FE6 HM Tier List

[RNG Princess]

What an odd one he says Karel > Rutger, Sophia > Niime, Wolt > Igrene, Wendy > the other knights and yet he says Yuno should never be used. =/

Is Yuno really that bad? I thought she was ok at chipping/ferrying. His logic is contradicting.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

What an odd one he says Karel > Rutger, Sophia > Niime, Wolt > Igrene, Wendy > the other knights and yet he says Yuno should never be used. =/

Is Yuno really that bad? I thought she was ok at chipping/ferrying. His logic is contradicting.

I have to agree - his logic is rather contradictory. As for Yunno, I never really put that much value on ferrying (more often than not, if I'm rescuing someone, it's to get them out of danger), so...

[RNG Princess]

Well if Yuno shouldnt be used much less Wendy etc. Unless Yuno is actually way worse.

[Shadow Mir]

Well if Yuno shouldnt be used much less Wendy etc. Unless Yuno is actually way worse.

Well, I'll say at least Yunno isn't COMPLETELY useless, which is more than can be said of Wendy (I say, Wendy's a very good candidate for the worst unit in the entire FE series).

[Balcerzak]

In my (reasonably) efficient draft playthrough with Juno, she played a vital role, at least in Chapter 21, in ferrying people across the reinforcement triggers. That utility would be slightly reduced with access to Tate and Miredy, but since I remember needing multiple turns to get all my units across, her contribution should still be useful. Her combat is... lackluster.

[Colonel M]

Lackluster doesn't even begin to describe it. It's freaking terrible. <_<

Alright we had our "fun" with Trueblade, let's knock back into discussion. We should probably discuss this Lot > Fir thing a bit more (or the other way if there's some objection).

[Dark Sage]

I dunno if there is.

On another note, Lugh>Roy. Early on, Lugh has 1-2 range so he doesn't eat a counter. He maintains that advantage, gains a speed advantage, and gets staves when he promotes. He also has Aircalibur utility to deal with wyverns. And he's not stuck with a forced promotion.

[Narga_Rocks]

Also pardon me for stealing this from Narga here but....ignore?

Wow. That post was remembered. Awesome. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=1195904 I'd completely forgotten about that post until you reminded me.

And what's hilarious is that your picture seems to be the same idea (though from a different place) as RF's pic in the next post. Oh, and the one she found was higher quality. Use that from now on.

Except when Daylight Savings time begins and the clock is stuck anywhere between 2:00 and 2:59.

You could perhaps say when it ends and if the clock is stuck between 1:00 and 1:59. It is then right 3 times a day. You could argue that 3 is at least 2, but I rather think that the twice a day part implies only twice a day. Then there's the issue of taking the clock and going to a different timezone.

Anyway, if Lot and Fir are going to be argued again, would anyone be willing to grab some posts from old arguments so people don't have to go over the same stuff again and again?

Edited March 20, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Earliest argument I could find, and responses.

[grandjackal]

Well simply put, I think the argument against Fir is nice and sound. I believe the only new development between Fir<Lot was Bartre's re-evaluation and being a semi-reliable support for her. However, I don't think a support with Not-Echidna is going to save her in that argument.

Agreeing with Lot>Fir.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think Fir > Lot. Lot's flaw is that his offense goes anemic in the isles when he's 3RKO'ing (with iron) at shaky hit rates and never recovers since the lack of exp gain feeds back into itself. In addition, his durability just isn't doing much for you when the goal is to advance and the maps are large. You can see in Sacae that even though he can return fire with the iron bow and survive easily, it barely helps when all your progress happens on player phase which requires being able to actually kill something. On the other hand, Fir has one of the best offenses on the team and is not a problem defensively either due to high avoid/enough concrete durability.

I'm going to go ahead and respond to this:

This is already superior to Fir's join situation. Chapters 10E and 11E have 12 slots for deployment each. 1 goes to Roy, 2 go to Marcus and Zealot, Alan and Lance each get one, Clarine, Shin, Dieck, and Rutger get one too. 9 slots are already taken. Lilina is required for 10E and Thany is required for 11E (in addition to neutralizing Tate, she does rescue-drop). The 2 slots remaining are still highly contested for: Fir has to compete with Lot, Noah, Gonzo, Saul, and Astohl for those 2 spots. Astohl is basically Fir except with superior combat (Astohl can use Steel Sword with less AS loss), Noah has WT control in addition to mount, Gonzo occasionally ORKOs in 11E, Saul is secondary healer when Clarine isn't enough, and Lot supports Thany and Dieck while being a fairly decent fighter himself. Lot gets 6 chapters of virtually free deployment whereas Fir gets about a half. And from there on, there is even more deployment competition that Fir has to deal with. You get Tate and Klein for chapter 12 and Miledy for chapter 14.

