FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[frat_tastic]

In Whereabouts Unknown, Eliwood can't double the 7 AS Archers, the 7 AS Mage, the 7 AS Cavaliers, the Nomads, the Mercs or the Myrms. Lyn can't double the Merc, Merm, or the 11 AS Nomad, but gets everything else.

In New Resolve, Eliwood can't double the 8 AS Brigands, the 8/9 AS Pegs, any of the Wyverns, or Oleg. Lyn doubles everything.

In Kinship's Bond, Eliwood fails to double the 9 AS Nomads, the 9 AS Cavaliers, the Thief, and Eubans. Lyn doubles everything.

In Living Legend, Eliwood fails to double the 9 AS Nomads and both the bosses. Lyn doubles everything (Jasmine only if he has the Steel Axe equipped.

In Genesis, Eliwood fails to double the 10 AS Bishops or the sniper. Lyn doubles everything but the Hero and the SM.

In FFO (linus), Eliwood at 17/0 fails to double any promoted enemies. Lyn doubles everything besides the level 10 Hero.

In Crazed Beast, Eliwood fails to double Pascal or any of the Warriors. Lyn doubles everything.

So Lyn doubles plenty, and then Eliwood will lose AS from almost any Lance he wields, which gives Lyn even more she can double over him.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say Lyn>Eliwood. Obviously he is better than Lyn. The fact is that he shafts Lyn by promoting before her just like she shafts him, so if you insist on lauding the fact that she makes Eliwood promote later, then it should affect his position as well.

[Florete]

YES. THANK YOU. The best debater at SF by far (I'm not the only d00d that thinks that, dondon) sees my point and didn't totally ignore it like everyone else!

No offense to dondon at all, but shit like this is getting old and annoying very fast. At this point it feels more like "People who agree with me are the best debaters!" than anything else and it is not getting you anywhere.

And again, no offense to dondon, a debater I definitely respect myself.

[grandjackal]

Hmph...Suppose I could agree to a tier difference...However, it is only for ranged combat and move. Isadora should not linger too far away from low tier.

Either way, I think I explained well enough why Karel shouldn't bother dropping any lower.

As for the Bartre issue, I'm looking at stats and I notice that Bartre after promotion still looses to Hawkeye (Hawkeye wins 3 HP, 1 Skill, 1 Speed, 4 Luck, 2 Def, 3 Res, all Bartre's got is 1 Str and supports). I suppose if it's ranked he could go above Dart, but what the hell is Dart doing up there? Bartre can get mroe exp before promotion, and his promotion item's not so expensive as to warrent him near unusable so he has a better chance to continue gaining exp. After promotion, he's basically Hawkeye's stunt double, though instead of terrain advantage and 15 crit he gets...Bows...

His supports...Hmm...Well he could have an A with Dorcas quite easily before Living Legend, which constitutes +1 Str, 1 Def, 9 hit, 15 avoid, 15 crit. It helps, but all it does is make him sorta tie Hawkeye naturally. If my math's right, and if Canas stays glued to Bartre, he could have a C by then for an extra +1 ATK, 1 Def, 5 avoid, 2 crit and 2 crit evade, but they would have to be pretty glued.

...Basically what I'm saying is that unless EXP is sucha huge deal that it gets Dart over Hawkeye, then Bartre shouldn't be above Hawkeye.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Colonel M]

Dart is going to drop. I don't think him being a free 1200 CEXP unit really justifies you that far up, especially if we're sandbagging the hell out of Lyn.

[Inui]

She needs to be almost Level 18. You can't be serious on her gaining 4 Levels in one chapter, consider that we likely have other flying units (hello? Heath? Florina? Fiora?). Farina is not entitled to every kill on this map.

Yes, I can. Farina is entitled to all of the Monk kills. Why? Experience rank and we intend on using her. Having her gain 400 EXP in two turns > having some other unit gain 50 EXP in those two turns instead. I told you I just played Crazed Beast, kept Hector back, got Farina right away, gave her a Pure Water and two Javelins, and sent her to kill the Bishop and the Monks, and she gained 400 EXP in two turns. Go do it yourself if you don't believe me. Why would I bother giving a 20/5 Florina 50 EXP instead?

So you're telling me we can freely spend 50K, or 100K on two Assassins? Fuck that, Dart can go up now. </sarcasm>

Yes, we can, since money doesn't matter. 30k allowance per unit according to some people I trust immensely, and prepromoted units add to it and Silver Card abuse is awesome. Freely spending 75k (Silver Card for the second Fell Contract plz) to make the Experience rank suddenly a non-issue is extremely well worth it, especially since you're swimming in cash. Dart should go up. Best offense in the game after promotion and viable supports? Yes.

On the contrary, she has two mobile units that can carry her now. Sain was tagging along with Kent anyway. It can be a square of happiness.

Because eating three character turns with rescuing and having halved Skl/Spd is awesome.

This is a 0 Turn Chapter. We don't have that much time to dawdle recruiting her. Hector can move around and seize one of the gates so that we can use a good unit on the field. Farina likely isn't coming until Turn 6-8, pending on which gate you have Hector at (Pascal or the Warrior one).

Or Hector can be at none. I had Raven solo the axe part and seize right away and then Farina talked to Hector on turn 6. By turn 9, Farina gained 4 levels and I seized the last castle.

Also, you didn't explain it. GJ just showed what you can do with the Whip. I can buy 6 Killing Edges freely by not recruiting Farina. Hell, I can load them up on Karel and Jaffar and make them good. Prepromoted units can get credit for saving us cash. Farina is just dumping it down the toiled just for some mediocre unit.

Recruiting Farina doesn't prevent you from doing that. Go ahead, give them Killing Edges. You'll still S rank Funds. 30k allowance per unit that an unpromoted unit would need to use 17 Silver Lances to go over? Rofl. You're swimming in money. Your team can probably wipe their asses with 10k each and not care.

Now that I think about it... now Farina would cost us 150K. I'm starting to hate this idea more and more.

Farina definitely needs more than an Iron Weapon.

17 Silver Lances = ~20k. That is an extreme massive exaggeration of what any unit ever needs. Farina can cost the 50k and then use 50 Silver Lances and still not cost 150k. Please don't spout nonsense.

And when you use Steel, your accuracy drops a bit. Not to mention your AS values can get rather atrocious. Using Killer weapons give units +30% chance to kill something that sits in front of them. Considering the Combat Rank, why would you not ever consider this? There's more than just the unpromoted scrubs, and units can actually fail at ORKOing things such as Wyvern Knights. They have 30-33 HP | 11-12 Def. Guy with a Steel Sword at 20/1 has 23 Attack before supports. That's stupid.

