FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

1. I never said that Lyn's promoting first. But hell, if you can dodge a 50k hit to Funds, Lyn can stop being shit on for her promotion.

Lyn still gets the second promotion or ends up shafting a way better and more preferable unit. Either way, she loses to plenty of units and sucks. Super late promotion = instant failure. Promoting first = being mediocre but shafting Eliwood.

2. You never even responded to my post proving why Farina has to have a low spot on the tier list. For her to ranked properly, she has to be beside people who she performs 3x better than. I'm inclined to drop her personally.

The cost doesn't matter. That was addressed. This nonsense of her needing to be 3x better than what she's next to because she costs 3x more is absurd since the cost doesn't matter. Please read my post addressing Farina's cost and how much of a joke the Funds rank is. Farina's cost is nearly a non-issue, meaning she can be debated as a real unit, in which case she rapes Karel and Jaffar pretty badly.

Inclined to drop her? Where? She's already the 4th worst unit or some shit on this list. She'd need to be in ultra failure tier to drop any more, and she's clearly better than those scrubs even with every negative about her exaggerated.

Edit: With that cost logic, prepromoted units are like automatically way better than unpromoted units, lol. There's no way Serra/Priscilla/etc. are 1.5 times better than Marcus. Marcus for best unit!

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Inui]

Here is CATS raping me about Ninian/Nils:

Ninian also should be Top at the least.

There are very strongly diminishing returns on enemy phase performance. Adding a 10th combat unit does not further your enemy phase capabilities at all. You will never need all 10 fighters to counter something; considering units like Raven who one-round on the counter and have the durability to take multiple attacks, you'd have to be going up against like 20 enemies in one turn for that to happen. The only time that can happen at all is VoD, where those unpromoted enemies are horrible and can be slaughtered en masse by mostly any trained combat unit. "I have an enemy phase" is only a strong argument for characters who have a significantly better enemy phase than most other units on your team, such as Raven.

What Ninian brings to the table on player phase is much more significant than a standard attacker's enemy phase, since each unit can only act once on player phase. Also, Exp rank once again. Ninian contributes in a similar way to what healers do towards Exp rank. She shouldn't be in the same tier as someone like Eliwood.

Ninis's Grace adds more to your team's overall defenses than any individual unit's supports, with the possible exception of Hector and his kickass Eliwood support.

Ninian has 5 move, but she contributes more to your overall team's mobility than almost anyone else. She can push an individual unit farther ahead than anyone else can save only Warp staff users. If you have Ninian, Kent can move forward 14 squares on turn 1. No one else can give you that option (again, with the exception of Warp). If you have Dart and Kent, you can kill two enemies up to 6 and 8 squares away from them. If you have Ninian and Kent, you can kill two enemies up to 7 and 15 squares away.

This means that, at worst, even if Ninian is several squares behind the team, her presence is still more valuable than that of another attacker. If you have Ninian and Kent and Ninian is 3 squares behind, then you can kill two enemies up to 4 and 12 squares away. This is not clearly worse than having Kent and Dart with neither one being behind, and I'd argue that it's better.

CATS proving Bartre = Dorcas pretty simply:

Bartre should move up.

For starters, there is a two tier gap between him and Dorcas.

12 Bartre: 14 Str, 7 Spd----37.5 Hp, 7 Def, 21 Avo

15 Dorcas: 14.2 Str, 8.4 Spd----39.6 Hp, 6 Def, 24.6 Avo

Dorcas wins of course, but it is close.

20/5 Bartre: 21 Str, 11.8 Spd----50.7 Hp, 13.6 Def, 34.2 Avo

20/6 Dorcas: 21.2 Str, 10.4 Spd----50.6 Hp, 11.5 Def, 32.6 Avo

Now Bartre is the winner.

Over the course of the game, their overall combat contributions should be similar. I suppose I'd give Dorcas a slight advantage here, but it's pretty close, at worst. Meanwhile Bartre has been on a lower level the whole time and thus contributing more towards Exp Rank. I'd rather see them in the same tier, or at least not a two tier gap.

