FE6 HM Tier List

[Inui]

You have failed to point out the difference between Sophia walking in a spot and picking up a Guiding Ring and Lalum talking to Percival to get him as a unit and his starting inventory, which is quite valuable.

[Colonel M]

Again, the only thing the Guiding Ring does is act as a tie breaker against Sophia vs. Wendy. That's it.

[dondon151]

You have failed to point out the difference between Sophia walking in a spot and picking up a Guiding Ring and Lalum talking to Percival to get him as a unit and his starting inventory, which is quite valuable.

Well, I have. Refer back to the Priscilla and Raven debacle in the FE7 topic.

[frat_tastic]

If the guiding ring is only worth as much as a being a tie-breaker, then I certainly fail to see the merit in having Sofia a tier above Wendy.

[Colonel M]

If the guiding ring is only worth as much as a being a tie-breaker, then I certainly fail to see the merit in having Sofia a tier above Wendy.

Which I wasn't going to buy any day of the week (I apologize Bb, but seriously I just can't).

Not to say that I'm banning this sort of discussion, but can we just please move onto something more logical? I'm not really amused being sidetracked by random potshots at me and the tier list (or even the rules, which I even stated that the community is free to help hammer the guidelines more), and to be honest I hate making Thunderman do a lot of work around here just to clean up (he has better things to do).

[Ardan]

nah, better not

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ardan

[Dat Nick]

Which I wasn't going to buy any day of the week (I apologize Bb, but seriously I just can't).

In spite of frat_tastic's terrible logic that assumes assloads of EXP falls right into Wendy's lap?

[Colonel M]

In spite of frat_tastic's terrible logic that assumes assloads of EXP falls right into Wendy's lap?

Both are never going to be used as serious units. Again, there is a major difference between using a unit such as Ward and using a unit such as Sophia. Using someone such as Ward can award him moments where he has positive contributions to efficiency while Sophia's only real contribution is an item that she can find in the desert and, yeah, being free for the chapter.

A better question to ask yourself is if a person is seriously ever going to field one of Wendy or Sophia after their join chapter. The answer is pretty obvious. I never assumed that she would be getting any amount of CEXP, etc, because using both as long-term units is completely inefficient whatsoever.

[Dat Nick]

Both are never going to be used as serious units.

Walt and Dorothy are never going to be used as serious units. Let's be silly in tiering them, too.

because using both as long-term units is completely inefficient whatsoever.

It's two completely different degrees of inefficient, seeing as how it's actually possible for Sophia to kill things.

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[Colonel M]

Walt and Dorothy are never going to be used as serious units. Let's be silly in tiering them, too.

To be honest, it's almost how they are tiered atm, though supposedly Dorothy is over Walt. That should probably change though because Dorothy's lolbases for an Archer (11 Atk is not funny with Iron, we just passed that crap with Roy long ago), though maybe she can be used as a serious unit? I dunno, I've never touched Dorothy with a 10 foot Poleaxe and really wouldn't plan to after looking at her bases. Yeah her growths are good, but she can only milk EXP from one phase in general, and I wouldn't advocate for her to have rights for it all the time.

It's almost like asking when Wendy will hit 10/0 (though to be honest who the fuck cares when she hits that), but it takes about a Level 12 Dorothy to double Steel Axe Fighters in Western Isles. Compare this to Walt's 14, and he joined earlier to be honest.

It's two completely different degrees of inefficient, seeing as how it's actually possible for Sophia to kill things.

Inui already demonstrated how much garbage Wendy is at jointime.

Sophia has 75 Hit with Flux. Mages have 30 Avoid in the desert. That's 55 Hit. Sophia has 33% Displayed on unstoppable Mercenaries. She has 39% Displayed on non-weighed Brigands. Those with Steel Axe she has 52% Displayed. Dragon Riders with Steel she has 51% Displayed. Seriously, it's a waste of goddamn time raising either one of these units.

[Inui]

Again, the only thing the Guiding Ring does is act as a tie breaker against Sophia vs. Wendy. That's it.

Wendy is better.

