FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[grandjackal]

Well, Farina also takes away that 40K in funds regardless of whether or nor you deploy/use her after her recruitment as well, just as Lyn/Louis give you the White Gem regardless.

So if you're not gonna user her, why pay top dollar cash to have her join?

[Inui]

You're underrating Karel severely.

Nope, he's bottom tier.

No durability? Karel has 31 hp, 13 def, 12 res and 55 avo. Pent, for example, has 33 hp, 11 def, 16 res and 48 avo. More if you field Louise, I guess. 20/1 Kent's durability is like Karel's but with an Angelic Robe and WTC thrown on. Of course, these units are better and more durable for obvious reasons, but Karel's durability isn't going to hinder him significantly. And I've seen you call Kent "invincible" before.

Correct. No durability.

Thank you for your worthless comparison, good sir. I was unaware that Pent gains 0 levels for 1.5 chapters when he's got amazing offense and comes with a Physic staff. Perhaps a comparison where Pent is actually used should be made? If Louise is being fielded (very likely in PFoD given the huge amount of units you can take), then Pent has +3 Def/Res and +7 Evd. Give him two levels, and he's getting +1 HP, +3 Evd, and potentially +1 Def/Res.

That's just raw stats. Pent doesn't take counters most of the time. Karel is locked to swords; he's eating counters all day long. Pent's durability, even in your comparison, is much better.

Unfortunately, your comparison to Kent is also meaningless. He's not 20/1 halfway through Chapter 27. Even in that comparison, having an Angelic Robe is an entire additional hit in most cases, and Kent's WTC gives him +15 Evd and +1 Def, and he has 1~2 range, so Kent is winning. How sad.

For a practical example, an 28x Steel Bow Sniper has 25 atk/98 hit. 12 dmg aka 38% of Karel's health, at 37% real. 5% of death if you expose him to that three times. A Steel Lance Falcoknight has 77% real instead but does about the same damage/#RKO. Sages, Silver Lance Gens/Paladins and Wyvern Lords will 2HKO Karel though, and Wyvern Riders do about the same as Falcoknights...Bishops and Heroes have trouble 3HKOing. Mages, Pirates and Mercs might as well not bother.

What you have just shown is durability worse than 17/0 Farina's in Chapter 26.

Goodd job?

He's locked to 1-range, but he also has huge crit to avoid counters. Like 56% with a Killing Edge. And yes, 25 atk is enough to 3HKO things in order to avoid a counter often enough. He barely falls short on the tougher promoted enemies (Heroes, WLs, Paladins), but even if Nino of all people attacks them beforehand, he can kill. And if he just has to go for an ORKO, he has ~80% to do that with a KE at base.

Farina doesn't need a Killing Edge. She has access to lances that have more Atk than swords and she's going to be raping Karel in Str in no time (lol same Str 7 levels lower with a 20% growth advantage). She has stuff like the Horseslayer and Heavy Spear and Silver Lances for huge Atk on things.

Valkyries need like 40 atk to get one-shotted. You'll need someone with huge Str + high level axes/lances to do so. Doubling them? A capped Spd Raven isn't even going to double the really fast ones (like 22 Spd). The 18 spd, sure, but how many units will make it to 22? To give you an idea, Kent has to be 20/8. But there's so many of them, and Hand Axes/Javelins simply won't do against them, so someone like Karel is going to come in handy. It takes like 3-4 Valks to kill him already at base, and if he takes a Pure Water/Barrier that amount is about doubled. That 25 atk is plenty for the KE potshot, and if he procs Spd twice (50% growth...25% after 2 lv ups, and it goes up from there) he can even double and ORKO some.

Cog of Destiny has two 23 Spd Valks, IIRC. One has Thunder, and the other has only staves. The one with staves might as well not even matter. The 23 Spd one? Karel's not doubling it. The rest have 15-18 AS, which is pretty fast, but Farina's doubling them in most cases if she's not using the Javelin, but I'd have a Javelin on her so she gets to counter with a Javelin and laugh at their attacks with her awesome Res.

This isn't FE 6. Farina will still have good Hit with a Javelin. A supportless 20/8 Farina has 65 Hit against the 23 Spd Valk. Karel's offense at range? Nonexistent, and he's one of the few units with nonexistent offense against the enemies in this chapter. Why he's even being fielded is beyond me. I guess he's being fielded to help me in a debate against him? Anyways, she has 75 Hit against the 18 Spd ones and more than that against others. This is if she has no supports. Fiora gives her a bit of Hit.