CATS showing a small amount of data about Isadora being underrated:

I also think Isadora is too low.

18 Dorcas: 16 Str, 9 Spd----42 Hp, 6.75 Def, 2.25 Res, 27 Avo

15 Rebecca: 9.6 Str, 14.4 Spd----25.4 Hp, 5.1 Def, 5.2 Res, 39.8 Avo

Base Isadora: 13 Str, 16 Spd----28 Hp, 8 Def, 6 Res, 42 Avo, triple weapons, 8 move

20/2 Dorcas: 18.8 Str, 9.6 Spd----47.4 Hp, 10.5 Def, 5.7 Res, 29.4 Avo

20/1 Rebecca: 14.6 Str, 18.4 Spd----32.4 Hp, 7.85 Def, 8.7 Res, 50.3 Avo

3 Isadora: 13.6 Str, 17 Spd----29.5 Hp, 8.4 Def, 6.5, 44.9 Avo, triple weapons, 8 move

Isadora's offense is probably more notable than her durability. A combined Str/Spd of 29 is very high for the chapter she joins in. Kent, for example, will not reach that figure until he hits 20/0. Sain has to be 16/0 to match that. Eliwood won't get it until he promotes. etc. It is mitigated somewhat by her poor Con, but still quite impressive for a unit that, according to the tier list, is mediocre at best and below average overall.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Rewjeo]

I don't think he meant she needed to be 3x better than units around her for cost (I think) but that her availability is so poor that she needs to be 3x better.

[Crysta]

k I think I understand the thing with Farina.

Farina costs lots of money compared to other units who may be above her.

You get lots of money in this game.

Each unit has approximatedly 30k to spend.

Few units actually need to spend that entire 30k.

Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that you can indeed hire Farina without raping funds.

y/n?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Crysta

[HJ.]

Lolfunds

And what is this strange argument I'm hearing? I've never heard anything about Erk having to be 2x better than Pent all the time because Pent costs much less. You're just making this shabby logic up on the spot because it happens to suit your anti-Farina arguments.

Edited February 17, 2010 by HJ.

[Florete]

Edit: Stuff I factually proved:

-Priscilla has bottom tier durability and promotional issues that hinder her use, making her certainly worse than Serra, since Serra promotes earlier and is more durable. She is pretty overrated, and HJ and Solid agree with me on that and she may not be top tier. I know it's shocking to you people, but things change based on new discoveries.

You tell us something we already know and think that's proving something?

[Colonel M]

Lolfunds

And what is this strange argument I'm hearing? I've never heard anything about Erk having to be 2x better than Pent all the time because Pent costs much less. You're just making this shabby logic up on the spot because it happens to suit your anti-Farina arguments.

Unfortunately this "shabby logic" is "true logic". No unit except for her actually costs a dime to recruit. There are much better things I could've done with that 30Ks worth of gold. Much.

Funny that your lord and savior also uses this "2x better" logic often.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Colonel M

[Balcerzak]

Hugh has the same type of issues as Farina as far as cost goes, yet he seems to be much higher in the FE6 list. Is that just because there are many more characters that suck horrendously?

Also, I'm confused why there is so much hate for Farina costing money to exist, yet you let him advertise promoting two Assassins for 32x without even raising so much as a brief objection. That would cost way more than Farina does. Also, I don't buy inflating her cost to 40k as being a particularly reasonable argument either. As far as ranking goes, she only deprives you of 20k, the same as using a Heaven or Earth Seal would do.

I think I'll just stop here, because as a self-admitted Farina fanboy, I often find it hard where to draw the line. She's clearly not a good choice for a team, but I don't feel she's as terrible as she's being portrayed.

[HJ.]

What are you going to do with that money instead? You have it in excess to begin with. Are you going to gain 6 stars in funds? Oh, wait... :(

And I don't obsess over anyone the way Inui does, so lol. If you're referring to WJC's arguments about Hardin and those two other Cavaliers, that's not even the same thing.

