Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[Fayt Zelpher]

Ike

Transfer changes:

Ike can get HP, Strength, Skill, Speed, and Defense from a transfer.

Wtf.

Recall the biggest problem he had: borderline doubling. Guess what? It's gone. 25 base Speed doubles everything not a Swordmaster or Lombroso until 3-10, where his Speed can be capped. Even along the way he'll start doubling those pesky Swordmasters because he can start slowplaying BEXP immediately, getting Speed as soon as the second level when he already has HP, Strength, and Skill capped. Oh, and he's more durable at base than the previous winner, Gatrie, now, since he still loses 1 Def but has 4 more HP and more avoid. I did some calculations if Ike uses BEXP on every level with a transfer and came out with the following (approximate) level 20 averages, the numbers in parentheses being how high from average it is:

HP: 50 (+0.15) (Cap at 12)

Str: 27 (Cap at 12)

Mag: 5 (+2.1)

Skl: 30 (Cap at base)

Spd: 30 (+3.85) (Cap at ~17)

Lck: 22 (+5.3)

Def: 26 (+1.4) (Cap at ~14)

Res: 13 (+4.65)

As you can see, he hardly even cares about Magic enemies or crits anymore. At least not as much as he might have before.

Another little tidbit is his performance against the 3-P boss. Before he was not doubling and doing 18 damage a hit to Silvano's 39 HP, a 3 hit. Now he doubles and does 20, a one round. What. The. Hell. This guy breaks the game.

10.5/10

I'd actually argue that he can feasibly get a Res transfer as well with only a small amount of abuse. Of the characters that have a realistic chance of getting the transfer (i.e. >5%), Soren, Rhys, and Ilyana will get it on average, Tormod is almost certainly not played in this game or PoR, and Mist really isn't wanting the transfer - she needs other stats more. I therefore see no real reason why Ike shouldn't get the talisman if your going for a transfer run, especially seeing how much it helps him in this game. Right now in my transfer run, Ike has 14 Res at Lvl 20/4 without the talisman (and I've only been abusing for HP here, so no real preferential treatment for Res). With a 40% growth in Res and 6 points to get (He'll get the talisman if needed) in 16 levels, he'll easily be able to hit the Res cap of 22.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Florete]

Aww I was hoping to see something on what possible reasons Ike would ever use Axes instead of Ragnell.

I didn't add something about that? Hm...Perhaps I will.

RFoF, I thought you agreed Brom (T) > Tauroneo in the tier list?

That's a pretty tough comparison to deal with at all, though I might lower Tauroneo.

I'd actually argue that he can feasibly get a Res transfer as well with only a small amount of abuse. Of the characters that have a realistic chance of getting the transfer (i.e. >5%), Soren, Rhys, and Ilyana will get it on average, Tormod is almost certainly not played in this game or PoR, and Mist really isn't wanting the transfer - she needs other stats more. I therefore see no real reason why Ike shouldn't get the talisman if your going for a transfer run, especially seeing how much it helps him in this game. Right now in my transfer run, Ike has 14 Res at Lvl 20/4 without the talisman (and I've only been abusing for HP here, so no real preferential treatment for Res). With a 40% growth in Res and 6 points to get (He'll get the talisman if needed) in 16 levels, he'll easily be able to hit the Res cap of 22.

I actually brought that up once but it didn't get much discussion and kind of got dropped/forgotten. Remember it assumes fixed mode for near guaranteed results, and I concluded that although Ike needs both Talismans, the fact that one of the other two (I think it was Tormod) would also need both Talismans to cap Res meant that only one person could make use of the Talismans at all, Ike being the best option. This could be added in if it sees more acceptance.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'd actually argue that he can feasibly get a Res transfer as well with only a small amount of abuse. Of the characters that have a realistic chance of getting the transfer (i.e. >5%), Soren, Rhys, and Ilyana will get it on average, Tormod is almost certainly not played in this game or PoR, and Mist really isn't wanting the transfer - she needs other stats more. I therefore see no real reason why Ike shouldn't get the talisman if your going for a transfer run, especially seeing how much it helps him in this game. Right now in my transfer run, Ike has 14 Res at Lvl 20/4 without the talisman (and I've only been abusing for HP here, so no real preferential treatment for Res). With a 40% growth in Res and 6 points to get (He'll get the talisman if needed) in 16 levels, he'll easily be able to hit the Res cap of 22.

I actually brought that up once but it didn't get much discussion and kind of got dropped/forgotten. Remember it assumes fixed mode for near guaranteed results, and I concluded that although Ike needs both Talismans, the fact that one of the other two (I think it was Tormod) would also need both Talismans to cap Res meant that only one person could make use of the Talismans at all, Ike being the best option. This could be added in if it sees more acceptance.

