Bonus Chapters and Tiers

[Snowy_One]

Okay. This is a bit of an odd question, I know, but I was curious as to it while I was mowing the law today.

Why don't we ever include the bonus maps in consideration for the tier lists? We always seem to assume that defeating Ashnard is the final bit of the game, and rightfully so seeing as it is the final storyline chapter. However, there is also the bonus maps as well, and many of them are... well... different. Lonely Isle is perfect for flyers and snipers while other maps add many other facets as well. Not to mention that they are actually ranked so there can be some form of concrete criteria other than a vague 'well I might be able to beat the chapter faster with unit X' as well as being pretty much the only chapters the Laguz Lords can partake in (if done on Hard) and the bonus characters can be even used on. So, why aren't the considered?

[NinjaMonkey]

I'd guess that they aren't included because they aren't part of the main game (therefore they don't count).

Edited June 30, 2010 by NinjaMonkey

[Psych]

We seem to hold CC to some regard in FE 8 as well.

I smell contradiction.

[Integrity]

We seem to hold CC to some regard in FE 8 as well.

I smell contradiction.

Actually, I am currently unawares if we hold CC in any regard whatsoever in FE8's rankings/tier lists. I certainly don't factor in my my rankings and I'm fairly positive the Tier List (r.i.p.) doesn't either. Similarly, I've never seen a mention of the Trial Maps in FE6.

[Rewjeo]

As far as I know, nothing past the main game is ever considered. Although post-game tier lists sound like fun. After all, there are FE11 Wifi tier lists.

[Snowy_One]

I would think it important. I mean, they ARE maps in the game and they can be played. Granted, I doubt that it will change a lot in tier standings other than the inclusion of the big three and bonus characters, but they do exist. Would give a bigger purpose to the late joiners as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

I would think it important. I mean, they ARE maps in the game and they can be played. Granted, I doubt that it will change a lot in tier standings other than the inclusion of the big three and bonus characters, but they do exist. Would give a bigger purpose to the late joiners as well.

But they don't help you win. It's like gaidens, only worse. They aren't actually necessary for completion (fe6 notwithstanding, nor any of the forced gaidens like the one in fe8, as far as gaidens are concerned).

The goal of the tier list is to win, and win quickly. The trial maps have no bearing on that, so unit performance in maps you don't even need to play also shouldn't be counted.

[Snowy_One]

Are you implying that the chapters are, somehow, unwinnable?

And at last check, a tier list had squat to do with actually winning, but rather gauging how well a character did to help you win. And if we're talking about things that don't 'need' to be played, shouldn't we be omitting anyone or anything that doesn't 'need' to be done as well to get the fastest clear time? Goodbye recruiting everyone! Goodbye ensuring survival! We just care about winning, not about how much a character helps you win or anything.

[Narga_Rocks]

Are you implying that the chapters are, somehow, unwinnable?

And at last check, a tier list had squat to do with actually winning, but rather gauging how well a character did to help you win. And if we're talking about things that don't 'need' to be played, shouldn't we be omitting anyone or anything that doesn't 'need' to be done as well to get the fastest clear time? Goodbye recruiting everyone! Goodbye ensuring survival! We just care about winning, not about how much a character helps you win or anything.

But the goal is to (somewhat safely) beat the game with few turns. We measure characters by how well they assist with that goal. What else are we tiering them on? Their ability to cook? Their performance in trial maps has no relevance since trial maps do not assist with completing that goal.

And no, we don't need to recruit everyone. Take Aran. Please. Aran still gets tiered because you most certainly can recruit him. I see no reason why he must be on everyone else's team. Granted, there is no reason not to since it shouldn't cost turns, but that's not important right now.

survival? Have you seen people talk about sacrificing the LEA in 4-4 to make Mr. sleep staff ignore Ike and friends? And what about fe11?

But if you had a giant map with some useless trash on the far side and the seize near where you start? I don't really think we'd assume he is recruited all the time. We can still tier him for how good he is when we recruit him, but I don't see a need to worry about Mr. Trash when tiering everyone else.

@bold: love the strawman. I specifically said:

"The goal of the tier list is to win, and win quickly."

If we are tiering units when the goal is to win quickly, why wouldn't we care about how much a character helps?

[Mekkah]

We don't include CC/Trial Maps because they're not on our route from the beginning to the end of the game, simple as that. You can include them on your tier list if you want, especially since you seem to be looking for ways to put Titania lower and endgame characters higher...

[Snowy_One]

But the goal is to (somewhat safely) beat the game with few turns.

