Paladins

[Junkhead]

Well, Zealot's usefulness throughout those parts is true...I mean, it's just that you are going to be wanting to deploy units that you want to to train so they become better. Just replace him with Marcus, yep.

[Inui]

lol, efficiency

okay then, Noish should be above almost everyone that doesn't have a horse, making him even better than I thought, and definitely not bad

also, Zealot is a beast. upper mid imo.

[Colonel M]

Well, Zealot's usefulness throughout those parts is true...I mean, it's just that you are going to be wanting to deploy units that you want to to train so they become better. Just replace him with Marcus, yep.

You can use both just fine. It doesn't really cost you much CEXP when in the end they are saving you a good amount of turns. Zealot's 13 Spd base guarantees him doubling the Steel Axe Fighters throughout the Isles with a Steel Sword. It just sucks that Iron Blade knocks him down to 12 AS, then Steel Blade knocks him down to 10. The good news is some Fighters have 6 AS anyway (with the Steel Axe equipped), so it's possible for Zealot to ORKO when asked. With the Steel Sword, he weakens them enough to the point where the rest of the team (that doesn't have shitty units).

Marcus and Zealot are very useful, up to at least 12X, Chapter 13 being the latest I'd field both.

[Junkhead]

Oh, I certainly didn't look at his bases thinking he had 10 base Spd, silly me. =P

That's actually pretty good. It's his Str that's mediocre.

[Inui]

If Zealot had good Str, I'd field him for the whole game.

[Junkhead]

His Spd and Skill will start sucking, don't forget that, his Luck is pretty much crap also, it isn't helping his Avo.

His Def and Str growths should've been switched.

[Narga_Rocks]

If Zealot had good Str, I'd field him for the whole game.

Why? He'd still only have a 20% spd growth with a base of 13.

[Inui]

That carries him a long way, surprisingly. Horrendous Atk and Hit seem to be what kills him when I try to field him later, and Hit can be remedied with all of his supports giving him Hit. Zealot with like 15 base Str and a 40% growth or something? Hax. It'd make using Treck, Zealot, and Noah together actually kinda good.

[Colonel M]

Zealot's Str is sufficient enough for the duration that he is fielded (I don't want to use the word necessary). 21 Atk, or 22 with WTA. This is factoring the Steel Blade. Against a Fighter with 34 HP | 5 Def. Zealot can cleanly ORKO the Fighter.

Here he is, smiling in the camera for ya. Unfortunately, he can't double with the Steel Blade all the time. Still, his 13 AS with the Steel Sword can double the Hand Axe Fighters sufficiently (until you reach those with 11 Spd base). These guys USUALLY don't come until Chapter 11, but you might see it in Chapter 10 on a very rare occasion.

[Junkhead]

Treck is pretty good actually. His only down is his Spd, his Skill isn't that bad, he is a pretty great option for a Speedwings.

[Narga_Rocks]

That carries him a long way, surprisingly. Horrendous Atk and Hit seem to be what kills him when I try to field him later, and Hit can be remedied with all of his supports giving him Hit. Zealot with like 15 base Str and a 40% growth or something? Hax. It'd make using Treck, Zealot, and Noah together actually kinda good.

Well, if nothing else I'd drop him before sacae. I suppose I don't know what spd the steel lance pegs have in ilia but I suppose he can double them. There are enough steel axe users along the way that he can probably get them, but the mercs are beyond hope.

[Colonel M]

Well, if nothing else I'd drop him before sacae. I suppose I don't know what spd the steel lance pegs have in ilia but I suppose he can double them. There are enough steel axe users along the way that he can probably get them, but the mercs are beyond hope.

They should have about 11 AS IIRC. They might be able to peak over that or even go under, but Zealot should be able to double them over time. It kind of sucks that all he has is Killer Lances though, since C Axes is a bit rough to assume at that point. I'd still drop Zealot by Chapter 14. 14X's Poison Axe Pirates can have 13 AS base (this is fucking crazy). Chapter 15 I guess he can Horseslayer stuff. Chapter 16 Percival sort of arrives to shitstomp him. Not to mention 13 Spd is very rough even at this point. It'll likely be 14, which should at least keep his AS high enough to use the Hammer against the Armor Knights. Still, to add insult to the injury the Armor Knights can carry Horseslayer. Eep.