Well, I have. Refer back to the Priscilla and Raven debacle in the FE7 topic.

You have? So...what's the difference between Lalum chatting with Percival to obtain him and his inventory and Sophia walking to a spot to pick up an item?

[Rewjeo]

How is it a tie-breaker? Sophia is clearly better than Wendy even without it. Yeah, they're both crap, but Wendy would need to grab TEN battles per chapter even assuming enemies were much higher leveled and she could grab kills consistently just to COMPARE to Sophia's offense. Now imagine how hard it is to get her to 11/0 by chapter 14 when she CAN'T kill easily and ISN'T facing really high levelled units. That's a lot of negative right there, and she can't even claim that she really beats Sophia for it.

I agree that the Guiding Ring shouldn't count.

[Inui]

How is it a tie-breaker? Sophia is clearly better than Wendy even without it. Yeah, they're both crap, but Wendy would need to grab TEN battles per chapter even assuming enemies were much higher leveled and she could grab kills consistently just to COMPARE to Sophia's offense. Now imagine how hard it is to get her to 11/0 by chapter 14 when she CAN'T kill easily and ISN'T facing really high levelled units. That's a lot of negative right there, and she can't even claim that she really beats Sophia for it.

That is assuming you are forcing Javelins on Wendy, which isn't fair. She has the option to hit Archers up close with better weapons. She has the option to use an Axereaver to finish off a Fighter/Brigand. She has the option to use Slim/Iron to finish off anything else. Wendy can simply take shots at enemies with Javelins and score the occasional kill and still be raping Sophia when she joins. You can say Wendy is doing nothing but adding negative, but she's really not as long as she's hitting stuff, and she can actually hit enemies. What, pray tell, is Sophia ever hitting in order to gain EXP to eventually promote? She is incapable of hitting enemies consistently to gain more than 1 EXP per turn, lol.

It's not hard at all for Wendy to putz around and score a few hits per map with one or two kills to get to 11/0 by the time Sophia joins. You know what that means? Wendy can just not be used in the desert and not be used when Ohtz kills her in like one hit...which also happens to Sophia. Then we go into Chapter 15, where Wendy is still terribad, but Sophia is even worse since she can't hit things. Wendy will have 7 AS, which is not doubled by the army of weighed down Cavaliers. She can rape them with a Horseslayer or just actually hit them with Iron/Slim to gain EXP while Sophia's Hit on them is always really bad and they all kill her in one hit and have high attack ranges. Wendy can then do next to nothing Chapter 16 and gain like one or two levels at most.

Okay then. 13/0 Wendy. What can happen now?

13/1 General

HP: 33.2

Str: 12.8

Skl: 9.8

Spd: 11.8

Lck: 11.4

Def: 14.6

Res: 5.2

While Sophia....... How did she gain EXP with under 50 Hit on everything again? How does she ever reach the point of salvation where she can promote and become a staff user and get some stat boosts? Wendy's not unusable. This Wendy can actually enter Ilia with axes and be durable against the Pegs or enter the Nomad hurricanes of Sacae with 15-16 Def by then and be fine if a few attack her.

Wendy could have built some supports with someone while existing, too. Sure, Lolina, Oujay, Bors, and Barth are kinda bad, but it's not like they are never ever in play...

I agree that the Guiding Ring shouldn't count.

Thank you.

[Rewjeo]

Well, let's just assume that enemies are 5-7 levels higher than her on average and that she averages 70 true hit (which I doubt) then she gets 12 experience per hit and ~32 per kill. Let's say she kills 10% of the time (3.2 EXP) hits normally 60% (7.2 DXP) and misses 30% (.3 EXP) for an average of 10.5 EXP per battle. In order for her to get to 1200 experience in ~6.5 chapters, she needs to get ~184.6 experience per chapter, or about 17.6 battles per chapter. There is no way for her to reasonably get this. Even if we glue our dancer to her (which is a negative since she's taking it away from others) she won't get two battles every turn since she won't always be able to reach two with lol4 movement, and she might need the dancer just to reach one at all. That means that she slows us down just to get her to that level, or that she's actually worse than an empty slot. And she's again that bad come chapter 14 since loldesert.