Alright, fair enough. It's just that when I am doing a transfer run, I generally implement random mode and assume a small amount of BExp abuse, so I am really looking at the characters that have a reasonable chance of getting the stat (I can generally get more stats this way as well). It's also good for instances where you want to pass the KW around to help two or three generals/paladins out (Gatrie's name is written all over this strategy, plus Geoffrey has a small chance of Spd (the only thing reasonable) as well with this method - though he might need a wing, I can't remember.)

[Bryan]

I won't be liked for the following review and the score to follow it.

No kidding. Particularly since hes actually the most functional mage in the game. Who the hell else are you gonna use? Ilyana Little Miss No Speed? Tormod of No Availability? Calill (LOL)? Seriously, hes the only decent mage in the game. (also considering what magic levels he maxed in PoR, gives him that uber bonus to his levels during the transfer.) Yeah also forget Adept much?

Why must you use a mage? If this was like any of the nicer FEs where having a mage around means enemy generals cry it would be one thing. A lot of units 2RKO Generals anyway and while 2 Hammers doesn't give a lot of uses they do allow any axe user to ORKO if they double. Soren is lucky to 2HKO and frequently 3HKOs and doesn't double. So he's basically worse than a lot of your other attackers against Generals, and that's basically his best case scenario. And he'll not be dodging frequently enough to send him out there on enemy phase when he's getting 2HKOd by everything, so I have to ask what does it matter if he's the most functional mage in the game (which he isn't thanks to Micaiah and, yes, Calill)? Asvel he is not. (In fact, he still couldn't hold a candle to pre-Narga Yuria even if you remove the hp drain effect of Resire)

Oh, and Ilyana does his job about the same. Sure, he frequently 2HKOs stuff that she 3HKOs when both are given forges, but honestly why is he soloing any enemies? Against the majority of enemies she's basically just as capable of combining with most random GM units to KO a unit as Soren is.

Also, being (N), Soren (N) doesn't get any weapon levels from PoR. Although, the Bs he starts with (A wind) are good enough for most tasks anyway. Just needs 1 thunder level to get to Arcthunder and Thoron is not practical to purchase and a forged thunder is > Arcthunder anyway. He has no need of Bolganone since he doesn't appear in 4-5 (making Ilyana and Calill better choices to raise anyway if you absolutely must raise a sage) so B Fire gets him all the fire he'll ever be able to use and E thunder is honestly all he needs for thunder. Well, the 3-11 Thoron could be purchased if you really want, but an 8mt forge (1 less mt than Thoron and possibly fixed by a card) has 24 mt on dragons anyway vs. 27 mt from Thoron. And the forge will have better hit (and >= crit since Thoron is only 5 crit, but that doesn't matter much) and probably be cheaper per hit. T version already has a higher score if starting with S Wind, A Fire, A Thunder makes a difference over ABB.

Who the hell else are you gonna use?

Ike

Haar

Mia

Titania

Gatrie

Janaff

Ulki

Shinon

Nephenee

Oscar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Boyd

Mist (healing)

Heather (when necessary)

Rhys (healing)

I see no reason to use Soren when I have more units (that are better than he is) than slots already.

And yeah, Adept on Soren is only an argument for players that don't seem to realize that you can give Adept to someone that uses it better. Playing efficiently, giving Soren credit for Adept would be like giving Fiona credit for Saviour and Imbue (so 3-6 easy button with Saviour Sothe, for example).

While everything you said is true, I will still use Soren because he can use Rexcal. (For all thats worth. -___-)

(I have to use each SS weapon, and there has to be one person to use each.)

[Narga_Rocks]

While everything you said is true, I will still use Soren because he can use Rexcal. (For all thats worth. -___-)

(I have to use each SS weapon, and there has to be one person to use each.)

I did the one of everything (except Dark and various strikes) on EM. It was cool. I didn't bring him on NM or HM and I can't imagine forcing myself to do that on HM, but I understand wanting to use them all and at least he's faster than Bastian. All I can say for Bastian is that at least you don't have to train his staves in order to get him able to use Physics for 4-E.

I just wish that Rexcalibur was more like Holsety. I'd use Soren every time (despite having to endure his existence prior to 4-1).

Even 15 mt and +5 spd would be great. Better yet 20 mt, +5spd. (or 30mt, +10skl, +20spd)

[Blademaster!]

I won't be liked for the following review and the score to follow it.

