Proposed FE 6 HM tier list.

[Dat Nick]

Every time I've attempted to rank HM, I go to chapter 17I, hunker down for 60 turns, and abuse the arena.

Are you trolling or trying to make some sort of point with this?

[dondon151]

Of course I am. This trivializes tactics, funds, EXP, and combat to an extent. And survival is an auto-5 anyway.

[Inui]

Maybe I can buy Tate > Lott, but I can't really buy a tier difference due to Lott's massive durability in both routes and Bow gives him an opportunity to counterattack in Sacae often while Tate has to fight for a Delphi Shield or get raped by everything that wields a bow (or comes eerily close). Not to mention Lott's >10 chapters of near-positive contributions to make up for "some" of his losses.I'd also argue Thany > OJ but I might do so later.

Agreed, which is why I won't put a tier gap.

Don't forget that most of these chapters have armors, and lance wielding bosses, which your other units tend to fail against. Ward x Lot is a very fast support and can help against these bosses. Heck, what are your other options? Armorsloyer!Dieck? The only other good pair for bosses is Alan and Lance, more specifically Alan.

lol @ using Ward

Every time I've attempted to rank HM, I go to chapter 17I, hunker down for 60 turns, and abuse the arena.

That's nice.

Even with the lenient Tactics rank, us old school archaic crappy horrible debaters (such terrible ones as CATS, Solid, and Reikken that don't know what they're talking about) don't typically suggest arena abuse. Why? We still value efficiency. Finishing faster is better. Just...finishing faster at the cost of other ranks is not considered better, and that includes Experience, Power, Funds, etc.

[Deliriyum]

lol @ using Ward

Ward is viable unit until about chapter 7. He's lacking speed, but he really doesn't need speed to be useful in those chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's nice.

Even with the lenient Tactics rank, us old school archaic crappy horrible debaters (such terrible ones as CATS, Solid, and Reikken that don't know what they're talking about) don't typically suggest arena abuse. Why? We still value efficiency. Finishing faster is better. Just...finishing faster at the cost of other ranks is not considered better, and that includes Experience, Power, Funds, etc.

How is that not inconsistent? If you are going for ranks, all you have to do is hit those ranks. Asking for anything more makes the list no longer just about ranks. If you can finish in 500 turns instead of 600 turns, it's utterly pointless. You could use those 100 turns to arena abuse and support abuse and whatever else you can come up with to do in those 100 turns. If you want to make a list about ranks, it should not consider things like efficient completion. If you want efficient completion... Unless you are trying to go for some sort of hybrid tier list. In which case, the first post should say that.

[Inui]

Ward is viable unit until about chapter 7. He's lacking speed, but he really doesn't need speed to be useful in those chapters.

So if he's not viable anymore, he's not a good support partner for anyone at all.

How is that not inconsistent? If you are going for ranks, all you have to do is hit those ranks. Asking for anything more makes the list no longer just about ranks. If you can finish in 500 turns instead of 600 turns, it's utterly pointless. You could use those 100 turns to arena abuse and support abuse and whatever else you can come up with to do in those 100 turns. If you want to make a list about ranks, it should not consider things like efficient completion. If you want efficient completion... Unless you are trying to go for some sort of hybrid tier list. In which case, the first post should say that.

I believe it was shown that the extra room is around 80 turns, not this magical 300 or even 100 number people like to throw around.

Even if you have that room, a unit that allows you finish more quickly and not need such abuse is better. Why? They shave off turns for extra turns later on and give you more room for errors. If Marcus is shaving turns in the earlygame, those translate to extra turns you can take for use of the arena, building supports, or to make up for jams you might encounter due to enemies actually being quite strong and numerous later on, especially in Sacae. This is why Marcus is good besides just his earlygame power compared to the team.

It's not a hybrid list, but it doesn't take abuse into account, just a rather lenient Tactics ranks.

[Narga_Rocks]

So if he's not viable anymore, he's not a good support partner for anyone at all.

I believe it was shown that the extra room is around 80 turns, not this magical 300 or even 100 number people like to throw around.

Even if you have that room, a unit that allows you finish more quickly and not need such abuse is better. Why? They shave off turns for extra turns later on and give you more room for errors. If Marcus is shaving turns in the earlygame, those translate to extra turns you can take for use of the arena, building supports, or to make up for jams you might encounter due to enemies actually being quite strong and numerous later on, especially in Sacae. This is why Marcus is good besides just his earlygame power compared to the team.

It's not a hybrid list, but it doesn't take abuse into account, just a rather lenient Tactics ranks.