Treck is pretty good actually. His only down is his Spd, his Skill isn't that bad, he is a pretty great option for a Speedwings.

Treck is decent in Chapters 7 and 8. Chapter 8X you have to kind of remember with the Iron Axe Fighters that they're naturally fast anyway. Then you look at Chapter 9... yeah. He does "okay", I guess, versus the Steel Axe anything since their AS might be low enough for him (there's still 8 Spd Steel Fighters, so there's hope for him). It just sucks that all he has is the Iron Sword to make up for it. 15 Atk is pretty awful when you have other units that can easily surpass that. He would need 11 Spd to consistently double within the Isles against the Steel Axe Fighters, which isn't happening until Level 15-16. Pretty hard to assume for him by Chapter 11, wouldn't you say?

Edited April 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

Treck has a Spd problem?

Zealot is very durable in Sacae if he's not doubled. He actually has good HP and Def. His problem is that he can't hit the enemies. He's fine in Ilia, though.

If Mercs double him, he's in trouble, but as long as he hits 15-16 Spd, he shouldn't be doubled.

[_____]

lol, efficiency

At least for FE4, Efficiency is basically Ranked but without the retarded EXP rank that forces you to go out of your way and savestate/in-game save abuse all of your units up to level 30.

It is much more similar to a normal playthrough of the game than Ranked is, which makes it more accurate at tiering how a unit actually performs, instead of giving brownie points to whomever can gain the most levels and beat the arena the most.

okay then, Noish should be above almost everyone that doesn't have a horse, making him even better than I thought, and definitely not bad

Did you just miss the paragraph I wrote explaining why Noish is easily one of the worst characters in the game, or are you choosing to ignore it? Either way, go back and read it and stop making general statements that contradict it without any reasoning that isn't "lolhehasahorse".

[Inui]

I read it.

It still doesn't change the fact that he has a horse and get to enemies and places while the units without horses can't, or at least they do so several turns after he can. He may lack Pursuit, but it's ideal to give him the Knight Killer and other such things since he'll OHKO.

It doesn't really matter if units like Ayra and Jamuka rape him in stats if he gets to the battle three turns before them.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Unless you're doing a Sigurd Solo where Sigurd gets all the items beneficial to him and is completely over-leveled or abuse the RNG, foot units aren't always beaten to the enemy so much that they can't ever attack which is what you're implying whether you intend to or not.

Thanks to the enemy density and dancers, foot units do have a good chance to attack unless we're talking high priests and generals in the lategame. Hell, the main thing Noish's mount should be doing is keeping him from low tier since he's at least able to provide chip damage and this is already the case.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Speedwagon

[_____]

I read it.

It still doesn't change the fact that he has a horse and get to enemies and places while the units without horses can't, or at least they do so several turns after he can. He may lack Pursuit, but it's ideal to give him the Knight Killer and other such things since he'll OHKO.

It doesn't really matter if units like Ayra and Jamuka rape him in stats if he gets to the battle three turns before them.

Such as...? Azel? Noish is above him. Holyn? Ayra? Jamka? The only time this seems relevant would be Chapter 2, since Sylvia isn't there. Everyone is either split between the Cross Knights and waiting to slaughter the pirates in Chapter 3 unless they are warped, which foot units can take advantage of, too. Chapter 4 is almost entirely forest and mountain, and Chapter 5 has enemy units converging on you from every position, followed by Levin, Sigurd, and Fury destroying everything in the desert.

Mounts are cool. I like mounts. Mounts mean a lot. Mounts do not get you auto-Mid.

Even ignoring that, getting to the battle more quickly to pull off a potshot or two and then canto away really doesn't benefit us much at all. I'd rather have units like Ayra and Holyn run in and clean up any remaining units if we're just zerg rushing with mounted units than have Noish around to help someone like Alec or Cuan OHKO.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

Treck has a Spd problem?

