FE6 HM Tier List

[Florete]

So it's okay with you guys to give Sophia full credit for picking up and item in the sand, but it's not okay to give full credit to Lalum for getting the starting inventory of Percival and Echidna, Roy getting you the starting inventory of a bajillion units, etc.?

I would say you can credit Lalum for Percival's starting inventory, though. I like to think Dart can be credited for getting a Steel Bow and Killer Axe in the same fashion.

Read plz.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

Picking up the item is specifically like a Thief stealing an item. Honestly, how hard is this to understand here?

[Balcerzak]

How do you get what Percival is carrying and the unit Percival himself? You talk to him with Lalum. Can this be done any other way? No, it can't. There is no other way to obtain Percival's valuable starting inventory and the Knight Crest he gets from his men surviving other than chatting with him with Lalum.

You could always talk to him with Elphin. I hate it when people use absolutes, and are wrong about it. This probably comes off as nitpicking though.

Would you really want to give Roy credit for the Clarine chain? She recruits herself and Roy must exist otherwise the game is over. You could give partial credit to all your other units for leaving one of Roy's facings open, but it's not like Roy goes and talks to her. She (and everyone she recruits or is recruited by a unit she recruits) is the exception to your rule, though. Now, under those assumptions the rest of those units still become the Roy entity, but Rutger and Klein are part of the Clarine entity. Tate can either be part of the Thany entity or the Clarine entity, so I'm not sure what you should do with her. Stick half of her in each group, possibly?

Thany doesn't actually recruit Tito, just stops her berserk rampage against your units and converts her to Other. Tito is part of Clarine entity... is what I was going to say, but apparently looking it up (then not believing it and testing it) I was clearly mistaken. I would clearly argue that a 50/50 split is highly unlikely, as allowing Thany to recruit will basically sacrifice the Elysian Whip as Tito's mooks die against Thany, not to mention avoiding recruiting Klein while still saving the villages from the bandits would take some impressive bits of strategy, most likely needing distraction pulling them along the southern area. Personally I think a 75/25 split Clarine/Thany is still incredibly generous to the Thany side of things.

[Narga_Rocks]

Thany doesn't actually recruit Tito, just stops her berserk rampage against your units and converts her to Other. Tito is part of Clarine entity... is what I was going to say, but apparently looking it up (then not believing it and testing it) I was clearly mistaken. I would clearly argue that a 50/50 split is highly unlikely, as allowing Thany to recruit will basically sacrifice the Elysian Whip as Tito's mooks die against Thany, not to mention avoiding recruiting Klein while still saving the villages from the bandits would take some impressive bits of strategy, most likely needing distraction pulling them along the southern area. Personally I think a 75/25 split Clarine/Thany is still incredibly generous to the Thany side of things.

You've got a point. 10/90 or something lopsided like that is more reasonable.

It is, though, theoretically possible to cover the Tate part of it, though. Simply use Lalum. Have Thany chat with Tate, have Clarine chat with Klein, then dance for Thany and have her talk with Tate. The archer part at the bottom while trying to save villages would be a major pain, though. So 10/90 is reasonable.

[-Cynthia-]

Sofia does join with only 15 HP, 2 AS and 1 DEF. She does indeed have 1-2 range to help make up for it, but if anything gets to her, she's dead. She should literally be getting one rounded by everything if they manage to attack her.

EDIT: Not to say I think Wendy's better. If they both joined in the same chapter then yeah, Wendy might be better, but Wendy's been sucking hard for a while now while Sofia has been happily not existing. My only beef earlier was with the notion of putting Sofia a tier above Wendy.

I'm not seieng how availabiltiy really hurts a unit. If anything, it gives Wendy time to improve herself before Sophia joins, which is why I think Wendy might be better as Inui pointed out.

[grandjackal]

I'm not seieng how availabiltiy really hurts a unit. If anything, it gives Wendy time to improve herself before Sophia joins, which is why I think Wendy might be better as Inui pointed out.

How, when, what? As in, how do we get her to improve? When, as in when do we see results? Finally, what, as in what is the result exactly?

Some units I could actually buy the notion of wasting the efficiency of a single chapter if it means I will get some results out of it. After all, they might fuck up one chapter, but on the other hand we get an actual benefit out of it the next. It's better they would mess up one chapter really bad then fuck up for a good portion of the game. Now if they improved that quickly, I wouldn't mind.

