FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Colonel M]

Basically the goal being to S Rank. Pretty simple shit here.

-Top-

Matthew

Raven

Serra

Priscilla

Ninian/Nils

-High-

Marcus

Oswin

Hector

Sain

Kent

Lowen

Guy

Erk

Eliwood

Florina

-Upper Mid-

Pent

Lucius

Harken

Dorcas

Geitz

Legault

Fiora

Canas

-Lower Mid-

Hawkeye

Heath

Athos

Lyn

Isadora

Jaffar

Bartre

-Low-

Karel

Vaida

Dart

Merlinus

Rebecca

Rath

Louise

Wil

Nino

Farina

-Bottom-

Karla

Wallace

Renault

Edited March 2, 2010 by Colonel M

[HJ.]

I thought even Fuch himself agreed to move Canas above Lucius, at the very least? Or are we still doing that "no messing with the actual tier"-thing?

[Colonel M]

Is it possible you can re-bring the argument in here? Just curious to hear it because Canas kind of screws up the funds rank with Luna and Nosferatu, which would be my main qualms with Canas > Lucius. That and Lucius's C Staves, but let's see what we have first.

[Ether]

Guess I should repost this here.

Looking at Rath vs. Isadora,he never really pulls ahead by a lot.Even lategame he only has +1 Str,but Isadora does have access to Axes if she needs them.At --/10,if she has 20 Spd, she will have 15 AS with a killer Axe,which should still be pretty reliable considering HHM mode enemies,and there is always the possibility that she gets the body ring,since there aren't too many people desperate for one,and giving a unit the ability to use axes more effectively with high mobility is easily one of the better uses of them.

But anyway,even considering she doesn't grab the body ring,the difference between the two is fairly small,and Isadora still has superior enemy phase due to Silvers,since Rath having A swords seems suspect.

Take into account that she has all of these advantages earlier,to a greater extent,and that she doesn't need a promo item(not too big,but with Silver card that's 8K of Half price killers/silvers/physics/whatever, or funds rank wiggle room)

I just don;t see him rising over her,but,I'm not an expert at this particular fire emblem,so feel free to point out anything that seems flawed here.

[CATS]

If Canas can't use Luna and Nosferatu, Lucius can't use Restore and Barrier. Restore and Barrier are 200 and 150G per use. Luna and Nosferatu are 150 and 160G per use.

[HJ.]

Is it possible you can re-bring the argument in here? Just curious to hear it because Canas kind of screws up the funds rank with Luna and Nosferatu, which would be my main qualms with Canas > Lucius. That and Lucius's C Staves, but let's see what we have first.

Each unit basically has 30k alloted to them, so Canas can rather easily afford Luna and Nosferatu. It's not like he needs it often. Funds is a huge joke. If you really want me to, I'll look for it later, or perhaps just argue it over. I might even prefer that, I don't think I let Canas appear as good as he really is in my previous argument.

[Colonel M]

I'll at least wait for the arguments. At the most I do agree that Canas and Lucius shouldn't have a tier difference.

If Canas can't use Luna and Nosferatu, Lucius can't use Restore and Barrier. Restore and Barrier are 200 and 150G per use. Luna and Nosferatu are 150 and 160G per use.

I'm not so hellbent on Barrier, but I hope you enjoy trying to wake up 4 turns later without Restore.

@Ether: Hm, Rath does contribute to a rank that is heavily needed, while Isadora kind of hampers it. Then again, Rath doesn't have much of a lead in combat and Isadora can help the other ranks. I question her durability to run far ahead and take on too many units (at base Isadora has 28 HP | 8 Def, which at about --/5 she has 31 HP | 8.8 Def). Con isn't a major issue thanks to her high Spd and a good growth behind it, but I might consider the need of a Body Ring costly since there are still other units that likely want it (Mage users appreciate lack of weight, Raven losing 6 AS from Steel Axe kind of sucks too). I guess I'd have to look at the 30K argument before I say anything about Isadora needing more expensive weapons to function well.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Colonel M

[HJ.]

