Possible tier list changes

[Interceptor]

Effective weapons only go so far. I mean, we have pretty much unlimited Hammers which can be forged at our leisure, but Poleaxes are a lot more rare (First one we get is in 17x), and any Axe user wants that (even Barst, as not taking a counter is a pretty good deal even if he's ORKOing).

Member Card solves that problem in a pinch, there are three of them in the Ch17 Secret Shop. Also, if we're using Minerva, we don't need a lot of axe users, since that's sort of what we're using her for in the first place.

10 Move and Flying aren't even that great in the midgame.

In the case where she can't take a hit from an effective weapon, or we don't have an appropriate decoy, and flying actually for true becomes a liability, she can ground herself for one chapter, just like any other Class A unit. This is a decent reason to work on her lance rank as a Draco for when lobbing a Javelin won't hinder you.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Effective weapons only go so far. I mean, we have pretty much unlimited Hammers which can be forged at our leisure, but Poleaxes are a lot more rare (First one we get is in 17x), and any Axe user wants that (even Barst, as not taking a counter is a pretty good deal even if he's ORKOing). Minerva needs to raise her D lances up to C to make use of the Ridersbanes, which would gimp one of her main pros (A Axes) for a little bit, so it's kind of pointless. 10 Move and Flying aren't even that great in the midgame. Chapter 11 has Arrowspate and a Horseman covering the north section and Chapter 13 has 3 Arrowspate Ballistae. Chapter 12 is good for 10 Move if only because it means you can advance more quickly, but flying just means you can't get anywhere near the Sniper or the reinforcements. Chapter 14 has Archers covering the left side, though charging down the right side while bypassing the river to catch the thieves would be pretty good, I guess. Can't argue against flying in Chapter 15. Chapter 16 has Horsemen spawning all over the place. I know it seems like I'm trying to make flying look like it's garbage when we all know it isn't, but it can hinder a unit a decent amount in some of these chapters.[/Quote]

Paladin/Cav for ballistae. Once again keeping up is more important than actual stats sometimes. She doesn't need Ridersbane to. Being able to instantly 2RKO/3RKO almost every non sword enemy from 10 to 19 is definitely useful with Hauteclere. It's not really worth saving up till endgame anyway. Then there is the Hammer utility as well.

Also. Bows lack 1 range and non horsies have sucky move. Horsemen are easily blicked. Snipers can be a pain but with high move + numbers it's no problem especially considering how few snipers there are.

And once again Paladin for sniper baiting or just close the gap with every 9-10 move unit necessary and slaughter the sniper on player phase.

Finally watch Dondon's 0% growth run. It's pretty much H5 Warpskip played at maximum efficiency. He takes incredible advantage of high move units there.

Oh, and Barst's stats are a really big improvement over Minerva's. Compare that 13/1 I posted to base Minerva. 10 HP, 6 Strength, 5 Speed (that 17 was meant to be Speed, but I accidentally wrote it as Skill).

Stats don't mean shit if the units never gets the chance till chapter 20 to actually take proper advantage of them. It's not like the cavs/dracos go away on chapter 20 either.

[_____]

Doubling is overrated. OHKo forges are far superior. Anything that she can't double usually Caeda is facing first. Or quite simply Minerva/Abel/Cain/Jeigan/Wendell/Hardin are all gonna gang up on them. In non warpskip Abel/Cain/Hardin can promote not to mention Marth has the rapier to finish off any knight/cav unfortunate enough to be left alive by the cavs/draco spam.

So, you're basically saying "Everyone else is going to kill what Minerva doesn't want to kill for her." That's not an argument. I could just as easily say "Yeah, anything Astrid doesn't crit, Geoffry can kill, so Astrid isn't bad at all", and it would make just as much sense.

You just didn't appreciate how much it did matter.

And you seem to refuse to provide any evidence to the contrary outside of cryptic sentences such as this, which don't support your case whatsoever.

Actually A rank axes can take quite some time. He won't be seeing them till after promotion. And he has a hard enough time getting to C ranks as it is. If we assume all the best high move units are in use then he has even bigger issues since he is gonna be seeing far less combat.

this is nonwarpskip barst who starts with d axes and is pretty much one of the best characters in all of the earlygame and you are saying that he is not getting c axes did you even read what you said

Even if we're using an entire team of Paladins and DKs like you all seem to be implying, 6 move units can still see a lot of action in any chapter up to 7. That's more than enough time to get C Axes, at the very least.

I don't think anyone is throwing a Speedwing on her unless they plan on dumping a bunch of other shit either. And I am not even gonna bother arguing it either. Her rank is because of A axes/high move and decent durability. If you can't see past the low stats in how that might be overall more useful in conjuncture with abel/cain/hardin/jeigan/wendell all picking high move classes to provide backup to Caeda then I give up.

every team is abel/cain/hardin/jagan/wendell/caeda and anybody with move lower than 9 who isn't wendell is obsolete

See it's not just Minerva providing backup to Caeda. There's a whole team of dudes.

