Magic the Gathering: Radiant Dawn

[Original Alear]

I am very much enjoying this very enlightening discussion on the merits of flipping coins VS rolling X-sided dies.

[Narga_Rocks]

I am very much enjoying this very enlightening discussion on the merits of flipping coins VS rolling X-sided dies.

Good to know. Glad I could be helpful. (I'm pretending that your sentence doesn't make me think you are being sarcastic)

[Anouleth]

Well, rolling die is even worse than flipping coins, since while people will generally always have a coin on them, a d4 or a d8 is far less likely.

Flipping coins is just annoying; it breaks the flow of the game, it may force people to rummage through their pockets for a coin, and it can take a while. Having to flip 5 coins every time Zihark gets blocked will get old very fast.

And in ANY case, flipping coins is what red players do. Not even all red players - only the silly ones.

[Progenitus]

coin flipping breaks the flow of the game? how? it only should take a few seconds. And I daresay things like searching your library for soemthing can be more time consuming.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, rolling die is even worse than flipping coins, since while people will generally always have a coin on them, a d4 or a d8 is far less likely.

I know this. If you have it then it is easier. Otherwise, it is clearly not. However, since the probabilities are identical, that doesn't matter. When the dice are available, one can roll. When the dice aren't, one can flip coins.

Flipping coins is just annoying; it breaks the flow of the game, it may force people to rummage through their pockets for a coin, and it can take a while. Having to flip 5 coins every time Zihark gets blocked will get old very fast.

Very tedious. Yes. I'm not sure if it is "impractical", though.

However, wouldn't they have 7 coins out already because they know the other person has Aran? Or better yet, shouldn't the person planning on using Aran have 7 coins ready? You know he'll get attacked eventually, so you may as well get them ready if you intend to use him.

And in ANY case, flipping coins is what red players do. Not even all red players - only the silly ones.

Huh?

[catastrophe_2]

And in ANY case, flipping coins is what red players do. Not even all red players - only the silly ones.

Huh?

Cards that require Coin Flipping are usually Red cards, since Red seems to have a thing for randomness and chaos.

Although I do agree that flipping 5 or 7 Coins kills the game. Imagine if I gang-block Zi with 5 Saprolings. Zi kills 2 of them with First Strike Damage, and the 3 others deal combat damage to Zi. Flip 15 Coins anyone? That's even worse than Hive Mind.

I think it would be better if Avoid would become a Clash variant. "Whenever Zihark would be dealt damage by a source an opponent controls, clash with the opponent. If you win, prevent that damage. (Clash rules blah blah)" Faster and simpler.

Edit: On a sidenote, Power-Creep ahoy!

Edited December 14, 2009 by catastrophe_2

[Progenitus]

i changed the coin flipping to "up to that many coins". So if you get a heads or something on the first flip then you don't need to flip anymore.

and is that card real? lolwut

[Original Alear]

I am very much enjoying this very enlightening discussion on the merits of flipping coins VS rolling X-sided dies.

Good to know. Glad I could be helpful. (I'm pretending that your sentence doesn't make me think you are being sarcastic)

I am not being sarcastic. I am sincere when I say I am enjoying it.

[Progenitus]

[Victor Fang]

Pelleas and Sanaki are not fail.

[Progenitus]

Well, they fail about as bad as Meg.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, does Sanaki instantly die every time she is played? I don't quite understand the description.

If so, you may as well power up her attack stat to better reflect her in game power. 50%+ damage to everything in the game (RD) at first (60% or more to many). Skrimir has a 10 and aside from the paladins in his first chapter he doesn't double or ORKO either, so she may as well get like a 6 or something. It's not like she can use it because of the whole instant death thing.

(edit: he has 54 mt and she has 46 mt, but she attacks res. def-res in 4-3 is 4 for halbs, 7 or 8 for warriors, ~3 for Swordmasters, 5 for snipers, 15 or 16 for dragonmasters, 8 or 9 for the two generals, and Skrimir doubles none of them. Their power is disturbingly close when we aren't looking at 4-P.)

If it's not instant death, she could still stand to get a power boost, just I suppose the cost of using her would have to increase for her to not be too good for her cost.

Oh, and Pelleas at least is fail. (This was in response to the guy not smash)

As for Sanaki, I'd suggest "Female Frail Empress" rather than "Female Fail Empress", but whatever. I don't have big issues with the description. His descriptions here tend to be amusing enough that I usually choose not to take issue with them.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

She instantly dies if any opponent has a creature out

She has magic, which is effectively 2 extra damage so that should be fine

[Narga_Rocks]

She instantly dies if any opponent has a creature out

So basically, instant death. I kinda thought so. Pelleas is also instant death, right?

She has magic, which is effectively 2 extra damage so that should be fine

I forgot the magic thing, but it is still only 5 total. Far cry from Skrimir's. It isn't as if she can actually use it or anything. She could have a 5 for effective 7. She'd still die instantly and never be able to use that 7, so it isn't as if she'd be too strong for her cost. And it would at least be closer to a unit that she approximately ties mt on a lot of enemies in RD.