Erm. No. First off, this is a impossible standard. Any speed of clearance that can be obtained can always be obtained faster. Unless you plan on finding some pathway involving a character rushing to the maximum of their move and never getting obstructed or anything similar and never having any problems, it is impossible to say what the fastest turn count is. Not to mention that a fastest turn count involves some pretty stupid things (like having Lethe/Mordi kill in chapter 9, or cheap-killing the BK in RD). This is ignoring that the game is a team effort and thusly it is near impossible to tell how much any one unit sped up the chapter, only what the team did.

We measure characters by how well they assist with that goal. What else are we tiering them on? Their ability to cook?

Their ability to be good and useful units hopefully.

Their performance in trial maps has no relevance since trial maps do not assist with completing that goal.

Who says they don't? Who says you beat the game when you've beaten Ashnard? Sure, the story-line of the game is over, but there are still maps to clear. Why on earth should it be considered 'over' at that point? Because there was a cutscene?

survival? Have you seen people talk about sacrificing the LEA in 4-4 to make Mr. sleep staff ignore Ike and friends?

No I do not. I also see little reason why it should matter on a tier list unless it somehow directly affects the characters in some way.

And what about fe11?

I was under the impression that there was no FE11. Just a remake of 1. Either way, don't follow the game, don't know a thing about it, don't really care.

But if you had a giant map with some useless trash on the far side and the seize near where you start? I don't really think we'd assume he is recruited all the time. We can still tier him for how good he is when we recruit him, but I don't see a need to worry about Mr. Trash when tiering everyone else.

Fair enough.

@bold: love the strawman. I specifically said:

"The goal of the tier list is to win, and win quickly."

If we are tiering units when the goal is to win quickly, why wouldn't we care about how much a character helps

Because if you cared how much a unit helps, you do not essentially care how fast the chapter is beaten or how it is done, just how much that character helps to beat it. Example: in tiering unit X you are discussing chapter A. You do not essentially care how many turns chapter A took to complete in actuality, only how much unit X helped to achieve that goal. Otherwise unit X could be tiered higher than unit Y not because of how well unit X did, but because unit Z barreled through the chapter and cleared it faster.

We don't include CC/Trial Maps because they're not on our route from the beginning to the end of the game, simple as that.

But why is Ashnard's defeat the end of the game? There's still maps to clear. It's not the end of the game, just the end of the storyline.

You can include them on your tier list if you want, especially since you seem to be looking for ways to put Titania lower and endgame characters higher.

I hate Titania. It's no secret. Rather, I hate how people fall head over heels and worship the ground she walks on and claim that she should always be used no matter what and that she should be thrown into masses of enemies to kill most or all of the enemies on the map just to shave off one or two turns off a turn count for a self-imposed goal. If, say, the game actually had turn rankings and the only way to S-rank them was to use Titania like that in those chapters, I would have no problem with her ranking. Would still hate how people praise her, but I wouldn't have any problem with her ranking.

[Narga_Rocks]

I hate Titania. It's no secret. Rather, I hate how people fall head over heels and worship the ground she walks on and claim that she should always be used no matter what and that she should be thrown into masses of enemies to kill most or all of the enemies on the map just to shave off one or two turns off a turn count for a self-imposed goal. If, say, the game actually had turn rankings and the only way to S-rank them was to use Titania like that in those chapters, I would have no problem with her ranking. Would still hate how people praise her, but I wouldn't have any problem with her ranking.

This is the problem, right here. You seem to have no basis for ranking characters. You have some notion of "how well they do" in their chapters or something strange. But if we aren't trying to go a little faster, what are you basing your ratings on? We can see how well a unit performs by whether or not they can make it faster than some other unit you could have chosen. Looking at their stats (including move) can allow us to judge how good a job they do for that goal. If all you are interested in is clearing things then how much actually matters? You could have Gatrie wonder around and tank the place. It might take forever, but that's the easiest way to win. Just have some immortal run around. Let's say we made Oscar and Ike incapable of doubling anything. I have no idea what your standard is, but from all appearances they would still be among the best units because with their supports active they simply don't get hit. Ever. They'll eventually kill, particularly since they 2HKO so many enemies (forges help). But they aren't doing much to speed us up. In a tier list like the ones we normally make, they wouldn't actually be very high (ignoring smash-lists) because they aren't helping us clear things quicker. They'd only be high if the other units had no durability. Being 3 or 4 HKOd when we have available healers means we don't need non-doubling Ike/Oscar even though they'd never die.

