FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

This isn't Brawl. Characters in Low tier are actually somewhat viable due to poor performances of enemies in the later game.

Just because you think a character is bad doesn't mean you've actually proven that character is better or worse than another. Your opinion is not gospel truth here, and will not be reflected in the tier list without taking a humility pill and actually arguing properly.

She's not "somewhat viable" though. If you look at the debate, you will see performance that is close to that of Lucius's, which implies Isadora is certainly way lower than she should be. If she's a comparable unit to Lucius, how is she worse than Karel and Jaffar by an entire tier when Lucius thoroughly thrashes them?

LOL @ someone here telling me to take a humility pill when the elitism here vastly exceeds me at my absolute worst before I grew up.

I presented my arguments in the form of a formal debate against a good debater. You should probably just read it. If not, I'll just directly post all of my points here or something, but that'd be gay when it's already right there.

[Mekkah]

Correct. No durability.

Thank you for your worthless comparison, good sir. I was unaware that Pent gains 0 levels for 1.5 chapters when he's got amazing offense and comes with a Physic staff. Perhaps a comparison where Pent is actually used should be made? If Louise is being fielded (very likely in PFoD given the huge amount of units you can take), then Pent has +3 Def/Res and +7 Evd. Give him two levels, and he's getting +1 HP, +3 Evd, and potentially +1 Def/Res.

That's just raw stats. Pent doesn't take counters most of the time. Karel is locked to swords; he's eating counters all day long. Pent's durability, even in your comparison, is much better.

Pent doesn't gain much by leveling up since his growths are pretty crummy, so I just went lazy and took his bases. Add +1 to all his stats and he's still close to Karel. You missed the point: Karel's concrete durability is roughly the same as Pent, and Pent is "Upper Mid" (though only because of availability issues). You can talk about 1-2 range avoiding counters (note the crit-OHKO-before-counters-section for Karel) all day, but that still ignores the point being made.

Oh, and Karel's not contributing much in PFoD regardless, so I guess Pent can enjoy his Louise support there. BBD slots are actually quite limited though, and obviously we don't have time to ferry both Pent and Louise to the frontlines there. I forgot how tight your unit slots in NoF are, but in any case Louise isn't very useful there because of how hard it is to shield her on those close corridors. Not from like Cavaliers, but flying things.

Unfortunately, your comparison to Kent is also meaningless. He's not 20/1 halfway through Chapter 27. Even in that comparison, having an Angelic Robe is an entire additional hit in most cases, and Kent's WTC gives him +15 Evd and +1 Def, and he has 1~2 range, so Kent is winning. How sad.

Same as with Pent: you pointmissed. I didn't want to show you Karel could match up Kent in durability. I'm saying that "Karel has no durability" is an outrageous claim to make if you think Kent is invincible.

What you have just shown is durability worse than 17/0 Farina's in Chapter 26.

Goodd job?

Even if that was true (it isn't - Farina is weak to bows), it in no way shows Karel to be bottom tier. Perhaps worse at combat than Farina, but not only is that irrelevant to the subject (should Karel be Bottom tier or not), it also ignores the opportunity cost of recruiting and promoting Farina.

Farina doesn't need a Killing Edge. She has access to lances that have more Atk than swords and she's going to be raping Karel in Str in no time (lol same Str 7 levels lower with a 20% growth advantage). She has stuff like the Horseslayer and Heavy Spear and Silver Lances for huge Atk on things.

Who cares what Farina "needs"? Why is Farina so relevant for you anyway? Karel uses a Killing Edge to have reasonable offense. Also, Heavy Spear/Horseslayer weigh her down like a brick, and she can't OHKO with them. Sounds like a bad choice, especially in CoD.

Cog of Destiny has two 23 Spd Valks, IIRC. One has Thunder, and the other has only staves. The one with staves might as well not even matter. The 23 Spd one? Karel's not doubling it. The rest have 15-18 AS, which is pretty fast, but Farina's doubling them in most cases if she's not using the Javelin, but I'd have a Javelin on her so she gets to counter with a Javelin and laugh at their attacks with her awesome Res.

The 23 Spd ones, Karel is as good as anyone against. He's not getting doubled, and taking little damage (numbers are in my previous post). He's not countering, but as I said, countering them with a lolJavelin might as well be not countering them, considering the consequences: you weaken them, but every other Valk runs around with a Physic Staff, and there's some other enemies with Recover staves, not to mention the possibility of missing.

As for Farina doubling them...well, she has to be like 20/4 just to double 15 AS Valkyries. Which are also non existant on my save (lowest is 18), but even if they're there it doesn't hurt Karel since he doubles those at base. For Farina to double ones with 18 Spd, she needs to be 20/11, and that's with something she's not weighed down by. So that's like, Iron Sword I suppose. Maybe Iron Lance, I cba looking that up, she might just lose 1 AS from that. Definitely not Javelin, Killer, Silver, etc. Karel has no trouble doubling with KE if he just gains two Spd level-ups (chances of that already outlined).

This isn't FE 6. Farina will still have good Hit with a Javelin. A supportless 20/8 Farina has 65 Hit against the 23 Spd Valk.

20/8? Hey, if you say so. I'm going to guess you didn't see the point by dondon about Farina's problem with the whole Monk-killing deal. And 65 hit...is just pretty shitty.

Karel's offense at range? Nonexistent, and he's one of the few units with nonexistent offense against the enemies in this chapter. Why he's even being fielded is beyond me. I guess he's being fielded to help me in a debate against him?

No, he can't counter them on enemy phase, but as I said, you need huge atk to kill these things on enemy phase anyway, and if you don't kill them before the begin of enemy phase they usually get healed. But even if you don't, the difference between throwing a Javelin at these on enemy phase (or a Mage countering their ~20 res) is very minimal. Not that living Valks are going to attack 1~2 ranged people if they have the choice of picking on something like Oswin or Sain or Dorcas with a powerful 1-range weapon in their hands.