Lot - terrible offense and not even on track for durability at this point

Noah - cannot double anything that doesn't have steel and has less eventual potential

Gonzo - is not competition in 10A; fair game in 11A but of course, hit rates

Saul - fair enough

Astohl - even with steel, offense is not better than Fir's (2RKO vs 2RKO) and has no potential

10A Fir should be deployed and since it's easy to level her up (Wo Dao is an excellent option), she'll probably be on track for 11A too, and past that point, the deployment situation only gets better besides 12x since Marcus and Zealot are getting phased out and the number of deployment spots is increasing. Bandits in 14 secure Fir's long term use.

Edited March 20, 2011 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[grandjackal]

I think Fir > Lot. Lot's flaw is that his offense goes anemic in the isles when he's 3RKO'ing (with iron) at shaky hit rates and never recovers since the lack of exp gain feeds back into itself.

What exactly do you mean by the lack of exp gain? High level, or the "horses eat everything" syndrome? If it's the ladder, how is this an argument that helps Fir?

In addition, his durability just isn't doing much for you when the goal is to advance and the maps are large.

Which we know that Fir is so much better at.

...Seriously? In the least, Lot has, oh I dunno, RANGE. Hand axe having ass accuracy or no, it beats the option of "nothing". I'd think that helps more for map clearing, as it gives additional reach to make up for not having horse move.

Even then, ignoring the fact he has a durability lead is still handwaving the fact that Fir is made of paper.

You can see in Sacae that even though he can return fire with the iron bow and survive easily, it barely helps when all your progress happens on player phase which requires being able to actually kill something.

And chipping at it doesn't help the player phase? The less I have to waste brave or killer weapons, the better, and chipping is again better than being a pincushion.

On the other hand, Fir has one of the best offenses on the team and is not a problem defensively either due to high avoid/enough concrete durability.

Even with her hard mode bonuses, she has less speed and luck than Ashtor, and he's at least got 6 move, thief utility, more availability, faster leveling speed due to class, and C swords for Light Brand use...Oh, and more Con.

But hey, let's forget the fact that she's so high in the avoid rate (because having less than Ashtor is high), and remember that this is a comparison between her and Lot. Let's ignore the fact that he's probably one of the better cantidates for the upcoming Speedwing which would give him the speed to double (and thus, be winning offense on virtue of stronger weapon type and better durability), but he's probably also got supports, at least in the form of Deick to help him kick more ass himself.

Furthermore, let's see if your claim is actually true about her high avoid rate. Let's say when we get off hte isles, she's level 10 with 45 avoid.

Group 1

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo): 22 Atk, 78 Hit, 5 Crit----37 Hp, 9 Def, 2 Res, 23 Avo, 8 AS, 7 CEV

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Killer Lance: 23 Atk, 101 Hit, 35 Crit----38 Hp, 10 Def, 2 Res, 32 Avo, 12 AS, 8 CEV

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Axereaver: 23 Atk, 102 Hit, 11 Crit----39 Hp, 10 Def, 3 Res, 27 Avo, 10 AS, 7 CEV

1 L15 Cavalier w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo): 24 Atk, 81 Hit, 5 Crit----39 Hp, 9 Def, 2 Res, 24 Avo, 8 AS, 8 CEV

1 L3 Paladin w/ Silver Lance: 30 Atk, 98 Hit, 7 Crit----46 Hp, 14 Def, 7 Res, 31 Avo, 12 AS, 7 CEV

Even against the axereaver guy, it's essentially a coinflip, and that's with WTA. 31 HP and 5 Def. Every single one of these things 2HKOs her, and some of them have range. As for her "astounding offense", giving her her strongest option (Steel Sword, basically, which reduces her avoid by a lot due to being weighed down by 5, Lot's speed after a wing I should note, and losing 10 avoid so now the enemies have rather favorable hit), she does around 19 mt worth of damage, -1 with disadvantage and +1 with advantage. She does not even do double digits to most of them, and in the case of the likes of the killer cav and paladin, can't even double. She can't even 2RKO a majority of them. FFS man, at least Lot's still got his Halberd.

What would we assume is Lot's level here? 13? With a Wing, he basically doubles the same stuff with most of his weapons, and can at least 2RKO. Assuming 13, that's 37 HP and 8 Defense with WTA (on most). 3RKOd. If we factor in a Deick support, even just a C would make the 22 ATK enemies 4RKO. Then factor in hand axes allowing him to avoid taking counters on occasion (and speaking of having no range, how often can Fir put her offense to use when she's 2RKOd and taking counters?).