[Progenitus]

You have to remember, she's only 2 mana and skrimir is 8. She can't have too much attack even with that loldrawback

Pelleas is only instant death if you played him from your hand, since there are other ways to get him onto the battlefield without saccing him.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Narga_Rocks]

You have to remember, she's only 2 mana and skrimir is 8. She can't have too much attack even with that loldrawback

Maybe I'm not completely understanding the drawback. Can she ever actually use her 3+2 to do anything right now? If she can, then her 3+2 is fine. A cost of 2 obviously can't have too much strength. I was just under the impression that she can't make use of that 3+2 at all. And if she can't make use of her 3+2 at all, I figured 3+2 would be equivalent to 20+2.

I suppose there may be cards out there that would prevent her death even if her drawback should normally cause her death. In which case, 3+2 is again probably okay. (not that it reflects her RD power, but that it works for MTG in terms of being a balanced card)

Yeah, I suppose Pelleas says "from your hand". Of course, he is just as weak here as he is in the game. 1+2 I'm assuming is kinda crap. Even for 2 mana. (edit: Which is obviously how he should be)

Also, I'm assuming laguzfoe increases damage caused on anything laguz? Looks like triple. What about flying units? She can use Arcwind/Arcthunder at base.

Or would letting her triple damage on those also make her too strong for 2 mana?

Also, I need order of operations on Magic and <name>foe.

Is it

3 x 3 + 2 = 11 or

(3+2) x 3 = 15

against laguz that don't have magic (which is probably going to be all of them except maybe Lehran).

And finally, are any of the other sages getting laguzfoe?

Edited December 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Sanaki can't really do anything (or rather, she's really, really limited. your opponent would have to run little to no creatures), that's part of the whole point about being a fail creature. Similarly for Pelleas

I'm not giving Sanaki Flyingfoe and dragonfoe on top of laguzfoe, it just makes the card look kind of cluttered. ditto for the other mages. Speaking of which, I went back and made changes to lots of characters (giving mages Xfoe for a certain enemy type, changing creature types of several characters to types that actually exist in the real magic game - e.g. mage/sage/archsage -> wizards, etc), so I'll repost them once I finish all the PCs.

I'm not 100% sure about the order of operations, but I think if a card has multiple abilities that trigger at the same time, you resolve them from the top down. In other words, if Magic is listed before Xfoe, then Magic will trigger first, increasing damage by 2, and then Xfoe will trigger, tripling the damage.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Narga_Rocks]

I still like "Female Frail Empress" more, but it's not important. And I agree giving 3 different <name>foes starts to look cluttered, though many of the legendaries are kinda cluttered too.

And using a top down order seems simple enough.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to raise her power anymore, but since it seems she really can't use her power anyway, that's why I thought a little more wouldn't matter any even though she only costs 2 mana. But I guess if she can use it at all ever in any way then letting her be stronger would be bad.

[Naglfar]

Well, they fail about as bad as Meg.

Read the tier list. They're not THAT bad.

[Progenitus]

you mean the one here that I stopped caring about several months ago?

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, they fail about as bad as Meg.

Read the tier list. They're not THAT bad.

I was hoping to avoid that topic coming up in this thread. It tends to get, shall we say "less than friendly" when that kind of stuff gets brought up.

[cheetah7071]

@Narga: While Sanaki cannot deal her damage to creatures, she's perfectly capable of dealing it to players and Planeswalkers (a card type Smash hasn't made any of).

Her having Magic isn't completely useless because it lets her deal her +2 damage to players (though not planeswalkers). Laguzfoe is completely useless unless you find a way to prevent her from being sacrificed, because it only affects creatures.

[Narga_Rocks]

@Narga: While Sanaki cannot deal her damage to creatures, she's perfectly capable of dealing it to players and Planeswalkers (a card type Smash hasn't made any of).

Her having Magic isn't completely useless because it lets her deal her +2 damage to players (though not planeswalkers). Laguzfoe is completely useless unless you find a way to prevent her from being sacrificed, because it only affects creatures.

He is making her a "fail" creature. However I feel about that choice, making her this way means it is reasonable to make her useless. Though that's an interesting note about the players and Planeswalkers. Of course, it still requires that no creatures are even in play for the opposition. And giving her a useless skill (Laguzfoe) is also okay since she is a "fail" creature.

[Naglfar]

i changed the coin flipping to "up to that many coins". So if you get a heads or something on the first flip then you don't need to flip anymore.

and is that card real? lolwut

Very real. It was a recent Worldwake spoiler. I'm excited.

Well, they fail about as bad as Meg.

Read the tier list. They're not THAT bad.

I was hoping to avoid that topic coming up in this thread. It tends to get, shall we say "less than friendly" when that kind of stuff gets brought up.

If you say Sanaki and Pelleas are as bad as Meg, someone's going to disagree with you. That's like moving Astrid forward with her full move on the first turn of 2-3 and "hoping" she doesn't die.

I mean, both of them can be of use without putting themselves in danger, while Meg can't, unless you really don't need those Wind Edges. But yes, we can talk about this in some other thread.

[Progenitus]

meg vs sanaki/pelleas (and even sanaki vs pelleas) stems from the fact that different people use different standards when tiering units. frankly I'm just sick of all that arguing and flaming already.