue, not actually make any kind of significant argument about it. If you must know, I didn't notice how close they were on the list until after I'd written and rated the two.

Basically, you're saying it's:

Smash: Nolan and Micaiah should be further.

Red Fox: They're this close on the tier list.

When it's actually:

Narga (theoretical): Nolan and Micaiah should be further.

Red Fox: Why do you accept it on the tier list but not here?

Note the difference. I don't follow the tier list because this is my topic and I have my own ideas, but if someone else has a problem in one topic, they should have it in both if the case is the same in both, which Micaiah and Nolan's positioning happen to be.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Zkirsche]

Using your tier list as a referance doesn't necessarily justify the rankings, statistics do. If I were to say I don't agree with their positions, and ask again why there was only a .5 difference between the two, you'd either have to provide proof or ask me why I don't think there's such a small/big gap between them.

Point is, referances to the tier list don't answer anything. It's better to just skip to the last thing.

[Narga_Rocks]

I gotta go with RFoF on this one, at least as far as my theoretical response is concerned. I (along with others) argued Nolan down to his current position, and I (along with others) argued Micaiah up to her current position. Unless Jill(T) and Elincia were to be the only 8.0s in all of upper mid, Micaiah an 8.0 and Nolan an 8.5 were the only way to go. My complaints are restricted to the tier list as it currently is and any complaints I've made in the past that haven't been accepted because others disagreed. Well, and any complaints that I haven't voiced. Except if I haven't voiced it on the tier list, she is justified in asking why.

She doesn't have to reflect the list to the letter in order to ask why I'd be complaining about something that reflects the tier list. In this case, it is about what I do, not about what she does. She's justified in questioning any apparent inconsistencies on my part.

[Florete]

Tormod

Short stuff here is kind of a strange character to rate. He's one of the weird specimens that Radiant Dawn's structure created.

He has 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E in part, all 3 of which he does pretty well in. He doesn't double everything but does double a lot and also hits Resistance, so he does more damage than most. He's also surprisingly durable for a Magic user, helped by the fact that he doesn't often take counters. His effectiveness with Thunder Magic against 1-8's Dracoknights is a pretty good help towards saving all the Prisoners, but otherwise I find him mostly useful for weakening enemies so my other guys don't risk a counter. In the end, he's reliable in part 1, just not amazing due to a bunch of other awesome units showing up in these chapters.

And then he's gone. Part 2 goes by, nothing. Part 3 goes by, no sign of him. It takes until partway through part 4 for him to show up again, and now he sucks. You know it's bad when the most efficient use of a forced character is to have them get put to sleep and killed so someone you actually want to use doesn't take a nap. There's no saving Tormod at this point. Sure, he'll grow fast, but his stats are just too awful and his growths aren't good enough to catch him up in the very little time he has left in the game.

It's hard to give this guy an accurate rating because of how weird his path through the game is. It's hard to say he's average because even during his good chapters he's overshadowed by all the other good units that showed up before and that show up around the same time as him. It is nice that he can weaken a lot of enemies from range, but with his limited time that's only worth so much in the end. He can't even really support anyone, but even if he could, Fire is somewhat situational.

4.5/10

Transfer changes:

There isn't anything Tormod can reasonably get from a transfer (Aside from useless Bonds, of course). Even if he could I don't think it would help him or his rating at all.

Muarim

Muarim is in the same position as Tormod, so instead of drawing it out, I'll just say it now: Great in part 1, bad in part 4.

His position is better than Tormod's at least. He needs to stay transformed, which can be a problem with limited Olivi Grass, but as long he is he basically kills everything and never dies with 9 move. This has its ups and downs, but even untransformed he's not in too much danger, so he's a reliable one to use for part 1 when you need an extra unit killing things or saving other units.

And then he's gone. Poof. Unseen until 4-4. But unlike Tormod, Muarim isn't that bad here. 48 base Mt is pretty high, even for now, and with his fast leveling speed and 55% Strength growth that's going to go up, although he'll never double so his Strike rank might never even reach S. Strangely enough, durability is now his biggest issue because almost every enemy doubles him with significant crit rates. Like Tormod, it's probably best to feed him to the Sleep staff since he won't be worth much of anything afterward.

5/10

Transfer changes:

Muarim in Path of Radiance couldn't cap most of his stats even if he got them on every level up and used every stat booster. Nothing to see here.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

Tormod

Short stuff here is kind of a strange character to rate. He's one of the weird specimens that Radiant Dawn's structure created.

He has 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E in part, all 3 of which he does pretty well in. He doesn't double everything but does double a lot and also hits Resistance, so he does more damage than most. He's also surprisingly durable for a Magic user, helped by the fact that he doesn't often take counters. His effectiveness with Thunder Magic against 1-8's Dracoknights is a pretty good help towards saving all the Prisoners, but otherwise I find him mostly useful for weakening enemies so my other guys don't risk a counter. In the end, he's reliable in part 1, just not amazing due to a bunch of other awesome units showing up in these chapters.