Yeah, 4-5 chapters later and she is apparently still not outperforming Lot, who is "amiable" at this point, and I was spoiling Fir for her "avoid so high it negates her defense" and "amazing offense". Do try again.

I'm going to go ahead and respond to this:

Lot - terrible offense and not even on track for durability at this point

\

His offense is still better actually, and his durability is still beating Fir. But then again, who am I to argue with someone with such amazing fantastic avoid?

Noah - cannot double anything that doesn't have steel and has less eventual potential

He has a horse, which helps in lugging Roy around to the thrones faster, or for getting prizes from houses and such. It's pretty much the entire reason he brought up Noah.

Gonzo - is not competition in 10A; fair game in 11A but of course, hit rates

I'd take a god with shaky hit rates over someone who just plain sucks any day of the week.

Astohl - even with steel, offense is not better than Fir's (2RKO vs 2RKO) and has no potential

More move, rank for Lightbrand for range and Lancereaver for badassery against lances. His offense is in fact better in some ways. Also, Killer Edges.

10A Fir should be deployed and since it's easy to level her up (Wo Dao is an excellent option)

Before Rutger takes it.

she'll probably be on track for 11A too, and past that point, the deployment situation only gets better besides 12x since Marcus and Zealot are getting phased out and the number of deployment spots is increasing. Bandits in 14 secure Fir's long term use.

Hey dondon, how fast can we get through the desert again? I recall at this point we didn't even need to mess with the bandits with how fast we can go. Even if we still did, this is ignoring the fact that afterwards is a ton and ton of lances (plus bows if we're going Sacae), which as we can see pose a pretty big problem for her.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

What exactly do you mean by the lack of exp gain? High level, or the "horses eat everything" syndrome? If it's the ladder, how is this an argument that helps Fir?

The part where to gain exp you need to be able to kill stuff. Just asking, have you tried using Lot in game?

Which we know that Fir is so much better at.

Um, yes? Unless you mean to say Rutger isn't doing that much for us.

...Seriously? In the least, Lot has, oh I dunno, RANGE. Hand axe having ass accuracy or no, it beats the option of "nothing". I'd think that helps more for map clearing, as it gives additional reach to make up for not having horse move.

Ranged offense is terrible enough that it makes only a marginal difference when compared to ORKO'ing. See: Rutger and Shin.

Even then, ignoring the fact he has a durability lead is still handwaving the fact that Fir is made of paper.

If it doesn't matter that much, it doesn't matter that much.

And chipping at it doesn't help the player phase? The less I have to waste brave or killer weapons, the better, and chipping is again better than being a pincushion.

It barely helps. Also considering the fact that you are not perpetually equipping 1-2 range weapons since you're killing units on player phase, AI will not prioritize Lot anyway, which makes him rather redundant.

Even with her hard mode bonuses, she has less speed and luck than Ashtor, and he's at least got 6 move, thief utility, more availability, faster leveling speed due to class, and C swords for Light Brand use...Oh, and more Con.

1. Are you saying Fir has speed and luck issues?

2. 6 mov is valid.

3. Why does thief utility matter in 10/11A?

4. How does more availability matter in 10/11A?

5. Did you notice the 9 level gap between Fir and Astohl when considering leveling speed?

6. Why are we wasting the Light Brand in the Isles?

7. Why does more Con matter if the end product offense is the same?

8. Why did you ignore the fact that Astohl has no potential?

But hey, let's forget the fact that she's so high in the avoid rate (because having less than Ashtor is high),

Why are you taking this statement out of context?

and remember that this is a comparison between her and Lot. Let's ignore the fact that he's probably one of the better cantidates for the upcoming Speedwing which would give him the speed to double (and thus, be winning offense on virtue of stronger weapon type and better durability),

Wing is not enough to bust him out of his offensive rut.

but he's probably also got supports, at least in the form of Deick to help him kick more ass himself.

Which doesn't fix his problems.

Furthermore, let's see if your claim is actually true about her high avoid rate. Let's say when we get off hte isles, she's level 10 with 45 avoid.