A team that you assume is going to be deployed every time without any change whatsoever, so why are we even arguing anyone subpar? I know it's an efficiency tier list and we are supposed to be playing to get the lowest turn count possible, but a list of the most optimal team and then everybody else in sub-optimal, like that one list FE3 Player made for FE7, would probably be a lot more accurate based on these arguments instead of a list of every character ranked.

And most of them can consider themselves lucky if they see C rank axes by chapter 20.

Because E Axes is absolutely awful and nobody wants to raise it as a DK when you can just use Lances.

And that's entirely the problem (that you think it's obvious). In the scenario where Minerva can get to something (either countered or otherwise) and Barst cannot, the stat differences are marginalized, if not completely irrelevant. A stat comparison between two characters is not really an accurate predictor of performance in efficient play. Mobility really does make that much of a difference in some games (and this is one of them).

How often do scenarios like this appear? I mean, Minerva's never taking more than one hit from anything ever and thus requiries constant attention from 5-6 move Priests and Bishops who have a very, very limited supply of Psychics. She's not going to rambo things.

You didn't mention flying in that second-to-last summary sentence. When you consider how dominant that the ability to ignore terrain is in efficient play, this is a pretty serious lapse, since Barst never gets the ability, ever. Your phrasing paints the opposition as giving Minerva a leg up based only on her +MV lead.

You didn't say that, naturally, but since you persist in propping up straw men and knocking them over -- something that pisses me off to no end -- I have no problems with inferring the most absurd ideas from your posts and countering those things. Turnabout is fair play.

I will admit that I straw manned one of Lancelot's arguments earlier, though unintentionally, but I fail to see how this is "persisting to prop them up", especially considering you've yet to point out another in this argument, and we all know how you love to point out when people straw man. You're obviously referring to the debate over Nephenee, which is completely irrelevant, and I have given up on discussing (as most of your responses were glorified "no u"s without any actual reasoning behind them, there was no way for me to objectively prove she had no personality, and I was never very interested in it).

As you might expect, your playstyle doesn't really enter into the equation. Barst needs 23 combats with an Axe in order to get to C rank, the minimum required for earlygame utility, which is a stretch when you consider when he actually needs that rank. As for A rank (which is less important), that's no picnic either.

B is a much more important rank than A is, as allowing one to have Silver is infinitely more important than 1 point of attack. 53 rounds of combat are required for B rank axes. Now, I'd like to ask you when you consider Barst will reach this? I feel as though not reaching B axes by at least Chapter 12 is stretching things.

As for the stat boosters, this appears to be some kind of disease that infects everyone who ever plays Fire Emblem, unless they've vaccinated themselves with some cursory exposure to economics. A limited use resource is doing nothing for you when it's burning a hole in your convoy. Getting early utility out of Minerva is potentially preferable to lategame utility from someone else with the same resource, particularly since Minerva does not actually become useless.

When did I say it would rot in the convoy? Are you seriously saying that no character other than Minerva would benefit greatly from 2 AS? I rather doubt that.

Member Card solves that problem in a pinch, there are three of them in the Ch17 Secret Shop. Also, if we're using Minerva, we don't need a lot of axe users, since that's sort of what we're using her for in the first place.

Fair enough on the Member Card scenario. I always forget that Secret Shop. However, I don't really see why Minerva using Axes means we aren't using anyone else who can use them. I mean, I'm not going to not use Beowulf in FE4 because Sigurd, Alec, Noish, Holyn, and Ayra all use Swords before him. In fact, using more Axe users would be great, considering that Axes are the best weapon type in the game (Ridersbane and Prfs aside).

In the case where she can't take a hit from an effective weapon, or we don't have an appropriate decoy, and flying actually for true becomes a liability, she can ground herself for one chapter, just like any other Class A unit. This is a decent reason to work on her lance rank as a Draco for when lobbing a Javelin won't hinder you.

D Rank Lances is pretty hard to work on when Axes are almost always preferential.

Paladin/Cav for ballistae. Once again keeping up is more important than actual stats sometimes. She doesn't need Ridersbane to. Being able to instantly 2RKO/3RKO almost every non sword enemy from 10 to 19 is definitely useful with Hauteclere. It's not really worth saving up till endgame anyway. Then there is the Hammer utility as well.

A 20 use Axe is not going to last you 11 chapters, sorry. I doubt it will last 4 if you constantly use it. Hammers are nice, certainly, but any promoted Axe user can swoop in for a OHKO on those guys, even Generics.

Also. Bows lack 1 range and non horsies have sucky move. Horsemen are easily blicked. Snipers can be a pain but with high move + numbers it's no problem especially considering how few snipers there are.