Not only that, but you assume that she gets a knight crest now, too. There are only two available at this point, with possibly another for chapter 16. That means that, for chapter 14+15 at least, she's taking a knight crest away from either Alan or Lance (probably). Now, for the chapter 16 one, there's also Noah, Treck, Barth, and Bors who could all potentially be in play who'd ALSO want one. So the earliest likely chance for her to promote would be the beginning of chapter 16 if she's lucky, or part way through/chapter 17 if she can grab that one there. Sophia, on the other hand, has greater EXP gain as well as better damage and better hit if they're both attacking from a distance. And she DIDN'T require us to "shoot ourselves in the foot" to get there.

Edit: Fixed something. I accidentally said that Wendy was averaging SEVEN true hit when I meant sevenTY.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slize

[dondon151]

You have? So...what's the difference between Lalum chatting with Percival to obtain him and his inventory and Sophia walking to a spot to pick up an item?

Because the unit on the list is Lalum, not Lalum + Percival. Percival is already on the list, so you can't double count him by putting him there twice (Percival and Lalum + Percival). Items aren't tiered; they are inherently attributed to units based on how they're obtained and how they're used.

[grandjackal]

To talk about the archer issue, it depends on what level they would be by the time you get the Orion's Bolt. If Walt were to be level 14 as Colonel seems to wish...

14/1 Walt-31.4 HP, 12.2 Str, 13.5 Skill, 12.2 Speed, 7.2 Luck, 8.6 Def, 3.3 Res

Growths: 80% HP, 40% Str, 50% Skill, 40% Speed, 40% Luck, 20% Def, 10% Res. 8 Con

Then 12 for Dorothy

12/1 Dorth-28.65 HP, 12.5 Str, 13.05 Skill, 13.05 Speed, 6.85 Luck, 7.35 Def, 6.35 Res

Growths: 85% HP, 50% Str, 45% Skill, 45% Speed, 35% Luck, 15% Def, 15% Res. 8 Con

Now here's the problem.

Base Klein-32.85 HP, 15.7 Str, 15.7 Skill, 12.8 Speed, 12.7 Luck, 9.35 Def, 7.35 Res

Growths: 60% HP, 35% Str, 40% Skill, 45% Speed, 50% Luck, 15% Def, 25% Res. 7 Con

How exactly can they beat Klein when Klein comes free and is pretty much better? He's always going to win offense on Walt, what can Walt respond with? Dorothy's only win is 1 more speed and possible supports to close the Str gap thanks to her fire affinity. That would be great, if any came in that were...Good. Saul's her only fast one, and it's Ice. At B, the difference in might is 2 Str still in Klein's favor. Her others are Shin (1+1, Ice), Percival (1+1, Darkness) and Yodel (lol). You could claim that though she's not as hard hitting as Klein, she'd be doubling a bit mroe often and helping another unit perform better...But Klein's presence helps greatly with two others, Clarine and Tate. An advantage both have over Klein is that they have more Con.

It's still hard to justify using them seriously when Klein just sort of shows up free of charge. I think he might even have Bow rank on them if they can't get to A rank through promotion, which means more Silver access for him.

This is considering best situation levels. If it turns out under efficient standards hte archers could never hope to obtain such levels, them being used seriously is a dream, and a crappy one at that. If they could? Statistically they lose, it comes down to supports. Walt's best bet is he got that C with Roy and is helping Marcus get tougher, Dorothy's only got Saul. Klein has hyperdrive speed supports with two units that would really really love his affinity.

[Inui]

Well, let's just assume that enemies are 5-7 levels higher than her on average and that she averages 70 true hit (which I doubt) then she gets 12 experience per hit and ~32 per kill. Let's say she kills 10% of the time (3.2 EXP) hits normally 60% (7.2 DXP) and misses 30% (.3 EXP) for an average of 10.5 EXP per battle. In order for her to get to 1200 experience in ~6.5 chapters, she needs to get ~184.6 experience per chapter, or about 17.6 battles per chapter. There is no way for her to reasonably get this. Even if we glue our dancer to her (which is a negative since she's taking it away from others) she won't get two battles every turn since she won't always be able to reach two with lol4 movement, and she might need the dancer just to reach one at all. That means that she slows us down just to get her to that level, or that she's actually worse than an empty slot. And she's again that bad come chapter 14 since loldesert.