Problem is, this is Wendy. The best she can hope for in a relevent amount of time is to be incredibly crummy while being stuck as a shitty class. Even if trained up, what then? Show us these results, show us how we can baby her early on to make her any sort of useful. At least if I babied Sophia for a couple chapters (14 might not be the best, 14x seems ok in comparison if not for all the pirates in water), I could have another staff user by 16x that can do magic chip...Inaccurately. That in hte least is leagues better than Wendy sucking royally on the isles no matter what, only to come out the other side still mediocre.

That is, unless something can be shown to direct my thoughts otherwise...Even I as an armor knight fan have to accept that Wendy is utter unusable trash.

[Narga_Rocks]

That is, unless something can be shown to direct my thoughts otherwise...Even I as an armor knight fan have to accept that Wendy is utter unusable trash.

Maybe you are just a male-armor-knight-only fan? Appreciate Wendy more or you are not an equal opportunity armor knight fan.

[grandjackal]

Maybe you are just a male-armor-knight-only fan? Appreciate Wendy more or you are not an equal opportunity armor knight fan.

Quite the opposite, I WISH there was a way to make Wendy usable. However, I have to look at the facts, that she's a shitty class with shitty bases with a weapon type that's shitty for what she's about to go up against.

Boris at least can rescue-tankbot in earlygame where it's spear/sword heavy like chapter 3 or chapter 6, and Barth can actually get decent results witht he opportunity cost of an early promotion.

Wendy? Got nothing, unfortunately. Even my trick of murdering the enemies you can trap by bottlenecking the leading archer and throwing javelins wouldn't help because she just...Urgh. I can't even think up a way to make her usable, much less useful, and you know how badly I muddle my brain about such things.

I'll just lay it out here. If you want her to be semi-useful on the isles, the soonest you could, you would need to get her to level 14 and then early seal her. She won't be tanking like Barth would, but on the other hand she'd at least be doubling with identical strength if we promoted Barth at 10. Boris would need to be level 16 to get similar results, but with more defense.

The best I've managed (and I've done it before) was level 10. If we were to accept that for 1 or 2 chapters we would force ourselves to really much up efficiency for the sake of babying a character, you would have to give her every kill in my chapter 8 trick, then bring in both armors with Wendy to 8x for Triangle Attack, reasons being A. You don't necessarily have to chip that much to get her kills, B. Takes the accuracy factor instantly out as the TA never misses, and C. Since less effort is required, you wouldn't be TOTALLY shafting efficiency. You don't even have to train the other two knights, all you have to do is position them, and let Wendy perhaps equip some Steel for 14 might. Looking at stats, the triangle attack would wreck anything in one shot with her equipping steel aside rom Fighters, of which she needs an additional 2 might to pull off.

That's already a lot of trouble to go through, and personally I don't think there's enough EXP for her to just suddenly jump to level 14 before the start of chapter 9. I suppose if she got to level 11, she wouldn't be...As easy to kill, but seriously. She still needs help getting kills with her 8 Str and 7 Speed. Then remember she still has only 4 move.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Rewjeo]

Wendy's extra availability would help if Inui was arguing that she was doing something helpful during that time. However, what Inui's arguing means that Wendy has to be massively negative for a long time.

[dondon151]

Would you really want to give Roy credit for the Clarine chain? She recruits herself and Roy must exist otherwise the game is over. You could give partial credit to all your other units for leaving one of Roy's facings open, but it's not like Roy goes and talks to her.

If you rescue Roy, I don't think Clarine can talk to him. If you have Roy run away from Clarine, she can't recruit herself. You still need Roy to recruit her, whether he has to move towards her or she moves towards him.

And that's beside the point anyway. If you want to group 17/53 units in the game into one position on the tier list, have fun with that.

[Narga_Rocks]

If you rescue Roy, I don't think Clarine can talk to him. If you have Roy run away from Clarine, she can't recruit herself. You still need Roy to recruit her, whether he has to move towards her or she moves towards him.

And that's beside the point anyway. If you want to group 17/53 units in the game into one position on the tier list, have fun with that.

I don't want to.

(As for the Clarine thing, if you rescue Roy it's still other units preventing it, which is similar to blocking all his facings. And with 5 move he can't run away forever, unless there is a way to stand him somewhere that if he moves one direction, she moves that direction, and if he moves back, she moves back, in such a way that she never makes progress. But I suspect that isn't possible. In effect, Clarine recruiting herself is in the control of every unit on the field except Roy.)