Btw, you just don't understand me and Inui's logic so we're automatically right no matter what you say. Hm, I could get used to this attitude, it makes for easy victories.

[grandjackal]

20/1 Farina

HP: 35.0

Str: 16.0

Skl: 16.2

Spd: 17.6

Lck: 13.6

Def: 14.0

Res: 16.4

Con: 6

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords

C Florina/C Fiora: 2 Atk, 5 Crit, 2 Hit, 5 Evd, 1 Def/Res, 7 Crit Evd

20/8 Karel

HP: 31

Str: 16

Skl: 23

Spd: 20

Lck: 15

Def: 13

Res: 12

Con: 9

Mov: 6

Swords, +15 Crit

Where do I begin?

1. Do justify those supports when they all have better options (Florina has Lyn and Fiora, Fiora has Florina and Kent...Hey, a square!)

2. With that in mind, thanks for showing us she's not that much better than Karel despite costing basically 60k to Karel's...Whatever it costs to equip him.

3. Her con slows her down, as for example her equipping Silver weighs her down to 12 AS. Karel on the other hand is only weighed down by Steel, and it's just by 1.

4. 8 levels in 2 chapters? Do suck my balls, capitan. She's lucky we're even waiting around to recruit her, much less seeing a lot of action in her joining chapter. It's probably more like this.

16/0 Farina-27 HP, 12 Str, 14.6 Skill, 15.35 Speed, 11.8 Luck, 11 Def, 13.2 Res, 5 Con

5. I count 3 whips. Florina and Fiora are obviously getting it if used. However, what about Heath? He's got 3 chapters before Farina, and is also in those 2 chapters Farina has. What's to say he won't be the same level as Farina?

16/0 Heath-39.2 HP, 17.5 Str, 14.5 Skill, 13.05 Speed, 8.8 Luck, 13.7 Def, 3.6 Res, 9 Con

Let's also remember that her con makes it so iron lances weigh her down by 3. She is tecnically slower.

Her only win seems to be 3 luck, 1 avoid and 10 Res. Heath roflstomps everywhere else, and didn't cost 40k to recruit. He could be even a couple levels lower, he'd still be bitchslapping her statistically.

6. Let's add up Karel's crit. 26 crit at base, 31 with a reaver, 56 with a killer, 61 with a Wo Dao. Witht he proper weapon, I could have more than a coin flip's chance of having Karel ignore a counter. She needs a killer just to contend in critical with his reaver. Countering range would be a good counter, if it didn't weigh her down by 5 (6 before promotion). 2 move and flight is nice, but I have 3 others to do my flying utility for me, and it does bring a perk fliers have to mind that Karel doesn't-bow weakness. Even with your 20/1 Farina, a steel bow archer does 1/3 her HP, that being back in her joining chapter.

7. He has a way to make up for his offensive "loss" in the form of blades. The heaviest weighs him down to 15 at base, and it gives him 30 might (something your Farina there needs a full blown silver lance to match). 15 AS is still good enough (if 14 can take you all the way to endgame...), the offense comes with a base of 26 crit to boot.

8. What if Florina and Fiora aren't in play? I know Karel isn't crying over having no friends.

9. Did you know 1 Elysian Whip can buy me 3 killer edges?

[dondon151]

Hugh has the same type of issues as Farina as far as cost goes, yet he seems to be much higher in the FE6 list. Is that just because there are many more characters that suck horrendously?

That's partially true. The FE6 list also does not acknowledge ranks. There is no funds rank to satisfy and Hugh is comparatively less expensive than Farina to recruit, plus he gets to have staff/Aircalibur utility from promotion whereas Farina has flying in a game where flying is comparatively less useful (though IMO it does save her from bottom tier).

Also, I'm confused why there is so much hate for Farina costing money to exist, yet you let him advertise promoting two Assassins for 32x without even raising so much as a brief objection. That would cost way more than Farina does. Also, I don't buy inflating her cost to 40k as being a particularly reasonable argument either. As far as ranking goes, she only deprives you of 20k, the same as using a Heaven or Earth Seal would do.