Why he's being fielded? Perhaps to actually compare him to people? Not that a Farina comparison is helping you show he is Bottom tier in any way whatsoever.

Anyways, she has 75 Hit against the 18 Spd ones and more than that against others. This is if she has no supports. Fiora gives her a bit of Hit.

2 hit with a C. 5 with a B. And if Fiora is fielded, Farina's flying is contributing significantly less than if she's not. And it gives us a good way to end Crazed Beast early by having her kill the Monks instead of waiting until turn 5+.

WTDA, just what I want on him.[vs Generals in SoT]

A lot of them have axes.

Also, I'm currently debating Guy vs Priscilla with Red Fox, and Guy's Atk with full supports still isn't enough or is very barely enough to get Generals with the Armourslayer, so Karel is definitely not getting them at all.

Hence "a shot" - he'll have to crit. What's Farina going to do against those, anyway? Heavy Spear? Build her E sword rank to use Armorslayer?

And yeah, dondon, I forgot about Lancereaver. That makes Karel actually good against Wyverns, though it hurts his offense (cuts 25% crit), but survival is more important.

[Inui]

Pent doesn't gain much by leveling up since his growths are pretty crummy, so I just went lazy and took his bases. Add +1 to all his stats and he's still close to Karel. You missed the point: Karel's concrete durability is roughly the same as Pent, and Pent is "Upper Mid" (though only because of availability issues). You can talk about 1-2 range avoiding counters (note the crit-OHKO-before-counters-section for Karel) all day, but that still ignores the point being made.

Oh, and Karel's not contributing much in PFoD regardless, so I guess Pent can enjoy his Louise support there. BBD slots are actually quite limited though, and obviously we don't have time to ferry both Pent and Louise to the frontlines there. I forgot how tight your unit slots in NoF are, but in any case Louise isn't very useful there because of how hard it is to shield her on those close corridors. Not from like Cavaliers, but flying things.

Pent doesn't take counters AT ALL and ranged enemies like to avoid attacking him due to him countering them. When that is considered, Pent thoroughly beats him in durability. That can't just be discarded. Karel doesn't have that. Yes, he has a critical to avoid it half the time on most enemies, but ranged enemies like going for him and he still gets countered half the time.

You can't just say "here's Pent's stats and they are like Karel's in durability, and he's upper mid" without taking everything into account.

Same as with Pent: you pointmissed. I didn't want to show you Karel could match up Kent in durability. I'm saying that "Karel has no durability" is an outrageous claim to make if you think Kent is invincible.

20/1 Kent vs enemies at that time = invincible or nearly so. 20/8 Karel vs enemies when he joins = less durable than the vast majority of your units.

Even if that was true (it isn't - Farina is weak to bows), it in no way shows Karel to be bottom tier. Perhaps worse at combat than Farina, but not only is that irrelevant to the subject (should Karel be Bottom tier or not), it also ignores the opportunity cost of recruiting and promoting Farina.

Who cares what Farina "needs"? Why is Farina so relevant for you anyway? Karel uses a Killing Edge to have reasonable offense. Also, Heavy Spear/Horseslayer weigh her down like a brick, and she can't OHKO with them. Sounds like a bad choice, especially in CoD.

The 23 Spd ones, Karel is as good as anyone against. He's not getting doubled, and taking little damage (numbers are in my previous post). He's not countering, but as I said, countering them with a lolJavelin might as well be not countering them, considering the consequences: you weaken them, but every other Valk runs around with a Physic Staff, and there's some other enemies with Recover staves, not to mention the possibility of missing.

As for Farina doubling them...well, she has to be like 20/4 just to double 15 AS Valkyries. Which are also non existant on my save (lowest is 18), but even if they're there it doesn't hurt Karel since he doubles those at base. For Farina to double ones with 18 Spd, she needs to be 20/11, and that's with something she's not weighed down by. So that's like, Iron Sword I suppose. Maybe Iron Lance, I cba looking that up, she might just lose 1 AS from that. Definitely not Javelin, Killer, Silver, etc. Karel has no trouble doubling with KE if he just gains two Spd level-ups (chances of that already outlined).

20/8? Hey, if you say so. I'm going to guess you didn't see the point by dondon about Farina's problem with the whole Monk-killing deal. And 65 hit...is just pretty shitty.

No, he can't counter them on enemy phase, but as I said, you need huge atk to kill these things on enemy phase anyway, and if you don't kill them before the begin of enemy phase they usually get healed. But even if you don't, the difference between throwing a Javelin at these on enemy phase (or a Mage countering their ~20 res) is very minimal. Not that living Valks are going to attack 1~2 ranged people if they have the choice of picking on something like Oswin or Sain or Dorcas with a powerful 1-range weapon in their hands.

Why he's being fielded? Perhaps to actually compare him to people? Not that a Farina comparison is helping you show he is Bottom tier in any way whatsoever.

2 hit with a C. 5 with a B. And if Fiora is fielded, Farina's flying is contributing significantly less than if she's not. And it gives us a good way to end Crazed Beast early by having her kill the Monks instead of waiting until turn 5+.

I'm not going to address Farina stuff. Sorry. I already gave up on that cause until I find a way to defeat the Funds stuff. If I can't beat the Funds stuff, I can't do anything with her because everyone will automatically think she's shit and not look at what happens when you actually use her without sandbagging her. God dammit, I sound like Interceptor with Mia!

Some of the Valks have Elfire. Actually, I think plenty of them do. That means 15ish AS. As for the Valks and enemies in general being healed, only a few can get healed. There aren't enough enemies with healing staves to heal a bunch of them. Like, one to three or so will be healed. No big deal. Some units with range (not Karel) can damage a bunch of the enemies on the enemy phase so that anything will kill on the player phase.

My point is that Karel isn't providing anything in this chapter. He's providing failure. He's never doing anything exceptional. Why is he above Isadora, Bartre, and other units that have many positive contributions and actual potential? Karel never does anything of significance and is a bit of burden in many cases. He's clearly worse than where he is on this list in my eyes, as is Jaffar.