No kidding. Particularly since hes actually the most functional mage in the game. Who the hell else are you gonna use? Ilyana Little Miss No Speed? Tormod of No Availability? Calill (LOL)? Seriously, hes the only decent mage in the game. (also considering what magic levels he maxed in PoR, gives him that uber bonus to his levels during the transfer.) Yeah also forget Adept much?

Why must you use a mage? If this was like any of the nicer FEs where having a mage around means enemy generals cry it would be one thing. A lot of units 2RKO Generals anyway and while 2 Hammers doesn't give a lot of uses they do allow any axe user to ORKO if they double. Soren is lucky to 2HKO and frequently 3HKOs and doesn't double. So he's basically worse than a lot of your other attackers against Generals, and that's basically his best case scenario. And he'll not be dodging frequently enough to send him out there on enemy phase when he's getting 2HKOd by everything, so I have to ask what does it matter if he's the most functional mage in the game (which he isn't thanks to Micaiah and, yes, Calill)? Asvel he is not. (In fact, he still couldn't hold a candle to pre-Narga Yuria even if you remove the hp drain effect of Resire)

Oh, and Ilyana does his job about the same. Sure, he frequently 2HKOs stuff that she 3HKOs when both are given forges, but honestly why is he soloing any enemies? Against the majority of enemies she's basically just as capable of combining with most random GM units to KO a unit as Soren is.

Also, being (N), Soren (N) doesn't get any weapon levels from PoR. Although, the Bs he starts with (A wind) are good enough for most tasks anyway. Just needs 1 thunder level to get to Arcthunder and Thoron is not practical to purchase and a forged thunder is > Arcthunder anyway. He has no need of Bolganone since he doesn't appear in 4-5 (making Ilyana and Calill better choices to raise anyway if you absolutely must raise a sage) so B Fire gets him all the fire he'll ever be able to use and E thunder is honestly all he needs for thunder. Well, the 3-11 Thoron could be purchased if you really want, but an 8mt forge (1 less mt than Thoron and possibly fixed by a card) has 24 mt on dragons anyway vs. 27 mt from Thoron. And the forge will have better hit (and >= crit since Thoron is only 5 crit, but that doesn't matter much) and probably be cheaper per hit. T version already has a higher score if starting with S Wind, A Fire, A Thunder makes a difference over ABB.

Who the hell else are you gonna use?

Ike

Haar

Mia

Titania

Gatrie

Janaff

Ulki

Shinon

Nephenee

Oscar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Boyd

Mist (healing)

Heather (when necessary)

Rhys (healing)

I see no reason to use Soren when I have more units (that are better than he is) than slots already.

And yeah, Adept on Soren is only an argument for players that don't seem to realize that you can give Adept to someone that uses it better. Playing efficiently, giving Soren credit for Adept would be like giving Fiona credit for Saviour and Imbue (so 3-6 easy button with Saviour Sothe, for example).

While everything you said is true, I will still use Soren because he can use Rexcal. (For all thats worth. -___-)

(I have to use each SS weapon, and there has to be one person to use each.)

Bastian can use Rexcal and he has better weapon levels + innate corrosion. He's also possibly more durable or something else that makes him better than Soren for hard mode reasons.

[CT075]

I agree with whoever said that Rexcal should be like Holsety. Especially now that the AS formula isn't jacked up like FE4. (Everyone loses 18 AS from Axes, 12 AS from Lances, for example)

[Fayt Zelpher]

Bastian can use Rexcal and he has better weapon levels + innate corrosion. He's also possibly more durable or something else that makes him better than Soren for hard mode reasons.

If you're using Soren, he got the SS wind long ago and he's not going for any more weapon ranks after that, since he can't do more than S in other anima anyway. He's probably also got enough staff uses to get to at least C staves, which is all you need for Physic (the only staff worth arguing over). Assuming equal levels (--/20/10 for Soren v. --/--/10 for Bastian), we find that:

HP: Bastian by 3.4

Str (irrelevant, since they're not getting AS loss at this point): Bastian by 2

Mag: Soren by 1.2

Skl: Soren by 3.4

Spd: Soren by 4.15 (!)

Lck: Bastian by 1.6

Def: Bastian by 1

Res: Bastian by 0.7

3 and a half HP and 1 defense is not that much of a durability lead, especially since Soren will almost certainly have an A support at this point, and will either get some avoid (Ike) or Defense (Soren may choose a 6 move unit like Ilyana or Gatrie with their light support, though he wants Ike more). The key stat is bolded. the 4 points of speed here is huge. 29 Spd (assuming --/20/11 for Soren) is doubling most of the generals in 4-E-1, and 30 Spd (+4 levels) is keeping him from being doubled by the SM's in 4-E-2. Their growths are close enough to assume that their stat differences aren't changing much from one level to the next, so it's clear that Soren is easily winning attack, and the durability difference is negligible after factoring in Soren's support (which is probably a big chunk of avoid from Ike) and his not getting doubled (besides the SM's, there are a fair number of 28-29 AS warriors, snipers, and halberdiers to deal with in 4-E-2, plus a fair number of 24-26 AS generals which Soren can double with only minor luck or abuse.