Then factor other weapons such as the Reavers for the units that can't gain WTC. All those mono-Sword users want Lancereaver. Geitz with Dorcas and / or / neither Bartre want them too. Instead of Axes, Isadora doesn't really mind a Lancereaver (Axes are just too heavy IMO).

Oh, no! Now we have 100 Hit instead of 100 Hit! 0 Lck slow enemies ftl. Combat rank? Rofl. I don't know which rank is more of a joke; Combat, Funds, or Survival. All three are certainly loltastic. Experience and Tactics are the only ones that actually require attention. You only need to one-round 40% of the time to S rank Combat, and Farina killing in two rounds is still 50%, so who cares?

A 20/1 Farina one-rounds every single Merc/Fighter in BBD with Iron/Slim. She needs something better on the Wyverns, Heroes, and Paladins in NoF, but that's all, and everyone needs to use good weapons on those regardless unless you have Str/Spd like Dart/Sain. Everything else just dies.

I can't just look at Farina's cost to even be recruited and just hand wave it. There's an opportunity cost to recruiting her. Promoted units may be helping our funds rank by saving us cash, but Farina is effectively denting a hole in it. Do you not understand the problem with this?

I can, since there's no dent.

20/1 Eliwood has 16 Spd while 20/1 Lyn has 20 Spd. With a Steel Lance, Eliwood has 12 AS. With the Javelin it's 14. Lyn has 19 AS with the Killing Edge. Now I can tell you right now that Eliwood can fail to double the Mercenaries without resorting to Iron, which is fine, but it barely matters in the next chapter. She has WTA against the Pirates, so that barely matters too. So yeah, nothing different.

Why in God's name is he ever using a Steel Lance when he can "resort" to a cheaper and lighter weapon and still rape some weighed down Mercs and stuff? Eliwood should promote first, meaning he's 20/1 in Chapter 26. After that? He's better than Lyn in PFoD due to a horse and lances, and then Chapter 28 = if you don't have a horse, you're automatically pretty bad, and not having a promoted Eliwood there rush out with Lowen and Marcus to curbstomp enemies quickly in order to save Zephiel, recruit Nino, and escort her to Jaffar makes things harder, while Lyn being promoted there does nothing for you at all.

After Eliwood promotes in Chapter 26, he doubles everything there but lolVaida. Then in PFoD he gets everything but a Hero or some shit. In BBD, he's like 20/5 and has enough AS to double the weighed down Mercs with Iron and kill them. Promoting Eliwood first is awesome because it adds a great unit to your team and he actually provides utility in the chapters between his promotion and Lyn's while Lyn can't do the same...cuz she sucks.

I already agree on the whole no tier difference between Bartre and Dorcas.

Yes, you're so much better.

*Bows*.

Good man.

Indeed. When I have been wrong after pursuing something in this topic? 0 times. I was right about Marcus. I was right about Isadora being better than Lyn. I'm was right about Farina after looking at how loltastic the Funds rank is. I was right about no tier gap between Bartre and Dorcas. I am certainly right about Priscilla's issues potentially making her drop a tier. The only thing I may be wrong on is Karel/Jaffar vs Isadora, but I doubt it after what dondon and I have stated. I have a good history of ending up right in the end with this game. I'm not trying to be elitist or arrogant.

You know, to backstab you on your assassin strategy, Jaffar can pull this off pretty well.

I also took a quick look at this, and I don't know many Thieves that can seriously "solo" the pits. To give you an idea they have about 104 Hit with the Tomahawk and Killer Axe. Each time that a 20/1 Matthew faces an attack (btw he has 51 Avoid, 76 with WTA) he has a 48% displayed against him. Now you're suggesting that we have him sit in this pit and risk a little under 50% chance of getting hit? That's absurd. Even if you took something like a 20/10 Matthew there's still 21% displayed. Not to mention that each time you see combat that you have a greater chance of getting hit, and judging Berserkers and Matt's durability I doubt he can take more than two hits. Mekkah and dondon also inform me there are some Swordreaver (or Slayer, can't recall) Berserkers in there. In short: I doubt this strategy.

Jaffar gains 7 levels vs 19. He doesn't pull it off well at all.

Killer Axe ones and Swordslayer ones are extremely uncommon. I played through the whole chapter until reinforcements stopped coming and those weapons were far from plentiful. Furthermore, a Lancereaver grants double WTA on the Swordslayers and then the trade trick fixes the "oh but here comes a Tomahawk" problem. Shaving off turns earlier at the expense of like 50 EXP per turn converts those turns into around 400 EXP per turn in this chapter, so you can honestly just take your time if you were efficient enough and be defensive with pillars and support positioning (Guy for Matthew, and Legault honestly is just durable enough on his own due to raping Matthew in Lck/Def).

There are so many shitty Devil Axe ones to kill, and that's something they'll never get hit by.

Also, you need to consider something. For every single kill they get, they get ~2-3 more Evd. That's pretty substantial. After clearing out the first two, they already got +2-3 Evd. They kill another, +2-3 Evd, etc. They are gaining levels so fucking fast that their Evd shoots up dramatically as well as other stuff, but mostly Evd. You can have some big Mag unit like Lucius or Pent sitting back with Physic (you want this for healing purposes and to kill the reinforcements that come from the starting point) to heal them.

I tried this strategy myself. It has it's risks, but using pillars and having a Physic d00d there makes it pretty easy, and then once they gain a few levels they can safely go on their own.

Now that I'm done atm with arguing against questionable logic, looking at Jaffar vs. Vaida.

Well first off we missed that Vaida has 14 Spd at base, so unless she gets hampered by wielding something, my mistake. This just adds Limstella on her "to double" list. This still gets her doubled in other places such as the Heroes and Valkyries. Still, she does have a major mobility advantage, then consider that VoD is a terrain-heavy chapter (it's clear but there is some terrain besides the Peaks). Still, Jaffar practically wins in the Final Chapters and has had that short time of being there in Night of Farewells and CoD, the latter being a very difficult chapter. I'd even think he'd come close to winning in Chapter 31 because all he really needs is a Lancereaver (or Armorslayer if it's available) against the AKs, though personally I'd pick up the Lancereaver first since it gives effectively +30 Avoid. Also pretty Archer-heavy, though granted her 22 Def nearly cancels out the threat of a Bow (Steel Bow has 16 Mt, so they'd have to have quite a bit of Atk to even dent her). Silver Bow Snipers (dunno if they wield it) can probably be a major threat though. Seems close, but I think Jaffar can edge a win here, but just barely. Might have to let others know their thoughts.

