Using prepromotes

[Inui]

You forget that Night of Farewells is quite a lengthy chapter, good sir. They will have their A in the early parts of Cog of Destiny if you want them to, even without hurting Tactics. At worse, they have a B and are getting the A midway in the chapter.

[Tangerine]

You forget that Night of Farewells is quite a lengthy chapter, good sir. They will have their A in the early parts of Cog of Destiny if you want them to, even without hurting Tactics. At worse, they have a B and are getting the A midway in the chapter.

I'm calling you that from now on, Red ;).

[Florete]

You forget that Night of Farewells is quite a lengthy chapter, good sir. They will have their A in the early parts of Cog of Destiny if you want them to, even without hurting Tactics. At worse, they have a B and are getting the A midway in the chapter.

Let's see.

Pale Flower of Darkness: Harken appears on or after (can't quite remember) turn 9, should be done by turn 13-15 I'd say, maybe sooner if you're fast. That's not 11 turns, so there's no chance of building a C.

Battle Before Dawn: 15 turn limit isn't helping you here. You already mentioned that unmounted units suck here, so I assume that means the mounts are heading out fast and Harken won't be next to Isadora for the majority of the time. It may depend on how fast PFoD was cleared, but they still might not even reach 11 turns for C here.

Night of Farewells: Lengthy, yes, but not enough to make up for the ~40 turns remaining if you want an A anytime soon. And if they didn't already have C, there is literally no chance of having an A in CoD.

I'm calling you that from now on, Red ;)

No you are not.

[Tangerine]

No you are not.

Awww. What happened to "you can call me whatever you want" :P?

[Anouleth]

You forget that Night of Farewells is quite a lengthy chapter, good sir. They will have their A in the early parts of Cog of Destiny if you want them to, even without hurting Tactics. At worse, they have a B and are getting the A midway in the chapter.

... How long do you take on your chapters? Night of Farewells is long, but it's not 30 turns long.

Isadora isn't even considered to be good, so I don't see why you're assuming we'll use her.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Anouleth

[Inui]

How is them getting their A midway through Cog of Destiny not feasible?

Isadora is good.

Stolen from CATS:

18 Dorcas: 16 Str, 9 Spd----42 Hp, 6.75 Def, 2.25 Res, 27 Avo

15 Rebecca: 9.6 Str, 14.4 Spd----25.4 Hp, 5.1 Def, 5.2 Res, 39.8 Avo

Base Isadora: 13 Str, 16 Spd----28 Hp, 8 Def, 6 Res, 42 Avo, triple weapons, 8 move

20/2 Dorcas: 18.8 Str, 9.6 Spd----47.4 Hp, 10.5 Def, 5.7 Res, 29.4 Avo

20/1 Rebecca: 14.6 Str, 18.4 Spd----32.4 Hp, 7.85 Def, 8.7 Res, 50.3 Avo

3 Isadora: 13.6 Str, 17 Spd----29.5 Hp, 8.4 Def, 6.5, 44.9 Avo, triple weapons, 8 move

Isadora's offense is probably more notable than her durability. A combined Str/Spd of 29 is very high for the chapter she joins in. Kent, for example, will not reach that figure until he hits 20/0. Sain has to be 16/0 to match that. Eliwood won't get it until he promotes. etc. It is mitigated somewhat by her poor Con, but still quite impressive for a unit that, according to the tier list, is mediocre at best and below average overall.

[dondon151]

I did not get HarkenxIsadora to A until midway through Victory or Death on my 0% growths run, and I was quite literally willing to give up efficiency to keep them adjacent to each other.

Inui, quite a bit has changed from what you're used to.

[Inui]

Uh... Why are you blasting through things that quickly? That hurts Experience too much. Well, even if you don't care about, going that fast is pointless. Harken x Isadora A is feasible in Cog of Destiny, yet you didn't get it until midway through Victory or Death? Wtf?

51 turns

End of Pale Flower of Darkness

Battle Before Dawn

Night of Farewells (long chapter)

Cog of Destiny (long chapter)

And you can't get them together for 51 turns even when trying? Whaaaa?

Furthermore, you get an additional chapter after that before VoD to build it and then some short little 5 turn thing.

[Florete]

Uh... Why are you blasting through things that quickly? That hurts Experience too much. Well, even if you don't care about, going that fast is pointless. Harken x Isadora A is feasible in Cog of Destiny, yet you didn't get it until midway through Victory or Death? Wtf?

51 turns

End of Pale Flower of Darkness

Battle Before Dawn

Night of Farewells (long chapter)

Cog of Destiny (long chapter)

And you can't get them together for 51 turns even when trying? Whaaaa?

Furthermore, you get an additional chapter after that before VoD to build it and then some short little 5 turn thing.

51 turns in (practically) 3 maps.

Oh yeah, that's totally reasonable. I'm totally willing to glue the two together for 17 turns per map.