Soren's Adept > Bastian's corrosion anyway, but it's a moot point. Adept is going to Mia (for Vantage + Adept, greatly increasing durability) and Corrosion is a tribute to Bastian's queen, who wants 4 chances to break a beorc weapon in 4-E-1 and 2 (it's useless in 4-5 except for Izuka, and Balberith is wanting to be sold or passed to Pelleas regardless).

Of course, if you're not going to use Soren, it's a moot point, but he will be better for endgame than Bastian will be.

Of course, Soren would actually be contributing beforehand as well...

Edited January 4, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Bryan]

Bastian can use Rexcal and he has better weapon levels + innate corrosion. He's also possibly more durable or something else that makes him better than Soren for hard mode reasons.

It doesn't matter to much when you hack. o...o

He comes in so late. :(

[Anouleth]

Bastian can use Rexcal and he has better weapon levels + innate corrosion. He's also possibly more durable or something else that makes him better than Soren for hard mode reasons.

It doesn't matter to much when you hack. o...o

He comes in so late. :(

He's still perfectly usable to pick off laguz in 4-5 and 4-E-3, and to backup heal.

It's a shame he doesn't have more availability though. Imagine if you got him in 2-E?

[Bryan]

Bastian can use Rexcal and he has better weapon levels + innate corrosion. He's also possibly more durable or something else that makes him better than Soren for hard mode reasons.

It doesn't matter to much when you hack. o...o

He comes in so late. :(

He's still perfectly usable to pick off laguz in 4-5 and 4-E-3, and to backup heal.

It's a shame he doesn't have more availability though. Imagine if you got him in 2-E?

I would probably use him then. But he has to little availbiltiy. (I could Edit Soren to become Bastian, but I don't care that much.)

[Narga_Rocks]

I would probably use him then. But he has to little availbiltiy. (I could Edit Soren to become Bastian, but I don't care that much.)

I would just love to use Marcia and Elincia from 3-2 on. Elincia would be too good (Amiti for how many chapters?), but Marcia would be more balanced there. Still High Tier despite her str issues, though. Well, Elincia might have issues hitting 25 AS in time to quad so she might not be too broken. 24 AS should be doable between her Mend usage and Physic usage be 3-4 or so. It's only ~3 levels.

[nflchamp]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

[Bryan]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

They nerfed all the sages with their pathetic speed caps. 30 (Ilyana) is simply bad, and even 32 (Soren/Bastian) is pretty awful. They're supposed to be fast, darn it.

[Bryan]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

They nerfed all the sages with their pathetic speed caps. 30 (Ilyana) is simply bad, and even 32 (Soren/Bastian) is pretty awful. They're supposed to be fast, darn it.

I know! :(

I'm so hacking them later. >>

[Anouleth]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

They nerfed all the sages with their pathetic speed caps. 30 (Ilyana) is simply bad, and even 32 (Soren/Bastian) is pretty awful. They're supposed to be fast, darn it.

If anything holds back Sages, it's bad speed base and speed growth. Ilyana and Soren may have awful speed caps, but they barely reach them on average, so it's not like raising them would help. In addition, all the Sages are rated low for either bad performance in Part 3 or bad availability in Part 3, not because they can't double in Endgame.

(the tier 2 speed cap is also an issue, since it prevents BEXPing Soren's speed to anything near a satisfactory level.)

[Ether]

While you're hacking,can you please make florete use mag to attack?

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

They nerfed all the sages with their pathetic speed caps. 30 (Ilyana) is simply bad, and even 32 (Soren/Bastian) is pretty awful. They're supposed to be fast, darn it.

If anything holds back Sages, it's bad speed base and speed growth. Ilyana and Soren may have awful speed caps, but they barely reach them on average, so it's not like raising them would help. In addition, all the Sages are rated low for either bad performance in Part 3 or bad availability in Part 3, not because they can't double in Endgame.

(the tier 2 speed cap is also an issue, since it prevents BEXPing Soren's speed to anything near a satisfactory level.)

I was actually going for +5 to tier 2 and 3 caps, though it didn't come out as such. And yes, they definitely need more speed growths. Soren probably needs a 50 growth in speed and Ilyana should get 45 or so. But that's what IS was going to get when they decided caps and growths via a dartboard.