And then he's gone. Part 2 goes by, nothing. Part 3 goes by, no sign of him. It takes until partway through part 4 for him to show up again, and now he sucks. You know it's bad when the most efficient use of a forced character is to have them get put to sleep and killed so someone you actually want to use doesn't take a nap. There's no saving Tormod at this point. Sure, he'll grow fast, but his stats are just too awful and his growths aren't good enough to catch him up in the very little time he has left in the game.

It's hard to give this guy an accurate rating because of how weird his path through the game is. It's hard to say he's average because even during his good chapters he's overshadowed by all the other good units that showed up before and that show up around the same time as him. It is nice that he can weaken a lot of enemies from range, but with his limited time that's only worth so much in the end. He can't even really support anyone, but even if he could, Fire is somewhat situational.

4.5/10

Transfer changes:

There isn't anything Tormod can reasonably get from a transfer (Aside from useless Bonds, of course). Even if he could I don't think it would help him or his rating at all.

Muarim

Muarim is in the same position as Tormod, so instead of drawing it out, I'll just say it now: Great in part 1, bad in part 4.

His position is better than Tormod's at least. He needs to stay transformed, which can be a problem with limited Olivi Grass, but as long he is he basically kills everything and never dies with 9 move. This has its ups and downs, but even untransformed he's not in too much danger, so he's a reliable one to use for part 1 when you need an extra unit killing things or saving other units.

And then he's gone. Poof. Unseen until 4-4. But unlike Tormod, Muarim isn't that bad here. 48 base Mt is pretty high, even for now, and with his fast leveling speed and 55% Strength growth that's going to go up, although he'll never double so his Strike rank might never even reach S. Strangely enough, durability is now his biggest issue because almost every enemy doubles him with significant crit rates. Like Tormod, it's probably best to feed him to the Sleep staff since he won't be worth much of anything afterward.

5.5/10

Transfer changes:

Muarim in Path of Radiance couldn't cap most of his stats even if he got them on every level up and used every stat booster. Nothing to see here.

Hmm... One of the characters you'll be rating next is one who I have an EXTREMELY low opinion of (as revealed by my member title). That aside, yeah... it's pretty bad for Tormod here.

[Dat Nick]

Zihark: The biggest furry since Grandjackal.

credit plox >:-(

Edited November 30, 2009 by Marshall Lawl

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

It's hard to give this guy an accurate rating because of how weird his path through the game is.

Just do for Tormod what Mekkah did for Eyvel in his FE5 character ratings thread: give him two ratings: one for his earlygame and one for his lategame.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Black Soldier

[Mekkah]

Darros sucks.

[Dat Nick]

Darros sucks.

and isnt in this game

[Florete]

Zihark: The biggest furry since Grandjackal.

credit plox >:-(

Added.

It's hard to give this guy an accurate rating because of how weird his path through the game is.

Just do for Tormod what Mekkah did for Eyvel in his FE5 character ratings thread: give him two ratings: one for his earlygame and one for his lategame.

I could, but that's not really my style. Plus, his second rating would be based solely on 4-4 since someone like him isn't going to Endgame (although I guess if part 1 is disregarded it might happen as a requirement to accurately rank him). Besides, his current rating is like 95% part 1 anyway, so that can be seen as his early game rating while his late game would likely just be 0 or .5.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Fiona

IS must be racist because Fiona is, as far as I know, the first and only female black character in the series, and yet she sucks terribly. She's one of those characters that makes you wonder if the creators decided to put terrible characters in their game on purpose.

On paper, Fiona looks like the tank. 50+ growths in all of Speed, Luck, Defense, and Resistance, Earth affinity for lots more avoid, Imbue to recover health on her own, Savior to rescue someone else while still being fine herself, and Canto to get herself out of danger in a pinch. Basically, she's supposed to dodge everything, take little damage when hit, and then recover it back on the player phase anyway. Her HP is fairly lacking at only 45% growth, but with everything else that shouldn't be such a big deal.

Unfortunately, that's not what Fiona turns out to be. She has trouble surviving just one enemy in her joining map, 1-7, without any boosting (Note that if you plan to use her a Seraph Robe actually helps quite a bit). She has problems hitting because her Skill is not that good, and even though this can be mostly averted with a forge, she still has no chance of hitting often with a Javelin. Even if she could hit she does crap for damage, and if she doesn't kill she risks being killed. In short, she's worthless. IS couldn't even give her the full benefit of her class because her first two maps, which are also her only maps in part 1, make her lose 2 move, bringing her mobility down to that of your other tier 1 units aside from Canto, but also unable to jump ledges, which both of her first two maps have.