Um, I responded like that because you said

"That's nice.

Even with the lenient Tactics rank, us old school archaic crappy horrible debaters (such terrible ones as CATS, Solid, and Reikken that don't know what they're talking about) don't typically suggest arena abuse. Why? We still value efficiency. Finishing faster is better. Just...finishing faster at the cost of other ranks is not considered better, and that includes Experience, Power, Funds, etc."

in response to dondon saying he spends 60 turns in chapter 17I at the arena. Which is, clearly,

"Even if you have that room, a unit that allows you finish more quickly and not need such abuse is better. Why? They shave off turns for extra turns later on and give you more room for errors. If Marcus is shaving turns in the earlygame, those translate to extra turns you can take for use of the arena, building supports, or to make up for jams you might encounter due to enemies actually being quite strong and numerous later on, especially in Sacae. This is why Marcus is good besides just his earlygame power compared to the team."

So basically, you said to dondon that he can't spend time at the arena because you still value efficiency and that saving turns earlier allows you to spend time at the arena.

Do you not see the flaw in your position here?

Anyway, I said 100, someone else says 80. So be it. Dondon said 60. Last time I checked, 60<80. Tell me if I'm mistaken. (I'll grant that 100>80, though. ;) )

[Inui]

Oh, I see what you mean. It's just a unit that allows you to use those turns on someone else or somewhere else gets bonus points for that. Does Percival ever need to touch the arena? Nah. Bonus points for him, since he can let someone else use those turns.

[dondon151]

I believe it was shown that the extra room is around 80 turns, not this magical 300 or even 100 number people like to throw around.

I didn't throw around 100 or 300 turns; I specifically said 60 turns, which is enough to cover EXP and funds issues.

Even if you have that room, a unit that allows you finish more quickly and not need such abuse is better. Why? They shave off turns for extra turns later on and give you more room for errors. If Marcus is shaving turns in the earlygame, those translate to extra turns you can take for use of the arena, building supports, or to make up for jams you might encounter due to enemies actually being quite strong and numerous later on, especially in Sacae. This is why Marcus is good besides just his earlygame power compared to the team.

Then there is a double standard here when someone attempts to trivialize Thany's flying utility, even though that is what saves the most turns in the first 10 chapters of the game.

I suppose it would be logical to compensate for this by establishing a direct turn to EXP/funds ratio for extra amounts of turns saved. On an optimal arena abuse setup, one can probably get 3 characters to use the arena per turn. Assuming safe bets (say, 660G) and 24 EXP per enemy, that is about 1980G and 105 EXP earned per turn (the extra EXP coming from 3 heals).

[Deliriyum]

So if he's not viable anymore, he's not a good support partner for anyone at all.

But if Lot probably won't be getting used much after that point either, then it doesn't matter. They can support all they want in those chapters, and it wouldn't affect anyone else after they are out of use.

Edit: When I say "all they want" I mean, at least get a C so other people can still build supports.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Core

[Inui]

The problem is that she has nothing else and those shaved turns don't equate to more EXP or Funds or anything else since you can proceed at a normal pace and still have a few extra turns to kill reinforcements and things on. What she does isn't good enough for high tier.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

I must propose banning the arena, i.e. just state in the topic post that it is assumed that the player never, ever enters the arena. It does indeed seem like the possibility of dozens of turns of arena abuse can trivialize the game, similar to the warp staff in FE11.

Edited February 2, 2010 by CATS

[Candlejack]

mu ho ho ho wrong thread

Edited February 3, 2010 by Merlinus the Jew

[Ansem]

Clarine and Ellen?

Warp staff?

[Dat Nick]

I must propose banning the arena, i.e. just state in the topic post that it is assumed that the player never, ever enters the arena. It does indeed seem like the possibility of dozens of turns of arena abuse can trivialize the game, similar to the warp staff in FE11.

Warpskip was moreso tiered separately because the criteria did crap like auto-bottoming Catria which a lot of people considered dumb. Non-warpskip is actually probably easier.

[RNG Princess]

I never understood why Sue is considered horrible, I see her like Jill from Path of Radiance you need her to recruit her overrated significant other.

[Deliriyum]

I never understood why Sue is considered horrible, I see her like Jill from Path of Radiance you need her to recruit her overrated significant other.

Sue is always locked to 2 range because she will always be fragile. Being able to use swords upon promotion just means that she's eating a counter, when she's probably getting 2-3 hit KO'd. At least Shin has more hp and defense, while keeping the speed and strength up.

[Tangerine]

I believe it was shown that the extra room is around 80 turns, not this magical 300 or even 100 number people like to throw around.