I'm just stunned by this statement. I would ask for numbers, but you'd probably give me overinflated levels. I'll just lay this out there.

Treck needs to be 20/1 to actually get to 13 AS (it's 14, but he can't hit 13 speed unpromoted). This is Zealot's base. Bythe time Treck actually gets to this level, 14 AS stopped being good ages ago. He starts with E swords, and his 7 AS doesn't double freaking steel pirates in chapter 9 unless he somehow managed to get 6 levels, and that's just the slowest thing on the map. Enemies only get hardier from there, and he again will have problems doubling.

How does this man NOT have speed problems?

Zealot is very durable in Sacae if he's not doubled. He actually has good HP and Def. His problem is that he can't hit the enemies. He's fine in Ilia, though.

Enjoy your below 50 displayed accuracy on the counter and having 12 crit on Zealt while he gets doubled.

Ilia? Enjoy being one of the only characters that can't ORKO these things. With axes.

If Mercs double him, he's in trouble, but as long as he hits 15-16 Spd, he shouldn't be doubled.

Yeah, if he just all of a sudden gains 10 levels...

I read it.

It still doesn't change the fact that he has a horse and get to enemies and places while the units without horses can't, or at least they do so several turns after he can. He may lack Pursuit, but it's ideal to give him the Knight Killer and other such things since he'll OHKO.

It doesn't really matter if units like Ayra and Jamuka rape him in stats if he gets to the battle three turns before them.

If Noish is fighting towards the northern fort, who's fighting Clement? If Noish is charging Marino, who's fighting hte cross knights? If Noish is charging hte north Sylesia fort, who's charging the southern portion of the map? Horse or no, he can't be at two places at once, and I would prefer said units decimating these areas over Noish doing janitorial work for the cavs that are actually busy doing the real combat work (Sigurd, Midir, Fury, Lachesis when she promotes, Fin and Cuan when they're around). That is, if they even need a janitor at this point.

Also, how is it ideal to give your most innacurate team mate (in a 1 RN game mind you) a very inaccurate weapon of which he only has one shot with, when everyone else is capable of killing just fine? Noish being your crappiest unecessary cav unit is still not going to compare to units like Ayra and Jamka who are far more clutch than Noish is when it comes to foot soldier portions (Clement and Augustria, as when charging Augustria everyone should be charging together, so Ayra and Jamka easily oveshadow him, they'd bust through the cross knights before he gets back and make busting down Silvall and Shagall far easier than Noish would, and foot soldiers taking Sylesia faster than any cav (due to mountains or the fact they're all up north) makes it faster so you can warp your units from north to south to make taking the last fort a far easier endeavor (something Noish isn't doing), and the finale Noish might as well just sit his ass in hte base.).

[Junkhead]

His problem is that he can't hit the enemies.

And that's a good thing?

[Inui]

Even ignoring that, getting to the battle more quickly to pull off a potshot or two and then canto away really doesn't benefit us much at all. I'd rather have units like Ayra and Holyn run in and clean up any remaining units if we're just zerg rushing with mounted units than have Noish around to help someone like Alec or Cuan OHKO.

Potshot or two? Go start Chapter 2 and tell me how many instances of combat he can enter before foot units can even attack anything. It's nice that Ayra and Holyn have better stats and skills, but Noish actually gets to things. It also seems like you're totally ignoring the fact that he has skills to help his offense and can use slayer weapons for OHKOs. Noish being able to rush ahead, take three hits without dying and counter in the process, and then run away and get healed before foot units even get to the battle is actually pretty handy, especially in that hard mode patch I recently played. He can absorb a few hits and counter and then Alec, Cuan, Sigurd, etc. can kill the enemies instantly and don't have any damage on them. Adding an additional mounted unit that can take hits and counter is always a good thing, and since you have no limit on deployment, Noish is always a positive, while foot units are stuck in neutral very often by lagging behind.

Even taking Sylvia into account in the end of Chapter 3 and onwards, Noish is slaughtering the foot units in mobility. Sylvia's own movement is garbage and she often lags behind as well. Also, the fact that he doesn't need Sylvia to have awesome mobility means other units get to use her more, which means Noish is creating even more positive.

