FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

Marcus > Oswin.

The earlygame is a massacre. Oswin can't even say "BUT EXPERIENCE RANK!" over Marcus like everyone else can. Well, he can, but to lower degree. Oswin starts off at 9/0 to Marcus's 20/1, but Hector is 4/0, Eliwood is 1/0, Lowen is 2/0, etc. Oswin isn't exactly good for the Experience rank either. Anyways, Experience is literally all Oswin has over Marcus in the earlygame. In terms of combat and everything else, Marcus slaughters him.

Marcus: 20/1 Paladin

HP: 31

Str: 15

Skl: 15

Spd: 11

Lck: 8

Def: 10

Res: 8

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

Oswin: 9/0 Knight

HP: 28

Str: 13

Skl: 9

Spd: 5

Lck: 3

Def: 13

Res: 3

Mov: 4

Lances

Simply looking at their stats tells a sad tale for our poor Oswin. Marcus has double his mobility, significantly more offensive power, isn't locked to WTDA a lot, and is even more durable.

Oswin must be 14/0 to match Marcus's Str, but he'll still be down in Atk due Marcus having axes and more WT control. Marcus always rapes him in Skl/Hit in general. Oswin will not have Marcus's base Spd until he promotes and he never becomes faster during the game. Despite Oswin's Def, Marcus is more durable during the earlygame due to WT control and Evd. It's also worth noting that Marcus can ignore magic users for quite some time, even in the Dragons Gate.

Marcus is so much better than Oswin at Tactics, the hardest rank, it's not even funny. Marcus shaves turns off chapters in the earlygame that other units can't. Those turns could be translated into a few turns of arena and support abuse later or make up for mistakes and unlucky instances. Oswin, however, has half of Marcus's mobility for the whole game, meaning he's always progressing much more slowly all the time. For instance, Chapter 13 has a 12 turn requirement to maintain a perfect score in Tactics, but Marcus can shave off 2-3 turns easily while other units can't. Oswin has 4 Mov and can barely even reach the boss before 12 turns are up. Marcus is the only character that can safely reach the village in 13x or safely reach and defeat Puzon for his big boss EXP gain. Chapter 14 has a 10 turn requirement. The rain destroys everyone's mobility, but Marcus can charge out early to get to Priscilla's village and clear out a bunch of enemies, shaving off turns. Chapter 16 has to be finished in 7 turns, and Oswin can't even halfway reach the boss in that amount of turns due to the forests and enemies slowing him down. Marcus can charge through it all. Chapter 17 isn't even fair; Oswin can clear out some enemies in the start and then has to stand back forever since Marcus and everyone else without failure Mov is busy getting Raven and Priscilla, stopping the thieves, and charging through the chapter in order to meet the 18 turn requirement. Chapter 17x has a 10 turn requirement. That's right, you have to clear out the strong enemies and Damian's group and reach Fargus in 10 turns. What other unit is capable of this? Marcus shaving off turns earlier on makes up for how gay that requirement is, or he can just rape the chapter to make it possible. Either way, Marcus is w1n and Oswin is not. In Chapter 18, Marcus can run from one side of the ship to the other in order to do whatever, and he just lol's at the Shamans, Pegs, and other shit he kills in one hit that can't do anything back to him. Marcus can help you finish that chapter well before the turn count ends, and since the turn requirement is 11, that's awesome. Chapter 19 is 10 turns, and Oswin isn't going anywhere due to those forests, so lol @ him again. Marcus gets to charge forward without a chance of dying and get the Torch staff from that thief. Chapter 19x has a 10 turn requirement and you need to kill Kishuna and Aion and seize before that if you want 19xx and to not fail in Tactics. Oswin's slow self can't even reach Kishuna, or even Aion in most cases, in 10 turns. Marcus rapes Kishuna compared to how badly everyone else does against him. 19xx is another massacre in Marcus's favor due to stopping the thieves and finishing that chapter ASAP since it's a 0 turn one. You want to blast through that bitch and get some awesome items and a free 100 EXP from killing a very high level Druid and get the fuck out because that chapter is the worst ever for Tactics. Chapter 20 has a 16 turn requirement, but you want to visit the secret shops, and Marcus makes that possible while other units can't. He's a downright detriment when we're trying to meet such crazy requirements. Oswin can't reach Eubans in 11 turns or even help a lot with that, but Marcus can, and he can just laugh at those magic users with his 10+ Res at the time and supports giving him Evd.