A lot of them have axes.

Yeah, and he still won't kill those too reliably. I'll show you.

Hence "a shot" - he'll have to crit. What's Farina going to do against those, anyway? Heavy Spear? Build her E sword rank to use Armorslayer?

VoD General: 43 HP, 21 Def, 12 Res

20/11 Guy with B Priscilla and an Armourslayer: 14x2 Dmg, 42 Crit, only needs one critical

Guy has supports and way better stats and he has issues killing this thing. Karel's going to have much worse issues, and his durability on the counter is pretty bad.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Inui

[Colonel M]

Don't say that. Saying something can never change is just silly. What if someone (like me) looks at Funds and cash and all that and shows it truly is a joke rank and her costing that cash means little? Then she rises a lot for sure.

Once you do, sure. Until then, no. Bottom Tier it is.

Certainly better than RATH. Rebecca has damaging utility early on, supports Lowen to give him much better offense, and she can and will kill anything she attacks on her turn. It's easy to replicate enemy phase offense. Anyone can clear out the garbage on enemy phase. Rebecca can attack the tougher and more dangerous shit like Wyvern Lords, Heroes, etc. and get rid of them for you quite easily. Rath can never do that and he just sucks.

Her durability is nearly infinite due to having the best Evd in the game.

Evidence to support this? Uh... not found.

So I need to compare super shit to super shit because you don't just see how bad those guys are? Meh. Wasting my time for no reason...

Well, Horio, you also are wasting my time if you don't. That's how tier lists should work: compare two units, see who's better. You just saying it makes you already sound elitist.

holy fucking shit @ the insane Farina hate because she costs money

There's no way she's as bad as the absolute bottom tiers at all. When used, she is very thoroughly thrashing the likes of Karel and Jaffar in every aspect possible. Even if she costs a lot to do that, Karel and Jaffar are still vastly outclassed by her when she's fielded and you don't sandbag her. That means something.

It's too easy to sandbag her. Karel and Jaffar don't even cost an extra 10K to promote. Hell, I can split the difference between Farina's net cost of 50K and give them each 25K for whatever they want. Killing Edges to help them kill is appreciated.

If anything, Karel and Jaffar should be moved down there due to nearly 0 positive contributions even if you field them and try to make them good. At least Farina eventually produces good combat and helps the Experience rank a lot.

Your lack of proof disturbs me. Or you dodge the point and explain how another unit can do it. We're asking what Karel can do, not Pent.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

You are no place to call me elitist. None of you are. I've never encountered such an elitist bunch. I'm having FEFFers that have dealt with my insane elitism for over half a decade saying "wow, I never thought a bunch of people could be worse than Inui" and that is very extreme. Either you people deserve a medal for such an achievement or you should be locked away from society for being so detrimental towards discussion. I don't know what else to say.

So many arguments just get ignored here due to how elitist people are. Hey guess what? Your tier list directly states Karel/Jaffar > Isadora with absolutely no proof. I posted a link to a debate showing that Isadora can be debated to be on par with Lucius, and it just got entirely ignored. I am providing evidence. You're not.

[Rodykitty]

She's not "somewhat viable" though. If you look at the debate, you will see performance that is close to that of Lucius's, which implies Isadora is certainly way lower than she should be. If she's a comparable unit to Lucius, how is she worse than Karel and Jaffar by an entire tier when Lucius thoroughly thrashes them?

Maybe she is better than them, but there hasn't been any sort of proof. Even I imagine the possibility of it, but I can't speak on her behalf since I was never able to use her past her joining chapter.

You also haven't considered the possibility of Karel or Jaffar comparing to Lucius all the same. Remember that availability is a large factor that gives a unit like Lucius more time to be useful.

LOL @ someone here telling me to take a humility pill when the elitism here vastly exceeds me at my absolute worst before I grew up.

I've eaten the most disgusting humble pie due to vast amounts of anger and stubbornness, as well as flawed arguments I have made in the past. Edited February 16, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

Maybe she is better than them, but there hasn't been any sort of proof. Even I imagine the possibility of it, but I can't speak on her behalf since I was never able to use her past her joining chapter.

The proof is right there in the debate. Maybe the supports and levels are slightly off, but that'd put Lucius in the same situation anyways, Isadora's comparing very well to Lucius from the moment she joins (she starts off better) and she compares forever. Wins durability and mobility, loses offense and doesn't have staves. It's a close contest considering the massive tier gap shown here.

You also haven't considered the possibility of Karel or Jaffar comparing to Lucius all the same. Remember that availability is a large factor that gives a unit like Lucius more time to be useful.

If Isadora with her supports and h4x awesome class still loses to Lucius, those scr00bs are certainly being owned since they have neither of those benefits. Why do very obvious things need to be explained? That's so much wasted time.

I suppose tomorrow I can construct arguments to get Isadora out of that tier, drop Karel and Jaffar, and move Rebecca up a little bit. It's past 4am now, though.

[Mekkah]

Pent doesn't take counters AT ALL and ranged enemies like to avoid attacking him due to him countering them. When that is considered, Pent thoroughly beats him in durability. That can't just be discarded. Karel doesn't have that. Yes, he has a critical to avoid it half the time on most enemies, but ranged enemies like going for him and he still gets countered half the time.

You can't just say "here's Pent's stats and they are like Karel's in durability, and he's upper mid" without taking everything into account.

IF you think that's what I'm saying, you need to read more thoroughly. You are telling me Karel is Bottom tier. Pent is like a Top tier when he is actually there. There is not a five tier gap between Pent and Karel at this point.

20/1 Kent vs enemies at that time = invincible or nearly so. 20/8 Karel vs enemies when he joins = less durable than the vast majority of your units.

That's not what you said earlier - you said Karel has "no durability". That implies something like getting one-shotted, or facing crit rates all the time.