Farina costs 20k G, non Silver Carded, which is 40k G equivalent. I don't advocate promoting 2 Assassins for 32x either, because that's just simply not reasonable.

I pull up my final chapter save, which currently has 5 stars in funds with 9 promoted units (Priscilla, Raven, Serra, Kent, Sain, Heath, Fiora, Lucius, Erk) plus promoted Eliwood (Lyn is unpromoted). Farina is also unrecruited. If I spend 40k G worth of items (i.e. I use a Heaven Seal plus an Earth Seal), my funds rank drops to 4 stars. If Farina costs 50k G to use (40k to recruit and 10k to promote), she prevents the promotion of 1 unit on this team. If Lyn is promoted, that's 3 units on this team that Farina competes with. The only stat boosting item that I've used on this playthrough are the Boots (on Hector), and the only gem that I've sold is the one obtained in chapter 11. The S-rank weapons obtained in Endgame have a total worth of 150k G, which is coincidentally exactly the amount required for that chapter, so a 20% leeway on that is only 30k G. Farina evidently does put a strain on your funds - she prevents the promotion of other units, she prevents you from selling gems early on for extra money, and she prevents you from being liberal with stat boosters (so no Body Ring for Isadora, Speedwings for Marcus, for example). This also invalidates the "use 100k G on your assassins" strategy for 32x, plus is competes with Dart's use after promotion, since his item costs 50k G. It also competes with, for example, Oswin's and Lowen's promotions, since there are only 2 Knight Crests, so either of them needs an Earth Seal to promote.

Plus, as GJ just brought up, you have 3 Elysian Whips for 3 fliers that are all better than Farina. If she has to use an Earth Seal, that's 10k G more on her tab. And he brings up other issues, too: Farina has terrible AS from any weapon that's useful (she can't double 8 AS monks in chapter 25 from 2-range, which Inui conveniently ignored, among many other problems for that chapter). She has terrible durability plus terrible offense that severely hinders her ability to gain EXP.

Edited February 17, 2010 by dondon151

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

OK, funds analysis; a work in progress.

Simple Version

The requirement given by SF's ranking page says ~847,000g is needed for 5*. It also says this ~847,000g is the requirement since it is 80% of the combined total for all chapters, which I've added up to around 1,053,000g total (or 1,058,750g, if you just do 847000/.8), with slight variance based on 24/27's differing paths. I'm going to assume that the listed requirement for each chapter equals the total assets and gold gained in the chapter, though this is not entirely accurate and will be addressed later. It is fairly close for now.

This leaves 1,053,000 - 847,000 = 206,000g to work with and still stay above the 5* requirement. Assuming a team of 10, each unit then has a personal budget of 20,600g to work with. Of course, you aren't going to be spreading your spendings on your team equally, as there are things like using prepromotes which add flexibility to your spending.

However, this doesn't account the aforementioned difference between listed requirements and actual assets/gold gained per chapter or things like what the silver card does, arena winnings, and whatever else I can't think of right now. So...

Not Simple Version

Coming Soon.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why don't you get it? Establishing a tier gap between Lyn and Isadora (I just did) is all I need to do. That is the same as establishing her being equal to the units in the tier above low tier. Unless you think Isadora somehow deserves her own tier in between that?

at best your comparisons could maybe see Isadora jump to bottom of lower mid and Lyn/Karel/Jaffar to go nowhere.

So, Horio, in your two years tennis experience, do you often win debates by not properly reading what the other person posts?

I aim big. When Marcus was bottom of high tier, I shot right for the top of high tier, proved Marcus was better, and thus proved Marcus was also better than everything else in between.

A: You haven't actually shown Isadora to be better than any of the units above Lyn, if you've even shown Isadora > Lyn. So unlike with showing Marcus > unit at top of high, you aren't doing that right now. All you do is show her to be inferior to some unit way above her, claim she comes close, and handwave everything else that matters.

B: Technically, proving unit A > unit B when there is a multi-unit gap between A and B only proves that either A needs to rise or B needs to drop or a combination of both. It does not actually prove that A needs to rise to the slot above where B currently is.