Group 1

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo): 22 Atk, 78 Hit, 5 Crit----37 Hp, 9 Def, 2 Res, 23 Avo, 8 AS, 7 CEV

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Killer Lance: 23 Atk, 101 Hit, 35 Crit----38 Hp, 10 Def, 2 Res, 32 Avo, 12 AS, 8 CEV

1 L14 Cavalier w/ Axereaver: 23 Atk, 102 Hit, 11 Crit----39 Hp, 10 Def, 3 Res, 27 Avo, 10 AS, 7 CEV

1 L15 Cavalier w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo): 24 Atk, 81 Hit, 5 Crit----39 Hp, 9 Def, 2 Res, 24 Avo, 8 AS, 8 CEV

1 L3 Paladin w/ Silver Lance: 30 Atk, 98 Hit, 7 Crit----46 Hp, 14 Def, 7 Res, 31 Avo, 12 AS, 7 CEV

Even against the axereaver guy, it's essentially a coinflip, and that's with WTA. 31 HP and 5 Def. Every single one of these things 2HKOs her, and some of them have range. As for her "astounding offense", giving her her strongest option (Steel Sword, basically, which reduces her avoid by a lot due to being weighed down by 5, Lot's speed after a wing I should note, and losing 10 avoid so now the enemies have rather favorable hit), she does around 19 mt worth of damage, -1 with disadvantage and +1 with advantage. She does not even do double digits to most of them, and in the case of the likes of the killer cav and paladin, can't even double. She can't even 2RKO a majority of them. FFS man, at least Lot's still got his Halberd.

Either you're severely sandbagging or demonstrate a fundamental lack of tactical knowledge.

Also, seeing as it's feasible to get Fir to level 5 in her joining chapter, 10 is low.

What would we assume is Lot's level here? 13? With a Wing, he basically doubles the same stuff with most of his weapons, and can at least 2RKO. Assuming 13, that's 37 HP and 8 Defense with WTA (on most). 3RKOd. If we factor in a Deick support, even just a C would make the 22 ATK enemies 4RKO. Then factor in hand axes allowing him to avoid taking counters on occasion (and speaking of having no range, how often can Fir put her offense to use when she's 2RKOd and taking counters?).

And respectively, 13 is high for Lot. He has big issues killing things past soldiers. Where is he gaining those levels?

Even in this scenario where Lot is supposed to win, you should notice that the Axereaver and Paladin shit all over Lot, seeing as if he wants to double anything even with the wing, he has to equip to hand axe, which does a whopping 4 damage per hit to the Paladin, and I don't even need to go into the Axereaver. He's even only doubling the Steel Lance cavs for 9x2, which is a 3RKO. Killer Lance cav is dangerous for anyone.

I have to ask, do you really send Lot to deal with these guys?

His offense is still better actually, and his durability is still beating Fir. But then again, who am I to argue with someone with such amazing fantastic avoid?

Step 1: Make claims.

Step 2: ??????

He has a horse, which helps in lugging Roy around to the thrones faster, or for getting prizes from houses and such. It's pretty much the entire reason he brought up Noah.

Between Alan, Lance, Marcus, Zealot, Clarine, and Thany, you've pretty much got it covered. Your two extra slots can best be put to work for long term investment.

I'd take a god with shaky hit rates over someone who just plain sucks any day of the week.

Well that's cool.

More move, rank for Lightbrand for range and Lancereaver for badassery against lances. His offense is in fact better in some ways. Also, Killer Edges.

Stuff above.

Before Rutger takes it.

Would you rather have 2 Rutgers or 1?

Hey dondon, how fast can we get through the desert again? I recall at this point we didn't even need to mess with the bandits with how fast we can go. Even if we still did, this is ignoring the fact that afterwards is a ton and ton of lances (plus bows if we're going Sacae), which as we can see pose a pretty big problem for her.

If we're going for max efficiency, this list could use some major changes.

[dondon151]

Lot - terrible offense and not even on track for durability at this point

Assume that this is correct.

Noah - cannot double anything that doesn't have steel and has less eventual potential

So what? We have Rutger doing Fir's job fine already in addition to a group of units who are already slated for long term use. At this point, when we're weighing competition for the last 2 unit slots, potential is a non-factor. The key is that Noah is saving turns now by actually reaching enemies and putting them in KO range with Steel Sword compared to Fir not saving turns now and not saving turns later either because she is completely redundant (not to mention the cavaliers are just better than her).

Gonzo - is not competition in 10A; fair game in 11A but of course, hit rates

True. I personally wouldn't pass up the chance for an ORKO, however.

Saul - fair enough

OK.

Astohl - even with steel, offense is not better than Fir's (2RKO vs 2RKO) and has no potential

6 move is better than 5 move, and the potential argument as already been addressed. There's a slight difference in this case in that the extra EXP for Astohl makes it easier for him to take hits in later maps when he needs to put himself at risk of enemy attack to thief stuff.