If Oswin promotes first, nice and early at say...The Pirate Ship, he's stopping Kent, Sain, and Lowen from being able to promote all the way until Chapter 22. After that, the next opportunity is Chapter 24. Marcus does no such thing. He comes promoted. He saves you 10,000 Gold right off the bat and doesn't hinder some other unit's promotion ever.

In terms of supports, Marcus can build some easy ones with Eliwood and Lowen that are awesome defensively. Oswin can slowly build one with Dorcas and Hector and that's about it. Maybe Matthew? His A with Lowen takes 75 turns and Oswin's fastest support gets a B in about that time. Going by the strict turn requirements, Oswin's supports aren't building too well, but Lowen keeps up with Marcus and it builds quickly.

How does Oswin ever make up for this insane rape? He better somehow do a lot later on...

Let's go to around when Pent joins or shortly before/after depending on various factors.

Marcus: 20/10 Paladin

HP: 36.85

Str: 17.7

Skl: 19.5

Spd: 13.25

Lck: 10.7

Def: 11.35

Res: 11.15

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Lowen/B Eliwood: +2 Atk, +20 Hit, +7 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

Oswin: 20/5 General

HP: 45.5

Str: 21.0

Skl: 15.5

Spd: 12.5

Lck: 8.25

Def: 23.25

Res: 10.5

Mov: 5

Lances, Axes

B Hector/B Dorcas: +3 Atk, +5 Hit, +10 Crit, +20 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +15 Crit Evd

Offense

Atk Spd: Marcus is right on the cusp of doubling iron lance Wyverns. They have 9-10 Spd. He gets the 9 Spd ones and barely misses the 10 Spd ones. Giving him a Speedwing, which allows him to maintain top tier offense for a long time and puts up at or nearly at the Spd needed to double almost everything in Victory or Death later, allows him to cleanly double everything in Unfulfilled Heart. Oswin with a Speedwing gets similar benefits, but he already ate a promotional item and and can't get to the enemies nearly as well as Marcus can. Both are ass in this area, but Marcus is slightly better.

Atk: Oswin has a 1.5 lead. This is actually more meaningless than Marcus's slight win in Atk Spd. Marcus has access to swords and has an A in axes at this point. Will Oswin have an A in axes? Not likely. A B at most, probably. Marcus can bust out a silver axe to cancel out the lead. Oswin's bonuses from Hector don't exist very much, especially in Chapter 26. Does Oswin's Atk lead make him do any better at all? Nope. Marcus already one-shots the random crappy Myrm with a Silver Lance and rapes anything else unpromoted that isn't a Wyvern. He has access to almost any weapon in the game. A 32 HP/11 Def Wyvern is dropped to 25 HP when Oswin hits it with a steel axe. He doesn't double even the 9 Spd ones. Marcus doubles the 9 Spd ones with a Killer Axe or Silver Lance and easily kills them. If it has 10 Spd and Marcus doesn't double, he does the same damage as Oswin due to being able to use a silver axe. Both need a critical, and Marcus has more of that since he gets his +7 from Lowen and has more Skl while Oswin only gets his +5 from Dorcas and has less Skl.

Hit: Massacre in Marcus's favor. Oswin has Marcus's 20/1 overall accuracy right now, lol. Oswin actually stands a chance of missing things, especially if he has WTDA. Marcus can have WTDA and not care if his supporters are there. Oswin has a very nice chance of missing if he faces WTDA. Oswin with an iron axe has ~75 Hit on Mercs/Myrms even with his supports. Marcus in the same situation maintains 100 Hit. With WTDA against a faster enemy when he's using the least accurate weapon type, Marcus has 100 Hit. Wow.