I'm not going to waste my time comparing Isadora to everything. I'll pick a unit above her and attack that one unit and skip a bunch. It's simple.

Good. I'm waiting...

Isadora, Bartre, and Rebecca need to be out of that tier. They're all about as good as Hawkeye and Vaida. In fact, Bartre is quite possibly better than or equal to Hawkeye, and that's where I'll attack for Bartre's placement. As for Isadora, her being in the bottom of the tier above where she is now is entirely acceptable to me. As for Rebecca, her being an Archer doesn't negate the huge leads she has on failure like Carol/Jaffart.

Do you realize what I could do to this paragraph by just sticking in random names from any tier list? This paragraph of yours means next to nothing. There is ZERO substance in this paragraph.

Well, I take that back. If you really would accept Isadora as the bottom of lower mid then comparing her to Lyn is sufficient if you can prove that there is a tier gap between them, or that there isn't a tier gap between Isadora and the unit immediately above her. Now, clearly, you haven't proved this to the people here. You've proved it to yourself, and are convinced that what you have written clearly shows this. However, you already came in believing it to be true, so obviously it doesn't take much to convince you of Isadora's right to being in lower mid. There are so many of your statements that are easily mirrored back at you that it's just sad.

I'm right. You're wrong. I'm going to prove it like I proved many other things already that got totally ignored.

You seem to respect HJ well enough, so:

Btw, you just don't understand me and Colonel M's logic so we're automatically right no matter what you say.

/mirror.

If you'd like me to find more, I suppose I could.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Speaking of Isadora and Karel...

Level 10 Isadora-34.75 HP, 15.7 Str, 15.15 Skill, 20.5 Speed, 14.05 Luck, 9.8 Def, 8.25 Res, 6 Con

Base Karel-31 HP, 16 Str, 23 Skill, 20 Speed, 15 Luck, 13 Def, 12 Res, 9 Con

Lessee, 3-4 HP and 1 Luck in her favor, possibly 1 Str, 4-3 Def and 4 Res in Karel's favor.

Seems like Isadora's favor, or is it?

First off, there are 5 chapters between her and Karel. Her being level 10 is absolutely laughable. Then remember her con. Iron axe is 22 might for her, but weighs her down to 16 speed. For similar speed, Karel could have a Steel Blade or Silver Blade, and an iron blade would make up for the loss of WTA to WTD in damage. But why bother? A Lancereaver is the same might, and gives Karel the WTA as well, on top of giving him 31 Crit to further avoid counters ont he crit kill (along with incidentally saving weapon uses. A crit kill uses 1 weapon use, a normal ORKO would require 2). Against swordies, she would have the entireity of 5 avoid lead and 3 might (6 damage when she does double) to Karel if he were using a basic iron sword (and again, he has 26 crit).

Countering range? Well, she can, but a javelin or hand axe reduces her to 15-14 AS, along with further killing her avoid. This isn't even considering Karel's soon to come across the Light Brand (he DOES join in Jerme's possible chapter), which not only doesn't weigh him down, he's he's packing 25 might targeting resistance compared to Isadora's 22-21 physical. Besides, Karel has his own ways of ignoring counters, what with a killing edge/wo dao giving him 56/61 crit, more than a coil flip's chance to avoid a counter all together.

Then consider he's just flat out more durable. Losing minorly to HP does not make up for better avoid (in most situations even considering her WTC), better Def and better Res.

That is, of course, if measured to an overinflated Isadora. 5 chapters of prepromote status, 1 of those chapters being a desert, want to compare real levels while being generous?

Level 4 Isadora-30.25 HP, 13.9 Str, 13.05 Skill, 17.5 Speed, 11.35 Luck, 8.6 Def, 6.75 Res, 6 Con

Is 5 chapters of availability and 2 move really outdoing Karel? I can bring up Jaffar if you guys want.