I don't know what the "goal" of your ideal tier list is, but whatever you have in mind isn't what most of the rest of us have in mind. And consider that the trial maps require you to go back to the main menu and select something different than "start" or "load". That should tell you that it's not part of the main game. We rate how they perform in the game. You start, you play from beginning to end, and then when the game kicks you back to the start menu it's over. This is more than just a "cutscene". It's something that says "hey, you are done. Complete. Finito. Here's the start menu. Go do something else now."

[Anouleth]

But the goal is to (somewhat safely) beat the game with few turns.

Erm. No. First off, this is a impossible standard. Any speed of clearance that can be obtained can always be obtained faster. Unless you plan on finding some pathway involving a character rushing to the maximum of their move and never getting obstructed or anything similar and never having any problems, it is impossible to say what the fastest turn count is. Not to mention that a fastest turn count involves some pretty stupid things (like having Lethe/Mordi kill in chapter 9, or cheap-killing the BK in RD). This is ignoring that the game is a team effort and thusly it is near impossible to tell how much any one unit sped up the chapter, only what the team did.

Why is it stupid to have Lethe or Mordecai kill things in Chapter 9? If it saves us a turn now at the cost of ~50 exp or whatever, I'd rather lose the experience, unless you can show that having 50 more experience on Oscar or Boyd or whoever is going to save us a turn later on (which is impossible).

We measure characters by how well they assist with that goal. What else are we tiering them on? Their ability to cook?

Their ability to be good and useful units hopefully.

Useful towards what end?

Their performance in trial maps has no relevance since trial maps do not assist with completing that goal.

Who says they don't? Who says you beat the game when you've beaten Ashnard? Sure, the story-line of the game is over, but there are still maps to clear. Why on earth should it be considered 'over' at that point? Because there was a cutscene?

Sure, while we're at it, why don't we consider the whole of FE10 as well, since technically the storyline isn't over and there are still maps to clear, just on a different disk (just as certain trial maps require us to have cartridges).

If we are tiering units when the goal is to win quickly, why wouldn't we care about how much a character helps[/i]

Because if you cared how much a unit helps, you do not essentially care how fast the chapter is beaten or how it is done, just how much that character helps to beat it. Example: in tiering unit X you are discussing chapter A. You do not essentially care how many turns chapter A took to complete in actuality, only how much unit X helped to achieve that goal. Otherwise unit X could be tiered higher than unit Y not because of how well unit X did, but because unit Z barreled through the chapter and cleared it faster.

So in theory, I could kill every enemy in Clash! with Elincia over the course of 400 turns, and since she's killed the most enemies, she's contributed the most towards completing the chapter.

Sadly, your idea of tiering characters on the vague basis of 'how much they help to beat the chapter' falls apart when we remove the stipulation that we play to win in the current decade. Under your suggestion, movement would be worthless, since it doesn't help kill enemies or Seize objectives, it just does it faster. I guess that means every Paladin needs to suddenly go down. But I guess that healers need to go down as well, since we have all the time we want to quaff Vulneraries instead of healing properly, and since they don't fight well, that makes them redundant too unless we try and play quickly. Oh, and I guess we'll be boss abusing too, since it helps us complete later chapters, even if it means we need to spend a century or two in Chapter 9.

You can include them on your tier list if you want, especially since you seem to be looking for ways to put Titania lower and endgame characters higher.

I hate Titania. It's no secret. Rather, I hate how people fall head over heels and worship the ground she walks on and claim that she should always be used no matter what and that she should be thrown into masses of enemies to kill most or all of the enemies on the map just to shave off one or two turns off a turn count for a self-imposed goal. If, say, the game actually had turn rankings and the only way to S-rank them was to use Titania like that in those chapters, I would have no problem with her ranking. Would still hate how people praise her, but I wouldn't have any problem with her ranking.

The long term negative of kills going to Titania is not as great as the short-term benefit we get by removing her leash. What part of this do you not understand? We have THOUSANDS of BEXP sitting around in Chapter 8. We are God from that point onward - if we wish it, we can turn Boyd or Oscar or even goddamn Rolf into a promoted god with a wave of our fingers (well, more like a demigod in Rolf's case but w/ever). And the game continues to throw more and more at us!

[Life]

Snowy, I'd like to direct your attention to this. It's not FE9 but the idea is the same. And I suggest that you read the entire topic and watch the first 5 chapters before responding.

dondon151's FE8 0% Growths Playthrough

Let's look at Seth's performance in the first... 5 chapters or so. Seth is a god that mows through everything. In return, dondon gets much lower turn counts than someone who neglects Seth completely. And since his units get no stat upgrades, he's basically showing why Seth is so good when every single person is stat-screwed.

