Which Cavalier?

[Bryan]

I don't use Frey, I kill him normally (So I can get Norne.)

As many people know, I am shallow and only pick characters that look cool. Their Averages don't matter, because I hack.

So I use Cain & Abel. :D

[Hatari]

Lol, I don't hack, but still pick my main team from people that "look cool". Frey and Jargon (name check) look too old in all reality. The latter is dead, yay decoys, and Frey gets benched once he arena's 20/20.

[Colonel M]

In Cain's defense, while he'll never know the definition of a Ridersbane, there is still the Armorslayer for him. Granted, units such as Mages and Hammertime Barst can handle them.

[Interceptor]

Armorslayer is a fair point, regardless of Mages or Hammertime Barst (because if Cain can take care of an Armor, that means I could use those units for another enemy, which is extra flexbility).

The problem: Cain starts at D swords, not C. That means he needs 23 battles with a sword in hand in order to be able to use Armorslayer. Not only is that a helluva lot of combat with a weapon type that's not even that good, it takes away from his training with lances, which makes Ridersbane show up even later than usual.

Hell, if you want a Cavalier who can use Armorslayer, look no further than a reclassed Navarre, who can pull it off without any of the suck that Cain has to go through, because he starts with C swords as a Myrmidon.

[Rodykitty]

I disagree with using Social Knight!Navarre for Armor Slaying utility. He starts out with only base 6 Speed, not enough to double even 3 AS Armor Knights with an Armor Slayer. You are best off keeping him as Swordfighter or simply using Oguma for Armor Slayer until Hardin has gained the ability to use Armor Slayer himself.

[Interceptor]

It takes quite some time before AKs get past their humble 3/4 AS origins. Sure, Navarre can't double them immediately, but you do get him in Ch3 (Armorslayer doesn't show up until part way through Ch6, unforged no less) which gives him some time to grow into the job and proc some STR/SPD.

Point being, even Cain's modest potential here is worth less than it would seem. And an argument for Ogma against Navarre is also one against Cain, which suits this soldier just fine.

[Colonel M]

Actually I wonder if using a combination of Cain and Hardin would be more acceptable. It tosses out the support opportunity, but with Cain being able to wield Armorslayer and Hardin being able to wield Ridersbane, it's at least helping the team in a sense (and it isn't hogging CEXP like Cain and Abel POSSIBLY would in the earlier chapters). Either way, Cain becomes much much better than Social Knight!Navarre anyway, but I guess Navarre can be useful earlygame w/Armorslayer potential.

[shroudening]

Neither. I typically don't use paladins for FE11.

[Galenforcer]

Any. Their all good. Use none of them for some challedge.

[Inui]

Abel, Cain, and Hardin are all pretty much top tier right below the broken tier of Zagarro and Wolf. I only ever played H5 and found that using those guys can turn the game into a joke.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

Cain commits the supreme sin of starting with E Lances, though. Abel and Hardin are better choices than him, even though there is only one Ridersbane for a long time anyways.

[Interceptor]

Abel, Cain, and Hardin are all pretty much top tier right below the broken tier of Zagarro and Wolf. I only ever played H5 and found that using those guys can turn the game into a joke.

Is there some language that I can speak that will allow logic to penetrate your Reality Distortion Field<tm>? Never mind Sedgar and Wolf, none of those three units have anywhere near the effect on efficient game completion as even the likes of Barst and Caeda. The Cavs are decent enough, and it's worth picking one just for mount-blicking (especially Hardin), but they are not turning the game into a joke. Unless, of course, you find it funny to have a unit that fails to double for a long time, and fails to reliably kill things, in which case deploying three Cavaliers will probably make you laugh hard enough to wet your pants.

Once again: Ridersbane is the one thing that saves Cavalier from obscurity. Their 2-range game is thoroughly underwhelming (both HIT-wise and damage-wise), Swords are terrible outside of utility use (the only way for them to threaten an Armor at all), and none of them are fast enough to double speedier enemy units until you are either well into the game or throw a Speedwing/early Seal on them.

For chrissakes, I would not even consider the Cavs as good as Cord or Draug, and even Merric is competitive with his king 2-range game plus EKUSUKARIBA utility.

[CATS]

Yeah, Cain is garbage because he has E Lances, it takes too long for him to use Ridersbane.

Abel and Hardin are rly good though and OHKO lots of stuff with the Ridersbane and make things easier. Cavaliers and horsemen are the most annoying enemies aside from fliers after all. Using two cavaliers of your own lets you trade the Ridersbane and OHKO two enemies in one turn, for great justice.

Edited February 4, 2010 by CATS

[Inui]

Uh... Getting him to a D in lances by the time enemy Cavaliers showed up in numbers that mattered was never a problem for me. I agree with CATS that Abel and Hardin are better, but I see definite benefits in raising up Cain.

I like using bottom tier, anyways. On my H5 runs, I typically field Jeigan and Wendel for the whole game and add George, Astoria, Minerva, Midea, etc. as full-time units.

[Mekkah]

Uh... Getting him to a D in lances by the time enemy Cavaliers showed up in numbers that mattered was never a problem for me.

He doesn't need D lances. He needs C. And enemy Cavaliers are dangerous even in small numbers. Of course, taking them down is not a problem because we all know where to put our Shiidas and Barsts and Jeigans and Hardins and even Marths in order to dispose of them quickly, it's just that being able to do so is a huge boon. Abel can't do it very quickly, and Cain can't do it for a long time.

I like using bottom tier, anyways. On my H5 runs, I typically field Jeigan and Wendel for the whole game and add George, Astoria, Minerva, Midea, etc. as full-time units.

This is relevant, because? Maybe you are looking for the prepromote thread?

[Interceptor]

Yeah, Cain is garbage because he has E Lances, it takes too long for him to use Ridersbane.