I don't think WJC was saying don't use Restore, just saying that Lucius's special advantage is actually more expensive than Canas's special advantage, despite you only holding funds against Canas. Anyway, briefly:

-Canas exists on the enemy phase while Lucius doesn't since he's still building up a non-fail durability

-Lucius faces crit against a lot of enemies early on while Canas doesn't (this sorta ties in to above)

-Canas gains 4 AS on promotion and becomes a one-rounding machine

-Nosferatu gives Canas a major advantage for Tactics rank since healing himself and doing damage = a healer being able to kill an enemy on the player phase instead of healing Canas. Lucius has no answer to this

-Luna lets Canas kill magic enemies and some physical enemies with a HP/Res combo that Lucius can't stand up to. To name some VoD examples, Snipers, Falcoknights, all promoted magic enemies, POSSIBLY Paladins and Generals depending on supports+level

-Thanks to Luna, Canas is God in CoD thanks to h4x Res durability while not failing at offense like most magical units

What does Lucius have to answer this with? A C in staves which will come in handy in Genesis. Canas being >>> Lucius in CoD is already enough to counter this.

Edited February 14, 2010 by HJ.

[Life]

@Ether: Hm, Rath does contribute to a rank that is heavily needed, while Isadora kind of hampers it. Then again, Rath doesn't have much of a lead in combat and Isadora can help the other ranks. I question her durability to run far ahead and take on too many units (at base Isadora has 28 HP | 8 Def, which at about --/5 she has 31 HP | 8.8 Def). Con isn't a major issue thanks to her high Spd and a good growth behind it, but I might consider the need of a Body Ring costly since there are still other units that likely want it (Mage users appreciate lack of weight, Raven losing 6 AS from Steel Axe kind of sucks too). I guess I'd have to look at the 30K argument before I say anything about Isadora needing more expensive weapons to function well.

Here's the proper argument that brought on Ether's Rath/Isa comment.

Now here's a question. Rath > Isadora? I'm gonna quote some stuff from previous tier lists from GameFAQs, some of it is my drivel, mind you.

Here was Jaffar's case for Rath > Isadora.

Currently, Rath's placement is due to his contributions to the experience rank. Although he's stuck with a single weapon type, he's great at countering the numerous Wyvern Riders that exist in the chapters following 22, and can easily contribute some chip damage as well. Beyond the experience rank, however, we dismiss him as a lackluster unit. Hence his placement at the bottom of Lower-Mid.

However, what if instead of keeping him as an experience-boosting unit, we tried to make him a legitimate combat unit? Obviously, his base class prevents him from achieving this, as he'll only be active for ~30% of the total combat phase. It's not too unreasonable, however, to assume that he can reach level 10 by the end of LHM: he's a fantastic boss killer because of his high base level, and can kill quite a few enemies without any risk to your Lyn Mode experience rank. If we agree that a level 10 Rath is feasible, then his best course of action is to promote immediately upon recruitment. His base stats at that point:

Rath 10/1

HP: 30

Str: 12

Skill: 11

Speed: 13

Luck: 6

Def: 10

Res: 6

Con: 8

Let's compare this with Isadora, who comes in the same chapter:

Isadora --/1

HP: 28

Str: 13

Skill: 12

Speed: 16

Def: 8

Res: 6

Con: 6

Rath wins defensively, and while Isadora has better speed and strength, her low Con puts this category up in the air, since Rath can afford to wield heavier weapons without significant AS loss. Five levels later...

Rath 10/5

HP: 34

Str: 14

Skill: 13

Speed: 15

Luck: 7

Def: 11

Res: 7

Con: 8

Isadora --/5

HP: 31

Str: 14

Skill: 13

Speed: 18

Def: 9

Res: 7

Con: 6

Rath is still winning defensively, but now the speed gap has effectively become +1 for Isadora due to her loss in Con, and the strength gap has been filled. Finally, five more levels down the road..

Rath 10/10

HP: 38

Str: 17

Skill: 15

Speed: 18

Luck: 9

Def: 11

Res: 8

Con: 8

Isadora --/10

HP: 35

Str: 16

Skill: 15

Speed: 20

Def: 10

Res: 8

Con: 6

There is no longer a notable speed gap, and Rath is winning everywhere else. Clearly, Rath is statistically superior late-game.