Now let's transpose this to FE9. Titania is Seth for all intents and purposes in this game. Oscar is... let's call him Franz for the sake of convenience. Are a few level ups on Oscar (let's call it 2 for the amount of kills that Titania gets that would go to Oscar specifically) going to make such a difference in the end of the game (efficiency-wise) ESPECIALLY when we have a shitload of bonus Exp to toss around? Not really. For every turn that Titania saves in the beginning of the game, does she lose the same exact amount of turns since she denied the entire team of maybe 4 levels (among the entire team, not each) a chapter? If you play efficiently, the answer is no.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Quick question: why do we go to gaidens?

[Anouleth]

Quick question: why do we go to gaidens?

Some people don't. I don't think Aquilae is visiting any Gaidens in his FE7 playthrough, for example.

I think that whether Gaidens or trial maps should be considered should be left up to whoever is in charge of the tier list. There's no right way or wrong way to do it, but I would prefer a list that doesn't count them as being necessary.

[Snowy_One]

This is the problem, right here. You seem to have no basis for ranking characters. You have some notion of "how well they do" in their chapters or something strange. But if we aren't trying to go a little faster, what are you basing your ratings on?

How well they perform throughout the entire game. It's really not that hard. I just don't see the point in using a goal so easily screwed about with as turn counts to gauge how good a character is, especially when it gets to be something more vague than 'Titania can potentially clear the entire map'. If we are using Titania to clear the map, then there is no point in how well Boyd or Oscar does. We're going by minimum turn count. It's better to have Titania blast through the earlier levels and nothing any other unit can do will change that. Ergo, they're all pointless because anything before chapter nine is essentially a question of how long it will take Titania to reach the boss and/or how long it will take other units to reach the goal point. So if we are indeed focusing on minimum turn count instead of performance, than Ike, Boyd, Oscar, and anyone else who joined before chapter 9 is essentially pointless and shouldn't receive any credit at all except for chapters 5 and 8 which have defend portions. Even then, it's a question of 'how long until Titania reaches the boss' than 'how good are my units'.

We can see how well a unit performs by whether or not they can make it faster than some other unit you could have chosen.

So every unit is irrelevant so long as there is one overpowered unit on the field that can solo the map and defend chapters don't exist?

If all you are interested in is clearing things then how much actually matters? You could have Gatrie wonder around and tank the place. It might take forever, but that's the easiest way to win. Just have some immortal run around.

You're suggesting that as well. Except I still say that the map should be completed in the Bexp limit (making Gatire running around a bad idea assuming he can't clear the map in the turn limit) while you are pining for minimum turns. Your philosophy actually supports immortal overleveleds more than mine.

Let's say we made Oscar and Ike incapable of doubling anything. I have no idea what your standard is, but from all appearances they would still be among the best units because with their supports active they simply don't get hit.

Actually they would likely be benched (Ike excepted for obvious reasons) and removed from the field if possible barring some form of obvious use. Ergo, if I needed one of the gangplanks in the ship level blocked and for some reason didn't want to use Gatrie. However, not doubling is still a big no-no for my standards, at least for combat units. A unit like Rhys, who is mainly support, gets a by.

Ever. They'll eventually kill, particularly since they 2HKO so many enemies (forges help). But they aren't doing much to speed us up.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't care about turn counts. This is wrong. I DO care about them, just not after a certain point. Additionally, I compare the Bexp reward to the potential reward of more EXP to decide if I should stay on a map longer, especially if Bexp abuse isn't allowed (as it is not in tier lists). Exp > Bexp after all for leveling.

In a tier list like the ones we normally make, they wouldn't actually be very high (ignoring smash-lists) because they aren't helping us clear things quicker. They'd only be high if the other units had no durability. Being 3 or 4 HKOd when we have available healers means we don't need non-doubling Ike/Oscar even though they'd never die.

And in a similar fashion, I wouldn't likely be putting Ike or Oscar high up if they didn't double as well.

I don't know what the "goal" of your ideal tier list is,

To have the strongest possible team.

And consider that the trial maps require you to go back to the main menu and select something different than "start" or "load". That should tell you that it's not part of the main game. We rate how they perform in the game. You start, you play from beginning to end, and then when the game kicks you back to the start menu it's over. This is more than just a "cutscene". It's something that says "hey, you are done. Complete. Finito. Here's the start menu. Go do something else now."

Okay. Fair enough. They require you to go to the start menu. I don't see why they shouldn't be included still. They are maps that can be played. The team you use is the same as you ended the game with. Why shouldn't they be included? I see no reason from a tier perspective.