10A Fir should be deployed and since it's easy to level her up (Wo Dao is an excellent option), she'll probably be on track for 11A too, and past that point, the deployment situation only gets better besides 12x since Marcus and Zealot are getting phased out and the number of deployment spots is increasing. Bandits in 14 secure Fir's long term use.

Chapter 10E (Echidna's chapter 10) is not an EXP pool for Fir. The groups of enemies on the map have mercenaries and archers interspersed, all of which 2HKO Fir and scary hit rates (even fighters are not a reliable dodge at base). Fir can feasibly milk only 3, maybe even only 2, of the pirate reinforcements before Roy seizes the gate.

Zealot is still good in chapter 13. Deployment actually gets worse for Fir after chapter 11 because Klein and Echidna join in chapter 12, Miledy in chapter 13, Cecilia in chapter 14, and Percival in chapter 15. All of them have more movement than Fir and provide utility that isn't already present on the team.

It's certainly possible to move Fir to the brigand reinforcements in chapter 14 because those guys appear pretty early. The question is if it is desirable, because you really do need all of the unit slots on the map to contribute to useful tasks (like progressing through the map) instead of self-improvement. There is no doubt in my mind that Fir will cost turns in chapter 14 if she does take on the brigand reinforcements.

Quite honestly, I would rather have 1 Rutger instead of 2, because having the second one means I can't have a Miledy, Percival, Clarine, Klein, Saul, etc.

Edited March 21, 2011 by dondon151

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

From a maximum efficiency standpoint, I'd agree. However, if you're looking at things from that perspective, the tier list could use a lot of changes and then we'd be going into stuff like Wendy vs Treck and yeah.

[Anouleth]

From a maximum efficiency standpoint, I'd agree. However, if you're looking at things from that perspective, the tier list could use a lot of changes and then we'd be going into stuff like Wendy vs Treck and yeah.

Well, it's never quite been clear how far on the scale of efficiency this tier list stands. Would my own playthrough be considered 'efficient'? Or something more like Narga's playthrough? Or is it more like dondon's? I think that unless we clarify how willing we are to extend the possibility of deployment outside the 'perfect team', the question of Lot vs Fir can't really be answered in a way that satisfies everyone.

[Junkhead]

I think Treck can defeneatly head up to Mid above Cath.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Okay, I know Chad is useful as the first thief you get but he's so damn fragile he needs a semi-decent unit to protect him when said unit can be tearing up the map somewhere else. He should be a bit lower. DEFINITELY lower than Thany.

[Dark Sage]

Chad gets you some useful stuff before Astol even exists and after that, Chad can still get all the stuff Astol and Cath can get.

Simply put, he doesn't have to share credit his thieving contributions and those contributions net you:

13,000 gold

Silver Lance

Killer Axe

Halberd

Rapier

Barrier

Gems/Lockpick/Vulns to steal

Halberd is extremely good. Who can say no to an extra Silver Lance? Killer Axe is also kickass and you have to wait for a few chapters before they're buyable. Barrier's useful for leveling staffers up and is useful in chapters like 14 and 14x. Another Rapier is good and 13,000 gold allows for more room for splurging.

Simply put, Astol has no answer to this. And while he is the better thief from the get go, he can't get you those items while Chad can. Further more, Chest Keys become buyable in Chapter 7, so Chad's contributions before then are irreplaceable.

[Mekkah]

He said below Thany though, not below Ashtol.

[Dark Sage]

Thany is below Astol though. If Chad is going to drop below her, than so Astol must as well.

[Radiant Dragon]

Why is Thany below Asthol?

[Colonel M]

K so... I won't make a budge on Lot vs. Fir yet. Maybe that should be fleshed out more or something.

I'm going to pull a SDS and make a Unique Utility. The following units will reside there:

- Cath

- Chad

- Asthol

- Clarine

- Ellen

- Saul

- Roy

- Merlinus

- Lalum / Elphin

Seems fair enough to do and prevents retarded arguments like thieving vs. healing. Thany can go there too if only because 80% of her contributions, if not 100% of it involve Rescue.

I'll wait on this one too until there's serious objections.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Colonel M

[Silvercrow]

I'd say that if you're putting Thany there, Tate and Juno should probably go there as well, since roughly ~80% (or probably more like 100% in Juno's case) of their contributions are rescuing or chipping as well.

[Colonel M]

Tate can climb out of the lack of combat rut at worst, it's just for Thany it's difficult and Juuno it's impossible. Don't disagree on Juuno at least. I had some people disagree in the IP chat but seriously; if you have problems with it please speak up.