Now, let's talk long-range capabilities. One could argue that Rath's ability to use both bows and swords is negated by Isadora's access to Hand Axes and Javelins. However, Hand Axes weigh Isadora down for -6AS, and Javelins for -5AS; if Isadora chooses to wield these weapons, at base levels Rath is winning speed by either +3 or +2. Rath, by contrast, can wield Killer Bows with no penalty and Steel Bows for just -1AS. Clearly, Rath has the advantage long-range. Moreover, Rath has the unique ability to shoot down Wyverns with ease, which proves very useful during the mid-late/late game. To be fair, Isadora does have access to the entire weapon triangle. However, she's quite limited in what she can equip, as even base level Axes and Lances weigh her down heavily. Her main advantage over Rath early on is her speed, but she'll have to equip things like Iron Swords to sustain the lead.

While the above analysis is certainly up for interpretation, I'd say that Rath comes out on top. The question, then, is whether or not he's 10K better than Isadora. That's definitely up in the air, and I welcome any challengers to defend Isadora for this reason, but I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that he's superior to Rebecca.

Which seems absolutely reasonable because I personally have no idea why Rath > Isadora without a promotion.

And the rebuttal.

I like your argument but I can't agree with Rath being better than Isadora. He should move above Rebecca, though. The fact that Rebecca is mono-bows while Rath gains swords on promotion is a plus for him.

1. He comes at level 7 in Lyn's playthrough. It's pretty hard to gain 3 levels for him when your other units are so much weaker and need the EXP over him. Namely Lyn (to live, obviously), Kent, Sain, Dorcas, Erk, Lucius, Matthew... The list is just way too long. I can't see Rath achieving 3 levels without severly cutting off one of these units' growth.

2. Rath gains E level swords on promotion. So he has to tote around an Iron Sword as his true form of defense. We're looking at 17 Atk before the Def cut applies. And to get his WExp up, he needs to use it 30 times. But the problem is, he can't generate offense with anything aside from his bows. So it's going to take him a long time (longer than usual) to actually achieve that D rank in swords. And IMO he needs that D rank because his ideal sword is the Steel Sword (-2 loss of AS but he can actually generate offense with it, everything else is too specialized for him). I can imagine him wielding a Killing Edge as his final sword but that requires a C rank in swords... Yeah, that might take a while.

3. Isadora isn't hampered by the WExp requiredments that tie Rath down. While Rath can do "chip damage" with his bows, he barely does anything with swords. Isadora starts with an A in swords and B in lances. Yeah she's got that nasty habit of AS loss but she's doing more damage and doubles almost everything that Rath does while holding an Iron Sword. I would love to say that she's holding a Silver Sword when attacking but I don't know if that will fly by you guys. So rather, she uses a Steel which brings up a -4 penalty to AS. But she's already got 21 Atk and 12 AS while Rath has 17 Atk, 13 AS and no AS penalty, unlike Isadora. If Isadora's toting a Silver Sword (thanks to her A rank in swords), the balance shifts heavily in her favour with 26 Atk and 14 AS. Rath doesn't stand a chance of measuring up to Isadora's 1 range damage output until he gets a shiny C in swords.

How does Rath beat Isadora without promoting [when he stands a better chance of beating her after he's gotten an Orion's Bolt and still can't]?

Edited February 14, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Colonel M]

I don't think WJC was saying don't use Restore, just saying that Lucius's special advantage is actually more expensive than Canas's special advantage, despite you only holding funds against Canas.

I'm not exactly penalizing Canas that much for Luna and Nosferatu, it's a matter of a something that hurts him because he's a little more reliant on the latter for an Enemy Phase. Lucius using Restore may be expensive, but it has the positives of alleviating a unit from Sleep, which is important to continue charging forward. I also retract my statement with Barrier. Pure Water costs 300G per use and lasts for 3 times. Barrier has 5x the amount for less cost.

[CATS]

I'm not so hellbent on Barrier, but I hope you enjoy trying to wake up 4 turns later without Restore.

This is an argument that C Staves is more useful than Luna or Nosferatu. It doesn't change the fact that it's at least as expensive.

Here's what I've posted about Canas in the last topic.

---

First off, if anything Canas will have a small level lead over Lucius. Lucius effectively doesn't join until Ch 18; he won't get to do anything at all in Ch 17 and he's likely not being taken to 17x due to the fact that you have only 6 deployment slots there (whereas Canas can be recruited on turn 1 in that chapter).