Anyway, yeah, giving credit for recruiting units and not grouping them is bad double-counting, and grouping a bunch of units under "Roy" seems like it would make a weird list.

[Inui]

If you hold a low tier unit's performance against it during a time period where the unit's competition does not exist, then low tier comparisons are likely to turn into an availability contest similar to the gross system, but in reverse. The unit with less availability wins almost by default.

Yeah, this list is still just as gay as it was before.

Colonel M, plz do something. :(

I wouldn't hold it against her if Inui was arguing that Wendy was just making potshots, but he's arguing that she's leveling quickly, and doing that is a huge negative since it requires you take a lot longer than you normally would.

Wendy's extra availability would help if Inui was arguing that she was doing something helpful during that time. However, what Inui's arguing means that Wendy has to be massively negative for a long time.

Eh? She's not gaining levels quickly. Seems pretty normal or slow to me.

My main point is that using Wendy is possible. How do you use Sophia?

Pead plz.

The tier list does not reflect it. Only in the case of Sophia does it.

[Dat Nick]

My main point is that using Wendy is possible. How do you use Sophia?

We've told you 1000000 times how Sophia is better and all you do is keep repeating "but hur dur how do you use sophia". Ask your god Reikken about it. If you won't listen to us, maybe you'll listen to him.

The tier list does not reflect it. Only in the case of Sophia does it.

And Chad, and Matthew, and Colm, and all that other shit thieves are credited for. If those units are credited for items only they can get, Sophia should be credited too, otherwise it creates a double standard. One standard is enough. Either units get credited for shit like the silver card, or they don't.

Edited March 9, 2010 by s Portsman

[Inui]

I don't see how Sophia is usable. How can she gain EXP without being able to hit things? She also dies instantly no matter what attacks her. Wendy can be raised to promotion.

Not everyone is being credited for what items they get. Lalum needs a boost for getting a Silver Sword and Silver Lance, as does Elphin. Lilina needs a slight boost for getting you a Devil Axe, Steel Axe, and Hand Axe. It all needs to be taken into account if Sophia gets credit for that Guiding Ring.

[Dat Nick]

How can she gain EXP without being able to hit things?

Wendy's accuracy is even worse, and she can't even DAMAGE things.

She also dies instantly no matter what attacks her.

yeah the exact same thing with Wendy anywhere past the Isles.

I don't even know why I'm trying to explain it to you anymore. Reikken, help please.

[Colonel M]

Not everyone is being credited for what items they get. Lalum needs a boost for getting a Silver Sword and Silver Lance, as does Elphin. Lilina needs a slight boost for getting you a Devil Axe, Steel Axe, and Hand Axe. It all needs to be taken into account if Sophia gets credit for that Guiding Ring.

That's a completely different argument. Sophia's Guiding Ring is more closer to the Thieves stealing something than recruitment. Those contributions belong to Percival, Gonzales, and Gerret respectively.

[Florete]

Not everyone is being credited for what items they get. Lalum needs a boost for getting a Silver Sword and Silver Lance, as does Elphin. Lilina needs a slight boost for getting you a Devil Axe, Steel Axe, and Hand Axe. It all needs to be taken into account if Sophia gets credit for that Guiding Ring.

Just because they might get credit for those doesn't suddenly mean they'll shoot up. For example, Lalum/Elphin get those Silver weapons in 15 and they're buyable in 17 anyway on Sacae. On either route Killer weapons are also already available, as well as one of each Silver weapon having been acquired earlier in the game. In the end, getting those weapons doesn't actually have a big impact.

As for Lilina, the Steel Axe and Hand Axe are virtually useless to her case for what should be obvious reasons and Devil Axe is only really good for raising weapon levels fast, but somehow I don't see it having a large enough impact to make Lilina much better.

[Inference]

Wendy can be raised to promotion.

Not as easily as Sophia. She's terrible at combat, she doesn't have reliable 1-2 range weapons, and she doesn't get anything upon promotion to make here anywhere near as useful as Sophia is with staves.

She is worse than Sophia, so she's lower on the list. Simple as that.

[Inui]

I do not understand why you people keep saying Sophia is easier to raise to promotion and that Wendy has worse Hit when it's the exact opposite as I FACTUALLY SHOWED WITH NUMBERS INSTEAD JUST HATING ON WENDY.