100-120~ turns is a much more accurate number in my experience for the average playthrough, so I wouldn't say Narga is wrong. Nobody said you'd have 300 free turns either, but I guess you skipped over the post explaining that; no surprise there.

Combining efficiency with ranks makes no sense either. Ranks are inherently inefficient.

[Salad Utensil]

So Ray is in high because he is good Exp fodder and can potentially become a decent unit right? This train of logic means that Geese, Zeis, and Hugh should all move up a tier since they can all turn out decent when you set up tons of kills for them right and they all are under leveled anyway, yes? Ray's position above Tate and Lot just doesn't seem right. If there really is this ~100 turn span where you can just arena abuse, I'm not seeing why being under leveled with bad stats gives Ray instant high tier ability.

I'm not seeing why ranks would not take advantage of finishing every chapter ASAP so that more turns can be spent arena abusing for that EXP and Funds advantage (the most annoy ranks anyway). You are still playing efficiently every chapter except those with easy arena's to take advantage of right?

Edited February 3, 2010 by Brighton

[Just call me AL]

I never understood why Sue is considered horrible, I see her like Jill from Path of Radiance you need her to recruit her overrated significant other.

Sue is always locked to 2 range because she will always be fragile. Being able to use swords upon promotion just means that she's eating a counter, when she's probably getting 2-3 hit KO'd. At least Shin has more hp and defense, while keeping the speed and strength up.

And to add to that, her support list isn't very good. As I have said before, her supports either suck (read: Walt, Dayan) or don't want her (read: Shin because of Ice X Wind bonuses, Roy and Fae because of taking too long and having the movement gap).

[Narga_Rocks]

If there really is this ~100 turn span where you can just arena abuse, I'm not seeing why being under leveled with bad stats gives Ray instant high tier ability.

I'm not seeing why ranks would not take advantage of finishing every chapter ASAP so that more turns can be spent arena abusing for that EXP and Funds advantage (the most annoy ranks anyway). You are still playing efficiently every chapter except those with easy arena's to take advantage of right?

While I doubt this is what most ranked debaters have in mind, I don't really see how it isn't a legitimate plan. If units are being rewarded for helping out with any rank, then clearly whatever works for getting the best rank you can should be valid.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

I must propose banning the arena, i.e. just state in the topic post that it is assumed that the player never, ever enters the arena. It does indeed seem like the possibility of dozens of turns of arena abuse can trivialize the game, similar to the warp staff in FE11.

I wouldn't be opposed to this.

I never understood why Sue is considered horrible, I see her like Jill from Path of Radiance you need her to recruit her overrated significant other.

Sue starts off terrible and never gets good at anything but Spd and Hit. No Str, can't take a hit, eh supports...

So Ray is in high because he is good Exp fodder and can potentially become a decent unit right? This train of logic means that Geese, Zeis, and Hugh should all move up a tier since they can all turn out decent when you set up tons of kills for them right and they all are under leveled anyway, yes? Ray's position above Tate and Lot just doesn't seem right. If there really is this ~100 turn span where you can just arena abuse, I'm not seeing why being under leveled with bad stats gives Ray instant high tier ability.I'm not seeing why ranks would not take advantage of finishing every chapter ASAP so that more turns can be spent arena abusing for that EXP and Funds advantage (the most annoy ranks anyway). You are still playing efficiently every chapter except those with easy arena's to take advantage of right?

Ray is much better than those d00ds. He has constant 1~2 range, invincibility from Nosferatu, is a great support option for a good unit, and he heals. What you get out of leveling him vastly exceeds what you get out of leveling others. It's like Canas in FE 7 except more broken because Nosferatu is purchasable and a good unit wants to support him.

@ the last sentence: Pretty much, but banning the arena doesn't sound like a bad idea. CATS is smart.

[General Spoon]

Ray is much better than those d00ds. He has constant 1~2 range, invincibility from Nosferatu, is a great support option for a good unit, and he heals. What you get out of leveling him vastly exceeds what you get out of leveling others. It's like Canas in FE 7 except more broken because Nosferatu is purchasable and a good unit wants to support him.

If Nosferatu is so awesome, then why isn't Niime higher?

[dondon151]

Because Niime caps her EXP gain at 200.

[Inui]

If Nosferatu is so awesome, then why isn't Niime higher?

Niime dies in one hit sometimes and has Hit issues with it. Ray has no Hit issues and has a 0% chance of dying in one hit in almost all cases. Ray is also around much longer and has Experience rank benefits while she does not.