Nosferatu is acquired in Ch 20. Let's look at Ch 22.

15 Canas: 13.15 Mag, 10.45 Spd----25.9 Hp, 6.75 Def

15 Lucius C Raven: high Mag, too much Spd----23.6 Hp, 3.2 Def

Now, Nosferatu is really gay and has 14 Wt, reducing Canas to a measly 3-4 Spd. So he's getting doubled, rite? The sad thing is, he's often not. AS on Axereaver wyverns ranges from 6-8--and since these are Axereaver wyverns, whereas usually they have Steel or Javelin, Canas isn't getting doubled at all in almost any other chapter that has them (cept maybe 26 cause the ones in that chap are gay and use Iron alot, but that won't 2HKO Canas). Atk is mostly 21-22, so Canas takes 14-15 damage, but his 23 Atk hitting their crappy Res reclaims all of that in one shot. If he's not getting doubled, as is entirely possible, he's fine.

Swordreaver fighters only have 5-6 AS. fail. Atk is similar to wyverns, so Canas tanks these fellows as well.

Nomads double him--but with 17-18 Atk. He can not only take two hits from them, but do the same damage to them in one of his hits as they do to him in two.

Chapter has plenty of knights. lol. Tanking again.

Lancereaver cavs with 7-9 AS and 17-19 Atk. Meh. He might be in trouble if they manage to both double and get 19 Atk.

Lucius on the other hand? All these Reaver enemies have 8-9 crit, and Lucius has 6 CEV. Massive enemy phase fail. Canas has 8.75 Lck.

Don't treat Luna like it's useless either.

L8 CoD Valkyrie: 33 Hp, 19 AS, 20 Res

20/8 Canas: 18.55 Mag, 17.65 Spd

20/8 Lucius B Raven: 24.4 Mag, 19.6 Spd

Canas + Luna: 19-20 damage, 2HKO, 33% Crit

Lucius + Divine: 11 damage, 3HKO, 29% Crit

---

FE7 Funds rank is "nightmarish?" News to me. Likewise lol @ citing Combat rank. If you want to start being a nazi about Funds rank, then I'll be happy to argue Guy down to upper mid at least. He's not nearly as shiny when you take away all those expensive killing edges and lancereavers.

Not to mention that only 20 uses of shaky accuracy and speed killing weight does not make you invincible, especially since there's only 2, one coming at damn near the end of the game.

Accuracy can be mitigated fairly easily. FE7 enemies have no Avo. If you're worried about missing then just save it until Canas promotes and utilize it then. Post-promo he should have no hit issues with his Skl built up and +5 from S rank in Dark. Alternatively you could hand him a secret book, I can't think of anyone else who would really want one. The rly slow enemies are still completely safe to use it against even pretty early on. Knights with 4 Avo? lol. He has over 99% chance to hit those.

20 uses indeed, and if utilized properly, it's the equivalent of a Prf Ninis's Grace. I'm gonna say that's still pretty significant even if its uses are limited. If its uses weren't limited then I might go and argue Canas > Erk outright. As for getting more copies, you can get a second copy in Genesis, though admittedly it's probably not much if any better to get that instead of the multiple silvers that you can get instead (unless you care about Funds rank in which case it's worth noting that those high level magic tomes are worth more than silvers). It also seems like it would be a pretty good candidate for Hammerne. Can't think of much else that's really worth charges from that staff, since almost everything else you'd care about is buyable by the time it comes along. Maybe warp.

Steel lance paladins I would expect to have around 10 AS, yes. And generals do not have shitty Res. This one I'm looking at in PFoD has 44 Hp and 11 Res.

20/3 Erk w/ +1 Atk support and Elfire: double 14's

20/3 Canas w/ Luna: double 16's

Meh. It's more notable against the magic enemies. Canas has slightly more crit but it's not anything to care about. Erk's full crit Priscilla support takes away most of the crit lead Canas would otherwise have from Luna. Anyways, like I said, more significant against the magic enemies. Like this bastard from Genesis.

L5 Druid: 32 Hp, 16 Res

17 Canas w/ Luna: 14 damage

17 Erk w/ Thundah: 2 damage

lol, fail

Plus, CoD valks. Already cited those.