[Anouleth]

I'd argue about Soren, but I'm not allowed to argue half-points.

The problem is, IS Nerfed him in this game. :(

They nerfed all the sages with their pathetic speed caps. 30 (Ilyana) is simply bad, and even 32 (Soren/Bastian) is pretty awful. They're supposed to be fast, darn it.

If anything holds back Sages, it's bad speed base and speed growth. Ilyana and Soren may have awful speed caps, but they barely reach them on average, so it's not like raising them would help. In addition, all the Sages are rated low for either bad performance in Part 3 or bad availability in Part 3, not because they can't double in Endgame.

(the tier 2 speed cap is also an issue, since it prevents BEXPing Soren's speed to anything near a satisfactory level.)

I was actually going for +5 to tier 2 and 3 caps, though it didn't come out as such. And yes, they definitely need more speed growths. Soren probably needs a 50 growth in speed and Ilyana should get 45 or so. But that's what IS was going to get when they decided caps and growths via a dartboard.

It's only 5 less than his PoR growth. Soren probably needs 19 base speed with a 45% growth and 25 cap. That bumps his speed growth into his highest after he starts capping stats, so he can take better advantage of BEXP. (To be honest, we could give Soren 23 base speed and he still wouldn't be High, since his durability is just that awful.)

I'd say Ilyana should have 40 and stick with the DB through Part 3. She can use fire magic on the laguz and they all have shitty res, which is way better than her current fail. She'd be like a Leonardo that doesn't need Beastfoe.

Bastian is fine as he is. Even if his speed was capped, it would have next to no impact on his performance (better durability vs Cats/Ravens in 4-5, better damage vs 4-E-1 Generals but still not dealing enough). The only stat he wants more of is Magic, so he can OHKO 4-5 stuff more comfortably.

Calill needs more CRK chapters. Oh, and maybe a 20 speed base instead of 18.

Tormod needs Part 3 availability. If he joins in 3-P, he's Soren that does less damage and needs less BEXP. Which is good.

[RNG Princess]

Astrid > Fiona > Meg

Think of them as them giving gifts.

Astrid lets anyone in your team take Paragon. Paragon > a steel & iron sword. iirc Astrid won't get doubled, Meg will. Also Astrid can make good use of paragon while its unremoveable, she can hit and run to safety. Weakening enemies is good since only Geoffrey can kill them, but his lance is better conserved, and not killing the enemies = more Bexp and Astrid won't be killing anyone but deal damage and gain fair exp.

Fiona doesn't have to fight to be useful. She has savior, which is good for rescuing units. Its more useful in that part 3 swamp chapter. Actually she doesn't even need it.

Meg is stuck to poor mobilty, she can't be a wall without dying, she can't move to safety, she has to fight to be useable.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Bryan]

Astrid > Fiona > Meg

Think of them as them giving gifts.

Astrid lets anyone in your team take Paragon. Paragon > a steel & iron sword. iirc Astrid won't get doubled, Meg will. Also Astrid can make good use of paragon while its unremoveable, she can hit and run to safety.

Fiona doesn't have to fight to be useful. She has canto, which is good for rescuing units. Its more useful in that part 3 swamp chapter.

Meg is stuck to poor mobilty, she can't be a wall without dying, she can't move to safety, she has to fight to be useable.

Fiona gives Imbue. o.o

[RNG Princess]

ah i get it mixed up :3

[Fayt Zelpher]

Astrid > Fiona > Meg

Think of them as them giving gifts.

Astrid lets anyone in your team take Paragon. Paragon > a steel & iron sword. iirc Astrid won't get doubled, Meg will. Also Astrid can make good use of paragon while its unremoveable, she can hit and run to safety.

Fiona doesn't have to fight to be useful. She has canto, which is good for rescuing units. Its more useful in that part 3 swamp chapter.

Meg is stuck to poor mobilty, she can't be a wall without dying, she can't move to safety, she has to fight to be useable.

Fiona gives Imbue. o.o

And savior too. But I still think that Astrid > Fiona if for no other reason than the fact that Astrid is playable (though still pretty awful) due to the fact that she'll gain a good amount of CExp in 2-3 and 3-9. Paragon helps with that, plus it's easily the best gift, although imbue and savior are both nice to have. I still think that small combat ability + paragon > no combat ability + imbue + savior.

And, of course, it's irrelevant anyway. Lyre is easily to worst unit in the game. At least Meg starts at a low enough level and has high speed growth, meaning she can eventually hold her own, and Fiona has her gifts (skills). No one can match Lyre's awfulness.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[RNG Princess]

thats true, poor Lyre :(

she's my favorite Laguz anyway