I'm not going to address Farina stuff. Sorry. I already gave up on that cause until I find a way to defeat the Funds stuff. If I can't beat the Funds stuff, I can't do anything with her because everyone will automatically think she's shit and not look at what happens when you actually use her without sandbagging her. God dammit, I sound like Interceptor with Mia!

dondon showed what her performance is like even if we do recruit her. I showed what her performance was like against Karel's. Neither of those took off points for her funds problem.

Some of the Valks have Elfire. Actually, I think plenty of them do. That means 15ish AS. As for the Valks and enemies in general being healed, only a few can get healed. There aren't enough enemies with healing staves to heal a bunch of them. Like, one to three or so will be healed. No big deal. Some units with range (not Karel) can damage a bunch of the enemies on the enemy phase so that anything will kill on the player phase.

I count two Elfire Valks in the group of five near the shrine. The ones that come out of the forts in the north all have Thunder. And every single one of them carries a Physic Staff (and some have Recover). You can deny it all you want, or you can fact check it. Combine that with the fact that they will prioritize on units that don't have 1-2 range equipped (Wolf Beil Hector, Silver people, Brave people, Horseslayers), or don't counter for much damage (Pent, Erk, etc), as well as the fact that the best way to take them out on player phase is using 1-range to begin with (aforemenionted power weapons)...countering with a Javelin really doesn't have much worth.

My point is that Karel isn't providing anything in this chapter. He's providing failure. He's never doing anything exceptional.

He's a dude that uses weapons with high-ish Res. That alone is worth considering. He can attack something with a Killing Edge. If he crits, awesome, one less Valk. If he doesn't, he takes little damage, and someone else can off it without taking a counter before it gets healed. How is this not useful at all? How is this a burden?

Yeah, and he still won't kill those [axe gens] too reliably. I'll show you.

That's not the point. You said he's facing WTD. He's not against those. WTD/WTA doesn't matter too much when it comes to offense.

VoD General: 43 HP, 21 Def, 12 Res

20/11 Guy with B Priscilla and an Armourslayer: 14x2 Dmg, 42 Crit, only needs one critical

Guy has supports and way better stats and he has issues killing this thing. Karel's going to have much worse issues, and his durability on the counter is pretty bad.

20/11 Guy has 17.1 str. B Pris makes it 19.

Karel only needs to proc str once to match Guy without the B Priscilla. If he procs twice, we have 13x2. That's enough to kill Generals with up to 52 hp. Might need three for some tougher ones.

[Inui]

Guy has 18.1 Str at 20/11. He has a base of 8 in HM. For some reason you gave him a base of 7. The fact that Guy with way better offense (more Atk, way more Crit) is iffy on killing those things shows that Karel is certainly having bigger issues. Karel missing a 30ish critical twice isn't that unlikely, and his Atk is worse, so eh.

I intend on going into much further detail on several things tomorrow. Specifically:

-Karel needs to drop a tier.

-Jaffar needs to drop a tier.

-Isadora needs to shoot up a tier or even two.

-Lyn needs to drop a tier.

-Rebecca needs to be above Rath.

-Bartre should be the top of low tier.

I want to work on the lower tiers first since those receive the least amount of exposure. I can attack glaring errors at the top later, like stuff involving the Paladins, the units I probably know the most about by far.

Edit: Small argument about Priscilla being overrated:

If Priscilla heals every single turn possible based on the Tactics requirements, she's level 8-9 when you get the first Guiding Ring, making her automatically not the first one to promote. There's no way around that. Considering you're not maxing out on turns or healing every single turn, her level is probably around 7 instead, making it even worse. Serra? She has LHM. She's around level 12-13 when you get that Guiding Ring. Erk's probably around the same level, possibly higher. Lucius has a small level lead on Priscilla that is likely to expand. Canas is at the same level but has access to more EXP. Based on this, Priscilla will never be promoting before you steal the Guiding Ring in Chapter 23, and her even getting that one over a 20/0 Canas/Lucius is questionable, meaning she could be waiting until Chapter 24's Earth Seal. Lol, this is a huge problem people need to realize about Priscilla. Not being able to fight for that long while others gain the ability to heal makes her abilities only go down in usefulness since they become less unique.

Edit again: I think Marcus is possibly better than her.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Inui

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Isadorable? I don't think so, especially when a debate between her and FUCKING LUCIUS LOL was close when Lucius is clearly much better.

Reading through that, I thought that Lucius was easily way better.

[Colonel M]

About Priscilla being overrated:

I don't think I can just drop Priscilla because she is incapable of promoting in Chapter 19. Yes, that could be seen as a liability; however, her horse keeps up with the mobile units that are charging ahead, which means she'll draw more HEXP (Heal EXP) from them. Serra at least has the lower end Movement units such as Raven, Lyn, and Eliwood (Hector isn't too far from invincibility, though he'll probably need some healing from time to time). Either way, Priscilla not promoting isn't an issue until she actually hits Level 20. Until then, due to her drawing from a pool that has little competition for a while (until promoted Erk / Canas / Lucius come around first, then later Pent) will grant her the capabilities of leveling up faster. She makes just about every rank easier to deal with. She definitely makes a major impact with the Survival rank, which is very important because it exercises -0- deaths, which Priscilla is alleviating. I don't think I really need to review on her being a major plus with the EXP Rank either since you actually debated with her as well.

While Serra is good, she poses some problems. First off, you can't get as much EXP padding from Serra as you can from Priscilla. While an over leveled Serra has the opportunity to approach combat, she doesn't gain much CEXP to begin with, meaning that her combat should only be used as emergencies. Every level that you get out of LHM with Serra is that much more EXP that you're losing with the EXP rank. From a personal standpoint, I think it's actually healthier just to blitzkreig LHM and just give Serra her Level 6-8 projection. By doing so, you can still assure that Serra can promote earlier and you get a little more EXP out of it in return.