Blanket statement to describe classes without looking at actual scenarios. Nice.

And once again Paladin for sniper baiting or just close the gap with every 9-10 move unit necessary and slaughter the sniper on player phase.

This isn't Minerva's Army vs. Barst, this is Minerva vs. Barst. Everyone else being able to kill Bow users doesn't mean Minerva is suddenly absolved of any responsibility.

Finally watch Dondon's 0% growth run. It's pretty much H5 Warpskip played at maximum efficiency. He takes incredible advantage of high move units there.

Good thing I'm not debating a Warpskip 0% Growth Run where every character relies on effective weapons to kill anything in one round or I would be in trouble!

For the record, I have seen them. Dondon is very good at what he does.

You know, Lancelot, you keep saying "bro 10 move units and flying are pretty much the greatest thing ever", but you haven't given me one example of where it's useful outside of "Go look at Dondon's videos!"

[dondon151]

You know, Lancelot, you keep saying "bro 10 move units and flying are pretty much the greatest thing ever", but you haven't given me one example of where it's useful outside of "Go look at Dondon's videos!"

Well, here is the thing. If a strategy works for 0% growths, it should work equally well or better under normal conditions. So all strategies that I used in my videos that required 10 move units are viable strategies (I did record those runs for a reason, you know). I consider video evidence to be the best type of evidence, because theoryFE can only go so far in attempting to replicate in-game conditions. I guess you're right in that Lancelot was being too broad in simply saying "go look at dondon's videos," and probably should have told you which videos in particular to look at. So I'll do that right now:

Chapter 5 (Jagen flies over the river and rescues the Wolfguard)

Chapter 7 (Wendell blocks forts and bypasses the chokepoint to Bantu's village)

Chapter 8 (Caeda and Wendell fly over the water)

Chapter 9 (Jagen grabs the Wyrmslayer)

Chapter 10 (Clearing the map as fast as possible)

Chapter 11 (Halfskip)

Chapter 12 (Necessary to run past the manakete)

Chapter 14 (Clearing enemies on turn 1)

Chapter 15 (Halfskip)

Chapter 16 (Halfskip)

Chapter 18 (Halfskip)

It really seems like that you are blindly making claims without looking up facts. You claim that the supply of Physic is low when I didn't even use up an entire staff in my playthrough (in fact, I didn't even get the second Physic), and I did not use the chapter 17 Fortify at all. You also claim that 20 uses of Hauteclere will not last more than 4 chapters when I probably did not use it more than 10 times over the entire run. You also failed to take into account that before I killed Barst off in chapter 14, he did not even reach level 10 (normally, I'd say he would hit level 10 in about chapter 11?). There is a very good reason why he did not even reach level 10, and it is not related to the lack of growths. It's simply because all of the fliers and cavs charged ahead and scorch earth'd the enemy while Barst was not even left with any scraps.

Also, Barst fails in the clutch. C axes by chapter 6 is a great boon, but on both of my runs up to that point I have not had him reach C axes until chapter 6x or chapter 7. It's actually rather amusing how Bord is better than Barst in that chapter.

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Are you arguing under the premise that the player doesn't touch a single use of Warp? In that case, I can definitely see the value of Barst's utility, since even very powerful forges fail to OHKO the lategame enemies without a nice str buffer (although you do get a ton of money in this game). Even then, you will potentially have a team of 5 DKs after chapter 14 who can Ridersbane/Wing Spear/Hammer everything to oblivion. But if you are using Warp, everything after chapter 15 or so (sans bosskilling) is trivial.

Plus, even though it's true that DKs have terrible axe rank, the existence of Minerva and Caeda pretty much trivialize that. The only significant advantage of axe rank is access to Hammer to OHKO armors and Hauteclere to damage everything else, and both OHKO armors while Minerva has, oddly, the highest base axe rank in the game. It really just seems like IS unknowingly gave class set A everything, because I remember when we all thought that class set B reigned supreme due to Barst, Sedgar, and Wolf.

Edited June 15, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Roger, Caesar, Radd, Dolph, Macellan, Darros, Bord, Cord, Lawrence, Athena, Etzel, Horace, Ymir, Naji, Wolf, Zagaro, Vyland, BOAH, and Barst will be Negative Utility. Another thing that depends on what happens with reclassing in general. In example, is Navarre going to his Mymridion class still and such. Or where Samto goes (though I think he'll go Myrmidion too). DracoKnight!Sirius sounds awesome though.

[Rewjeo]

I'm perfectly aware of what was implied. However, that doesn't change the fact that some people were saying that Jeigen's Lategame<Barst's, and others were refuting that with Jeigan's entire existence>Barst.