As for Isadora, while I don't think your Upper / High / Top comparison "aiming big" method is the greatest way to go, I do think it's marginally possible to accept her a tier up. But, keep in mind, the second Body Ring doesn't come until very late in the game and the spellcasters also love that item (especially Canas and Nosferatu). She does rape the EXP factor a bit which questions her level gain (want to try to hype 16 combat phases for a level up and still be mediocre? lol). Lucius may have durability problems, but the problem with Isadora's goes all the way back to her class. Sain, Kent, Lowen, hell even Marcus can take a short beating. If you don't do rotating, they're effectively gaining leads in durability against her and don't lose in offense if at all (she just has the Killer Axe advantage against those but Marcus). Lucius, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily need to see combat all the time. Him being a staff wielder means that his main role is healing with a little combat on the side. She has the short time where she beats your Cavalier trio, but once they promote she might as well go "poof". She can still be used, obviously, but she just doesn't have many perks above them anymore.

I could buy it (Jaffar > Vaida), but I do think that Vaida's VoD win is pretty substantial to think about. For now I will put Isadora to bottom of the next tier and the others can decide from there. Keep in mind, folks, that she's saving only 6000 Gold, not 10000 if we consider the Body Ring on her. Also consider that she isn't healthy for a Rank that isn't easy to S Rank either (32X strategy =/= completely ignoring the disadvantage).

EDIT: Guess Bartre and Dorcas have two tier difference. Uh... well I'll wait and see if they'll meet halfway, keep a tier difference, or Bartre straight up. I think Geitz > Dorcas personally, but I don't have everything to back it up.

I agree with all of that except I think Vaida wins against Jaffar from the moment she exists and that Jaffar is totally worthless in CoD (like 100% of all sword-locked units) so it's like a negative for him to exist there. Isadora should be in the bottom of the tier above where she is now.

In Whereabouts Unknown, Eliwood can't double the 7 AS Archers, the 7 AS Mage, the 7 AS Cavaliers, the Nomads, the Mercs or the Myrms. Lyn can't double the Merc, Merm, or the 11 AS Nomad, but gets everything else.

In New Resolve, Eliwood can't double the 8 AS Brigands, the 8/9 AS Pegs, any of the Wyverns, or Oleg. Lyn doubles everything.

In Kinship's Bond, Eliwood fails to double the 9 AS Nomads, the 9 AS Cavaliers, the Thief, and Eubans. Lyn doubles everything.

In Living Legend, Eliwood fails to double the 9 AS Nomads and both the bosses. Lyn doubles everything (Jasmine only if he has the Steel Axe equipped.

In Genesis, Eliwood fails to double the 10 AS Bishops or the sniper. Lyn doubles everything but the Hero and the SM.

In FFO (linus), Eliwood at 17/0 fails to double any promoted enemies. Lyn doubles everything besides the level 10 Hero.

In Crazed Beast, Eliwood fails to double Pascal or any of the Warriors. Lyn doubles everything.

So Lyn doubles plenty, and then Eliwood will lose AS from almost any Lance he wields, which gives Lyn even more she can double over him.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say Lyn>Eliwood. Obviously he is better than Lyn. The fact is that he shafts Lyn by promoting before her just like she shafts him, so if you insist on lauding the fact that she makes Eliwood promote later, then it should affect his position as well.

Unfortunately for your comparison, starting in Crazed Beast at the absolute latest and possibly before, they both begin ramming 20/0 and then see no combat at all. Lyn doubles Pascal, a boss she totally blows against and there's 20 better options to fight him, and a single Warrior that Eliwood also rapes.

Eliwood has before-Lyn-exists utility. Then Lyn joins. She maintains an offensive lead against enemies she can double and he can't, while Eliwood wins against anything they both double and always wins durability in every combat exchange. Both do not exist in Living Legend and Genesis, so that's pretty much a moot point. Why would they ever be fielded in such chapters? 2 Mov in the desert and promoted magic users in a chapter where 1~2 range and Mov matter a lot and you have few unit slots? They're not being fielded.

I also question the levels you have Eliwood at. He his 12 AS at 13-14, but you're saying he's not doubling 8 AS enemies in New Resolve. Are we aiming to recruit Wallace for some reason?

No offense to dondon at all, but shit like this is getting old and annoying very fast. At this point it feels more like "People who agree with me are the best debaters!" than anything else and it is not getting you anywhere.

And again, no offense to dondon, a debater I definitely respect myself.

False. You should go see the FE 7 tier list topic at FEFF, where I am disagreeing with both Solid and CATS simultaneously and holding my own. dondon happens to have really good logic and make good points without being a douche. He's rly g00d and I enjoy debating him if he avoids turning into a troll.

[messy mike]

I agree with all of that except I think Vaida wins against Jaffar from the moment she exists and that Jaffar is totally worthless in CoD (like 100% of all sword-locked units) so it's like a negative for him to exist there. Isadora should be in the bottom of the tier above where she is now.

A few posts back, Life (Cap'n Crunch) posted the argument I made for Jaffar > Vaida at GFaqs. Maybe you didn't read it, but I showed that Jaffar performs better than Vaida both offensively and defensively against the majority of the enemies in VoD, one of only two chapters they both will feasibly be deployed in. He obviously wins in Light too, where she can't double anything and gets doubled by most of the boss morphs, and Jaffar has a chance to insta-kill anything.

He certainly is not "a negative" in CoD; as someone stated, a Reaver or Armorslayer lets him take out the armors better than a fairly large portion of your army, and he provides a lot for your Exp rank while being free for your funds rank, unlike the other assassins. In NoF, his deployment carries no opportunity cost, and while hers also doesn't in CoD, she shows up late enough to not see any action, while Jaffar is present from turn 1 in his first chapter.

The only thing Vaida has on Jaffar is flight, although that really doesn't matter since there are no villages left for her to visit and her Aid is too low to be effective in rescue chains. If anything, a terrain heavy map like VoD just gives Jaffar more of an edge. Her 1-2 range might mean something is she could ever manage to double anything and deal good damage at the same time.

Jaffar > Vaida

[Inui]

He certainly is not "a negative" in CoD; as someone stated, a Reaver or Armorslayer lets him take out the armors better than a fairly large portion of your army, and he provides a lot for your Exp rank while being free for your funds rank, unlike the other assassins. In NoF, his deployment carries no opportunity cost, and while hers also doesn't in CoD, she shows up late enough to not see any action, while Jaffar is present from turn 1 in his first chapter.

CoD is 99% magic users. Yes, deploying him at all = negative. I don't think 700 EXP is a lot for your Experience rank compared to other units. Vaida can potentially gain more, but she might not.

He's not a negative in NoF (he's just meh) or SoT, I guess.

I'll have to look into this more.

[messy mike]

CoD is 99% magic users. Yes, deploying him at all = negative. I don't think 700 EXP is a lot for your Experience rank compared to other units. Vaida can potentially gain more, but she might not.

He's not a negative in NoF (he's just meh) or SoT, I guess.

I'll have to look into this more.