Jesus Christ, guys. Get your acts together. Sure, Wendy's Hit with a Javelin is ayuss when Sophia joins, but it was actually much better than Sophia's Hit for the time Wendy joined, and she can actually work her way to 10/0 and then promote to stop being ultra horrible. Sophia has horrendous Hit and durability that is much worse than Wendy's when she joins.

That's a completely different argument. Sophia's Guiding Ring is more closer to the Thieves stealing something than recruitment. Those contributions belong to Percival, Gonzales, and Gerret respectively.

Nope. They have to be talked to by those units or else their inventories never get added to yours.

Well, time to boost Louise on the FE 7 tier list for joining with a White Gem.

Double post...my bad. >_>;

Edited March 9, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Colonel M]

I do not see it logically possible for Wendy to be Level 10 when she has 4 Mov on top of this and to do more than 5 damage she needs a Steel Lance which weighs her down to be doubled by just about everything on the map in Western Isles.

Nope. They have to be talked to by those units or else their inventories never get added to yours.

So? She finds the item, not actually "recruits a unit to get it". It's exactly like a Thief stealing an item, only she's the only unit to actually find the damned thing.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Dat Nick]

I do not understand why you people keep saying Sophia is easier to raise to promotion and that Wendy has worse Hit when it's the exact opposite as I FACTUALLY SHOWED WITH NUMBERS INSTEAD JUST HATING ON WENDY.

Actually, WE disproved your numbers and you keep whining about how yours are better and how I KANT TRAIN SOPHIA BUH I CAN TRAIN WENDY. I've stopped taking you seriously for a reason.

Sure, Wendy's Hit with a Javelin is ayuss when Sophia joins, but it was actually much better than Sophia's Hit for the time Wendy joined

It's 50-ish hit rates vs 50-ish hit rates. And Sophia can actually do more than prick the opponent's finger.

Sophia has horrendous Hit and durability that is much worse than Wendy's when she joins.

Wendy can not get ORKOd by everything for just 8 and maybe 8x and then that's it. Everything on the isles onwards kills her by looking at her.

[Inui]

I do not see it logically possible for Wendy to be Level 10 when she has 4 Mov on top of this and to do more than 5 damage she needs a Steel Lance which weighs her down to be doubled by just about everything on the map in Western Isles.

Wendy joins with 79 Hit with Iron and 64 with a Javelin, with 11 and 10 Atk respectively. Even with the Javelin, she's got more than 50 Hit against loldiers, which are plentiful. She has about 60-65 on Steel Bow Archers with Iron. Loldiers only have 2 Def and Archers have a bit more but also less HP. None of those enemies double her at all.

In the next chapter, there are Mercs. Even if the Mercs are rockin' 30 Evd, she has 46 Hit with a Javelin. Just tossing Javelins here and there and poking things with Slim/Iron like loldiers and Archers lets her gain EXP and weapon levels. She can eventually use an Axereaver.

When Sophia joins, she has 75 Hit with her most accurate weapon against enemies with double the avoid of the ones Wendy was facing. Even if she attacks a 40 Evd Merc from afar, she's got very shitty Hit on it. 35? Yeah, GL w/ that Sophia. She can walk up to an Archer up close and have like 45-50 Hit, while Wendy could do the same earlier with 60-65 Hit.

This isn't BS. It's fact.

So? She finds the item, not actually "recruits a unit to get it". It's exactly like a Thief stealing an item, only she's the only unit to actually find the damned thing.

That's convenient. And that's all that argument is.

Sophia moves to a spot and finds an item. She is the only one who can do this. She doesn't need to be used in combat or as a real unit ever to do this.

Lalum moves to Percival and selects an option to recruit him. Same as above.

What is the fundamental difference here? I see none. It's just "well, shit, counting recruitment fucks up our tier list a lot, so let's not, and say finding an item is like a thief finding it because it's convenient." The same thing is being done in each case...except Lalum actually has to select a command to do it, making it more similar to thief work than just walking somewhere.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wendy joins with 79 Hit with Iron and 64 with a Javelin, with 11 and 10 Atk respectively. Even with the Javelin, she's got more than 50 Hit against loldiers.

Do tell, which loldiers? Because if you're referring to the ones in Chapter 8, it's quite doubtful that she'll even reach a single one.

[Inui]

Do tell, which loldiers? Because if you're referring to the ones in Chapter 8, it's quite doubtful that she'll even reach a single one.