No, he can't counter them on enemy phase, but as I said, you need huge atk to kill these things on enemy phase anyway, and if you don't kill them before the begin of enemy phase they usually get healed. But even if you don't, the difference between throwing a Javelin at these on enemy phase (or a Mage countering their ~20 res) is very minimal. Not that living Valks are going to attack 1~2 ranged people if they have the choice of picking on something like Oswin or Sain or Dorcas with a powerful 1-range weapon in their hands.

Farina doubles and one-rounds the not-Valk enemies with her Javelin while they will just swarm Karel if he's there and can kill him. Sure, Karel's player phase offense is nice, but it's very easily replicated (Hawkeye with Halberd, Dart/Sain/Osw1n with Silvers, Guy with anything, Lyn with anything) by significantly more durable units that have enemy phase offense. Farina's offensive output dwarfs Karel's in this chapter and she's much more durable.

He can have a shot at the axe Generals with Armorslayer, or else help killing the various unpromoted/defenseless enemies on the map.

WTDA, just what I want on him.

Also, I'm currently debating Guy vs Priscilla with Red Fox, and Guy's Atk with full supports still isn't enough or is very barely enough to get Generals with the Armourslayer, so Karel is definitely not getting them at all.

Karel isn't a stellar unit or anything, but Bottom tier? Nowai. He isn't significantly worse enough than Jaffar to warrant that (Jaffar has better stats overall, but not 15% extra crit).

Jaffar should probably drop. He is only slightly less fail than Karel.

Support who, exactly? Rebecca gives double fire which is great in theory except for when you realize that there are huge barriers to either of them being used in the long run. Wil has a worse affinity and is overall worse than Rebecca. Geitz and Farina are both 40 turns per level of support and join rather late, so a C support is not exactly worth fielding Dart for.

Huge barriers to using Rebecca? Invincible unit with h4x offense that makes Lowen better has issues being used?

Anyways, Dart isn't so hot in my opinion anyways, so my point about him was just fluff.

This analogy makes no sense. My laptop can be turned into $400, but that doesn't show how much of a joke my financial situation is (or actually, it does, if joke carries a negative connotation). If you actually want to show how easy or difficult funds is, try coming up with numbers and comparing them to the per-chapter requirements.

It means you are absolutely swimming in cash.

You can see the Funds requirements here. I haven't gone in-depth, but it looks like a total joke given what the Silver Card does. Farina costing 30,000 Gold instead of 10,000 Gold really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Why exactly should the player eschew the use of 4 units just so another inferior one can be used without incurring a net loss to funds? We can compare 12/0 Farina to some 20/1 units if you'd like:

12/0 Farina @ Killer Lance: 24 HP, 20 atk, 10 AS, 10 def

20/1 Erk @ Elfire (B Priscilla): 33.35 HP, 24.6 atk, 12.5 AS, 9.8 def

20/1 Dorcas @ Killer Axe: 46.6 HP, 29.2 atk, 9.4 AS, 10.25 def

20/1 Fiora @ Killer Lance (C Florina): 35.1 HP, 25.55 atk, 16.5 AS, 10.6 def

12/0 Heath @ Killer Lance: 36 HP, 25.5 atk, 11.25 AS, 12.5 def

Farina loses to every one of those promoted units (well, she doesn't lose AS to Dorcas, but they're laughably close). Even unpromoted, underleveled Heath is better, and he was free!

Yes, Farina loses to them. Please note that they are all above Farina by a tier even on my Farina-loving lower mid tier to bottom tier proposal. Heath is only one spot higher, but Heath is another issue that should be addressed eventually, since he's underrated.

Furthermore, those defensive stats are just plain bad. Farina is 3RKO'd by 20 atk Iron Lance WKs in chapter 26, and needs to be at least 17/0 to escape the 3RKO (although there are 21 atk Iron Lance WKs as well, so boo). Steel Lance WKs have 25 atk and 2RKO, and Farina won't escape that until 18/0 or so. Does anyone want to spend 40k on this?

Thankfully, those enemies don't exist when she's at base level.

Here's the problem: Farina enters the map on turn 5 and might not be recruited until turn 6. You could have had Heath, Florina, or Fiora clear the entire east side by now. In fact, that is probably what happens, otherwise you'd be losing out on 20k in funds from the Elysian Whip village getting destroyed (or you could lose that 20k flat out by, you know, using Farina). Also, chapter 25 is a 0 requirement chapter. Depending on how much EXP the cavaliers are giving you, you might just want to clear that map as quickly as possible after killing Pascal. I was able to complete this map without Farina even showing up.