Defense: Both are invincible. Yes, even Marcus. Oswin's durability wins hardly matter. Marcus faces 20.8 Hit against an iron lance Wyvern with 9 Skl. Javelin ones have 5.8 (7.8 with hand axe). If it has 13 Str, it does a mere 4.65 Dmg to Marcus's 36.85 HP. It would take far more than the amount on any map to attack him in one turn for him to have a real chance of dying. Oswin's one and only point over Marcus is being invincible, but being able to take infinite enemies vs 100 doesn't matter when 100 never attack you at once. Marcus can somehow be so unlucky that 7 of those Wyverns hit him, and he's still alive. That's right, if Marcus gets hit 7 times by ~8% chances, he's still alive anyways. Oswin's invincibility means little if Marcus is surviving anyways. Thankfully, Marcus has more than one good thing, unlike Oswin. Against magic users, Marcus wins in both Evd and Res. ~1 Res + ~9 Evd > ~9 HP. And that's if Hector's 20/0 low mobility self is following Oswin around and Dorcas is in play, and Dorcas's use is questionable while Lowen and Eliwood are awesome and their use is not questionable at all.

So, Oswin is not even winning the midgame or the start of the lategame at all. Oswin would need to not only beat Marcus later, but beat him by a lot in order to make up for how soundly Marcus has been thrashing him everywhere but Experience.

Battle Before Dawn is Oswin's worst chapter ever possibly. Marcus and Lowen and a promoted Eliwood get to be BAMFs and charge forward to save Jaffar's garbage azz or recruit Nino and get her over to him safely. They can just ignore Ursula's Bolting and whatever else they're giving each other crazy Evd and Lowen's invincible anyways. Oswin gets to show up to peck off a few enemies at best or stay back and beat up crappy reinforcements that a base level Raven can probably kill.

What do they look like around Victory or Death, Oswin's best chance to show he's better than Marcus? There are lots of promoted enemies roaming around compared to earlier on, enemy density shot up, Marcus's mobility lets him reach enemies easily, and Marcus's EXP gains stopped being horrible, so...

Marcus: 20/17 Paladin

HP: 41.4

Str: 19.8

Skl: 23.0

Spd: 15.0

Lck: 12.8

Def: 12.4

Res: 13.6

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Lowen/B Eliwood: +2 Atk, +20 Hit, +7 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

Oswin: 20/14 General

HP: 53.6

Str: 24.6

Skl: 18.2

Spd: 15.2

Lck: 11.4

Def: 28.2

Res: 13.2

Mov: 5

B Hector/A Dorcas: +4 Atk, +7 Hit, +12 Crit, +25 Evd, +3 Def/Res, +17 Crit Evd

ENEMY LV HP ST SK SP LC DE RE MV CN WEAPONS
LIMSTELLA 20 70 26 22 19 00 21 25 06 04 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
KNIGHT 16 32 13 08 03 00 15 04 04 13 STEEL LANCE
GENERAL 08 43 17 11 07 00 21 12 05 15 SILVER LANCE
SNIPER 08 39 16 15 12 00 10 09 06 08 SILVER BOW (+LONGBOW)
DRUID 08 32 23 12 13 00 08 17 06 08 FENRIR, NOSFERATU / NOSFERATU
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 KILLER LANCE / HORSESLAYER / AXEREAVER
WYVERN LORD 08 47 21 14 14 00 17 07 08 11 SILVER LANCE / STEEL LANCE
PALADIN 06 43 16 13 12 00 12 09 08 11 STEEL LANCE / LONGSWORD / SILVER LANCE
HERO 08 44 15 18 17 00 15 09 06 10 SILVER AXE (+ LIGHT BRAND) / SILVER SWORD, HAND AXE
HERO 20 52 18 21 19 00 17 11 06 10 SILVER AXE, LIGHT BRAND
SWORDMASTER 20 46 18 23 22 00 12 11 06 09 WO DAO
WARRIOR 08 51 21 14 13 00 10 06 06 13 SILVER AXE / DEVIL AXE, KILLER BOW
BRIGAND 16 35 15 07 09 00 06 03 05 12 STEEL AXE
SAGE 10 34 19 14 13 00 09 18 06 07 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
BISHOP 08 34 15 13 11 00 07 20 06 07 AURA, PURGE / AURA, FORTITY, BERSERK
PALADIN 08 44 16 13 13 00 12 10 08 11 SILVER SWORD
VALKYRIE 08 32 15 12 18 00 08 20 08 06 ELFIRE, PHYSIC
MAGE 16 27 12 10 10 00 05 09 05 06 ELFIRE
SAGE 06 32 17 13 13 00 09 16 06 07 ELFIRE, BOLTING
MONK 20 30 08 09 10 00 04 14 05 06 LIGHTNING
SHAMAN 16 26 12 08 08 00 05 10 05 07 NOSFERATU
NOMAD TROOP 06 37 16 15 17 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD
MAJOR REINFORCEMENTS:
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 STEEL LANCE
CAVALIER 16 34 12 10 11 00 09 03 07 09 STEEL LANCE
FALCOKNIGHT 10 38 16 17 17 00 09 14 08 06 STEEL LANCE
NOMAD TROOP 08 38 16 15 18 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD

Both take out the garbage (unpromoted enemies). Anyone can. So, Oswin's big Atk lead doesn't matter here. They have the same Atk Spd. Even with a Speedwing, they miss Wyvern Lords. Both are doubled by one enemy on the map that Marcus has no reason going near since he should move to the northwest or southeast over going through forests. Marcus and Oswin both fail to double Nomadic Troopers, Heroes, Wyvern Lords, and Silver Lance/Longsword Paladins. Oswin with all of his supports has a base Crit lead of ~3. And that's about all he can say in terms of offense since his Atk lead doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Doing 7 more Dmg to a Wyvern Lord won't make it any easier for someone else to march up to it and kill it since you should be using a bow or magic user to wreck these things. Anyways, Oswin has wins on enemies they both can't double.

Marcus is no longer as durable as he used to be and Oswin is invincible. Or is that really the case for Marcus? Well, the silver lance Wyvern Lord and steel lance Falco Knights have the same Hit as the iron lance one previously, which was very little, and it's 0-1 if Marcus is in a forest. Steel Lance/Javelin Wyverns? Not a threat at all. They lolmiss all day long. So do the Shamans and Cavaliers. A Valkyrie has ~41 Hit and does ~8 Dmg. Not very scary at all. Basically, Marcus stands no significant chance of dying.

Earlygame: Marcus wrecks him.

Midgame: Marcus wrecks him.

Lategame: Oswin ties him and then wins towards the very end.

And that pretty much only talks about combat performance and Tactics. Marcus's other benefits, like not needing a promotional item, not screwing over another unit, shaving turns off early on, performing tasks he's best suited for above all others, etc. easily put him ahead. In fact, Marcus shaving off like 10 turns through the earlygame lets you use the arena 10 times in Chapter 24 to make up for any Experience rank rape while making your army stronger. Giving Geitz like 4-5 free levels is awesome.

I see a tier gap between Marcus and Oswin in Marcus's favor.

[CATS]

What was the outcome of the argument between you and Bal? I only skimmed it, and he seemed like the only one to really oppose you.

[Tangerine]

Yes, it is possible that Lucius needs to be moved down instead. However, the fact that there are other units between them still has no relevance to Canas vs Lucius. If A = B and A < C, then it also follows that B < C, correct? You can either move A and B up or down relative to other units, but either way you haven't changed the fact that they are roughly equal and should stay together.

It doesn't matter in Canas vs Lucius, but it DOES matter when it comes to tiering them. That's why you can't just move Canas up to where Lucius is, you have to see how well he does against units below Lucius first. If he's good enough to move up to Lucius, that's where he should be. If he isn't as good, Lucius needs to move down to him.

It's a chance of death. If a slim lance peg with 9 crit has 74% hit and 6% crit on Lucius, then he faces about a 5% chance to get OHKO'd. If this happens you cannot S rank. If you allow this situation to occur 3 times you're already at roughly a 15% chance of failing your S rank attempt completely. How does this not matter? Isn't the whole point of durability to be able to face more enemies without having a chance of death?

Slim Lance gives a crit bonus; most units do not have crit bonuses, so it's more like 1-2%. Lucius could also just kill that Peg on the player phase anyway.

[Inui]

What was the outcome of the argument between you and Bal? I only skimmed it, and he seemed like the only one to really oppose you.

I'm assuming I won because I'm awesome.

[dondon151]

20/17 Marcus in ranked.

Yeah, no. Same goes for 20/14 Oswin.

[Colonel M]

Marcus > Oswin it is, but I can't be arsed to buy the tier difference atm. Especially with the inflated levels.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Colonel M

[Tangerine]

20/17 Marcus in ranked.