Vaida's not gaining 7 levels in Sands of Time and VoD without any kind of exp boost or real reason to be fielded. Sorry.

Even if he's not deployed in CoD, he is deployed in NoF, and provides some amount of positive utility, no matter how small. Vaida doesn't. In SoT, his combat is roughly equivalent to Vaida's, and her extra move means nothing in a defend chapter, especially when she can't go anywhere in the southern half of the map without being WTFraped by Denning. Plus lockpick utility, if you didn't promote another thief for funds reasons or something. There's no way Vaida provides more over her total attendance than Jaffar does.

[frat_tastic]

One thing I've been thinking about. Is there really a tier's difference between Isadora and Lyn?

When Isadora joins in 22, Lyn will likely be 17/0 (leaves LHM at 9, 8 chapters of use, a level a chapter).

Isadora, 20/1

28 HP, 13 ATK, 16 AS, 8 DEF, 6 RES, 42 AVO

Lyn, 17/0, A Florina C Kent

27 HP, 14 ATK, 19 AS, 6 DEF, 5 RES, 54 AVO

Isadora of course at this point has +2 move over Lyn, as well as WTC, but Lyn also has had usage before this in a positive manner and has the Mani Katti (plus you can throw her a lancereaver to always make her WTN.)

Isadora also has to worry about losing AS. They have fairly similar performances at this point in the game.

Later on Lyn is always better statistically, but takes a promo item, whereas Isadora doesn't.

Issy may be better, but a whole tier's worth? Nah.

[Life]

You do that. And tell us what verdict you come back with, O great one...

Quick question about Lyn's durability. LHM is S Ranked, correct? That means that we can use only one of the 3 big cost items we get (Angelic Robe, Knight Crest, Energy Ring). What's stopping us from slapping an Angelic Robe onto Lyn during LHM? Think of her as starting with 7+ HP so her defense at level 9/0 is 28.6 HP, 3.6 Def, 2.4 Res and 34 Avo.

Anyone ever considered doing that? I'm not going to argue vehemently for it, I'm just asking a question. And if we consider that happening, would Lyn rise on the tier list (maybe like a spot) because of the added HP? It's basically free as the cost of using the Angelic Robe doesn't affect HHM in any way but Lyn's added durability has a positive effect (can possibly take another hit).

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[dondon151]

The Angelic Robe isn't free of cost because other people might want it. Florina, Erk, Matthew all want it a lot more than Lyn does.

[Inui]

Isadora's AS doubles everything when she joins, even with losses. She has 1 more Con over Lyn. Isadora using only swords is about the same as Lyn, but at least she has access to other weapons while Lyn does not. She can kill every enemy in her joining chapter sans Eubans quite easily due to double WTA.

I question those supports on multiple areas. First of all, is Kent ever near her to build it and does Kent want it at all? Kent has Fiora, who is undoubtedly better than Lyn, and she matches Kent's mobility. Lyn is left in the dust by Kent in almost every single chapter and she's not even fielded a bunch of times. Florina's support with Lyn is super fast, but how often does it get the chance to build and be in play? Lyn has 5 Mov and poor durability, while Florina has 7-8 Mov is off doing things to make chapters end quickly and actually using her flight. I'd say the support bonuses are in play half the time at best and that Lyn only has B Florina at that time.

From this point on, things only get worse for Lyn and better for Isadora. Isadora's mobility really matters, especially in something like Genesis and her joining chapter, and she gets to improve and build supports while Lyn starts ramming 20/0 and is benched.

Also, I noticed you conveniently rounded up Lyn's 18.6 Spd and 13.8 Lck for her AS/Evd and just listed her stats as if both support bonuses were in play 100% of the time and guaranteed. That's not happening.

[frat_tastic]

I've never considered using it myself. It's like using the body ring on Isadora, she's one person who certainky wants it, but there are also others who want it. Sometimes she does, others she doesn't. Personally I'd give it to her or Flo over anyone else, since Erk and Serra have constant 1-2 range and Matthew isn't seeing tons of combat, but whatev.

Either way I don't think Lyn belongs in Low, and she should move up to the bottom of lower-mid with Isadora a spot above her.

EDIT:

If you question Lyn's supports now, then I'd question all of Isadora's later. She also supports with units who have less move than she does (except for Marcus if she gets that one), and those are in even bigger maps than the ones Lyn and Kent/Florina are in.

Kent will certainly take Lyn. It starts several chapters earlier than Fiora and is faster, so he doesn't care. She's being fielded of course, as in some o these chapters she's forced and you're trying to build her level so you can get Linus's FFO. Also Fiora really only has flying/move on Lyn, and a RES lead. Otherwise they're pretty similar, only Fiora loses AS from lances and is weak to bows, and joins later.

Go ahead and round down on the stats, it hardly matters (-3 AVO for Lyn). If you have that big of a problem with my stat format, I can change it to make it easier for you.

Also Lyn kills pretty much everything in Isadora's join chapter, as well as most chapter prior to that. She's even better at killing Eubans than Isadora thanks to the Mani Katti.

And there's no guarantee that Lyn will be benched upon hitting 20/0.

Edited February 18, 2010 by frat_tastic

[grandjackal]

The Angelic Robe isn't free of cost because other people might want it. Florina, Erk, Matthew all want it a lot more than Lyn does.

Erk's a mage who can avoid getting attacked when he wants, and Matthew's combat is even worse hot garbage so him being at the front lines is even less likely. He doesn't get into brawls, as he would say (though I'm sure EXP rank with his lightning fast gains is a good argument that he should still see combat anyways).

Florina I suppose is a good competitor...But aha! What of the Energy Ring? If it's not one, could it be the other?

EDIT: While I have fought to keep Isa in low, I will say she makes excellent use of the Body Ring as her wide array of weapon choices demand it. However, I think that would have plenty more bearing on an unranked playthrough than tight fisted ranked...

Edited February 18, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Florete]

Quick question about Lyn's durability. LHM is S Ranked, correct? That means that we can use only one of the 3 big cost items we get (Angelic Robe, Knight Crest, Energy Ring). What's stopping us from slapping an Angelic Robe onto Lyn during LHM? Think of her as starting with 7+ HP so her defense at level 9/0 is 28.6 HP, 3.6 Def, 2.4 Res and 34 Avo.

I'm pretty sure you can get away with two of them. I usually use the stat boosters and still find a White Gem in Lyn's inventory.

The Angelic Robe isn't free of cost because other people might want it. Florina, Erk, Matthew all want it a lot more than Lyn does.

Florina? Sure. The other two? Not sure. Erk attacks at 1-2 range so his durability doesn't come into question so often. Matthew might want it for a few maps, but won't be in combat as often. I'd say Lyn gets much more use out of it than those two.