Not only that, but you assume that she gets a knight crest now, too. There are only two available at this point, with possibly another for chapter 16. That means that, for chapter 14+15 at least, she's taking a knight crest away from either Alan or Lance (probably). Now, for the chapter 16 one, there's also Noah, Treck, Barth, and Bors who could all potentially be in play who'd ALSO want one. So the earliest likely chance for her to promote would be the beginning of chapter 16 if she's lucky, or part way through/chapter 17 if she can grab that one there. Sophia, on the other hand, has greater EXP gain as well as better damage and better hit if they're both attacking from a distance. And she DIDN'T require us to "shoot ourselves in the foot" to get there.

Edit: Fixed something. I accidentally said that Wendy was averaging SEVEN true hit when I meant sevenTY.

Um... I have her promoting in Chapter 16 after you get a ton of promotional items, dude. You may want to redo your numbers based on that. I thought I made it pretty clear that she's 13/0 towards the end of Chapter 16 and then promoting, while Sophia can't really gain EXP.

Because the unit on the list is Lalum, not Lalum + Percival. Percival is already on the list, so you can't double count him by putting him there twice (Percival and Lalum + Percival). Items aren't tiered; they are inherently attributed to units based on how they're obtained and how they're used.

This addresses my point...how?

How do you get what Percival is carrying and the unit Percival himself? You talk to him with Lalum. Can this be done any other way? No, it can't. There is no other way to obtain Percival's valuable starting inventory and the Knight Crest he gets from his men surviving other than chatting with him with Lalum.

How do you get the Guiding Ring? Sophia walks to a spot and magically picks it up. She never has to attack to get it or actually be used as a unit for anything. She gives no utility as a unit whatsoever.

[Florete]

She has the option to use an Axereaver to finish off a Fighter/Brigand.

No, she doesn't. Can you figure out why? Lance rank is too low.

How do you get what Percival is carrying and the unit Percival himself? You talk to him with Lalum. Can this be done any other way? No, it can't. There is no other way to obtain Percival's valuable starting inventory and the Knight Crest he gets from his men surviving other than chatting with him with Lalum.

How do you get the Guiding Ring? Sophia walks to a spot and magically picks it up. She never has to attack to get it or actually be used as a unit for anything. She gives no utility as a unit whatsoever.

As soon as you get Percival, everything he does is now attributed to him because he's tiered on the list. Guiding Ring is not tiered, so Sophia gets credit for getting us that. This seems more like something that will need to be an accepted rule of tiering rather than a logical, agreed upon conclusion to me.

I would say you can credit Lalum for Percival's starting inventory, though. I like to think Dart can be credited for getting a Steel Bow and Killer Axe in the same fashion.

[dondon151]

This addresses my point...how?

It addresses your point perfectly. A unit only gets credit for himself and the items that he obtains or uses, not for other units, because other units are already represented on the tier list.

Not attributing items to characters implies that it makes no difference towards game completion whether those items are obtained or not. But we all know that it does make a difference. Furthermore, items on their own are not accounted for on the tier list (if we tiered the Silver Card, then Matthew's position in the FE7 list would probably drop), but units are, and they can't be double counted. If we treated the entire tier list as the equivalent of the game's GDP, we can't do an accurate representation if we double-count every character that requires another character to recruit. Either we separate them or remove their individual versions completely. So Lalum, Echidna, and Percival would not be able to exist separately on the list; they would exist as Lalum + Echidna + Percival. Likewise, Roy would exist as something like Roy + Clarine + Rutger + Klein + Tate + Zealot + Treck + Noah + Fir + Sue + Shin + Dayan + Geese + Bartre + Cath + Hugh + Karel.