Yeah, no. Same goes for 20/14 Oswin.

Exactly, that makes absolutely no sense. I have 20/7 units on average at the start of Victory or Death because of rotation.

Besides, you don't assume you won just because Bal doesn't post as much as you. Wait until it's actually over; change the tiers back, Colonel.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[CATS]

It doesn't matter in Canas vs Lucius, but it DOES matter when it comes to tiering them. That's why you can't just move Canas up to where Lucius is, you have to see how well he does against units below Lucius first. If he's good enough to move up to Lucius, that's where he should be. If he isn't as good, Lucius needs to move down to him.

Or you can compare Lucius to the units below him. Either way, if Lucius = Canas is shown, it doesn't matter. You deal with where to place them after this has been shown and accepted. The two questions of "how good are they relative to each other?" and "how good are they relative to others?" are entirely separate issues.

Slim Lance gives a crit bonus; most units do not have crit bonuses, so it's more like 1-2%.

What? 74% hit is 86.74% real. 6% crit. .8674 * .06 = ~.052, ~5.2% chance of a crit activating. How is it 1-2%?

Most enemies don't have crit boosting weapons, but they do exist and enemy Skl alone is enough to put critrates on Lucius when he first joins. He cannot safely counter at all within range of just one enemy that can crit him.

Lucius could also just kill that Peg on the player phase anyway.

Irrelevant to the fact that he cannot safely counter it on enemy phase. You said "Lucius has an enemy phase too." He doesn't when he can get crit'd. This is evidence to support the fact that Canas has a stronger enemy phase than Lucius in terms of how many enemies he can safely counter without risking death.

[CATS]

Exactly, that makes absolutely no sense. I have 20/7 units on average at the start of Victory or Death because of rotation.

Besides, you don't assume you won just because Bal doesn't post as much as you. Wait until it's actually over; change the tiers back, Colonel.

In his defense, I imagine that assuming lower levels will not improve Oswin's case, considering how bad Marcus's growths are.

[Colonel M]

Wait until it's actually over; change the tiers back, Colonel.

Inui's post doesn't really sell me out, but the reasons go back to Oswin's 4 Mov and Marcus helping the second most necessary rank in the game (Tactics). If dondon or someone else DOES object, I will change it back.

[HJ.]

3x Pegasus Knight lv 7 (Javelin)

13-14 atk, 83-85 hit, 3 AS, 4-5 crit; 20-22 HP, 4-5 def, 5-7 res, 6 avo

Level 8 Lucius w/ Lightning

14 mt - 6 Res = 8x2 = 16

Barely even close. And that's a chapter 16 peg since I don't have samples for Pirate Ship. Either way, sucks to be Lucius.

Btw, a lot of your VoD stuff is wrong and/or massively biased towards Lucius (setting levels at 20/7 i.e. one level before Canas gets 18 AS and doubles all those enemies? lol), but it's really late here, so I'm saving it for tomorrow unless someone else counters it.

Edited February 14, 2010 by HJ.

[Tangerine]

Or you can compare Lucius to the units below him. Either way, if Lucius = Canas is shown, it doesn't matter. You deal with where to place them after this has been shown and accepted. The two questions of "how good are they relative to each other?" and "how good are they relative to others?" are entirely separate issues.

Lucius is higher on the list, compare Canas to those above him currently.

What? 74% hit is 86.74% real. 6% crit. .8674 * .06 = ~.052, ~5.2% chance of a crit activating. How is it 1-2%?

Most enemies don't have crit boosting weapons, but they do exist and enemy Skl alone is enough to put critrates on Lucius when he first joins. He cannot safely counter at all within range of just one enemy that can crit him.

Uh, I just said that most enemies do not have crit boosting weapons like the Slim Lance. If that you used does not have the Slim Lance, it has 1% chance to crit.

Irrelevant to the fact that he cannot safely counter it on enemy phase. You said "Lucius has an enemy phase too." He doesn't when he can get crit'd. This is evidence to support the fact that Canas has a stronger enemy phase than Lucius in terms of how many enemies he can safely counter without risking death.

It doesn't matter if he can get crit, it doesn't mean he doesn't have an enemy phase. He has a very fast support with Raven that gives him CEV anyway.