EDIT: Hey look, Jackal and I said almost the same thing.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

Yes, I can. Farina is entitled to all of the Monk kills. Why? Experience rank and we intend on using her. Having her gain 400 EXP in two turns > having some other unit gain 50 EXP in those two turns instead. I told you I just played Crazed Beast, kept Hector back, got Farina right away, gave her a Pure Water and two Javelins, and sent her to kill the Bishop and the Monks, and she gained 400 EXP in two turns. Go do it yourself if you don't believe me. Why would I bother giving a 20/5 Florina 50 EXP instead?

All I want to do is just facepalm at your entire post, but here, I'm going to respond. Unfortunately I'll be riddled with hypothetical or rhetorical questions, but fine.

Looking at Heath, he doesn't have many chapters where he's "that good". This chapter is a great way to get him rolling around. With the Pure Water he may be damaged by the Monks; however, he is safely ORKOing these things. The same Level 12 Heath has 9 AS, which almost doubles the Monks in general. With a Pure Water intact he has 10 Res, which is enough to prevent him from being damaged heavily by these things. And, oh look, he came FREE!

Wait, want insult to the injury? Let's pretend that we don't use Fiora for a moment. You seem to "not like her much", but fine. A Level 11 Fiora has 9 AS with the Javelin. ORKOing again. Like Heath she doesn't have much easier time leveling up, so here's the chance.

There's also Florina. If you hold her back a couple levels, she can also gain EXP as well without major trouble ORKOing. She can still gain 17 EXP per kill at Level 15. Whooops, not hard either.

And what stops us from sending any other Mage user over there? We probably have two flying units that can fly at this point. As long as they have 1-2 range and about 9-10 AS equipping their 1-2 range (hint: not difficult), then they can also farm the CEXP here.

So pretty much: if you have 1-2 range, you can do this. Extra credit if you fly (thanks Fiora, Florina, and Heath). Why am I wasting my time blowing 30K just for a unit that I can satisfy with your so-called-working 32X strategy and not have a problem? If anything bringing that into the argument made her look worse.

Yes, we can, since money doesn't matter. 30k allowance per unit according to some people I trust immensely, and prepromoted units add to it and Silver Card abuse is awesome. Freely spending 75k (Silver Card for the second Fell Contract plz) to make the Experience rank suddenly a non-issue is extremely well worth it, especially since you're swimming in cash. Dart should go up. Best offense in the game after promotion and viable supports? Yes.

Lol.

First off, 30K just went to getting Farina and promoting her. I really hope you enjoy denting your other units just to give her more than her Killer Lance and Javelin. Moving on.

Also for viable supports? Newsflash: Dart has no real options. Want me to show you? Sure, I can do that:

Farina - 0 + 2

Wil - 20 + 3

Geitz - 0 + 2

Rebecca - 35 + 3

Karel - 0 + 2

Let's see... 3 0+2 supports. Not happening. Wil is pretty shitty and you admit that. Then we have a combat liability for #5.

Seriously, stop wasting my time.

Because eating three character turns with rescuing and having halved Skl/Spd is awesome.

Apparently you don't know how to play the game then. After you rescue someone, there is this little strategy that you can do? Would you like me to demonstrate? Okay, here's what we do.

Step 1. Select Lyn. Move her next to Florina. Place her there.

Step 2. Move Florina next to Lyn. Press "A". In the menu is something called "Rescue". Move your cursor on it and press "A".

Step 3. Move Florina where another unit can approach Florina.

Step 4. Move Kent next to Florina. Press "A". In the menu is something called "Take". Move your cursor on it and press "A".

Step 5. Now, there should be another option called "Drop". Move your cursor over that and press "A".

Step 6. Choose where to place Lyn. Press "A" when you think you know a good place to put her. If movement remains for that unit, you may move that unit as you wish.

I think I can even educate an elementary student on how to do this. It really isn't that difficult and most units use this strategy. It's called a "wardrop". They even use it in real life, can you believe it? :o

Why in God's name is he ever using a Steel Lance when he can "resort" to a cheaper and lighter weapon and still rape some weighed down Mercs and stuff? Eliwood should promote first, meaning he's 20/1 in Chapter 26. After that? He's better than Lyn in PFoD due to a horse and lances, and then Chapter 28 = if you don't have a horse, you're automatically pretty bad, and not having a promoted Eliwood there rush out with Lowen and Marcus to curbstomp enemies quickly in order to save Zephiel, recruit Nino, and escort her to Jaffar makes things harder, while Lyn being promoted there does nothing for you at all.

After Eliwood promotes in Chapter 26, he doubles everything there but lolVaida. Then in PFoD he gets everything but a Hero or some shit. In BBD, he's like 20/5 and has enough AS to double the weighed down Mercs with Iron and kill them. Promoting Eliwood first is awesome because it adds a great unit to your team and he actually provides utility in the chapters between his promotion and Lyn's while Lyn can't do the same...cuz she sucks.

Next time when you're out of town, I recommend seeing an eye doctor to check on your eyesight. I wasn't saying that Lyn should get the Seal first.

Good man.

Indeed. When I have been wrong after pursuing something in this topic? 0 times. I was right about Marcus. I was right about Isadora being better than Lyn. I'm was right about Farina after looking at how loltastic the Funds rank is. I was right about no tier gap between Bartre and Dorcas. I am certainly right about Priscilla's issues potentially making her drop a tier. The only thing I may be wrong on is Karel/Jaffar vs Isadora, but I doubt it after what dondon and I have stated. I have a good history of ending up right in the end with this game. I'm not trying to be elitist or arrogant.

My sarcasm button must be broken. Rody, I need this fixed. Can you arrange an appointment tomorrow to do so?

Nice job handling Lowen back there Horio. You failed to prove anything. Solid might as well have "curbstomped" your argument. Your response was "why should I use Lowen when I have Oswin?" when the responses are so painfully obvious that it should pop up in every beginner debater's mind.

If you'd like that answer, I can give it to you.

Jaffar gains 7 levels vs 19. He doesn't pull it off well at all.

Killer Axe ones and Swordslayer ones are extremely uncommon. I played through the whole chapter until reinforcements stopped coming and those weapons were far from plentiful. Furthermore, a Lancereaver grants double WTA on the Swordslayers and then the trade trick fixes the "oh but here comes a Tomahawk" problem. Shaving off turns earlier at the expense of like 50 EXP per turn converts those turns into around 400 EXP per turn in this chapter, so you can honestly just take your time if you were efficient enough and be defensive with pillars and support positioning (Guy for Matthew, and Legault honestly is just durable enough on his own due to raping Matthew in Lck/Def).

There are so many shitty Devil Axe ones to kill, and that's something they'll never get hit by.