The problem is after a lot of our units promote that Priscilla has no troubles keeping up with the Paladin squad while Serra has trouble. From what I assume... we can use 2 of them with the Knight Crest. There's one out in Chapter 26, which I guess isn't TOO far and if we didn't powerlevel Lowen and instead used the Character rotation he could get that item. Of course, it can also be seen as a free 10000 (50000 if you wish to sell it) to the Funds Rank, so either way. So we have up to 2 Paladins... and maybe Marcus and / or Isadora. That's 4 units that Priscilla has no issues keeping up with while Serra is having a bit more difficulty with that. Not to mention that Priscilla supports Raven and Erk easily (20+3 and 15+3), meaning that holding her back isn't much of an issue either.

With Priscilla you have her movement to your flexibility. Serra doesn't have this much of an advantage, so she has to rely on the foot units to get her EXP from as well. Then when you do consider the Guiding Ring it could hurt her chances even more as a promoted Canas / Erk / Lucius can heal as well, which means that she has competition from not only Priscilla holding back, but also any of those Mages that we just promoted.

The main advantages with Serra is her availability edge and that she's helping for the tougher portions of the time. On top of her helping the Survival and EXP Rank padding, this justifies her spot. But, to say that Priscilla is overrated and Serra is not is a high assumption, in my opinion. I don't even think that they can even drop to High unless you prove their liability in the Survival Rank I guess, but maybe you can prove me wrong.

I'm looking at Jaffar and Karel vs. someone like Louise. Here:

10 Karel - 32.4 HP | 16.6 Str | 24 Skl | 21 Spd | 15.6 Luck | 13.2 Def | 12.3 Res

Killing Edge - 25.6 Atk, 21 AS, 57 Crit, 57 Avoid, 32 HP, 13 Def, 12 Res

Steel Sword - 24.6 Atk, 20 AS, 27 Crit, 55.6 Avoid

B Jaffar - 34 HP | 19 Str | 25 Skl | 24 Spd | 10 Luck | 15 Def | 11 Res

Killing Edge - 28 Atk, 24 AS, 42 Crit, 58 Avoid, 34 HP, 15 Def, 11 Res

Steel Sword - 27 Atk, 22 AS, 12 Crit, 54 Avoid

7 Louise (A Pent) - 29.8 HP | 13.2 Str | 15.2 Skl | 18.2 Spd | 16.9 Luck | 9.6 Def | 12.9 Res

Killer Bow - 23 Atk, 17 AS, 44 Crit, 58 Avoid, 30 HP, 13 Def, 16 Res

Brave Bow - 24 Atk, 12 AS, 14 Crit, 41 Avoid

I will also note that Louise might have the Silver Bow in reserve.

So just glancing, Karel and Jaffar using Steel Swords already beat her by 1 Atk offensively, which is the same as +2 Damage if they don't Crit.

So let's look at this map since... I don't have any enemy stats!

This be 28X

Hm... might need to grab the Lancereaver on this one too. With it, Jaffar and Karel gain +30 Avoid and a little crit on top of it. Not to mention +2 Atk from WTA. So now looking at the stats from the... earlier chapters since I don't have any HHM stats on me, we can see:

L10 Wyverns

Twenty-eight have Steel Lances: 23-24 Atk, 84-88 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 10-14 Avo, 5-7 AS
Eight have a Javelin: 18-21 Atk, 79-81 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 14-18 Avo, 7-9 AS
Eight have an Iron Lance: 19-21 Atk, 92-96 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 16-18 Avo, 8-9 AS
30-33 Hp, 11-12 Def, 1-3 Res

The relevant issues is the Hit to be honest, and possibly Atk. Using Jaffar (-1 AS, so 56 Avoid before we factor the Lancereaver's 30), this gives Jaffar 86 Avoid. The Iron Lance Wyverns are the most accurate with their 96 Hit, which becomes 10% displayed, or 2.10% true. You might as well forget about being hit. So now Karel's offense since he's weaker. Add 2 due to WTA for 27.6 Atk. It can KO any 32 HP | 11 Def on down or 30 HP | 12 Def. However, if that Str point rounds up it only fails to KO the 33 HP | 12 Def, which I don't think is... possible maybe. I think it's also obvious that the crit is in your favor here. Oh yeah, with the Killer Bow she can't exactly ORKO, which can leave her at a chance of taking a counterattack attacking the Javelin Wyverns.

Now I don't think I need to state the obvious problem here: due to enemy #s and their weaker stats, the Enemy Phase is valuable. This is where most of the killing happens. Jaffar and Karel may lack the capability to counter the 2 ranged units; however, this does not make them useless. Louise, on the other hand, has no resource that can help her counterattack. She has a 23% displayed on her, or 10.81 True. This means every 10 attacks she is likely taking a counterattack while it takes Jaffar and Karel... almost 1 out of 50. That's huge.

I'm going to use the Hero sample here, but I'm going to pretend his weapon is just -, but we'll use the Hit from it anyway:

Heroes: 2 L1 Heroes w/ Steel Swords standing near Linus; non-aggressive

21-22 Atk, 109 Hit, 8 Crit----41 Hp, 13 Def, 7 Res, 28-30 Avo, 14-15 AS

1 L10 Hero w/ a dropped Silver Sword, 3 spaces to the left of the armory entrance, left-middle side of the map

29 Atk, 118 Hit, 9 Crit----47 Hp, 16 Def, 8 Res, 34 Avo, 17 AS

The former is what he probably wields, the latter is a possibility. I dunno. Anyway, notice the Hit for the Hero here. 109. Let's flow with that. They all have ~51% Displayed, so the durability matters a little bit more. But notice that AS. Because Louise loses ` AS from her Killer Bow, she cannot double them whatsoever. Meanwhile, Jaffar and Karel can double the ones that are possibly higher leveled for quite a while. They aren't giving in so easily.

In short: Archers just suck in this game. They really do. Karel and Jaffar at least attribute to the Combat rank by killing stuff on the Enemy Phase. Louise only has 1 Attack per turn while Jaffar and Karel have 2 or more.