I'm just stunned by this statement. I would ask for numbers, but you'd probably give me overinflated levels. I'll just lay this out there.

Treck needs to be 20/1 to actually get to 13 AS (it's 14, but he can't hit 13 speed unpromoted). This is Zealot's base. Bythe time Treck actually gets to this level, 14 AS stopped being good ages ago. He starts with E swords, and his 7 AS doesn't double freaking steel pirates in chapter 9 unless he somehow managed to get 6 levels, and that's just the slowest thing on the map. Enemies only get hardier from there, and he again will have problems doubling.

How does this man NOT have speed problems?

Levels in FE 6 are often overinflated in general. Allow me to consult my current S rank playthrough where I'm currently in the Western Isles running a nearly 50 turn surplus in Tactics. It's Chapter 12.

Roy: 12.89

Lance: 16.35

Alan: 16.14

Lugh: 16.85

Clarine: 15.51

Treck: 15.96

Noah: 15.76

Marcus: 20/5.84

Zealot: 20/4.40

Fir: 14.56

Dieck: 20/3.03

Thany: 13.46

Chad: 14.87

Astohl: 10.84

Ellen: 8.68

Saul: 7.61

Lalum: 2.52

Klein: 20/2.08

You mean to tell me that a level 13-16 Treck in the Western Isles with C Noah/C Zealot is somehow bad, and fighting a horde of axe users doesn't make his E sword rank a non-issue? Such a thing is simply ridiculous. He has 10.1 Spd at level 13, which was his level upon entering the Isles. That doubles the 5-6 AS Steel Axe Pirates/Fighters quite easily. In Chapter 12, I am seeing a large number of Fighters with 6-7 AS, and then 9 with a Hand Axe if they have it. Level 16 Treck? He's getting every single Steel Axe one easily and he has good Atk. His durability is also nearly infinite against their garbage Hit.

Treck, like most of the Cavaliers, will be waiting until the end of Chapter 16 to promote. 14.6 Spd and +2 Con await him after that. You say that's bad? I'm very certain it gets the Cavaliers and magic users in 16x and then Treck will avoid being doubled by Nomads in Sacae. Treck slaughters the Ilia Pegs (who doesn't, though?) and will be doubling the random Shamans and Archers and he won't be doubled by Mercs.

Every Cavalier/Paladin in FE 6 = mid tier or higher.

Enjoy your below 50 displayed accuracy on the counter and having 12 crit on Zealt while he gets doubled.

Zealot is horrible later on. That is obvious. I was just thinking of positives for him. The terrible Hit was mentioned, but his supports do all add Hit. His supports also all add full Crit Evd. His major issue is Atk, which he can't really fix. Zealot is very borderline when it comes to being doubled in Sacae.

Ilia? Enjoy being one of the only characters that can't ORKO these things. With axes.

Even Percival fails to OHKO Pegs with axes. What are you talking about? 6 Def and 32 HP is the absolute worst I'm seeing in Chapter 18. A unit would need to have 37 Atk with an axe to get a OHKO. But each Peg squad has Axereavers, Javelins, and Killer Lances mixed in with a Silver Lance Falco. 37 Atk? Percival with 22 Str + Silver Axe gets that, but his axe level won't be that high. Lot doesn't have the Str for it. Gonzales? That's about it.

Also, how is it ideal to give your most innacurate team mate (in a 1 RN game mind you) a very inaccurate weapon of which he only has one shot with, when everyone else is capable of killing just fine? Noish being your crappiest unecessary cav unit is still not going to compare to units like Ayra and Jamka who are far more clutch than Noish is when it comes to foot soldier portions (Clement and Augustria, as when charging Augustria everyone should be charging together, so Ayra and Jamka easily oveshadow him, they'd bust through the cross knights before he gets back and make busting down Silvall and Shagall far easier than Noish would, and foot soldiers taking Sylesia faster than any cav (due to mountains or the fact they're all up north) makes it faster so you can warp your units from north to south to make taking the last fort a far easier endeavor (something Noish isn't doing), and the finale Noish might as well just sit his ass in hte base.).