Also, you need to consider something. For every single kill they get, they get ~2-3 more Evd. That's pretty substantial. After clearing out the first two, they already got +2-3 Evd. They kill another, +2-3 Evd, etc. They are gaining levels so fucking fast that their Evd shoots up dramatically as well as other stuff, but mostly Evd. You can have some big Mag unit like Lucius or Pent sitting back with Physic (you want this for healing purposes and to kill the reinforcements that come from the starting point) to heal them.

I tried this strategy myself. It has it's risks, but using pillars and having a Physic d00d there makes it pretty easy, and then once they gain a few levels they can safely go on their own.

And that, good sir, is why I place some doubts behind it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SorNau76RMs&feature=related

There are no pillars within the room with Kishuna. IIRC, you mentioned to warp an assassin in there and "let things roll". You also only mentioned putting one unit in there, not two, so I don't know how you're going to approach the second strategy of trading a Lancereaver. Maybe if you want your other Assassin to die of a stupid cause, but meh my opinion.

(Guy for Matthew, and Legault honestly is just durable enough on his own due to raping Matthew in Lck/Def).

Your lack of proof baffles me once again, two years experience.

20/1 Matthew - 34.5 HP | 9.5 Def | 11 Luck

20/1 Legault - 36.8 HP | 12 Def | 14.6

It's a 2 HP | 2 Def difference. Not that much more durable to say the least. And certainly not "raping". Please learn to check your numbers next time. I concede to Luck... but it's +4 Avoid. It might as well be "moot".

Also, you have just admitted this chapter can give way to risks. I'm almost at Endgame, I don't want to waste much more time within this place. You have very few places as to where you can Physic.

Say, I have a brilliant idea. Watching the video this man made... he used Lyndis to do this as well. Now if we don't use her much after promotion, she can help us with this chapter by raping the EXP rank even more! I think Lyn is going back up a tier. Fuck the difference between her and Isadora.

False. You should go see the FE 7 tier list topic at FEFF, where I am disagreeing with both Solid and CATS simultaneously and holding my own. dondon happens to have really good logic and make good points without being a douche. He's rly g00d and I enjoy debating him if he avoids turning into a troll.

With your logic, I'm pretty sure they're rolling their eyes at some of it. Rofl Level 15 Isadora at VoD. 20/5 Farina in C28. Please, do go on.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

If you question Lyn's supports now, then I'd question all of Isadora's later. She also supports with units who have less move than she does (except for Marcus if she gets that one), and those are in even bigger maps than the ones Lyn and Kent/Florina are in.

Go ahead, question them. They still make more sense than Lyn's. 5 Mov vs 7-8 Mov/Flying/way more durability/need to finish chapters quickly. It looks really bad for Lyn, even when it comes to Florina. Isadora's Mov gap with her partners is either 0 or 2, and her partners have the durability to go frontline, like Geitz and Harken, while Lyn doesn't.

Kent will certainly take Lyn. It starts several chapters earlier than Fiora and is the same speed, so he doesn't care. She's being fielded of course, as in some of these chapters she's forced and you're trying to build her level so you can get Linus's FFO. Also Fiora really only has flying/move on Lyn, and a RES lead. Otherwise they're pretty similar, only Fiora loses AS from lances and is weak to bows, and joins later.

Fiora can fly and has 7 Mov to keep up with Kent and doesn't get locked to 20/0 until Chapter 28 like Lyn does. Kent is usually nowhere near Lyn at all. Chapter 16? He wants to go join the main crew and help you finish that shit quickly since the requirement is like 7 turns, lol. Lyn can stay back and hit reinforcement Brigands or something. Chapter 17? Kent is part of the blitzkrieg crew since you have to do that there, and Lyn can't keep up at all. Lyn is probably not fielded at all in Chapters 17x or 18 due to very limited deployment slots in one and the enemies in the next all being really bad for her. How is this support ever building and how are the bonuses ever in play?

Go ahead and round down on the stats, it hardly matters (-3 AVO for Lyn). In all your comparisons with Isadora you've done the same thing of including the AVO and crit bonuses that she gets from her supports, so you don't have a lot of room to call me out on it.

Nah, I listed her raw statistics and then what she can potentially get from support bonuses separately. I didn't straight up include them into her guaranteed 100% of the time always in play stats.

Also Lyn kills pretty much everything in Isadora's join chapter, as well as most chapter prior to that. She's even better at killing Eubans than Isadora thanks to the Mani Katti.

She kills the Knights without having durability issues, especially with Ballistas, Nomads, Monks, and Mages near them? She kills Swordreaver Fighters with a Lancereaver? Isadora is clearly outperforming her.

lol @ vs Eubans. Lyn never even gets near Eubans and Eubans has WTA and kills her in two hits. Isadora can get to him, but she shouldn't. It's a totally moot point.

And there's no guarantee that Lyn will be benched upon hitting 20/0.

So you like 0 EXP instead at least some? Even a 20/15 Marcus is better for the Experience rank than a 20/0 Lyn. You have no reason to ever field her when she's 20/0. At all.

[dondon151]

If you question Lyn's supports now, then I'd question all of Isadora's later. She also supports with units who have less move than she does (except for Marcus if she gets that one), and those are in even bigger maps than the ones Lyn and Kent/Florina are in.

We don't really assume supports for Isadora. She does fine without them. Her Harken support gets to C really fast and mounted units build support points when rescuing support partners. If Isadora rescues and carries around Harken in chapter 28, they can get a C support there easily.

She's being fielded of course, as in some o these chapters she's forced and you're trying to build her level so you can get Linus's FFO. Also Fiora really only has flying/move on Lyn, and a RES lead. Otherwise they're pretty similar, only Fiora loses AS from lances and is weak to bows, and joins later.

"Only has flying/move" is an understatement. Flying and move are some incredibly important traits. Even if you wanted to get Lyn to 15/0 for 24G, you don't have to field her every chapter, and if you're fielding her just for the purposes of gaining EXP, chances are she's not following Kent around. For example, on chapter 19 Lyn gains some decent EXP from taking on the pirate reinforcements from near the starting point, since they have severe hit issues, but Kent's going to be heading south with everyone else.

Erk's a mage who can avoid getting attacked when he wants, and Matthew's combat is even worse hot garbage so him being at the front lines is even less likely. He doesn't get into brawls, as he would say (though I'm sure EXP rank with his lightning fast gains is a good argument that he should still see combat anyways).

Avoiding counters is fine and all for player phase, but giving Erk +7 HP to buffer his durability on enemy phase increases his flexibility greatly. He sees a lot more combat and gains EXP a lot faster, which lets him achieve doubling AS sooner, which then lets him ORKO enemies from 1 and 2 range. It's like a positive feedback loop. Matthew sees significant mileage out of the Angelic Robe as well because he's around right from the start.