Well, guess I'm going to have to start defending Lyn I guess, but I think she's too high myself.

[Life]

Hm... might need to grab the Lancereaver on this one too. With it, Jaffar and Karel gain +30 Avoid and a little crit on top of it. Not to mention +2 Atk from WTA. So now looking at the stats from the... earlier chapters since I don't have any HHM stats on me, we can see:

Little bit of a math fail here. It's -15 Hit for the enemy and +1 Atk for Karel and Jaffar. WTA/D doesn't affect Avo or Def, only Hit and Atk.

[Colonel M]

Little bit of a math fail here. It's -15 Hit for the enemy and +1 Atk for Karel and Jaffar. WTA/D doesn't affect Avo or Def, only Hit and Atk.

It practically gives +2 Def (-2 Atk) and +30 Avoid (-30 Hit from the enemy). Remember that Reavers DOUBLE these parameters.

[Life]

It practically gives +2 Def (-2 Atk) and +30 Avoid (-30 Hit from the enemy). Remember that Reavers DOUBLE these parameters.

The Reavers do that? Funny, I never noticed.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/calc.html

CTRL + F "Reaver"

[Colonel M]

I don't think much opposition is going to arise lowering Lyn down a tier. Doing so now.

I guess the question is if Karel and Jaffar deserve their Lower Mid placement. Granted they have an Enemy Phase (which is much of Low's problem if you notice, or the major cost in recruitment in Farina's case). Makes me question Lyn a bit more to see if she's this low myself since I don't think there should be a tier seperation on Lyn and Jaffar / Karel at all. In fact, I could probably buy Lyn < them if good arguments arise I guess.

[Inui]

About Priscilla being overrated:

I don't think I can just drop Priscilla because she is incapable of promoting in Chapter 19. Yes, that could be seen as a liability; however, her horse keeps up with the mobile units that are charging ahead, which means she'll draw more HEXP (Heal EXP) from them. Serra at least has the lower end Movement units such as Raven, Lyn, and Eliwood (Hector isn't too far from invincibility, though he'll probably need some healing from time to time). Either way, Priscilla not promoting isn't an issue until she actually hits Level 20. Until then, due to her drawing from a pool that has little competition for a while (until promoted Erk / Canas / Lucius come around first, then later Pent) will grant her the capabilities of leveling up faster. She makes just about every rank easier to deal with. She definitely makes a major impact with the Survival rank, which is very important because it exercises -0- deaths, which Priscilla is alleviating. I don't think I really need to review on her being a major plus with the EXP Rank either since you actually debated with her as well.

Fair enough, which is why she's really good and probably top tier anyways.

While Serra is good, she poses some problems. First off, you can't get as much EXP padding from Serra as you can from Priscilla. While an over leveled Serra has the opportunity to approach combat, she doesn't gain much CEXP to begin with, meaning that her combat should only be used as emergencies. Every level that you get out of LHM with Serra is that much more EXP that you're losing with the EXP rank. From a personal standpoint, I think it's actually healthier just to blitzkreig LHM and just give Serra her Level 6-8 projection. By doing so, you can still assure that Serra can promote earlier and you get a little more EXP out of it in return.

Since Serra is the best choice for the first Guiding Ring, she gets +1 Mov and weaponry, making her mobility shoot way up. Have you seen her stats? She's far from bad at fighting. She's fast and has decent Mag.

Every level you get out of LHM makes her get closer to 20/20, but she won't hit it anyways. Serra maintains a big level lead on Priscilla and will end up at a much higher level than her. Promoting at level 20 in 19x and then taking into account her ability to fight and her class bonus, she can be at quite a high level by the time Priscilla can even dream of promoting. Serra makes up for having less levels to gain total by gaining a lot anyways. 20/15 Serra contributes about the same as 20/10 Priscilla to Experience.

The problem is after a lot of our units promote that Priscilla has no troubles keeping up with the Paladin squad while Serra has trouble. From what I assume... we can use 2 of them with the Knight Crest. There's one out in Chapter 26, which I guess isn't TOO far and if we didn't powerlevel Lowen and instead used the Character rotation he could get that item. Of course, it can also be seen as a free 10000 (50000 if you wish to sell it) to the Funds Rank, so either way. So we have up to 2 Paladins... and maybe Marcus and / or Isadora. That's 4 units that Priscilla has no issues keeping up with while Serra is having a bit more difficulty with that. Not to mention that Priscilla supports Raven and Erk easily (20+3 and 15+3), meaning that holding her back isn't much of an issue either.

6 Mov + ability to fight + more durability vs 7 Mov. I'd say Serra wins or it's even. If Priscilla is building supports with 5-6 Mov units, then her 1 Mov win doesn't mean much, does it?

With Priscilla you have her movement to your flexibility. Serra doesn't have this much of an advantage, so she has to rely on the foot units to get her EXP from as well. Then when you do consider the Guiding Ring it could hurt her chances even more as a promoted Canas / Erk / Lucius can heal as well, which means that she has competition from not only Priscilla holding back, but also any of those Mages that we just promoted.

Serra doesn't really have Guiding Ring issues. She gets the first one. Why would anyone else get it? Letting a healer attack and considering her class bonus to EXP...she's the clear winner. Priscilla, however, has issues due to losing in level to every other magic user, and they are all good. Serra's advantages in availability and being able to enter combat significantly earlier outweigh Priscilla's Mov.

The main advantages with Serra is her availability edge and that she's helping for the tougher portions of the time. On top of her helping the Survival and EXP Rank padding, this justifies her spot. But, to say that Priscilla is overrated and Serra is not is a high assumption, in my opinion. I don't even think that they can even drop to High unless you prove their liability in the Survival Rank I guess, but maybe you can prove me wrong.

Priscilla is still top tier. She's just near the bottom of it. Serra's near the top of it. I think Serra is the best character in the game.

Btw, I hate Serra.