Abel and Hardin are rly good though and OHKO lots of stuff with the Ridersbane and make things easier. Cavaliers and horsemen are the most annoying enemies aside from fliers after all. Using two cavaliers of your own lets you trade the Ridersbane and OHKO two enemies in one turn, for great justice.

God help you if the enemy Cavaliers don't cooperate by standing next to each other. And you don't even need to "use" two Cavaliers to do this, since any moron with C Lances can OHKO someone with a forged Bane, meaning that you can give normal CEXP to a better unit, and only use your emergency Cav as a Ridersbot.

Uh... Getting him to a D in lances by the time enemy Cavaliers showed up in numbers that mattered was never a problem for me. I agree with CATS that Abel and Hardin are better, but I see definite benefits in raising up Cain.

Pardon me, Two Years Tennis Experience, for interrupting your latest CATS huggle, but agreeing with his banal contribution to this thread means that you also agree with the person who made the same point before him, which in this case would be me.

More substantively, D lances does not allow Cain to use Ridersbane, which is a C rank weapon. So unless Javelins have suddenly become effective weapons on mounted units when I wasn't looking, getting D lances by the time enemy Cavaliers show up "in numbers" does squat for Cain other than maybe letting him whiff them uncountered.

I like using bottom tier, anyways. On my H5 runs, I typically field Jeigan and Wendel for the whole game and add George, Astoria, Minerva, Midea, etc. as full-time units.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that your ignorance of high tier units also means that you have no idea what Bottom tier units are, either. Wendell as Bottom tier? In what universe? He has a ton of utility, seeing as he's a prepromote that can freely reclass into whatever you need, can use EKUSUKARIBA at base, staff healing at 6MV, a crazy high base SPD, etc. His lategame failure due to growths is all that keeps him out of the cool kid's table.

Jeorge is also quite useful, seeing as how at base level he's a gnat's pubic hair away from A bows and Parthia, instant death to fliers at all times, a good anti-Mage unit with Longbow, and decent chip damage even when he's failing to double. Minerva needs... a Speedwing, and she's cooking with fire, since auto-Hauteclere, her choice of 1-2 range weapons, and a decent shot at eventually getting Ridersblick is actually not that bad at all.

Well, at least the other units are terrible.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Interceptor

[CATS]

Who else besides cavaliers would get C in lances? Jeigan is the only one I can think of. I guess we are better off using him for a long time instead of Abel or Hardin, you make a good point.

I am confused by your attempt to downplay the usefulness of trading the Ridersbane, however. If it is useless to have multiple Ridersbane users, then what would make Abel so much better than Cain, aside from the first few chapters? Cain can get a D in lances by chapter 4 or 5 easily enough, and you have Hardin to use the Ridersbane either way. Though I suppose we can return to your earlier point that it is better to just use Jeigan, since any moron with C Lances can OHKO someone with a forged Bane, in which case Abel and Cain are both worthless and crappy.

[Interceptor]

Who else besides cavaliers would get C in lances? Jeigan is the only one I can think of. I guess we are better off using him for a long time instead of Abel or Hardin, you make a good point.

There is nothing wrong with using Abel or Hardin. I just wouldn't use both of them at once. In the odd scenario where I needed a second Riderbane for something, any dumbshit unit is fine for one turn. Jagen is ideal due to needing no training at all, but the choices are limited only by the effort you want to put into it, because someone with D Lances can get to C just by chipping with Javelins (which isn't a harmful strategy). Even Wendell can manage it.

There is also the possibility of a non-Cavalier Lance user, like General Sedgar/Wolf. We all know that they have bad offense in this class, but at the same time are highly likely to be able to use Ridersbane. Caeda is a lancer, but naturally she wants nothing to do with that turd of a weapon when she has Wing Spear.

And then there is your favorite option, Xane, assuming you don't need it Right Now<tm>.

I am confused by your attempt to downplay the usefulness of trading the Ridersbane, however. If it is useless to have multiple Ridersbane users, then what would make Abel so much better than Cain, aside from the first few chapters? Cain can get a D in lances by chapter 4 or 5 easily enough, and you have Hardin to use the Ridersbane either way. Though I suppose we can return to your earlier point that it is better to just use Jeigan, since any moron with C Lances can OHKO someone with a forged Bane, in which case Abel and Cain are both worthless and crappy.

I don't know why you are confused, because it was a straightforward point. Enemies can sometimes, but not always position themselves for a double-kill. A good example where this happens: Ch 10, outside the front door. In that chapter, I routinely do something like have Abecadin OHKO something, Cord takes the Ridersbane and shoots someone else for a clean or near ORKO, and then Sedgar takes the Ridersbane from Cord and OHKOs a third mount. Caeda pops the last one. Result: four dead enemies, no damage taken, not possible without trading or using more units. But this is a niche scenario that can be filled by almost anyone. If I could not have gotten Sedgar in there, I could have perhaps used Jagen instead, and it would not require that Jagen be trained.

Abel is NOT "so much better" than Cain. Abel just has an edge because of the earlygame realities of Cain not having 2-range. Cain's swording is actually somewhat useful. There should never be any daylight between them on a tier list. They are not crappy, they are just both meh-bags.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

In H5, Abel, Cain, and Hardin are all great units.

[Thor Odinson]

Abel is my personal Javelin God.

No joke, he has an A in lance in H5 and it's only CH7 for me. And he is one of the three characters who can tank as of CH7.

I use all three on Normal, though. Both on hard.

Partially because my thing for Paladins and also Cain comes out ridiculously good on Gaiden for me. Max STR and 19 DEF. Not bad at all.

Abel still remains my favorite. Frey's just good all around.

Abel has a habit of getting blessed in ridiculous amounts in one or more areas, though. For me anyway.