Even when part 3 comes she hasn't been given a break. If you can manage to baby her enough in part 1 to where she can survive at least one enemy (It takes until 20/1 for most enemies, and even then some Cats can still get her due to doubling if she doesn't have any boosters or a +Def support) IS decides to say "Fuck her" and keeps her from accessing two-thirds of the map. So yeah.

3-12 finally allows her to be unrestricted. Of course, unless you took 50 turns in part 1 abusing the hell out of enemies to get her properly leveled, she's still going to suck, so it isn't worth that much. 3-13 goes back into "We hate Fiona" mode and cuts her move and puts ledges in for her to not jump with her horse.

If you can somehow level her well enough for Endgame, she actually has really good caps and a good SS weapon to use, along with Earth affinity being really nice for her and a partner, but the effort it takes to get her there is absurd.Whenever I do use her I support her with Jill because Jill likes the avoid and Fiona likes the Defense, and also because both are good in Endgame when leveled enough.

With everything about her, it's really not surprising people think of her as the worst character in the game. An alternative method of rating/ranking her could be keeping her out of combat and having her perform utility tasks like Rescuing and ledge blocking in part 3 since her slot there is free, and because of this it's tempting to give her at least 0.5 for being able to do something useful without being at the expense of efficiency. I won't for now, but I might change it later.

0/10

Not even. (bolded part) It just takes a little patience. (ZOMG OH NO not that!) Shes the only horsey unit the DB gets and she can be extremely useful. a 0 for actual utility use is silly considering coming from someone who seems to find usefulness in just about every unit. She doesnt even need THAT much tweaking. Only a Secret Book and MAYBE an Energy Drop and if you wanna go full on, give her Paragon. Yes, Fionas base skill is fucking crap but the Secret Book helps a bit. By the time 3-12/3-13 comes around, Killer Lances are availiable for purchase. :|

Edited December 1, 2009 by Lil Cthulhu

[Florete]

Not even. (bolded part) It just takes a little patience. (ZOMG OH NO not that!) Shes the only horsey unit the DB gets and she can be extremely useful. a 0 for actual utility use is silly considering coming from someone who seems to find usefulness in just about every unit. She doesnt even need THAT much tweaking. Only a Secret Book and MAYBE an Energy Drop and if you wanna go full on, give her Paragon. Yes, Fionas base skill is fucking crap but the Secret Book helps a bit. By the time 3-12/3-13 comes around, Killer Lances are availiable for purchase. :|

Uh, have you tried using her in HM? Most of the enemies outright kill her and she can't do much damage. A Secret Book will help a bit, but 4 more Hit isn't that much when you realize she only has 135% Hit growth. Her horse isn't a good enough advantage when her stats suck so terribly and it ends up hindering just as much as helping, which you should know if you read my review on her. Killer Lances aren't going to save her.

[Narga_Rocks]

Tormod

Short stuff here is kind of a strange character to rate. He's one of the weird specimens that Radiant Dawn's structure created.

He has 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E in part, all 3 of which he does pretty well in. He doesn't double everything but does double a lot and also hits Resistance, so he does more damage than most. He's also surprisingly durable for a Magic user, helped by the fact that he doesn't often take counters. His effectiveness with Thunder Magic against 1-8's Dracoknights is a pretty good help towards saving all the Prisoners, but otherwise I find him mostly useful for weakening enemies so my other guys don't risk a counter. In the end, he's reliable in part 1, just not amazing due to a bunch of other awesome units showing up in these chapters.

And then he's gone. Part 2 goes by, nothing. Part 3 goes by, no sign of him. It takes until partway through part 4 for him to show up again, and now he sucks. You know it's bad when the most efficient use of a forced character is to have them get put to sleep and killed so someone you actually want to use doesn't take a nap. There's no saving Tormod at this point. Sure, he'll grow fast, but his stats are just too awful and his growths aren't good enough to catch him up in the very little time he has left in the game.

It's hard to give this guy an accurate rating because of how weird his path through the game is. It's hard to say he's average because even during his good chapters he's overshadowed by all the other good units that showed up before and that show up around the same time as him. It is nice that he can weaken a lot of enemies from range, but with his limited time that's only worth so much in the end. He can't even really support anyone, but even if he could, Fire is somewhat situational.

4.5/10

Transfer changes:

There isn't anything Tormod can reasonably get from a transfer (Aside from useless Bonds, of course). Even if he could I don't think it would help him or his rating at all.

Muarim

Muarim is in the same position as Tormod, so instead of drawing it out, I'll just say it now: Great in part 1, bad in part 4.

His position is better than Tormod's at least. He needs to stay transformed, which can be a problem with limited Olivi Grass, but as long he is he basically kills everything and never dies with 9 move. This has its ups and downs, but even untransformed he's not in too much danger, so he's a reliable one to use for part 1 when you need an extra unit killing things or saving other units.