I don't think much opposition is going to arise lowering Lyn down a tier. Doing so now.

I guess the question is if Karel and Jaffar deserve their Lower Mid placement. Granted they have an Enemy Phase (which is much of Low's problem if you notice, or the major cost in recruitment in Farina's case). Makes me question Lyn a bit more to see if she's this low myself since I don't think there should be a tier seperation on Lyn and Jaffar / Karel at all. In fact, I could probably buy Lyn < them if good arguments arise I guess.

Lyn is horrible. I first realized it when Reikken showed an extremely clear tier gap between her and Isadora at FEFF, which makes me frown at this list for Lyn being two tiers above a better unit. I like Isadorable and shall prove she's okay later.

They don't. They suck. I'll get to it later if you don't believe me. I'm going out to lunch with my mom and grandmother soon.

[Colonel M]

I also haven't been on FEF and Reikken never addressed Lyndis here before. I think either way I might be able to buy Isadora up perhaps... but a few things do trouble me regarding her durability (28 HP | 8 Def??? That's almost Lyndis-sized) and I can't really say her AS problems aren't that magnified (she has 11 AS with a Killer Axe, for example). She probably won't ever be using Axes unless she can double the really slow enemies like the Armor Knights and some of the Cavaliers. I guess the Killer Lance gives her +2 AS, which helps her double the Iron Lance Wyvern Knights better too.

I think Lyn should just be pummeling, but I at least want to hear what others have to say on the issue first.

Also, I think it's fine that you wanted Priscilla lower in Top... except the only unit below her is Ninian / Nils which brings the whole Dance utility vs. whatever. Serra is below Raven and Matthew... I don't think it's really going to happen but... maybe you can prove me wrong about it.

I did whiff this, and I'll address the other stuff later if I need to:

Serra doesn't really have Guiding Ring issues. She gets the first one. Why would anyone else get it? Letting a healer attack and considering her class bonus to EXP...she's the clear winner. Priscilla, however, has issues due to losing in level to every other magic user, and they are all good. Serra's advantages in availability and being able to enter combat significantly earlier outweigh Priscilla's Mov.

To be quite honest I never knew about the Class bonus, but there is another thing to consider:

15/1 Serra:

27 HP | 10 Mag | 11.2 Skl | 14.6 Spd | 1.4 Luck | 6.1 Def | 14.7 Res

Light - 14 Atk, 13.6 AS

I know for a fact that this isn't really KOing anything since enemies have Res (granted, little).

26.4 HP | 10.9 Mag | 9.8 Skl | 11.7 Spd | 7.5 Luck | 7.5 Def | 11.9 Res

Flux - 17.9 Atk, 11.7 AS

Now I checked Chapter 21 just for a small reference. Canas is KOing a bit more when he doubles than Serra. Granted, they will probably be at higher levels anyway and I don't really know how well to weigh in her boosted CEXP. Recall that Jaffar gets this too, especially if he Silences someone (where he gets double the CEXP IIRC).

Edited February 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Life]

My own opinion on Lyn is a "promote if she turns out good".

Remember that she hast to be trained to around level 15~17 (assuming that both Hector and Eliwood don't max out their levels yet) in order to get Geitz. She's got a very strong case for a high unpromoted level at the very least. If he stats turn out good, I suggest a promotion. If they don't, then don't.

She also has the Mani Katti which counts for something as it's 45 uses for the only FREE Prf weapon before Light.

[Inui]

Ninian/Nils above Priscilla is really sensible. I'd love to see CATS come in and show it since his dancer arguments are awesome.

Serra should probably wait a little to promote. She can abuse Torch in 19 and get in some heals and stuff and probably promote during 19x at level 20, giving her much more room to hit higher levels total should you use her a lot, and you should since she has a class bonus and heals. Priscilla can get some uses of the Torch, of course, but Serra's the one actually nearing 20/0 and gets to it without much effort.

Isadora's durability is not anything like Lyn's. Lyn doesn't have Isadora's base HP until 19/0 and doesn't have her base Def until after promotion. Isadora maintains big durability wins on her due to this since Isadora won't be anywhere near her base when Lyn finally promotes. On top of beating Lyn in HP/Def when she shows up, she has full WT control and doesn't have to worry about lances, swords, and the Swordreaver Fighters everywhere in her joining chapter. In fact, she kinda rapes everything there. I guess I can go pull the data from my old debate with Reaver if you don't believe me. I think she even gets the Wyverns in one turn with a Steel Sword, but I could be wrong, but she has Silver/Killer, so w/e.

As for her Con, why not give her a Body Ring? Sure, it's a resource that she's taking from the team, but it's still 2,000 Gold cheaper than a promotional item and nobody else really cares about it. Other Paladins? Already have good Con. Guy and Raven? Already have gdlk Spd and ignore Spd losses. Magic tomes are light and the users of said tomes have good Spd, so they don't really care for it. Also, I think you get two of them, so she only needs to get one. If Isadora gets a Body Ring, she's suddenly doubling Mercs with Silver and has far more doubling potential with axes, which ups her offense by quite a bit. It's a clear and noticeable benefit.

[Balcerzak]

Ninian/Nils above Priscilla is really sensible. I'd love to see CATS come in and show it since his dancer arguments are awesome.

Serra should probably wait a little to promote. She can abuse Torch in 19 and get in some heals and stuff and probably promote during 19x at level 20, giving her much more room to hit higher levels total should you use her a lot, and you should since she has a class bonus and heals. Priscilla can get some uses of the Torch, of course, but Serra's the one actually nearing 20/0 and gets to it without much effort.