Btw, a lot of your VoD stuff is wrong and/or massively biased towards Lucius (setting levels at 20/7 i.e. one level before Canas gets 18 AS and doubles all those enemies? lol), but it's really late here, so I'm saving it for tomorrow unless someone else counters it.

Well Inui just posted stats that go with mine very well with slight variations (some higher, some lower) because stats are not the same every time, so I don't see how you can call mine wrong. You have clearly never S ranked if you think 20/7 at the start of VoD is low anyway.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[Inui]

Okay, so drop Oswin to 20/10 and make Marcus 20/13 and it's even better for Marcus since his growths are horrible compared to Oswin's.

There you go. Marcus wins by even more.

[HJ.]

No, I'm pretty sure 20/7 for people who don't have a joining time similar to Heath's is low. Especially staff users.

[Tangerine]

Okay, so drop Oswin to 20/10 and make Marcus 20/13 and it's even better for Marcus since his growths are horrible compared to Oswin's.

There you go. Marcus wins by even more.

Those aren't good levels either. Marcus does not have a lead at this point because he drains too much EXP. 20/7 at VoD is good for them. I agree Marcus and Oswin should be close, but you're exaggerating things too much.

No, I'm pretty sure 20/7 for people who don't have a joining time similar to Heath's is low. Especially staff users.

Not really, no. Lucius is the only one who gets large free EXP from staves, so you're arguing he should have a level lead. Rotation for the EXP rank is going to keep levels like this throughout the game. 20/10 is endgame, 20/7 at the start of VoD is what will happen.

[CATS]

Lucius is higher on the list, compare Canas to those above him currently.

Why can't Lucius be compared against units beneath him? Both lines of comparison should theoretically produce the same results; either Lucius > those below him and hence Canas should be moved up, or Lucius < than those below him and Lucius should go down.

Uh, I just said that most enemies do not have crit boosting weapons like the Slim Lance. If that you used does not have the Slim Lance, it has 1% chance to crit.

It doesn't matter if there's another enemy with iron nearby. If he's in range of that one peg with a slim lance, he has a 5.2% chance to die regardless of what else might be able to attack him. Actually it'd be slightly higher than that, considering you'd have to factor in the iron lance peg's crit chance as well. And he'd probably get 2HKO'd so it wouldn't even matter.

Facing crit chance from iron weapons isn't a good thing, either. The fact that most enemies don't have +crit weapons yet Lucius still faces crit even without them provides evidence in support of the notion that he essentially has no enemy phase whatsoever. Yeah, that 1% chance is low, but if you let him counter every turn and the chapter takes 10 turns, you're facing a ~10% chance of him dying just in that 1 chapter alone.

It doesn't matter if he can get crit, it doesn't mean he doesn't have an enemy phase.

So it's okay to put him in range of those enemies and risk death?

He has a very fast support with Raven that gives him CEV anyway.

The C rank gives him 2 CEV. Not nearly enough to cancel out the rates from crit-boosting weapons. Reaver enemies in Ch 22 have 8-9 crit. Lucius needs to be 20/9 in order to completely avoid critrates in that chapter with C Raven. And the support is fast, but it does take turns to build. Lucius will be stuck at 3-4 CEV and facing critrates from totally generic mooks like nomads for a period of time after he joins.

[HJ.]

Not necessarily, since Canas has a very viable reason for promoting before he hits level 20, while Lucius has none. By the time Lucius promotes, Canas can have a D in staves and Mend/Unlock/some other obscure staff = C isn't that far off. Besides, though you argue a level lead now, most likely to try and make me abandon this argument, that would be foolish of me, since two more levels will not have a noticeable performance on Lucius in VoD, but one more level for Canas most certainly will.

[Tangerine]

Why can't Lucius be compared against units beneath him? Both lines of comparison should theoretically produce the same results; either Lucius > those below him and hence Canas should be moved up, or Lucius < than those below him and Lucius should go down.

Canas is the one you're trying to argue up, I don't care either way. If you want Canas up, argue Canas up the right way or argue Lucius down. I don't care, just don't think it's right to skip all those characters.