Edited March 8, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

So it's okay with you guys to give Sophia full credit for picking up and item in the sand, but it's not okay to give full credit to Lalum for getting the starting inventory of Percival and Echidna, Roy getting you the starting inventory of a bajillion units, etc.?

[Narga_Rocks]

It addresses your point perfectly. A unit only gets credit for himself and the items that he obtains or uses, not for other units, because other units are already represented on the tier list.

Not attributing items to characters implies that it makes no difference towards game completion whether those items are obtained or not. But we all know that it does make a difference. Furthermore, items on their own are not accounted for on the tier list (if we tiered the Silver Card, then Matthew's position in the FE7 list would probably drop), but units are, and they can't be double counted. If we treated the entire tier list as the equivalent of the game's GDP, we can't do an accurate representation if we double-count every character that requires another character to recruit. Either we separate them or remove their individual versions completely. So Lalum, Echidna, and Percival would not be able to exist separately on the list; they would exist as Lalum + Echidna + Percival. Likewise, Roy would exist as something like Roy + Clarine + Rutger + Klein + Tate + Zealot + Treck + Noah + Fir + Sue + Shin + Dayan + Geese + Bartre + Cath + Hugh + Karel.

Would you really want to give Roy credit for the Clarine chain? She recruits herself and Roy must exist otherwise the game is over. You could give partial credit to all your other units for leaving one of Roy's facings open, but it's not like Roy goes and talks to her. She (and everyone she recruits or is recruited by a unit she recruits) is the exception to your rule, though. Now, under those assumptions the rest of those units still become the Roy entity, but Rutger and Klein are part of the Clarine entity. Tate can either be part of the Thany entity or the Clarine entity, so I'm not sure what you should do with her. Stick half of her in each group, possibly?

As for everyone getting credit for the items being held by whomever they recruit, you could go either way on that one. It's still technically different from the guiding ring, though. I'll elaborate if necessary on how it is different, but they certainly can't be equated as if they are the same thing. There are similarities, yes, but it isn't the same.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Rewjeo]

Okay, so now she only needs to enter FIFTEEN per chapter (assuming no chapter 14)

So much better.

And if you're going to do that for Wendy, let's see how Sophia does: Assume enemies are 14 levels higher than her: she gets 15 EXP per hit (We'll say ~40% of the time, so 6 there) SEVENTY-SEVEN (if I didn't mess that up) experience from a kill (say, only 5% of the time, so 3.85 there) and .55 for the 55% of the time she misses. So, on average, she gets 10.4 per battle. .1 less than Wendy. Sophia can't level up, but Wendy can? So, give her 45 battles, she's at level 5, potentially level 6 if you feed her one more kill. So, at this rate, she can promote by chapter 20. Wendy wins for a few chapters AFTER losing horribly for, what, 7.5 where Sophia's neutral then one where Sophia's actually a positive (forced on chapter 14) and two more where she's about equal. And then Sophia promotes and grabs staves. I'm not seeing a huge advantage, but I'm seeing Sophia as just slightly better than Wendy.

[frat_tastic]

Sofia does join with only 15 HP, 2 AS and 1 DEF. She does indeed have 1-2 range to help make up for it, but if anything gets to her, she's dead. She should literally be getting one rounded by everything if they manage to attack her.

EDIT: Not to say I think Wendy's better. If they both joined in the same chapter then yeah, Wendy might be better, but Wendy's been sucking hard for a while now while Sofia has been happily not existing. My only beef earlier was with the notion of putting Sofia a tier above Wendy.

Edited March 8, 2010 by frat_tastic

[CATS]

If you hold a low tier unit's performance against it during a time period where the unit's competition does not exist, then low tier comparisons are likely to turn into an availability contest similar to the gross system, but in reverse. The unit with less availability wins almost by default.

[Rewjeo]

I wouldn't hold it against her if Inui was arguing that Wendy was just making potshots, but he's arguing that she's leveling quickly, and doing that is a huge negative since it requires you take a lot longer than you normally would.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slize