[HJ.]

haha light brand

[grandjackal]

haha light brand

Haha, realisticly destroying her by 1 HP, 2-3 Str, 10 Skill, 3 Speed, 4 Luck, 4 Def, 5 Res, 3 Con with Swordmaster crit which amounts to a lead of 18 crit, along with 10 avoid (making whatever WTA she has irrelevent).

He doesn't even need the Light Brand to make her look like a bad joke.

[HJ.]

Are you trying to save face by citing things that are 100% irrelevant to anything I said? Nice.

[grandjackal]

Are you trying to save face by citing things that are 100% irrelevant to anything I said? Nice.

You didn't say anything. Were you claiming the Light Brand is a crappy weapon?

Haha, Light Brand doesn't say a lot, or does the words Light Brand just sort of make you reflexively giggle to yourself?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[HJ.]

You're not entirely off, actually. See, the Light Brand really, really sucks, and Isadora can use it too.

[grandjackal]

You're not entirely off, actually. See, the Light Brand really, really sucks, and Isadora can use it too.

How does it really really suck, and what right does she have to take it off him when she's basically statistically inferior regardless?

[HJ.]

Going by that logic, what right does KArel have to take it off Guy when he's 242498797x better than Karel? lol

And how does it not suck. Attacking from a range with it halves the attacker's Str and it targets Res. The only enemies Karel would use it against are magicians and lance users wielding a Javelin. In fact, it really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really sucks.

[frat_tastic]

To counter some of Inui's claims.

Eliwood still shafts Lyn if he promotes sooner. Stop claiming "but she sux lulz", the fact is he stops her from promoting and gaining a very nice boost to durability.

20/0 Eliwood, A Hector/B Lowen

33 HP, 16 ATK, 14 AS, 14 DEF, 6 RES, 68 AVO

20/0 Lyn, A Florina/B Kent

29 HP, 16 ATK, 20 AS, 8 DEF, 8 RES, 60 AVO

Lyn's got better offense, Eliwood's got better durability.

Promote them, and Eliwood's offense only increases by +1 ATK and Lances. Lyn however gets 4 HP, 3 DEF and 5 RES, bringing her DEF up to 11 (compared to promo eliwood's 15). She benefits more from promoting than he does, so he's shafting her and your team even MORE than she is shafting him.

The fact that she is even better offensively than Eliwood, is force deployed in several late-game chapters, and has required usage to get Linus FFO mean you are wrong about Lyn and you fail.

Until Eliwood's position reflects that promoting him first shafts Lyn, I see no reason why it should reflect in her position.

The same goes for Serra (or whoever gets the first ring) for shafting all the other magic users, Guy (or whoever gets the first hero crest) for shafting anyone who needs a hero crest, Florina (or whoever gets the first whip) for shafting all the others, etc. Hopefully you get the point.

Also, CATS's argument about Bartre ignores supports for Bartre, ignores how awful he is in his first few chapters, and ignores the fact that both Bartre and Dorcas are unlikely to see any use beyond 20/0 in the first place since they are pretty bad compared to anyone else on your team.

Also, inflated levels for Isadora, lol. Karel has better stats anyway lol.

Also Isadora doesn't need the light brand, she can stick to her equally shitty javelins and hand axes (and lose 5/6 AS at the same time).

[HJ.]

That's just so wrong. Eliwood gaining lances = gaining 1-2 range and neutral WT against the majority of enemies, and he gains 4 HP, 2 Str, 1 Spd, 1 Def, 3 Res, 2 Mov and 2 Con. That is so much better than Lyn's promotion it isn't even funny.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

And how does it not suck. Attacking from a range with it halves the attacker's Str and it targets Res. The only enemies Karel would use it against are magicians and lance users wielding a Javelin. In fact, it really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really sucks.

Counter-attacking >>> Not counter-attacking. If he has the light brand in his inventory, ready to be attacked by a ranged unit and someone nearby that can't get to the enemy but can trade with Karel to have him equip the light brand... you're either a retard or touchy about losing 1250G if you don't equip it.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Speedwagon

[HJ.]

You've got to be pulling my leg. Are you this dense or just messing around...?