Hawkeye moving across the water gets to the village in time, without eating up all the Monks. You can visit that village without having some other flier eat up the Monk kills.

It's a 0 turn chapter, yes, but Experience is probably the gayest rank in this game. I've been looking at it, and such a thing seems clear to me. You apparently need to have 12 units go from 1/0 to 20/15 by the end of the game in order to get a perfect score in it. Turns can be made up for much more easily than EXP. Having Farina eat up all of those kills in 2-3 turns is awesome for Experience.

So you know what that means: no 17/0 Farina by 26, no Farina not getting 3RKO'd by the weakest WKs in the map, and no Farina resembling anything like a good unit.

nah lol

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You're underrating Karel severely.

You're arguing with Inui.

So if you're not gonna user her, why pay top dollar cash to have her join?

To set a higher goal for yourself with the funds rank but that's irrelevant.

Farina's fine where she is, even if the funds rank isn't a problem despite recruiting Farina, that's still not changing the fact that the money you'd waste on her is better spent elsewhere.

[Inui]

You're arguing with Inui.

I believe my stance on Karel was entirely justified. It has been explained.

To set a higher goal for yourself with the funds rank but that's irrelevant.

Farina's fine where she is, even if the funds rank isn't a problem despite recruiting Farina, that's still not changing the fact that the money you'd waste on her is better spent elsewhere.

You can still spend that cash. Why? Spending it doubles it in terms of your Funds rank due to the Silver Card. Caring about Funds is like caring about the Survival rank or something. Unless someone costs so much they stop you from using good weapons, it hardly matters. Farina's not draining your bank that much.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You can still spend that cash. Why? Spending it doubles it in terms of your Funds rank due to the Silver Card. Caring about Funds is like caring about the Survival rank or something. Unless someone costs so much they stop you from using good weapons, it hardly matters. Farina's not draining your bank that much.

You just described Farina. The word "stop" may be a bit strong but she does make the funds rank less lenient. I repeat:

even if the funds rank isn't a problem despite recruiting Farina, that's still not changing the fact that the money you'd waste on her is better spent elsewhere.

The money you spend on recruiting her could be used to buy better equips when you don't have the silver card (which can help some of the other ranks) and be able to make up for that later as well as giving you more freedom with your funds.

As opposed to wasting it on Farina for what? To prove that you're the biggest Farina fanboy there is? To get bragging rights for S-ranking HHM with Farina recruited? None of that is relevant here.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Life]

Yes, Farina loses to them. Please note that they are all above Farina by a tier even on my Farina-loving lower mid tier to bottom tier proposal. Heath is only one spot higher, but Heath is another issue that should be addressed eventually, since he's underrated.

And your post was SO good until you began to mention Farina. I'm not being sarcastic, I think the stuff you said about Karel is actually right (I know, it surprised me too).

Heath's not underrated because Heath's not promoting. He can't be fielded in Living Legend because he'll die, Genesis is a maybe but he's not doing much to the Generals and everything else is magic. FFO has Wyvern Riders that he 3RKOs while they return the favour, not to mention the numerous Pirates and Crazed Beast has Heath's weaknesses on all 3 sides of the map (axes, magic and ballistas). If you think that walking into Unfulfilled Heart at around level 13 is underrated, something's wrong here.

Thankfully, those enemies don't exist when she's at base level.

Yeah but it sucks after you finish Crazed Beast, right? I mean, Farina's not getting 5 levels in a single chapter, maybe 1.5 if she's lucky as Flo/Fiora have already cleared away the Monks. 'cause those enemy stats were from the next chapter, IIRC. If Farina's not at base level, she's definitely close to it.

Hawkeye moving across the water gets to the village in time, without eating up all the Monks. You can visit that village without having some other flier eat up the Monk kills.[/Quote]

Hawkeye? Are you nuts? I'd put an image of the map here but I got warned the last time I posted an image here.

That's a lake that Hawkeye has to cross. 3 movement cost. Hawkeye has 6 move or 2 move on the water. I estimate that it takes him 5 turns to make it to the village because it'll take him 3 to cross (look at the map and count the spaces from beach to beach). I highly doubt that 1) the village will still be there and 2) a horde of monks have already appeared with the intent to kill Hawkeye not to mention the Bishop with Purge.