[Life]

Fiora can fly and has 7 Mov to keep up with Kent and doesn't get locked to 20/0 until Chapter 28 like Lyn does. Kent is usually nowhere near Lyn at all. Chapter 16? He wants to go join the main crew and help you finish that shit quickly since the requirement is like 7 turns, lol. Lyn can stay back and hit reinforcement Brigands or something. Chapter 17? Kent is part of the blitzkrieg crew since you have to do that there, and Lyn can't keep up at all. Lyn is probably not fielded at all in Chapters 17x or 18 due to very limited deployment slots in one and the enemies in the next all being really bad for her. How is this support ever building and how are the bonuses ever in play?

The one thing that I'm going to bother replying to.

Kent and Lyn can easily stand beside each other in 16 quite a bit. Why? Because there are something like 50 forests blocking Kent's movement.

Look at the math and the map. Lyn has 5 move and forests have a 2 cost for her. She gets sliced down to 2 move. Kent has 7 move and forests have a 3 costs for the Knight group (Knights A: Cavalier, Troubadour. Knights B: Knight Lord, Paladin, Valkyrie.). That also gives him 2 move. Oh look, Lyn and Kent can stand beside each other! Same thing happens in the bottom part of 19.

As for 18, Kent can't utilize his movement because he literally has nowhere to go. Look at the map and tell me how he's going to fly over enemies on the planks. If Lyn gets fielded there (she needs to be level 15 by FFO so I don't see many reasons why she shouldn't be), there's a good chance that she and Kent get another 3 turns towards their support.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[frat_tastic]

Again Inui, if Lyn is having problems getting her supports, Isadora is having loads of problems on her own of getting them. The same move problem with Harken, and then Marcus might not be fielded in the late game because you're trying to get that exp. rank.

And if we're taking into account that good rescuers/mounted units can aid in building supports, both Florina and Kent can just rescue Lyn and get the supports going. Florina and Lyn is stupid fast (1 turn to a C, only 20 more to a B and then 20 more to an A), and Kent is fairly speedy as well, so it's not hard for her to get it. None of these maps are that big, or if they are big they have restricting walls and such that keep the party close to each other.

And the reason that Lyn is potentially not being benched at 20/0 is because she could be promoted. Less likely than Eliwood perhaps, but it's still a possibilty.

And I never even thought of using Lyn in Value of Life, thats a great idea if we're actually going to that chapter. She does just as well, if not better, than your thieves (and is less expensive), so she could be significantly boosting our experience rank. Looks like up to lower-mid to me.

[dondon151]

As for 18, Kent can't utilize his movement because he literally has nowhere to go. Look at the map and tell me how he's going to fly over enemies on the planks. If Lyn gets fielded there (she needs to be level 15 by FFO so I don't see many reasons why she shouldn't be), there's a good chance that she and Kent get another 3 turns towards their support.

There are 2 simple reasons why Lyn doesn't get fielded in chapter 18.

1: Defense map with 8 unit slots.

2: 2RKO'd by everything on the map. 11/0 Lyn has 23 HP, 4 def, 3 res. Mercs @ Steel Sword have 16 atk and shamans @ Flux have 14 atk (@ Nosferatu have 17 atk). Archers @ Steel bow have 16 atk and PKs @ Steel Lance have 18 +1 atk. There are so many combinations on this map that 2RKO her that it's not even funny (well, maybe it is). And 3 of the 4 listed enemy types are particularly troublesome because they attack from range or can bypass your chokepoints. Lyn is a terrible choice for this chapter.

[Inui]

Looking at Heath, he doesn't have many chapters where he's "that good". This chapter is a great way to get him rolling around. With the Pure Water he may be damaged by the Monks; however, he is safely ORKOing these things. The same Level 12 Heath has 9 AS, which almost doubles the Monks in general. With a Pure Water intact he has 10 Res, which is enough to prevent him from being damaged heavily by these things. And, oh look, he came FREE!

Wait, want insult to the injury? Let's pretend that we don't use Fiora for a moment. You seem to "not like her much", but fine. A Level 11 Fiora has 9 AS with the Javelin. ORKOing again. Like Heath she doesn't have much easier time leveling up, so here's the chance.

There's also Florina. If you hold her back a couple levels, she can also gain EXP as well without major trouble ORKOing. She can still gain 17 EXP per kill at Level 15. Whooops, not hard either.

And what stops us from sending any other Mage user over there? We probably have two flying units that can fly at this point. As long as they have 1-2 range and about 9-10 AS equipping their 1-2 range (hint: not difficult), then they can also farm the CEXP here.

So pretty much: if you have 1-2 range, you can do this. Extra credit if you fly (thanks Fiora, Florina, and Heath). Why am I wasting my time blowing 40K just for a unit that I can satisfy with your so-called-working 32X strategy and not have a problem? If anything bringing that into the argument made her look worse.

She's worse than units way above her on the tier list? Wow. Really? Thank you for proving things we already know, that Farina is worse than those units. I never once said she's as good as them. I think she's better than Karel, Jaffar, Nino, etc. and DEFINITELY NOT THE 4TH WORST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME, and that's it.

First off, 30K just went to getting Farina and promoting her. I really hope you enjoy denting your other units just to give her more than her Killer Lance and Javelin. Moving on.

Denting what? What don't you understand about Funds being a joke? You are swimming in cash. An unpromoted unit must use 17 Silver Lances before going over their 30k allowance. That's not happening. Even unpromoted units are not using up their whole allowance, and fielding promoted units increases the cash you can use by a lot. Farina's cost is a very minor point against her. That is obvious now. Removing the HUGE MASSIVE UNFAIR PENALTY you give her for the cost, she's definitely better than Karel and Jaffar, as shown.

Also for viable supports? Newsflash: Dart has no real options. Want me to show you? Sure, I can do that:

Farina - 0 + 2

Wil - 20 + 3

Geitz - 0 + 2

Rebecca - 35 + 3

Karel - 0 + 2

Let's see... 3 0+2 supports. Not happening. Wil is pretty shitty and you admit that. Then we have a combat liability for #5.

Seriously, stop wasting my time.

I should say the same to you, since I end up right at the very end of every debate I have you with you guys, lol.

Apparently you don't know how to play the game then. After you rescue someone, there is this little strategy that you can do? Would you like me to demonstrate? Okay, here's what we do.

Step 1. Select Lyn. Move her next to Florina. Place her there.

Step 2. Move Florina next to Lyn. Press "A". In the menu is something called "Rescue". Move your cursor on it and press "A".

Step 3. Move Florina where another unit can approach Florina.

Step 4. Move Kent next to Florina. Press "A". In the menu is something called "Take". Move your cursor on it and press "A".

Step 5. Now, there should be another option called "Drop". Move your cursor over that and press "A".

Step 6. Choose where to place Lyn. Press "A" when you think you know a good place to put her. If movement remains for that unit, you may move that unit as you wish.