---

Canas can't even touch Lucius. Lucius has better speed, mag, res,skill,wep type, supports and when promoted starts with C in staves> Hp, def and luck.

Better Spd, yes. He has better offense, pre-promotion at least. In exchange Canas wins durability, and the two are pretty similar overall as caster units.

Better Mag? Canas's tomes have significantly more Mt and he 2HKOs anyways against almost any unpromoted physical enemy. Against magic enemies Canas wins because of Luna. Lucius might be able to do slightly more damage to promoted physical enemies, not sure, but if so it won't be enough to care about.

Better Skl? Canas has no problems hitting. Weighed down enemies with 0 Lck. 15 Canas + Flux has 108 hit. An enemy needs 8 AS to reduce him below a 99% chance to hit. 11 AS to reduce him below a 96% chance to hit. 16 AS to reduce him below a 90% chance to hit. By the time enemies with significantly more than 11 AS exist, Canas's hit also went up alot because he's grown in levels, promoted and S Ranked in Dark for +5 hit. Canas having enough Lck to avoid enemy critrates is more significant than this.

Weapon type? No, Canas wins that. His tomes have more Mt in a game where hit is a joke, and Luna and Nosferatu are both useful as I've posted already. I'll re-quote the posts if someone wants me to.

Supports and staff rank, sure. In exchange Canas gets the aforementioned Luna and Nosferatu making him better in certain situations (similar to how Lucius's higher staff rank makes him more useful in particular situations).

I don't see Lucius being significantly better. Canas can match each one of his advantages that matter.

Plus, Lucius has a fairly likely (and useful) Raven support, while Canas has... no feasible supports, really. Canas's concrete durability is barely better than Lucy's, but they're both terrible, so Lucius's pretty big avoid lead puts him ahead. Canas just gets stomped on when it comes to offense, with the exception on Luna'ing some lategame bosses, assuming you used him in the first place. I'm sure I (or someone else) could go into more detail if necessary.

Lucius's pretty big Avo lead is canceled by the fact that he has to worry about critrates all the way up to Ch 22. lol, 2 base Lck.

---

I'm not really saying Canas > Lucius although I wouldn't disagree with it. I think a tier gap between them is clearly not justified.

[Colonel M]

I'm going to close the gap for now.

@LA: The text inside the spoilers didn't show up.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Colonel M

[Life]

I'm going to close the gap for now.

@LA: The text inside the spoilers didn't show up.

I know. I fixed it now.

Also, this coming as a resident of GameFAQs, please let us (those who primarily argue on GFAQs) run our own topics on the tier list. If we make a change, I (or someone else) will link you to where the change was made and why. We'll do the same for changes from SF (like Canas vs. Lucius). Thanks matey. Hope you understand.

[Colonel M]

If Jaffar7 wants to pick it up in GFAQs, I probably wouldn't object that much at him. I just wish it was brought here (or FEG) because the lack of editing the OP is terrible when running the list.

[Life]

If Jaffar7 wants to pick it up in GFAQs, I probably wouldn't object that much at him. I just wish it was brought here (or FEG) because the lack of editing the OP is terrible when running the list.

Jaffar is... god knows where he is. And yeah, I know that the editing here is better (I'm used to it thanks to my actual home site which has 0 to do with Fire Emblem) but GameFAQs still works well.

Two tier list topics are going to confuse the hell out of people, not to mention that nobody on GFaqs knows who you are (save those who actually post here). I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I'm just stating that GFAQs regulars (me, xbombr, WoMC) have more of a shot of convincing newer GFAQs debaters of stuff than you do because you post more here. Would you mind locking up your topic there so that we only have one going there?

Edited February 14, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Colonel M]

Jaffar is... god knows where he is. And yeah, I know that the editing here is better (I'm used to it thanks to my actual home site which has 0 to do with Fire Emblem) but GameFAQs still works well.

Two tier list topics are going to confuse the hell out of people, not to mention that nobody on GFaqs knows who you are (save those who actually post here). I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I'm just stating that GFAQs regulars (me, xbombr, WoMC) have more of a shot of convincing newer GFAQs debaters of stuff than you do because you post more here. Would you mind locking up your topic so that we only have one going there?

Yeah, that's fine. I'll try to lock the topic when 20 minutes is up.

[HJ.]