It's a 0 turn chapter, yes, but Experience is probably the gayest rank in this game. I've been looking at it, and such a thing seems clear to me. You apparently need to have 12 units go from 1/0 to 20/15 by the end of the game in order to get a perfect score in it. Turns can be made up for much more easily than EXP. Having Farina eat up all of those kills in 2-3 turns is awesome for Experience.

If I need 12 units to go from 1/0 to 20/15 in order 5* Tactics, why am I paying for one unit to promote when I could pay for another unit plus an extra 4?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[dondon151]

Huge barriers to using Rebecca? Invincible unit with h4x offense that makes Lowen better has issues being used?

What "h4x" offense? You mean offense that doesn't exist for over 50% of the combat phases in the game? Whatever you say, sir.

It means you are absolutely swimming in cash.

You can see the Funds requirements here. I haven't gone in-depth, but it looks like a total joke given what the Silver Card does. Farina costing 30,000 Gold instead of 10,000 Gold really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

I will believe you when you make a detailed numerical analysis. Your claims have a tendency to be astronomically incorrect.

Yes, Farina loses to them. Please note that they are all above Farina by a tier even on my Farina-loving lower mid tier to bottom tier proposal. Heath is only one spot higher, but Heath is another issue that should be addressed eventually, since he's underrated.

Do you not understand the notion of opportunity cost? Farina's 12/0 stats cost 40k G to use. That 40K G could have been used to promote 4 units. Using Farina prevents the usage of 4 units, all of which are likely better than her. It's like dropping out of high school and working 70 hours a week at McDonald's - you get your $7.50/hr or whatever minimum wage is currently and give up higher education, a social life, higher paying jobs, and more useful skills. If you think that's a fair exchange, then good luck with life, sir. Although personally, I believe that attributing 70 hours per week of minimum wage to Farina is much too generous - it's probably more along the lines of smoking weed for 70 hours per week.

Thankfully, those enemies don't exist when she's at base level.

Uh, yes they do. You might as well be walking on a studded path waving around a cane if you're going to ignore my arguments. I didn't even say that Farina had to be 12/0 to be 3RKO'd by Iron Lance WKs and 2RKO'd by Steel Lance WKs. She's like that until 18/0. 6 levels in chapter 25 are going to do the trick, sure, if you let Hawkeye/Dart/Florina/Fiora/Heath sandbag the shit out of that chapter and sit around on a visited village doing nothing while waiting for Farina to show up and haul ass. And then when she does show up, she "solos" the monks with her fantastic 8 AS from 1-2 range that does not even double the shittiest enemies in the game. Way to go, Farina.

Hawkeye moving across the water gets to the village in time, without eating up all the Monks. You can visit that village without having some other flier eat up the Monk kills.

Wow, and then Hawkeye sits on his ass for 10 turns. Great use of a unit slot. You could have used someone that would have actually gained EXP, like, I don't know, Heath. Way to contradict yourself.

It's a 0 turn chapter, yes, but Experience is probably the gayest rank in this game. I've been looking at it, and such a thing seems clear to me. You apparently need to have 12 units go from 1/0 to 20/15 by the end of the game in order to get a perfect score in it. Turns can be made up for much more easily than EXP. Having Farina eat up all of those kills in 2-3 turns is awesome for Experience.

You know what's a better way to gain EXP? Using the arena for over 100 EXP per turn instead of letting your units slaughter level 11 cavaliers, pirates, and monks. A 16/0 unit gains 13 EXP per kill. By the time you seize the non-Pascal thrones, it's not worth waiting around for the cavalier reinforcements because it's more efficient to arena abuse. Reinforcements appear for 5 straight turns after they've been triggered, and you can trigger the monk reinforcements starting on turn 1. That means that you should be completing this chapter on turn 6 or 7. Where does Farina come into this?

You don't even need Farina for EXP rank. You have:

Eliwood, Lowen, Dorcas, Bartre, Serra, Oswin, Matthew, Guy, Erk, Priscilla, Lyn, Kent, Sain, Florina, Raven, Lucius, Canas, Dart, Fiora, Legault, Ninian, Heath, Rath

to satisfy all of your EXP needs. I'm pretty sure you don't have to spend 40k G to spread around 800 EXP worth of pre-promotion levels to 23 units. Assuming that 7 of them would be used in the long run, that leaves 16 units among which to divvy 800 EXP. If you rotated each of them in for only 50 EXP more per map, you'd achieve the same results as using Farina. Except it was all free.