I think I can even educate an elementary student on how to do this. It really isn't that difficult and most units use this strategy. It's called a "wardrop". They even use it in real life, can you believe it? :o

Guess what? That's still three character turns at minimum, which is what I said. Florina's turn is eaten. Kent's turn is eaten. When Lyn is dropped, she still can't do anything, so that's another wasted turn. I was 100% right. As usual. Three character turns must be devoured to do this.

Dang, more elitism and insults and trolling instead of debating. What a surprise out of Serenes Forest debaters! Stop being a condescending jackass as if you're in my league with this game. Save it for scrubs. Or better yet, nobody.

Next time when you're out of town, I recommend seeing an eye doctor to check on your eyesight. I wasn't saying that Lyn should get the Seal first.

My eyesight is perfect. You said stupid stuff. Eliwood with a Steel Lance? Why? He has to "resort" to Iron as if it's worse to be cheaper/faster/more accurate? He has more than 16 AS when he starts to face off against Mercs and he doubles everything in Chapter 26. Eliwood's offense crushes Lyn's after promotion and it's always better to promote him first.

My sarcasm button must be broken. Rody, I need this fixed. Can you arrange an appointment tomorrow to do so?

Even if you think you were being sarcastic, you were right.

And that, good sir, is why I place some doubts behind it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SorNau76RMs&feature=related

There are no pillars within the room with Kishuna. IIRC, you mentioned to warp an assassin in there and "let things roll". You also only mentioned putting one unit in there, not two, so I don't know how you're going to approach the second strategy of trading a Lancereaver. Maybe if you want your other Assassin to die of a stupid cause, but meh my opinion.

Are you the one that needs their eyes checked? I said the Warp idea was retarded and I undid it. Almost any unit would be raped badly by 6 Berserkers with varying weapons showing up. They aren't warped in there at all. They get some early kills to boost their Evd quickly and easily while they are near a Physic user and continue onward after they get more Evd and they are fine. They can also carry Elixirs with them. There are pillars in other places as they progress onward.

Your lack of proof baffles me once again, two years experience.

I always have proof. You, and others here, just love to totally ignore things frequently.

20/1 Matthew - 34.5 HP | 9.5 Def

20/1 Legault - 36.8 HP | 12 Def

It's a 2 HP | 2 Def difference. Not that much more durable to say the least. And certainly not "raping". Please learn to check your numbers next time.

Legault also has 5 more Evd due to Lck. 2 HP + 2 Def + 5 Evd = pretty substantial, especially when that 5 Evd is rly like 10 due to double RNs. Either way, this is their durability on the first turn or two, and they get 2-3 Evd every single KILL, let alone turn, after that.

Also, you have just admitted this chapter can give way to risks. I'm almost at Endgame, I don't want to waste much more time within this place. You have very few places as to where you can Physic.

Thankfully you only need one spot to use Physic from; the start. Lucius can get tons of distance out of it and heal them when they enter Kishuna's room or even just get near it, so the time they can't be healed is very small, and it's after they gained like 10+ Evd and some Def from killing the first few enemies.

Say, I have a brilliant idea. Watching the video this man made... he used Lyndis to do this as well. Now if we don't use her much after promotion, she can help us with this chapter by raping the EXP rank even more! I think Lyn is going back up a tier. Fuck the difference between her and Isadora.

Correct, you can do this with Lyn, but the Assassins possess a class bonus for their EXP, so they trump Lyn massively. Better yet, let's save Guy or Raven for this instead, since they are way better at it than Lyn in every aspect. Too bad they are still much worse at it than the Assassins due to not getting 100 EXP per kill.

With your logic, I'm pretty sure they're rolling their eyes at some of it. Rofl Level 15 Isadora at VoD. 20/5 Farina in C28. Please, do go on.

Nope. We're talking about Lowen/Sain/Kent where I'm saying Kent and Sain are much better than Lowen. 20/15 Isadora in VoD and 20/5 Farina in BBD make total sense to me, especially the Farina one. Isadora's probably 1-2 lower, but I see no reason why those levels make no sense.

And the reason that Lyn is potentially not being benched at 20/0 is because she could be promoted. Less likely than Eliwood perhaps, but it's still a possibilty.

She's benched for many chapters, at least until 28x, after hitting 20/0. That's what I meant.

Also, I second every single thing dondon said since he makes 100% perfect sense and is backing himself up. I don't want to sound like a cocksucker, but he really is the cream of the crop here. Good shit, dude.

[frat_tastic]

I understood what YOU meant about Lyn being benched, you're just wrong about it. Lyn could promote before that and be fielded.

[Inui]

I understood what YOU meant about Lyn being benched, you're just wrong about it. Lyn could promote before that and be fielded.

She's still got a period of time where she's useless and Isadora isn't. Lyn's promotional situation is ALWAYS bad. Shafting Eliwood + making BBD/etc. harder or she promotes in 28x and is way behind everyone. I'm not really wrong. Promoting Eliwood first is preferable, and permanently benching Lyn isn't a bad idea. She can promote first, but that almost never happens, and Isadora still had a big period of time where she could gain EXP and she couldn't.

And I love how so much of my posts just get ignored. At least concede points and make changes to the tier list accordingly. When you guys got on me about Farina, I conceded, stating I didn't have the evidence to support my case. I came back with that evidence and have been supporting my case. It's okay to concede points. I certainly do it often enough with other really good debaters.

[dondon151]

Denting what? What don't you understand about Funds being a joke? You are swimming in cash. An unpromoted unit must use 17 Silver Lances before going over their 30k allowance. That's not happening. Even unpromoted units are not using up their whole allowance, and fielding promoted units increases the cash you can use by a lot. Farina's cost is a very minor point against her. That is obvious now. Removing the HUGE MASSIVE UNFAIR PENALTY you give her for the cost, she's definitely better than Karel and Jaffar, as shown.

I showed that the cost was an issue with some empirical evidence, and even disregarding all that, Farina still sucks when she joins and has little leeway for improvement. If she joined on turn 1 in chapter 25, I would be fine with assuming that she gained EXP to get out of a rut, but she doesn't; she joins 2-3 turns on the opposite end of the map before the chapter ends and hardly gets the opportunity to see combat.

Guess what? That's still three character turns at minimum, which is what I said. Florina's turn is eaten. Kent's turn is eaten. When Lyn is dropped, she still can't do anything, so that's another wasted turn. I was 100% right. As usual. Three character turns must be devoured to do this.

If the priority is simply transport or enemy phase positioning, then the 3 character turns are well worth it. It would have taken another player phase for Lyn to get to where she would have been dropped, and by then it would have been too late for her to do whatever the player wanted her to do.

Edited February 18, 2010 by dondon151