He has a lot more Atk than Alec. That's about it.

You seem to be under the impression that I think Noish is anything but mid tier. I don't. He's mid tier, around the middle or bottom of it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Even Percival fails to OHKO Pegs with axes. What are you talking about? 6 Def and 32 HP is the absolute worst I'm seeing in Chapter 18. A unit would need to have 37 Atk with an axe to get a OHKO. But each Peg squad has Axereavers, Javelins, and Killer Lances mixed in with a Silver Lance Falco. 37 Atk? Percival with 22 Str + Silver Axe gets that, but his axe level won't be that high. Lot doesn't have the Str for it. Gonzales? That's about it.

ORKO =/= OHKO and Ilia Pegs often hold Steel Lances which fucks their SPD.

[Life]

Quick question, Inui.

Treck starts at level 4 in Chapter 7. Are you telling me that he somehow got 9 levels in 3 chapters with his 7 AS Iron Lance and 5 AS Javelin (preventing him from doubling anything)?

Edited April 16, 2010 by King Russell

[Narga_Rocks]

Quick question, Inui.

Treck starts at level 4 in Chapter 7. Are you telling me that he somehow got 9 levels in 3 chapters with his 7 AS Iron Lance and 5 AS Javelin (preventing him from doubling anything)?

You have to understand that Inui doesn't actually play efficiency. He goes for ranks. Meaning, hanging around until the pirates stop coming in chapter 9 and things like that are a-ok. I'd be surprised if he finishes chapter 7 (arena) in under 20 turns. It's not likely all that difficult to pull off, though it probably takes a lot of units using iron weapons and 2 rounding everything rather than blitzing with better weapons. Gets hit + kill exp for every single enemy.

[Colonel M]

Under a ranked playthrough, Treck can look okay.

On an efficient playthrough, it's a much different story. Treck really sucks within these instances, especially because:

He has 10.1 Spd at level 13, which was his level upon entering the Isles.

Granted, I understand that you're speaking about a ranked game play. Grandjackal is speaking from an efficiency type of gameplay where it is unreasonable for Treck to be climbing 6 Levels in 3 Chapters. Perhaps if you overfavor him, it's possible.

Even Percival fails to OHKO Pegs with axes. What are you talking about? 6 Def and 32 HP is the absolute worst I'm seeing in Chapter 18. A unit would need to have 37 Atk with an axe to get a OHKO. But each Peg squad has Axereavers, Javelins, and Killer Lances mixed in with a Silver Lance Falco. 37 Atk? Percival with 22 Str + Silver Axe gets that, but his axe level won't be that high. Lot doesn't have the Str for it. Gonzales? That's about it.

That's gravely besides the point. It's that Zealot fails to ORKO without a major resource. An 11 Zealot, which has 12 Str, has 20 Atk with the Iron Axe. To give you an idea, 20/1 Lot has 22 with the Hand Axe. Lot can actually ORKO with the Hand Axe if he desperately needed to (not that I'd honestly go for it since he can just whip out the Iron Bow). With a Speedwing, Lot has a good chance of doubling the Killer Lance Pegasi too after some buffer of levels. He isn't really destroying people from taking the resource, since the highest Spd you really need is 19, for FalcoKnights, which are rather rare on maps in the first place (most of the map is covered with Pegasus Knights THEN a FalcoKnight mixed in with them).

Zealot can ORKO I guess. From the looks of it, the Killer Lance can do it, but everyone else is practically ORKOing with Iron or Steel.

Like I've stated: I wouldn't use Zealot anywhere past Chapter 13. After that, I'd probably question why you are. Even assuming he's Level 11 is difficult with his rather slow CEXP gain.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[_____]

Potshot or two? Go start Chapter 2 and tell me how many instances of combat he can enter before foot units can even attack anything.