Well I'm too lazy to sign up on gamefaqs

back to debaeting on feff I guess

[Tangerine]

You either argue Lucius down or you argue Canas up, you can't just skip every unit in between if Canas matches up well to Lucius. Honestly, I don't know where this line of thought came up.

-Canas exists on the enemy phase while Lucius doesn't since he's still building up a non-fail durability

-Lucius faces crit against a lot of enemies early on while Canas doesn't (this sorta ties in to above)

-Canas gains 4 AS on promotion and becomes a one-rounding machine

-Nosferatu gives Canas a major advantage for Tactics rank since healing himself and doing damage = a healer being able to kill an enemy on the player phase instead of healing Canas. Lucius has no answer to this

-Thanks to Luna, Canas is God in CoD thanks to h4x Res durability while not failing at offense like most magical units

1. Lucius exists on the enemy phase too, he isn't getting killed in one hit. It's not like they're in the middle of 4 enemies every turn.

2. Lucius faces crit only when being attacked by an enemy and even then it's too low to matter.

3. One-rounding machine? Yeah, no.

4. Oh yeah, definitely. 2 rounding enemies = helping Tactics rank.

5. Uh, no he isn't. Two rounding enemies does not make you god.

-Luna lets Canas kill magic enemies and some physical enemies with a HP/Res combo that Lucius can't stand up to. To name some VoD examples, Snipers, Falcoknights, all promoted magic enemies, POSSIBLY Paladins and Generals depending on supports+level

This one I'll laugh at individually. Here's what the important enemies look like in VoD.

12 AS Silver Bow Snipers

11 AS Killer Lance Wyvern Riders

14 AS Silver Lance Wyvern Lords

12 AS Longsword/Silver Lance Paladins

18 AS Silver Sword Heroes

16 AS Silver Axe Heroes

22 AS Wo Dao Swordmasters

13 AS Silver Axe/Killer Bow Warriors

13 AS Silver Sword Paladins

14 AS Elfire Valks

15 AS Steel Sword/ Steel Bow Nomad Troops

Wait a second..is Canas not one rounding ANY of them? Yeah, you're right; he can't even double them with Luna at a level your characters are unlikely to be at. Far more realistic levels would be 20/7 for your average unit at this point (IE ones without EXP boosts like Bishops/Assassins/Valkyries) thanks to rotation. Anyway, Lucius at 20/7 has 19 AS and 7 con, Canas has 17 AS and 8 con.

Lucius doubles:

12 AS Silver Bow Snipers (Kills)

11 AS Killer Lance Wyvern Riders (Kills)

14 AS Silver Lance Wyvern Lords (Kills)

12 AS Longsword/Silver Lance Paladins (Kills)

13 AS Silver Axe/Killer Bow Warriors (Kills)

13 AS Silver Sword Paladins (Kills)

14 AS Elfire Valks (Two-round)

15 AS Steel Sword/ Steel Bow Nomad Troops (Must use Lightning; Kill)

Lucius does not double:

18 AS Silver Sword Hero

16 AS Silver Axe Hero

22 AS Wo Dao Swordmasters

Canas doubles (With Flux only):

12 AS Silver Bow Snipers (Kill)

11 AS Killer Lance Wyvern Riders (Kill)

12 AS Longsword/Silver Lance Paladins (Kill)

13 AS Silver Axe/Killer Bow Warriors (Cannot kill ones that get too much HP)

13 AS Silver Sword Paladins (Kill)

Canas does not double:

14 AS Silver Lance Wyvern Lords

18 AS Silver Sword Hero

16 AS Silver Axe Hero

22 AS Wo Dao Swordmasters

14 AS Elfire Valks

15 AS Steel Sword/ Steel Bow Nomad Troops

Canas gets doubled by:

22 AS Wo Dao Swordmasters

Keeping in mind that Canas can't one round anything using Luna without a crit regardless, he is not one rounding as many enemies as Lucius is because of it. Canas has 25 atk with Flux, Lucius has 29 with Shine and 27 with Lightning against the Nomads. VoD is hardly a win for him.

I'm fine with Colonel M making the topic on GameFAQs. Just let Jaffar re-make it when he gets back.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[HJ.]