Edited February 16, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Too much to debate at once. I will have to hold off on Farina stuff until Funds is looked at more closely. If she's deemed affordable without hurting the team much, I can very easily make a case for her to move up, maybe by a lot, since she's very clearly outperforming the likes of Karel and Jaffar by about a tier's worth.

Karel and Jaffar need to drop a lot. Isadora should move up. Rebecca > Rath for sure, probably by a tier.

[Rodykitty]

Has Karel ever been proven to have zero durability? I would say no due to a vague, baseless comparison to Pent and Kent in a vacuum.

[Colonel M]

Yeah uh, Farina costs more than 40K folks. She costs whatever weapon she wants (probably Killer Lance) + Elysian Whip (whoops, there goes 10K down the toilet). Definitely not, if ever, rising.

Rebecca only has Player Phase in a game that is Enemy Phase-centric. She isn't even invincible or "h4x". Maybe if she was in FEDS she would be, but obviously she's not. So yeah, arbitrary at best.

I doubt on how far I would even drop Karel and Jaffar. MAYBE they can, but you need to ACTUALLY compare them to the lower crap such as Louise and co. Don't try it with Farina, I plan to put her in Bottom with Wallace and Renault maybe.

[dondon151]

For a practical example, an 28x Steel Bow Sniper has 25 atk/98 hit. 12 dmg aka 38% of Karel's health, at 37% real. 5% of death if you expose him to that three times. A Steel Lance Falcoknight has 77% real instead but does about the same damage/#RKO. Sages, Silver Lance Gens/Paladins and Wyvern Lords will 2HKO Karel though, and Wyvern Riders do about the same as Falcoknights...Bishops and Heroes have trouble 3HKOing. Mages, Pirates and Mercs might as well not bother.

You know, Mekkah, you could have done a lot better with this. Handing Karel a Lancereaver reduces that FK's 77% true hit to 9%. Same for all of the other lance wielding enemies in your comparison. That pretty much erases half of Karel's durability issues right there.

[Inui]

Has Karel ever been proven to have zero durability? I would say no due to a vague, baseless comparison to Pent and Kent in a vacuum.

Perhaps it's not 0. Worst on your team if you choose to field him? Yeah, probably, and that's definitely a big negative. Having Karel do stuff on the enemy phase <<< having someone else do it, especially when you consider he can't counter a lot of stuff.

Yeah uh, Farina costs more than 40K folks. She costs whatever weapon she wants (probably Killer Lance) + Elysian Whip (whoops, there goes 10K down the toilet). Definitely not, if ever, rising.

Don't say that. Saying something can never change is just silly. What if someone (like me) looks at Funds and cash and all that and shows it truly is a joke rank and her costing that cash means little? Then she rises a lot for sure.

Rebecca only has Player Phase in a game that is Enemy Phase-centric. She isn't even invincible or "h4x". Maybe if she was in FEDS she would be, but obviously she's not. So yeah, arbitrary at best.

Certainly better than RATH. Rebecca has damaging utility early on, supports Lowen to give him much better offense, and she can and will kill anything she attacks on her turn. It's easy to replicate enemy phase offense. Anyone can clear out the garbage on enemy phase. Rebecca can attack the tougher and more dangerous shit like Wyvern Lords, Heroes, etc. and get rid of them for you quite easily. Rath can never do that and he just sucks.

Her durability is nearly infinite due to having the best Evd in the game.

I doubt on how far I would even drop Karel and Jaffar. MAYBE they can, but you need to ACTUALLY compare them to the lower crap such as Louise and co. Don't try it with Farina, I plan to put her in Bottom with Wallace and Renault maybe.

So I need to compare super shit to super shit because you don't just see how bad those guys are? Meh. Wasting my time for no reason...

holy fucking shit @ the insane Farina hate because she costs money

There's no way she's as bad as the absolute bottom tiers at all. When used, she is very thoroughly thrashing the likes of Karel and Jaffar in every aspect possible. Even if she costs a lot to do that, Karel and Jaffar are still vastly outclassed by her when she's fielded and you don't sandbag her. That means something.

If anything, Karel and Jaffar should be moved down there due to nearly 0 positive contributions even if you field them and try to make them good. At least Farina eventually produces good combat and helps the Experience rank a lot.