Just played through it. My mounted units reached Nodion a turn or two earlier than my foot units, but couldn't advance into the mid-boss's Ballistae and Armor range without waiting for healing. During this time, the foot units caught up (outside of, like, Azel and Ardan). I left them behind since I knew they couldn't help against MacBeth, Voltz, and the Free Knights. They were easily the first units to attack Clement and his castle, which fell handily, especially with the Sleep Staff. The final castle in the chapter has Zyne's mounted rush, and Zyne himself has a Knight Killer, so it's hard for any mounted unit not named Sigurd to tank through this.

Mounted units have an advantage during Elliot's rush and Voltz's rush. Outside of that, they're about the same.

It's nice that Ayra and Holyn have better stats and skills, but Noish actually gets to things.

And then 3RKOs it if he's lucky, and runs away.

It also seems like you're totally ignoring the fact that he has skills to help his offense

Base Noish:

Critical rate - 7%

5 Noish:

Critical rate - 7%

10 Noish:

Critical rate - 9%

15 Noish:

Critical rate - 10%

20 Noish:

Critical rate - 15%

25 Noish:

Critical rate - 16%

30 Noish:

Critical rate - 18%

His Critical rate is awful throughout his entire life, so I'm going to ignore that.

I'll get to Charge in a moment.

and can use slayer weapons for OHKOs

Level 10 Noish

w/ Knight Killer: 23 ATK (46 effective), 78 hit, -7 AS, -9 Avoid

Madino

- Lanceknights to the west of Augusty that start moving a little later

- Lanceknight L8, 38/9/0/8/8/0/8/0, Steel Lance, -4 (4)

Noish doesn't even OHKO these generic knights at the start of Chapter 3, let alone the Cross Knights, which are +2-3 in every stat on these guys, and have 1~2 range. You gimp his accuracy, his AS, and his Avoid just for one meaty hit that doesn't even kill generics.

Noish being able to rush ahead, take three hits without dying and counter in the process

Ah, this is where Charge comes in. Charge lets Noish pull out his 3HKO, right? This also lets any enemy attack Noish 2-3 times, which gimps his ability to tank anything, especially on the enemy phase.

Let's leave Charge on the Archers, please, IS?

and then run away and get healed

Which means he gets no enemy phase, so he's contributing almost nothing. 70%< of the game takes place on the enemy phase.

especially in that hard mode patch I recently played.

In Vanilla FE4, we don't need someone like Noish doing, like, 13 damage to enemies with 39 HP without doubling when most of your units are ORKOing.

He can absorb a few hits and counter

He's either trying to tank (with Charge, which means he sucks at it) or he's going back to heal. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

and then Alec, Cuan, Sigurd, etc. can kill the enemies instantly and don't have any damage on them.

Sigurd would be ORKOing and doesn't care about taking damage while Cuan has a monopoly on the Pursuit Ring and the fairly consistent Continue and a great shot at grabbing the Hero Lance. Alec and maybe Beowulf or Midir if Midir didn't grab the Killer Bow (which would be pretty dumb of the play not to give to him) are the only ones who care about Noish's chip damage.

Adding an additional mounted unit that can take hits and counter is always a good thing

But there are varying degrees of 'good'. Noish is the worst.

and since you have no limit on deployment, Noish is always a positive

I'd argue that Noish trying to take a weapon like the Knight Killer or the Armor Cutter away from other, better units (Alec and Beo come to mind) and the fact that he forces Ethlin to heal him almost every turn outweighs the fact that he exists in most maps, like Chapters 3, 4, and 5.

while foot units are stuck in neutral very often by lagging behind.

Already rebutted.

Even taking Sylvia into account in the end of Chapter 3 and onwards, Noish is slaughtering the foot units in mobility.

Noish has a horse?! I never knew!

Sylvia's own movement is garbage and she often lags behind as well.

Sylvia has the best claim of any unit to the Leg Ring and the Knight Ring. She's not lagging behind.

Also, the fact that he doesn't need Sylvia to have awesome mobility means other units get to use her more which means Noish is creating even more positive.

You're grasping at straws at this point, to be perfectly honest.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Noish has no access to any A sword, and has almost no claim to either the Hero Sword or the Hero Lance, so he's stuck with a Steel Sword for his entire career.

Noice job, Noishy!

Edited April 16, 2010 by Ninji