Heroes don't even have Silver Swords in VoD. v_v

Also, is this all off the top of your head or something? Because I see glaring inconsistencies with the written samples I have from VoD, and most of them completely kill your arguments.

Edited February 14, 2010 by HJ.

[Tangerine]

Really? Maybe that's a CoD Hero then. Not sure where that Hero came from if there's none in VoD.

[CATS]

You either argue Lucius down or you argue Canas up, you can't just skip every unit in between if Canas matches up well to Lucius. Honestly, I don't know where this line of thought came up.

The tier list is linear and leaves no room for mixed placements like A > B and B > C but C > A or something like that, so what need is there of arguing Canas against a bunch of other units if it can be made clear that he is roughly equivalent to Lucius? If A = B and B > C, does it not follow A > C also?

1. Lucius exists on the enemy phase too, he isn't getting killed in one hit. It's not like they're in the middle of 4 enemies every turn.

2. Lucius faces crit only when being attacked by an enemy and even then it's too low to matter.

Huh? You seemed to contradict yourself here.

Too low to matter? Are you kidding? If it goes off you instantly fail survival and cannot S rank. Ofcourse durability is irrelevant if you think it's totally okay to put your units in a situation where they face chance of death. brb, gonna go type a Guy > Oswin argument

3. One-rounding machine? Yeah, no.

He said after promotion. Canas is likely one-rounding more than Lucius is after promotion. Their performance against those crappy unpromoted enemies is similar as both will one-round those and Canas is better at one-rounding magic enemies.

[Tangerine]

The tier list is linear and leaves no room for mixed placements like A > B and B > C but C > A or something like that, so what need is there of arguing Canas against a bunch of other units if it can be made clear that he is roughly equivalent to Lucius? If A = B and B > C, does it not follow A > C also?

Um, no? If Canas matches up well with Lucius but loses to units below him, maybe LUCIUS needs to be re-evaluated and not Canas. This line of thought is a very flawed one and admittedly it's part of the reason even our tier list needs fixing.

Huh? You seemed to contradict yourself here.

I didn't contradict myself, I said there's only one instance where Lucius has a chance to get crit. It's not like he's a melee unit who would be in serious trouble if he couldn't avoid it at all.

Too low to matter? Are you kidding? If it goes off you instantly fail survival and cannot S rank. Ofcourse durability is irrelevant if you think it's totally okay to put your units in a situation where they face chance of death. brb, gonna go type a Guy > Oswin argument

It is too low to matter. You can't use a tiny crit chance as a major point against a unit, that's stupid. It's a minor point, not one worth making a big deal out of.

[Colonel M]

Okay, then you re-evaluate both of them compared to a unit within either tier. I moved Canas up becasue I don't particularly agree with Lucius down.

[Tangerine]

I don't have the time for any big comparison, but off the top of my head I'm definitely seeing Harken > Lucius for sure. I think upper-mid in general might need re-arranging because I can't see Lucius or Canas being better than Legault, but I'm not sure if Lucius is worse than Dorcas/Geitz either. Considering the net system is in use for this list, Dorcas and Geitz are actually pretty great though. It'd take more than just an overview to decide.

Also, glad to see ranks finally getting the attention they deserve here! Look how close the ranked tier list is in activity to the efficiency one! Never thought I'd see that :o.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[CATS]

Um, no? If Canas matches up well with Lucius but loses to units below him, maybe LUCIUS needs to be re-evaluated and not Canas. This line of thought is a very flawed one and admittedly it's part of the reason even our tier list needs fixing.

Yes, it is possible that Lucius needs to be moved down instead. However, the fact that there are other units between them still has no relevance to Canas vs Lucius. If A = B and A < C, then it also follows that B < C, correct? You can either move A and B up or down relative to other units, but either way you haven't changed the fact that they are roughly equal and should stay together.

It is too low to matter. You can't use a tiny crit chance as a major point against a unit, that's stupid. It's a minor point, not one worth making a big deal out of.

It's a chance of death. If a slim lance peg with 9 crit has 74% hit and 6% crit on Lucius, then he faces about a 5% chance to get OHKO'd. If this happens you cannot S rank. If you allow this situation to occur 3 times you're already at roughly a 15% chance of failing your S rank attempt completely. How does this not matter? Isn't the whole point of durability to be able to face more enemies without having a chance of death?