And then he's gone. Poof. Unseen until 4-4. But unlike Tormod, Muarim isn't that bad here. 48 base Mt is pretty high, even for now, and with his fast leveling speed and 55% Strength growth that's going to go up, although he'll never double so his Strike rank might never even reach S. Strangely enough, durability is now his biggest issue because almost every enemy doubles him with significant crit rates. Like Tormod, it's probably best to feed him to the Sleep staff since he won't be worth much of anything afterward.

5.5/10

Transfer changes:

Muarim in Path of Radiance couldn't cap most of his stats even if he got them on every level up and used every stat booster. Nothing to see here.

Considering Muarim seems to be getting credit for being able to kill stuff: Tormod can ORKO everything he doubles if he has a forge. This forge can even then be passed on to the GMs since you'll probably want one for Soren anyway. Soren doesn't double, so the 40 uses is probably more than enough anyway, so 28 or so uses isn't bad. This even helps with the complaint about sending everything to the GMs. The DB will have benefited from about a third of this item anyway, so since it is money likely destined to the GMs anyway, might as well. There aren't that many enemies with 17 AS. Besides, Volug only doubles up to 15 AS. 34hp/12 def is actually decent. 3HKOd by less than 29mt in 1-E. Combined with avoiding most player phase counters? He's not precisely 4HKOd, but it is similar. It's like 3 and a half. Also, there are a fair number of mages here. He's like the other units in durability against physicals, only a little less, but much better against the mages. Also, better move than BK thanks to less ledge penalty. There are only actually 9 enemies that 2HKO him in 1-E.

I think with the no gauge issues and being able to ORKO everything anyway and having decent durability, it about cancels Muarim's gauge issues with better durability. Plus, he's better at KOing one of the mages on the ledge in 1-7 which can significantly speed up the 1-7 clear. Muarim has to go the long way around without Tormod's help. Sothe might be able to pull it off with one of his knives, but Tormod has an easier time of it. Also 1-8 is only 6 turns long and Muarim may not transform until turn 3 (with a draco). The only way to transform on turn 2 is if he gets attacked and he misses the enemy, since he's got so much str that he'll do damage if he hits. It's not like Vika tinking the Bandits. There aren't even any 2 range users nearby on turn 1 (I think). Also, killing the draco on turn 1? That's huge. Muarim shoves, but he's not the only shove option. Vika could shove Tormod instead. Tormod and Muarim are pretty much even on the reinforcements in the south. Muarim can run off to other areas, I suppose, though since he won't transform until turn 3 he doesn't have much time to get anywhere. But if he does that then Tormod is killing the reinforcements and that's a vital role if the map is rout and you are now the only guy in the area.

Basically, with all this considered I'd say same score. I'm not sure if they should get 4.5 or 5.0 or 5.5. If they should get 5.0 then I suppose this falls under the +/- 0.5 thing. Also, I have brought this up on the tier list before. They moved a tad, but not much.

[Florete]

You bring up a good point, I never thought of what Tormod could do with a forge. I'm still not sure about having the same score since Muarim still clearly wins durability, mobility, and can do a bit in 4-4, but I'll likely close the gap.

[dondon151]

I don't think Muarim and Tormod should get the same score solely because Muarim doesn't instantly die in 4-4. That qualifies for at least a .5 difference, even before factoring the margin of error.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Uh, have you tried using her in HM? Most of the enemies outright kill her and she can't do much damage.

Yeah the same could be said of many characters if yer talking Hard Mode.

[dondon151]

A total of 3 other characters. In a game with a 70+ character cast.

[Candlejack]

You forgot Astrid.

... Assuming you're talking about Meg, Lyre, and Fiona.

And Cthulu is just a newb.

[Florete]

A total of 3 other characters. In a game with a 70+ character cast.

You forgot Astrid.

... Assuming you're talking about Meg, Lyre, and Fiona.

And Cthulu is just a newb.

3 other characters. Fiona is the original, Meg, Lyre, and Astrid are other.

By the way, dropping Muarim to 5.

[Candlejack]

But why? Oh, I get it.

Nailah pretty much has him beat in everything...

[grandjackal]

Hey, ranking topic. Why not?

*Reads through*

...Hm?

Zihark

Zihark: The biggest furry since Grandjackal.*

OI! At least say I'm prettier than him (and I totally am).

This seemed kind of random. True that Zihark loves him some tail, but who brought me up?

*Credit to Bblader for the furry joke.

Ahhh, should have guessed.

[Candlejack]

Except he doesn't. Neither do you.

But unlike you, he's surrounded by some pretty hawt chicks.

[grandjackal]

Except he doesn't. Neither do you.

....huh? What does this pertain to?

But unlike you, he's surrounded by some pretty hawt chicks.

And I care, why?

[Candlejack]

Because yer jealous.