She joins very close to one and then there are two more, as well as Archers, nearby. Then reinforcement Mercs/Archers show up where she joined and she can camp with a Javelin behind someone that won't die.

I just loaded a save of where she joins and Marcus and Zealot are nearby but still not close enough to kill everything before she can take a few shots.

[Colonel M]

Wendy joins with 79 Hit with Iron and 64 with a Javelin, with 11 and 10 Atk respectively. Even with the Javelin, she's got more than 50 Hit against loldiers, which are plentiful. She has about 60-65 on Steel Bow Archers with Iron. Loldiers only have 2 Def and Archers have a bit more but also less HP. None of those enemies double her at all.

Okay, she can hit the units. Wonderful. Now we have two big problems:

- Getting to the enemies

- Actually doing damage to them that's accurate.

Most of the team is ORKOing loldiers anyway. Archers, if they can't double Wendy, must have about 6 AS tops. She can't counterattack with the Javelin because she gets doubled, so she has to move up close. Their 5 Def makes Wendy do 3 damage with Slim. ... 12 Dieck has 12 Atk with his A Lot support and Iron Sword. That does 14 damage. Steel Sword adds 3 Atk. That does 20 damage. Iron Blade adds one more. That does 22. So Wendy can't kill them unless she wields Steel Lance, which rocks a whopping 69 Hit against the Archer's 17 Avoid. This means she has a 52% Chance to Hit, and she requires a unit to trade with her or she's getting doubled by non Soldiers / Armor Knights. She can't dent Armor Knights, which IIRC consist of a lot of the map here as well. Mages double and ORKO her.

So it's hard to even get her to reliably kill an Archer unless you seriously are telling me we're going to field Bors as well (the Triangle gives her 100% accuracy) but then I'd just laugh my ass off completely because fielding Bors is like trying to make a rock float in water.

In the next chapter, there are Mercs. Even if the Mercs are rockin' 30 Evd, she has 46 Hit with a Javelin. Just tossing Javelins here and there and poking things with Slim/Iron like loldiers and Archers lets her gain EXP and weapon levels. She can eventually use an Axereaver.

She needs 50 Hits, or 25 Kills, to even hit C Lances. To do this in two chapters is nigh impossible. Not to mention Chapter 8X has two things. One, it has Mages and Fighters. I don't need to re-state that Mages ORKO her. The Fighters I am not sure about their equipment, but if they wield Iron / Hand Axe she's as good as dead. She also damages the Mercenary for 5 damage with the Javelin... not to mention this little rule that I made specifically for a reason:

I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them.

When Sophia joins, she has 75 Hit with her most accurate weapon against enemies with double the avoid of the ones Wendy was facing. Even if she attacks a 40 Evd Merc from afar, she's got very shitty Hit on it. 35? Yeah, GL w/ that Sophia. She can walk up to an Archer up close and have like 45-50 Hit, while Wendy could do the same earlier with 60-65 Hit.

Sophia has 75 Hit with Flux. Mages have 30 Avoid in the desert. That's 55 Hit. Sophia has 33% Displayed on unstoppable Mercenaries. She has 39% Displayed on non-weighed Brigands. Those with Steel Axe she has 52% Displayed. Dragon Riders with Steel she has 51% Displayed. Seriously, it's a waste of goddamn time raising either one of these units.

With 2 range on top of it, which means her attacking is only a liability if the enemy wields a 2 range weapon. With Wendy, it's either tickling the enemy with a Javelin or whiffing in general. Not to mention Sophia has full Mov in the desert, which makes positioning her a bit easier than Wendy as is.

This isn't BS. It's fact.

The day Wendy actually is 10/1 is the day Percival is a Bottom Tier unit.

That's convenient. And that's all that argument is.

Sophia moves to a spot and finds an item. She is the only one who can do this. She doesn't need to be used in combat or as a real unit ever to do this.

She's being used as a real unit in that chapter.

Lalum moves to Percival and selects an option to recruit him. Same as above.

What is the fundamental difference here? I see none. It's just "well, shit, counting recruitment fucks up our tier list a lot, so let's not, and say finding an item is like a thief finding it because it's convenient." The same thing is being done in each case...except Lalum actually has to select a command to do it, making it more similar to thief work than just walking somewhere.

So are we going to sandbag Thieves because they have to select a command to get an item, or are we going to start comparing Thieving to recruiting a character?

Edited March 9, 2010 by Tyranel M