Wait, that's not reasonable at all. I'll echo.

Inui, quite a bit has changed from what you're used to.

[Inui]

The dude said midway through VoD. That means 5 chapters. 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 0.5. Then you can plant them together for 5 turns in the sidequest where you buy stuff.

Stop trying to say I'm some old school debater left in the dust. It seems like you people are implying that I'm using some old method of thinking that was somehow invalidated and you're on some intellectual pedestal above me or some shit, lol. It's irritating. I've been debating with CATS and others on FEFF this whole time and he's WAY better at FE debating than anyone here. >_>;

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

The dude said midway through VoD. That means 5 chapters. 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 0.5. Then you can plant them together for 5 turns in the sidequest where you buy stuff.

You said it was feasible in Cog of Destiny. Are you taking that back now?

And he said he did get the A in Victory or Death, so I don't know why you're acting like we're saying it can't happen there.

Stop trying to say I'm some old school debater left in the dust. It seems like you people are implying that I'm using some old method of thinking that was somehow invalidated and you're on some intellectual pedestal above me or some shit, lol. It's irritating. I've been debating with CATS and others on FEFF this whole time and he's WAY better at FE debating than anyone here. >_>;

I'm saying it as it is. We've changed. We don't debate the way you used to. Get used to it or leave. Stop being elitist yourself if you don't want us to rag on you.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

That's too late, midway in VoD. It should happen midway in CoD unless you're doing a speedrun, which I find lame.

I don't find it not feasible in CoD at all, even going by FE 7's strict Tactics requirements.

I'm saying it as it is. We've changed. We don't debate the way you used to. Get used to it or leave. Stop being elitist yourself if you don't want us to rag on you.

I'd hardly call the way you debate better, so...

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

That's too late, midway in VoD. It should happen midway in CoD unless you're doing a speedrun, which I find lame.

Or if you're playing the way we debate here. We're long past the idea that supports can be built so easily in FE7. Get used to it.

I don't find it not feasible in CoD at all, even going by FE 7's strict Tactics requirements.

Then you're an idiot.

I'd hardly call the way you debate better, so...

Bye.

[Inui]

Holy shit you're an asshole, lmao. Wow. Like, I'm an elitist prick a lot, but I don't treat people like that too often, if ever.

This isn't even debate anymore. Lame.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Rodykitty]

You're an old school (more like archaic) debater left in the dust that's using some old method of thinking that's now invalidated.

[Inui]

You're an old school (more like archaic) debater left in the dust that's using some old method of thinking that's now invalidated.

100% false. It's only invalidated based on opinion-based standards you adhere to and created for yourselves. FEFF's debaters are definitely way better, btw. CATS, Reikken, Solid, me, Reaver, HJ...waaaaaaaay better than the dudes here, even though we use an "archaic" system. Oh, wait, it's the system the game provides and it makes perfect sense.

My bad for not liking speed-runs that create artificial difficulty and make supports meaningless and make raising up units for long-term gain pointless. When the best of the best (Reikken, CATS, Solid) start debating your way, then perhaps I'll care more. Until then...I'm content with not debating about speed-runs. I'm not insulting you for your style, so it'd be nice if people didn't insult me for mine.

[Junkhead]

You're an old school (more like archaic) debater left in the dust that's using some old method of thinking that's now invalidated.

Please, don't insult each other. I know this is FE debating but that type of behaviour just has to stop, respect yourselves mutually, the cause of insults is what usually makes either debaters quit due to the fact they can no longer bear more insults. So please.

[Inui]

Thanks, but I don't think anyone has to worry about me running away over insults on the Internet. Those that know me will agree. :)

I do wish that people would just debate instead of troll and flame, though. That's for sure.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

Holy shit you're an asshole, lmao.

Red Fox is an asshole? You should have been here for Blacken before he got banned.

As for the topic itself, I use some of them. There was a point in time in which I didn't use them very much except for earlygame maps.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Black Soldier of Chaos

[Blademaster!]

I generally like to at least keep one prepromote on my team for the final chapter, or at least use them for a while. I also like to do prepromote only runs to, and those are a lot of fun.

[Mekkah]

CATS, Reikken, Solid, me, Reaver, HJ

CATS and Reikken don't have anywhere near your attitude and had no problem arguing among the same lines as "us". The others aren't around at all anymore, though even if they were, Reaver wasn't very good at debating to begin with. And that doesn't even have anything to do with how good you are at debating. Look at how badly you performed on this FE8 tournament on FEP.

[Narga_Rocks]

100% false. It's only invalidated based on opinion-based standards you adhere to and created for yourselves. FEFF's debaters are definitely way better, btw. CATS, Reikken, Solid, me, Reaver, HJ...waaaaaaaay better than the dudes here, even though we use an "archaic" system. Oh, wait, it's the system the game provides and it makes perfect sense.

