Possible tier list changes

[Anouleth]

Why do you need to kill them in one hit, exactly? I was not talking about a 0% growths run, your dudes should be able to take a single hit from an armor. Also, you seem to think I'm saying you should never use Paladins or Dracos, which isn't true. I'm just saying class A isn't better than B.

Really? What can Class B do better than A? Because from what I've seen, a Dracoknight can do anything a Warrior or Berserker can do but with 9 movement and flying instead of 7. Class A offers many things, such as superior weapon rank access and superior movement, that a unit in class B cannot emulate without a lot of training.

Sheeda does not have to be the one to kill the thief, but that is another job someone with high move can do. It's just that thieves are typically deep within enemy territory, and one frail unit would not be able to fight their way in alone.

Any unit with high movement can do this job. Unfortunately, that means a Class A unit.

Sorry, your highness, for I am but a simple commoner that yearns for your infinite wisdom

You don't need to take that kind of sarcastic tone. If there's a problem with dondon's playthrough, specify it and back yourself up with some evidence, rather than second-guessing every move he makes.

From what I can see here, you needed high move in order to get those boots. Everything else could've been done with lower move units.

Really? Could Jagen/Minerva/Sheeda have slipped past the Manakete and Sniper? Could they have reached the boss in time to avoid dealing with the reinforcements? Keep in mind that Jagen has to have Lance rank in order to use Ridersbane on Heimler, and that Minerva needs Axe Rank to use the Hauteclere on Volzhin, so they would have to become General and Berserker, respectively. They simply can't cover that kind of distance to attack Volzhin for the south in that many turns.

[Momo]

Really? What can Class B do better than A? Because from what I've seen, a Dracoknight can do anything a Warrior or Berserker can do but with 9 movement and flying instead of 7. Class A offers many things, such as superior weapon rank access and superior movement, that a unit in class B cannot emulate without a lot of training.

General can take an unlimited amount of hits, and kill Paladins and Dracoknights with ease.

Any unit with high movement can do this job. Unfortunately, that means a Class A unit.

Once again I feel I must mention that I never said high move was useless, just that you don't need to use it most of the time.

You don't need to take that kind of sarcastic tone. If there's a problem with dondon's playthrough, specify it and back yourself up with some evidence, rather than second-guessing every move he makes.

how do you suggest I do that? Make my own vids? I don't care about this enough to do that.

Really? Could Jagen/Minerva/Sheeda have slipped past the Manakete and Sniper? Could they have reached the boss in time to avoid dealing with the reinforcements? Keep in mind that Jagen has to have Lance rank in order to use Ridersbane on Heimler, and that Minerva needs Axe Rank to use the Hauteclere on Volzhin, so they would have to become General and Berserker, respectively. They simply can't cover that kind of distance to attack Volzhin for the south in that many turns.

They could go the same way Marth did.

[Don Draper]

how do you suggest I do that? Make my own vids? I don't care about this enough to do that.

Essentially, you are conceding by posting that.

[Momo]

By posting what, I don't wanna make my own vids? I didn't get into this discussion with the intent to, it should not be required.

[Anouleth]

General can take an unlimited amount of hits, and kill Paladins and Dracoknights with ease.

Except that General also has awful movement. What's the point of being durable if you don't move fast enough to expose yourself to enemies (unless you want everyone else in the army to move even slower)? dondon has shown in his videos that even with these supposedly frail Paladins and Dracoknights that don't have the durability or offense to back up their movement, he can still rush through maps quickly.

Once again I feel I must mention that I never said high move was useless, just that you don't need to use it most of the time.

High movement is always better than average movement. Even if the movement advantage that Class A has is minor or situational, it's better than the 'no advantage' that Class B has. Since really, aside from General durability (which doesn't really have any application in a fast run), Class B has no advantages.

how do you suggest I do that? Make my own vids? I don't care about this enough to do that.

And I don't care how you prove your point. But I suggest you show something, rather than making (incorrect) generalisations about how Paladins lack durability.

They could go the same way Marth did.

They can't. Only one unit can attack Volzhin from that side.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Slowking

[dondon151]

High movement is always better than average movement. Even if the movement advantage that Class A has is minor or situational, it's better than the 'no advantage' that Class B has. Since really, aside from General durability (which doesn't really have any application in a fast run), Class B has no advantages.