[_____]

dondon stuff

Not trying to brush you off in the slightest if it seems like that, but I had a big response typed up and now it's gone, and I'm pissed off because of it, so I'll just do the short version.

Yes, I am assuming no Warp is used whatsoever.

I can see where Flying would be useful in early chapters, but I only see 2 after Chapter 10, Minerva's joining chapter, that you've listed that don't invole Halfskipping.

Lancelot was claiming that usage of Hauterclete was liberal, while, obivously, you did not use it liberally. Same with Physic (I really have to stop misspelling that Psychic).

If Barst gained C Axes in 6x, he couldn't have been far off in 6, and I doubt it would hurt you if he had a few more rounds of combat.

Anyway, there's a more I could say, but I'm sure they'd be half-assed replies, so I will now transition to a point I've been forgetting to make now. Even if we consider the rest of Barst's earlygame forgettable, the man and his Devil Axe are pretty wonderful at helping to take down Hyman in Chapter 3, saving us countless turns. Bord can probably do it as well, but Barst is better in every paramater than Bord outside of Weapon Rank, so I'd rather leave it with Barst. It seems like a minor point, but it does have a pretty substantial effect on things. There are a lot of small moments like this in the earlygame where Barst is key.

[Phoenix Wright]

Jesus, the game isn't even out yet and you guys are trying to do tier lists, and are arguing about Shadow Dragon. You guys are ADDICTED to tier lists.

[Narga_Rocks]

so, this topic started about the changes that might happen to an fe3 book 2 tier list when making an fe12 tier list, right? Well, if sheeda gets that wing spear again and the game allows forging....

How many cavs and armors exist in fe3 b2?

[_____]

Nowhere near as many as Book 1.

I wonder how Palla/Catria vs. Caeda with a Wing Spear would turn out in this game, though.

[MizuJosh]

Nowhere near as many as Book 1.

I wonder how Palla/Catria vs. Caeda with a Wing Spear would turn out in this game, though.

You still get Catria WAY earlier than Caeda. Catria is what, Chapter 2?

[_____]

Caeda only joins 3 chapters later.

[grandjackal]

so, this topic started about the changes that might happen to an fe3 book 2 tier list when making an fe12 tier list, right? Well, if sheeda gets that wing spear again and the game allows forging....

How many cavs and armors exist in fe3 b2?

I think there might be more depending things on that. While money still is pretty hefty in supply in FE3, it's still not as gold-heavy as FE1 is for forging, especially early on.

That being said, still probably gonna be insane because the chapter after the chapter where Shiida joins has 2 paladins and 2 generals at the bridge to choke you off. She's gonna be huge there since I recall that otherwise you would only have one Ridersbane and few armorslaying weapons, though I suppose they'd also have been forged by now.

Right after that? Dragon's Valley. Hello hunters, barbarians and mamkutes of the flying/fire/ice variety. You'll want Dragonpikes for there, which due to their greater strength, probably is better in the hands of Katua and Paula.

Then for a brief period, there are quite a few chapters littered with cavalier units, but surprisingly indoor chapters there are more hero/sniper oriented, with the occasional general and mage. Little opportunity for slayer effect weapons.

Then Dragon's Dale, Sorcerers, Barbarians and Demon Dragons.

[Narga_Rocks]

If it doesn't matter often enough then it probably wouldn't be worth spending the money on her spear. If it does matter often enough then money is probably irrelevant. If you are better off spending the money on her than elsewhere, it is worth doing. From the sounds of it, though, it probably wouldn't be worth burning the cash. Only time will tell, though.

[Rewjeo]

Well, if there aren't that many, then you may only need to forge her one Wing Spear for the whole game. From my experience, she needs multiple in SD.

[dondon151]

Caeda only really needs 2 Wing Spears in FEDS. One of them will last her until chapter 17.

[Rewjeo]

And if she only needs one in this one, then, unless we have less than half as much money in this, I don't see how gold is much of a problem. Unless we have significantly less at the start.

[grandjackal]

Looking over the videos, I notice a few things.

-Ryan's at level 3, he has freaking 9 Str. In the least, this means he has 7 Str at base, +2 buff from his original Str. Still won't help his bound to be shit speed base (as it could still be a base of 4), but at least he'd do good chip damage now rather than mediocre chip...

-Cecile lost an Str point. Doubt it's too relevent, but I noticed that bit.

-Maric's got +2 Magic, but only has D rank. Makes me think that though Elrean could have 5 magic base, he'll have +2 might and +15 acc from A Rank of which to use Thoron (or at least B rank, which still makes Excalibur usable to him). So, Elrean can now do what Maric could with Excalibur in the dragon valley, but can also use Thoron on barbarians as to not waste Excalibur, where Maric would have to to do the same damage.

[dondon151]

Excalibur could also just be Prf for Merric instead of B rank and Prf for Merric like in the previous game.