[Rodykitty]

Perhaps it's not 0. Worst on your team if you choose to field him? Yeah, probably, and that's definitely a big negative. Having Karel do stuff on the enemy phase <<< having someone else do it, especially when you consider he can't counter a lot of stuff.

Being able to survive enemy attacks with semi-reasonable durability makes you reasonably usable. If you actually look at the tier list, he's hovering around units like Jaffar and Isadora. I find it silly to think that he shouldn't be around other units that have similar issues of "lol not being Kent/Pent".

[dondon151]

Her durability is nearly infinite due to having the best Evd in the game.

Rebecca's durability means nothing. If, on enemy phase, Rebecca is attacked by 3 enemies and counters 0 of them, it doesn't matter that she didn't get hit. It matters that 0 of the enemies were countered, whereas if I stuck Bartre out there with a Hand Axe he would have countered all 3. Having Rebecca take attacks is a net loss (unless those attacks were from snipers). It hurts your combat and it ends up hurting your tactics.

holy fucking shit @ the insane Farina hate because she costs money

There's no way she's as bad as the absolute bottom tiers at all. When used, she is very thoroughly thrashing the likes of Karel and Jaffar in every aspect possible. Even if she costs a lot to do that, Karel and Jaffar are still vastly outclassed by her when she's fielded and you don't sandbag her. That means something.

I don't bash Farina because she costs money. I bash Farina because she costs money, has shitty offense, and has shitty defense.

Edited February 16, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Being able to survive enemy attacks with semi-reasonable durability makes you reasonably usable. If you actually look at the tier list, he's hovering around units like Jaffar and Isadora. I find it silly to think that he shouldn't be around other units that have similar issues of "lol not being Kent/Pent".

Hovering around Jaffar is fine. Their Fail stats are about the same.

Isadorable? I don't think so, especially when a debate between her and FUCKING LUCIUS LOL was close when Lucius is clearly much better.

Also, please look at the date of that debate before you flame me about something like bad support stuff or whatever.

Rebecca's durability means nothing. If, on enemy phase, Rebecca is attacked by 3 enemies and counters 0 of them, it doesn't matter that she didn't get hit. It matters that 0 of the enemies were countered, whereas if I stuck Bartre out there with a Hand Axe he would have countered all 3. Having Rebecca take attacks is a net loss (unless those attacks were from snipers). It hurts your combat and it ends up hurting your tactics.

Rebecca shouldn't take hits much. That's right. But, her durability lets her be able to do stuff. If a Wyvern Lord is near your group and she's the only one who can kill it but she must expose herself to do so? You're obviously going to kill the threat and let her take an enemy or two on enemy phase, and her durability makes her impossible to kill.

I agree that Rebecca isn't good. I view every Sniper as horrible in every game besides maybe FE 6 Klein and FE 10 Shinon. However, she is still significantly better than shit like Rath, yet she's several spots beneath him in the same tier.

I don't bash Farina because she costs money. I bash Farina because she costs money, has shitty offense, and has shitty defense.

The stats I posted kinda show otherwise, but okay. I justified them pretty well with the Experience rank, which is probably a gayer rank than Tactics.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Inui

[Rodykitty]

Hovering around Jaffar is fine. Their Fail stats are about the same.

Isadorable? I don't think so, especially when a debate between her and FUCKING LUCIUS LOL was close when Lucius is clearly much better.

EDIT: Actually, I didn't read your post properly, but you still say Lucius is clearly much better, so I don't know if that is sarcasm or not. Edited February 16, 2010 by FE3 Player

[dondon151]

Rebecca shouldn't take hits much. That's right. But, her durability lets her be able to do stuff. If a Wyvern Lord is near your group and she's the only one who can kill it but she must expose herself to do so? You're obviously going to kill the threat and let her take an enemy or two on enemy phase, and her durability makes her impossible to kill.

At that point, good durability is irrelevant. I can have Wil take 2 attacks as long as he survives, and it'll be fine.

The stats I posted kinda show otherwise, but okay. I justified them pretty well with the Experience rank, which is probably a gayer rank than Tactics.

1. Farina will not be getting levels in chapter 25 if she joins on turn 5/6 and optimal completion is turn 7/8.

2. Farina needs to level up from base and cannot even double monks from range.

3. Even if Farina gets 0-4 levels in chapter 25, her durability is still functionally the same on chapter 26. Poor durability does not cater to killing enemies.