Facing crit chance from iron weapons isn't a good thing, either. The fact that most enemies don't have +crit weapons yet Lucius still faces crit even without them provides evidence in support of the notion that he essentially has no enemy phase whatsoever. Yeah, that 1% chance is low, but if you let him counter every turn and the chapter takes 10 turns, you're facing a ~10% chance of him dying just in that 1 chapter alone.

He doesn't need to counter every turn to have an enemy phase.

So it's okay to put him in range of those enemies and risk death?

Yes. It's not high enough to hurt your ranks and EXP by stopping him from attacking.

The C rank gives him 2 CEV. Not nearly enough to cancel out the rates from crit-boosting weapons. Reaver enemies in Ch 22 have 8-9 crit. Lucius needs to be 20/9 in order to completely avoid critrates in that chapter with C Raven. And the support is fast, but it does take turns to build. Lucius will be stuck at 3-4 CEV and facing critrates from totally generic mooks like nomads for a period of time after he joins.

It's enough to avoid being crit by the VAST majority of common units.

Not necessarily, since Canas has a very viable reason for promoting before he hits level 20, while Lucius has none. By the time Lucius promotes, Canas can have a D in staves and Mend/Unlock/some other obscure staff = C isn't that far off. Besides, though you argue a level lead now, most likely to try and make me abandon this argument, that would be foolish of me, since two more levels will not have a noticeable performance on Lucius in VoD, but one more level for Canas most certainly will.

Nobody gets to promote early. Promoting Canas early hurts the EXP rank. Not only does he get reduced EXP for being promoted, but he loses all of the EXP from the levels you don't gain. Promoting Priscilla or Serra early gives you better results than promoting Canas early.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[Colonel M]

Newsflash CATS: I don't remember Slim Lance Pegasi after Chapter 16.

[Inui]

Marcus and Oswin only being 20/7 in VoD makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Tangerine]

Marcus and Oswin only being 20/7 in VoD makes absolutely no sense to me.

That's because you're assuming they're both being used in the chapters they're available instead of rotating like dondon and I suggest.

[Inui]

20/1 in Chapter 12.

20/7 in Chapter 32.

Uh... That's basically dropping Marcus entirely after the earlygame.

[HJ.]

That's contradictory because the faster Canas gets access to staves and can level up his rank, the more Exp he can harvest from them. Erk has no real excuse for doing this, but Canas also gets the added bonus of becoming a great offensive unit (4 AS is that good) in addition to his staves. There Is No Reason Not To Promote Canas Early.

Also, there are lots of Guiding Rings, plus Earth Seal to the rescue.

And what's this rotating business? Not once have I on FEFF heard of team-rotation being necessary, and frankly I'm hard pressed to see the advantages to it.

Having a bunch of 20/7 units is not > having a smaller bunch of 20/15 units, and the latter is preferable for other ranks such as Tactics, which in turn paves the way for chapters like 32x.

Edited February 14, 2010 by HJ.

[Tangerine]

20/1 in Chapter 12.

20/7 in Chapter 32.

Uh... That's basically dropping Marcus entirely after the earlygame.

That's because he will not be participating much realistically. Oswin won't until a little later either. Your units that gain decent EXP should be given priority so they're able to handle themselves. Getting promoted EXP when you could be getting unpromoted EXP is not efficient in the least.

That's contradictory because the faster Canas gets access to staves and can level up his rank, the more Exp he can harvest from them. Erk has no real excuse for doing this, but Canas also gets the added bonus of becoming a great offensive unit (4 AS is that good) in addition to his staves. There Is No Reason Not To Promote Canas Early.

It isn't contradictory at all. You already have units that can cover all of your healing needs and can't do anything else in the first place. You're essentially losing an attacker that gets good EXP for a Cleric (that gets less EXP using staves) that hurts the EXP rank when attacking. Unpromoted Canas levels faster than promoted Canas.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Tangerine

[HJ.]

Last I checked Serra/Priscilla were only two units, and unless you have an item that grants you forest-terrain wherever you are, I entirely reject the notion that there aren't more than 2 units to heal after the average enemy phase. Besides, you ignored the actual point of my argument and instead nitpicked at the little period of time where Canas is locked to heal. Once Canas reaches higher staff ranks, he'll more than make up for whatever was lost by promoting him at level 15-16.