Berserkers have water walk =P Anyway, the only noticeable merit of class B is that they have tier 1 E axe classes and tier 2 D axe classes. It's kind of funny how Minerva's existence nullifies that advantage, though.

[Dat Nick]

uh im pretty sure barst is still epic tier

[dondon151]

uh im pretty sure barst is beat out by every staff user in the game as well as wendell and jagen

[Dat Nick]

uh im pretty sure theres a non warpskip tier list

and might I add that in this whole classet war it was never once clarified whether warp skipping was being done or not

Edited June 13, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Momo]

uh im pretty sure theres a non warpskip tier list

and might I add that in this whole classet war it was never once clarified whether warp skipping was being done or not

I wasn't, as warpskipping is boring. But whatever, I don't feel like taking part in it anymore.

[dondon151]

uh im pretty sure theres a non warpskip tier list

and might I add that in this whole classet war it was never once clarified whether warp skipping was being done or not

... So? DK saves turns, paladin saves turns, bishop saves turns. I don't see where it is necessary to draw a distinction between WS and NWS.

[Dat Nick]

How many turns is Jeigan going to save you past earlygame? Thought so.

[dondon151]

Much more than what Barst can save you over the entire course of the game.

[Dat Nick]

Seeing as how Barst is contributing early on as well (and not just late, he also happens to be one of your best early units too), I'm going to have to say no.

EDIT: Wait, reading that again....

How many turns is Jeigan going to save you past earlygame?

Much more than what Barst can save you over the entire course of the game.

Now you're trying to say that Jeigan>Barst lategame? Get real.

Edited June 13, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Rodykitty]

He's saying that Jeigan's early game alone > Barts' entire game.

[Anouleth]

Seeing as how Barst is contributing early on as well (and not just late, he also happens to be one of your best early units too), I'm going to have to say no.

EDIT: Wait, reading that again....

Now you're trying to say that Jeigan>Barst lategame? Get real.

Jeigan doesn't need to beat Barst lategame in order to be better overall (any more than Marcus needs to beat Dorcas in lategame).

And really, just because Barst is around and contributing doesn't mean he's in the same league as Jeigan, who still has a monopoly on the Silver Lance and better durability.

[Rewjeo]

But it was asked how many turns Jeigan saves you past early game, and the response was more than Barst. I, for one, doubt that. Unless you use ridiculous forges, but that same feat could then be replicated with much less money with other people.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Seeing as how Barst is contributing early on as well (and not just late, he also happens to be one of your best early units too), I'm going to have to say no.

EDIT: Wait, reading that again....

Now you're trying to say that Jeigan>Barst lategame? Get real.

Dondon is right actually. In H5 warpskip Barst is never given the opportunity to promote. Not to mention he has a very hard time gaining levels due to the speed the tier player is going at, lack of move, and bad hit to top it all off. For example Barst is unlikely to reach C ranks to wield hammers for chapter 6 giving Bord higher utility for that chapter.

Jeigan on the other hands roflstomps 1-3 and continues to own ass with high defense as a draco and silver/ridersbane from chapters 1-10. He even helps us warpskip chapter 11 on the first turn via draco if we choose to outright skip 10. Once the warpskip begins it's over for barst and all he is good for is killing one of the two knights in your path to the boss with the hammer on chapter 17 and being sacrificed/warped in the nigh endgame to open the chest for alm/buy shit from the secret shop. Jeigan can still take advantage of the forged dragonpiked via trading after Caeda has weakened chapter 17's boss to finish it off and with higher move/silver he is distinctly better than barst in both chapters 12/17 and 17x which due to every other chapter being skipped in some fashion actually makes Jeigan the superior late game unit if you considered that the game pretty much ends on chapter 17 since everything including 17x is getting warpskipped afterwards.

Edit: And honestly I didn't even go down the whole marth arguement that is he opens the door/chest to get 17x's Warpstave.

Edit: If I redid the list now I'd put Jeigan/Wendell/Abel/Hardin/Merric a tier above Ogma/Barst. Prob even top alongside the stavers/dragons/caeda/marth.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[Dat Nick]

Dondon is right actually. In H5 warpskip Barst

Great, only I'm not speaking in warpskip terms. I even flat-out said I wasn't.

He's saying that Jeigan's early game alone > Barts' entire game.