4. Losing the potential 800 EXP obtained from leveling Farina up to 20/0 is easily made up by giving 50 EXP to each unpromoted member in the rotation.

5. Tactics can be exchanged for EXP. The converse is not true.

[Inui]

So you agree then, cool.

I agree they are similar, but I also think Jaffar needs to drop as well.

At that point, good durability is irrelevant. I can have Wil take 2 attacks as long as he survives, and it'll be fine.

Not needing to be healed is the difference here. The healer can use their turn to heal someone else or attack instead.

1. Farina will not be getting levels in chapter 25 if she joins on turn 5/6 and optimal completion is turn 7/8.

2. Farina needs to level up from base and cannot even double monks from range.

3. Even if Farina gets 0-4 levels in chapter 25, her durability is still functionally the same on chapter 26. Poor durability does not cater to killing enemies.

4. Losing the potential 800 EXP obtained from leveling Farina up to 20/0 is easily made up by giving 50 EXP to each unpromoted member in the rotation.

5. Tactics can be exchanged for EXP. The converse is not true.

Two turns is probably enough to clear out lots of those Monks for her. She doesn't fail to double all of them. Don't they have crappy Spd and lose more from Shine? Either way, they have horrible stats and can't kill her at all. They do 0-1 Dmg, apparently.

Twenty-three have Shine: 10-13 Atk, 100-104 Hit, 10-11 Crit, 8-12 Avo, 4-6 AS

One has a dropped Divine: 13 Atk, 99 Hit, 13 Crit, 2 Avo, 1 AS

24-27 Hp, 1-3 Def, 10-12 Res

That's a loooot of enemies and she's probably able to gain more than 100 EXP per turn at first, which is what you suggested could be done in the arena instead of using the turns on feeding her kills. Using up some turns on her gaining a ton of EXP seems good to me.

When I get the game back from my friend, I'll look into this more.

[Rodykitty]

I agree they are similar, but I also think Jaffar needs to drop as well.

Even if you manage to argue characters like Rebecca or Farina up, you still can't say that they should drop because you think they are bottom tier material (which they are not). Rath alone stop gaps them from dropping further without actual argument, and there is the issue of arguing Rath below Karel/Isadora, etc.

Also, do not expect Rebecca to rise. Archer has always been a terrible class in most games due to poor bases. Rebecca does not appear to be an exception, especially with huge durability issues.

Edited February 16, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

I think reading my debate with Reaver makes it very clear that Isadorable should be in tier above where she is now. Do I have to directly repost it here or something?

Rath has Experience rank contributions and eventually becomes decent. Karel and Jaffar? Always bad. Very poor contributions to Experience.

Idk, I think all three are extremely bad. Rath is definitely too high.

[Rodykitty]

I think reading my debate with Reaver makes it very clear that Isadorable should be in tier above where she is now. Do I have to directly repost it here or something?

See, people like you fall into a trap of not actually looking at a tier list and not paying attention to what characters are ordered. Saying that Isadora sits near Lucius is the same as saying she's better than Dart or Hawkeye. You're not going to get approval for this without a fight (which is most likely lost). Edited February 16, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

Isadora DOESN'T sit near Lucius. Lucius is clearly better. That wasn't my point.

Reading the debate, at least parts of my posts, will show Isadora's performance in the game, which is actually MUCH better than the units she's currently tiered with.

[Rodykitty]

Isadora DOESN'T sit near Lucius. Lucius is clearly better. That wasn't my point.

Reading the debate, at least parts of my posts, will show Isadora's performance in the game, which is actually MUCH better than the units she's currently tiered with.

Ctrl + F 'Karel'

Karel sucks terribly and never exists

This is all I found.

Ctrl + F 'Jaffar'

Jaffar not found.

[Inui]

Don't be an idiot, please. I'm not saying to read it for direct comparisons to Jaffar and Karel. First I must fix your brain. First it must be purged of "Isadora is bad" before we can move on. Comparing her to shit doesn't prove she's fine. Comparing her to Lucius does. Observe her ability which is displayed in those posts. Does that belong in the second lowest tier?

[Rodykitty]

This isn't Brawl. Characters in Low tier are actually somewhat viable due to poor performances of enemies in the later game.

Just because you think a character is bad doesn't mean you've actually proven that character is better or worse than another. Your opinion is not gospel truth here, and will not be reflected in the tier list without taking a humility pill and actually arguing properly.