My bad for not liking speed-runs that create artificial difficulty and make supports meaningless and make raising up units for long-term gain pointless. When the best of the best (Reikken, CATS, Solid) start debating your way, then perhaps I'll care more. Until then...I'm content with not debating about speed-runs. I'm not insulting you for your style, so it'd be nice if people didn't insult me for mine.

Stop calling things speed-runs when they aren't. A speed-run relies on RNG abuse and a few other interesting things to clear out a map as fast as possible if the RNG does almost everything you want it to do. Efficient play basically means to have a reliable strategy that will cut down your turns every time unless the RNG pulls off some one in ten thousand chance to screw you over. As a result, inflexibility created from forcing units to stand adjacent 80% of the time has the potential to slow you down. Anything that slows you down is a problem for an efficiency tier list, since if you can safely go faster that is better. Also, it is no more "artificial difficulty" than ranks. One is suggested by the creator of the game (ranks), the other is suggested by players that want to see which characters can best assist in efficient completion of the game. It also doesn't result in making supports meaningless nor does it result in making raising up units pointless. Stop insisting untrue things are true. It's quite annoying.

Also, we do find it worth it to sacrifice 2 or 3 turns early if it will save 5 or more turns later (similarly, it is also worth it to save 5 or more turns early even if it causes a sacrifice of 2 or 3 turns later on. In either case, the net savings is positive). The problem is, there aren't very many situations in which sacrificing turns in one spot saves turns in another spot. Chances are, those 5 turns you "save" could also be "saved" by using a different strategy throughout the game that doesn't sacrifice 2 or 3 turns anywhere.

If you want to debate on a list established with those ideals in mind, then if you don't debate within that context your posts are meaningless. Simple as that. There are plenty of places to post that use other philosophies.

[Inui]

Red Fox is an asshole? You should have been here for Blacken before he got banned.

As for the topic itself, I use some of them. There was a point in time in which I didn't use them very much except for earlygame maps.

I know who Blacken is.

CATS and Reikken don't have anywhere near your attitude and had no problem arguing among the same lines as "us". The others aren't around at all anymore, though even if they were, Reaver wasn't very good at debating to begin with. And that doesn't even have anything to do with how good you are at debating. Look at how badly you performed on this FE8 tournament on FEP.

Solid is still posting at FEFF and Reaver got significantly better and HJ is amazing. When did I perform poorly in an FE 8 debate tournament? Did I drop out or something? I've taken top 3 in all of them ever and beat CATS before and was beating Reikken before he quit in an FE 6 one. =/

I'm still trying to get how you guys debate. Still seems like speed-runs to me since you're sacrificing anything for finishing quickly.

[Rodykitty]

Please, don't insult each other. I know this is FE debating but that type of behaviour just has to stop, respect yourselves mutually, the cause of insults is what usually makes either debaters quit due to the fact they can no longer bear more insults. So please.

I will do as I please.

100% false. It's only invalidated based on opinion-based standards you adhere to and created for yourselves.

Prove that modern tier lists are opinion based, other than what the person that runs the tier list decides what arguments to accept as fact.

FEFF's debaters are definitely way better, btw. CATS, Reikken, Solid, me, Reaver, HJ...waaaaaaaay better than the dudes here, even though we use an "archaic" system. Oh, wait, it's the system the game provides and it makes perfect sense.

Why are they better, and why does this suddenly undo the evolution that tier lists went through? We didn't suddenly decide to be different, it was actually heavily debated how things would be done over time.

My bad for not liking speed-runs that create artificial difficulty and make supports meaningless and make raising up units for long-term gain pointless.

Ranking is artificial difficulty. A speed run is not artificial difficulty, just a testament to someone's skill, but like everyone else has said these tier lists are not purely speed runs, but about a character's ability to get the most out of every turn.

For a character to level up, they need to be useful enough to score level ups by themselves. There is no "going for EXP rank" to justify babying units, only having a good plan to distribute EXP while clearing chapters.

I'm still trying to get how you guys debate. Still seems like speed-runs to me since you're sacrificing anything for finishing quickly.

If it provides useful results and has a low enough opportunity cost, then the use of resources are justified, regardless of whether we're finishing quickly or not. All ranking does for tier lists is limit a character's maximum usefulness.

[Tangerine]

100% false. It's only invalidated based on opinion-based standards you adhere to and created for yourselves. FEFF's debaters are definitely way better, btw. CATS, Reikken, Solid, me, Reaver, HJ...waaaaaaaay better than the dudes here, even though we use an "archaic" system. Oh, wait, it's the system the game provides and it makes perfect sense.

So you're better than everyone here because you prefer your system. Adapt or get out, nobody here cares what you think. I didn't like efficient play when I first joined at all, but at least instead of getting into random arguments about how stupid it is I got into one that helped me understand the point and merit of the system more.

Oh and believe me, I've been debating with CATS and Reikken for years and neither of them share your thoughts. I wager they're getting quite the laugh out of your ignorance right now.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Tangerine