You only just get Torch Staff in Chapter 19, provided you can catch it, which is nontrivial. Likely Marcus or one of your cavs is the person to reach the Thief, and will be well ahead of the rest of the group at this point. Serra will be on the back lines, and unlikely to actually get to them swiftly (if they have inventory space/choose to keep it), or would have to abandon healing to go pick it up from Merlinus (more likely scenario). I really don't think it's plausible she can see much Torch abuse here at all, and honestly she'd be better spamming Heal here because your dudes are definitely getting hurt this chapter. Furthermore, since you're going to want to be using both Serra and Priscilla, and there's the issue of small deploy lists, they'll often have to be alternated. Priscilla will have dibs on Ch17 for obvious reasons at the very least, and likely at least one other chapter. Maybe my experience is atypical, but on my current HHM, I only have Serra at level 16.41 and Priscilla at level 9.03 just having finished Dragon's Gate. Nowhere near where I'd consider promoting either of them. In my EHM run Serra didn't hit level 20 until after finishing Living Legend, but this was at the expense of gimping Prissy, who was left behind at only level 7.12. (For reference: Prissy didn't manage to promote that run until halfway through Battle Before Dawn.)

Edited February 16, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Inui]

You only just get Torch Staff in Chapter 19, provided you can catch it, which is nontrivial. Likely Marcus or one of your cavs is the person to reach the Thief, and will be well ahead of the rest of the group at this point. Serra will be on the back lines, and unlikely to actually get to them swiftly (if they have inventory space/choose to keep it), or would have to abandon healing to go pick it up from Merlinus (more likely scenario). I really don't think it's plausible she can see much Torch abuse here at all, and honestly she'd be better spamming Heal here because your dudes are definitely getting hurt this chapter.

She can use Heal/Mend before getting Torch and at least get a few turns out of it. It can be traded to her midway through the chapter. It's not like your Cavaliers and Marcus are moving super fast with forests everywhere, and then Uhai is a pain in the ass to kill quickly on top of that.

Furthermore, since you're going to want to be using both Serra and Priscilla, and there's the issue of small deploy lists, they'll often have to be alternated.

Why are we alternating healers, the best units for Experience and the ones that need as much use as possible to be able to promote? That doesn't make sense.

Priscilla will have dibs on Ch17 for obvious reasons at the very least, and likely at least one other chapter.

What are the obvious reasons? Why not bring both? Why not bring Serra because her supports are slower and need to build and she's much better and closer to promotion? Bringing Priscilla won't let her use the first Guiding Ring at 20/0 like bringing Serra will.

Maybe my experience is atypical, but on my current HHM, I only have Serra at level 16.41 and Priscilla at level 9.03 just having finished Dragon's Gate. Nowhere near where I'd consider promoting either of them. In my EHM run Serra didn't hit level 20 until after finishing Living Legend, but this was at the expense of gimping Prissy, who was left behind at only level 7.12. (For reference: Prissy didn't manage to promote that run until halfway through Battle Before Dawn.)

This is your experience indeed, and it could be atypical, but it does help prove what I stated. Priscilla is not a viable candidate for the first or second Guiding Rings and is barely a candidate for the third. I see no reason to delay Serra's promotion even further. Just promote her at level 17 and be done with it. She can finally attack and she's not wasting levels anyways since she won't really hit 20/20.

[Balcerzak]

Furthermore, since you're going to want to be using both Serra and Priscilla, and there's the issue of small deploy lists, they'll often have to be alternated.

Why are we alternating healers, the best units for Experience and the ones that need as much use as possible to be able to promote? That doesn't make sense.

Because they are the best units for Experience, it makes sense to be using both of them. Often the size of available deployment prohibits using them both on the same map. Healers like being leveled for avoid, so they don't mind if an Archer or mage takes a potshot at them. If you focus entirely on Serra until she promotes before trying to use Priscilla at all, her already poor durability will be even worse, as the enemies have grown and she has not.

Priscilla will have dibs on Ch17 for obvious reasons at the very least

What are the obvious reasons? Why not bring both? Why not bring Serra because her supports are slower and need to build and she's much better and closer to promotion? Bringing Priscilla won't let her use the first Guiding Ring at 20/0 like bringing Serra will.

Recruiting Raven. You can't realistically bring both, because you need all the combat you can get to rush to get the northern Thief, if you have Matthew in the lower area pilfering, Florina waiting to ferry him (per your suggestion), and two useless healers, that leaves you four combat units trying to clear out the horde clogging up the end of the central corridor. If that's not a nightmare, I don't know what is.

This is your experience indeed, and it could be atypical, but it does help prove what I stated. Priscilla is not a viable candidate for the first or second Guiding Rings and is barely a candidate for the third. I see no reason to delay Serra's promotion even further. Just promote her at level 17 and be done with it. She can finally attack and she's not wasting levels anyways since she won't really hit 20/20.

Oh, I fully agree Priscilla doesn't get an early ring ever, anyone arguing otherwise would bring me an inward chuckle at the very least. The reason I'm wary of early promoting any of the dedicated healers is that even with class bonus Promoted Combat XP gain is weak, and halved Staves XP is miserable. It could turn out that I'm worrying overmuch, due to 0 req chapters making XP easier than Eliwood mode, but I'm not taking chances here.

[Mekkah]

Recruiting Raven. You can't realistically bring both, because you need all the combat you can get to rush to get the northern Thief, if you have Matthew in the lower area pilfering, Florina waiting to ferry him (per your suggestion), and two useless healers, that leaves you four combat units trying to clear out the horde clogging up the end of the central corridor. If that's not a nightmare, I don't know what is.

Why ferry Matthew to the other chest room with Florina? That saves two turns at most (one because she can rescue then canto after he grabbed the second chest, another because she has 1 more mov), but it's much shorter to just kill the north thief after he grabs the Knight Crest, and leave the Silver Sword.

[Balcerzak]

Why ferry Matthew to the other chest room with Florina? That saves two turns at most (one because she can rescue then canto after he grabbed the second chest, another because she has 1 more mov), but it's much shorter to just kill the north thief after he grabs the Knight Crest, and leave the Silver Sword.

I personally do exactly what you recommend, but Inui was hyping up grabbing that Silver Sword, so I was going to hold him to his previously recommended course of action.