He said it incorrectly, assuming that's what he was trying to say.

And really, just because Barst is around and contributing doesn't mean he's in the same league as Jeigan, who still has a monopoly on the Silver Lance and better durability.

We're speaking in VERY different terms than Marcus/Dorcas. For one, Marcus actually creams the holy hell out of Dorcas earlygame, Jeigan really doesn't, he just moves further and loses offense once he loses his silver lance. For two, Marcus still wins Lategame over Dorcas, if you could believe that, whereas Barst is like in the Top 5 or something and Jeigan is piss useless.

Edited June 14, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Great, only I'm not speaking in warpskip terms. I even flat-out said I wasn't.

He said it incorrectly, assuming that's what he was trying to say.

We're speaking in VERY different terms than Marcus/Dorcas. For one, Marcus actually creams the holy hell out of Dorcas earlygame, Jeigan really doesn't, he just moves further and loses offense once he loses his silver lance. For two, Marcus still wins Lategame over Dorcas, if you could believe that, whereas Barst is like in the Top 5 or something and Jeigan is piss useless.

Dondon is still right then if you think just by taking away warp you make it a fair game for Barst. Jeigan's 1-12 is easily more valueable by turn count efficiency than barst's 2-endgame. Not to mention with that high move Jeigan can still maintain utility for quite some time after 12 with a forged ridersbane without harming the player efficiency wise since all he has to do is keep up with Caeda to be efficient. Which Barst can't ever do except as a horseman which is a complete joke of a class outside of highmove sacrifices/enemy manipulation.

Think about this for one moment. When does Barst ever save the player turns that no one else in the game can't replicate? So what if Barst can double/ORKO the braves in the late game and even pulls off getting 3RKOed himself. Everything he can do the other high tiers and even some upper mids can replicate. Caeda herself happens to be completely superior to him at it provided she was given the 2 draco shields and the 2 seraph robes. Even with the boosters himself Barst still doesn't have the high move/high defense the dracoknight class provides so he is still far worse than her. And let's not even talk about how broken the wingspear is.

Here's the problem with Barst. Efficiency is not defined by how good he is... it's defined by how well he can support Caeda.... and earlier in the game, Jeigan. And if a unit can't keep up with them or perhaps use a psychic stave to heal them... then they are screwed tier wise.

I'm actually gonna have to agree with Dondon again in non warpskip on Minerva being superior to Barst for a good portion of the game. That 10 move+A axes+flight combo is far more useful than another low move fighter. She's the perfect wingman for Caeda.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[_____]

If you don't fly, guys, you're going to Hell. I mean, you can't support Caeda, and every game is a Caeda solo, so you're just fucking useless.

[Interceptor]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Flying is king, so I can see where the argument comes from. I personally found Barst to be incredibly useful, but my run and the pope's are not directly comparable.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

If you don't fly, guys, you're going to Hell. I mean, you can't support Caeda, and every game is a Caeda solo, so you're just fucking useless.

Efficiency. Also did I ever say he was useless? No I didn't. We've just reevaluated his actual position and it appears that their were simply better strategies.

If you can't support Haar/Ike/whoever was top tier for any specific chapter in RD your usefulness is limited.

If you can't support Titania in POR your usefulness is limited.

If you can't support Seth in SS your usefulness was limited.

If you can't support the top tiers in SoS your usefulness was limited.

In all these games the goals of most other units for maximum efficiency was to simply help out the strongest who were leading the charge. He might miss an enemy or maybe he gets overwhelmed by ranged units and needs others to clear a path so he can move the maximum amount each turn. Either way he needs people who can keep up with him and pick off any morons who dare to attack him so he can keep moving.

If you noticed most of these guys are HIGH move units. Similar to Caeda/Jeigan/Minerva.

[VincentASM]

Moved these posts from the official site update topic. Kind of tired right now, so hopefully it wasn't too messy.

Edited June 14, 2010 by VincentASM

[Rewjeo]

Dondon is still right then if you think just by taking away warp you make it a fair game for Barst. Jeigan's 1-12 is easily more valueable by turn count efficiency than barst's 2-endgame.

You still don't understand. It was stated that Jeigan's LATEGAME was better than Barst's LATEGAME. So what if his 1-12>Barst? i don't think the first ~1/2 of the game counts as lategame, do you?