Why is it stupid to have Lethe or Mordecai kill things in Chapter 9? If it saves us a turn now at the cost of ~50 exp or whatever, I'd rather lose the experience, unless you can show that having 50 more experience on Oscar or Boyd or whoever is going to save us a turn later on (which is impossible).

Around that time, I would expect Ike and co to be level 10. That means 50 EXP = 50 Bexp. Even if I was already over the turn limit, I wouldn't see any point in using them seeing as, in your own words, it's only one turn. I lose 30 Bexp, but I gain 50 EXP. If my team is higher leveled, it's even worse for BEXP values. Plus I can beat the chapter on my own without using them and still be below Bexp turn counts.

Useful towards what end?

The point of any tier list. Completing the game with as strong a team as possible.

So in theory, I could kill every enemy in Clash! with Elincia over the course of 400 turns, and since she's killed the most enemies, she's contributed the most towards completing the chapter.

Better example. Assume Elincia would take 400 turns to clear Clash! but another unit can clear in in two turns. Would Elincia be higher because her minimum turn count was lower even though she contributed nothing to it (presumably not even healing)?

Sadly, your idea of tiering characters on the vague basis of 'how much they help to beat the chapter' falls apart when we remove the stipulation that we play to win in the current decade.

Congrats. I never said that and it still found it's way in!

Under your suggestion, movement would be worthless, since it doesn't help kill enemies or Seize objectives, it just does it faster.

No. Movement has it's place. Just not as the be-all end-all that a minimum turn count list has where it basically ends up being a list of movement values.

Oh, and I guess we'll be boss abusing too, since it helps us complete later chapters, even if it means we need to spend a century or two in Chapter 9.

I consider boss abuse to be just as much of a tier no-no as anyone else. Fail.

The long term negative of kills going to Titania is not as great as the short-term benefit we get by removing her leash. What part of this do you not understand? We have THOUSANDS of BEXP sitting around in Chapter 8. We are God from that point onward - if we wish it, we can turn Boyd or Oscar or even goddamn Rolf into a promoted god with a wave of our fingers (well, more like a demigod in Rolf's case but w/ever). And the game continues to throw more and more at us!

Any amount of power that could be around after that Bexp had been used would be greater if Titania had not been used or if minimum turn counts were removed as the over-riding objective.

Sure, while we're at it, why don't we consider the whole of FE10 as well, since technically the storyline isn't over and there are still maps to clear, just on a different disk (just as certain trial maps require us to have cartridges).

Except it's not the same team, not the same game, requires quite a few chapters using a different team, and quite a few other reasons.

Let's look at Seth's performance in the first... 5 chapters or so. Seth is a god that mows through everything. In return, dondon gets much lower turn counts than someone who neglects Seth completely. And since his units get no stat upgrades, he's basically showing why Seth is so good when every single person is stat-screwed.

So in a altered setting in which units with high statistical base values have a huge advantage, using a unit with a high statistical value is suddenly a good idea?

[/i]Now let's transpose this to FE9. Titania is Seth for all intents and purposes in this game. Oscar is... let's call him Franz for the sake of convenience. Are a few level ups on Oscar (let's call it 2 for the amount of kills that Titania gets that would go to Oscar specifically) going to make such a difference in the end of the game (efficiency-wise) ESPECIALLY when we have a shitload of bonus Exp to toss around? Not really. For every turn that Titania saves in the beginning of the game, does she lose the same exact amount of turns since she denied the entire team of maybe 4 levels (among the entire team, not each) a chapter? If you play efficiently, the answer is no.[/i]

Except that the answer is 'yes'. Rather, any team that could exist from blowing EXP on Titania so she can get the lowest turn count would have been more powerful if the team had not been so single-mindedly focused on turn count. Which team is better? One with a level 2 promoted Titania and a level 14 Oscar? Or one with a level 1 Promoted Titania, a level 1 oscar, and a level 14 Boyd as well?

I also do so love that, of the responses, only about two paragraphs had to actually deal with the topic in which they were posted. Namely asking why bonus maps are not included in tier discussions (doubly so since they actually have ranks in them instead of self-imposed goals).

[Interceptor]

Snowy, you're being ridiculous. Try clearing chapters prior to Ch9 by using nobody except Titania; you'll find that it's actually harder than using everyone.

[Anouleth]

I don't know what the "goal" of your ideal tier list is,

To have the strongest possible team.

Well, clearly we just have different goals if all you think is important is reaching 20/20 and having the highest possible stats and best skillset there.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Slowking

[Colonel M]

Sounds like Snowy is pulling a Globe / MaxKnight, in which he believes he knows what the concept of efficiency is, yet attempts to take away the most important factor in the equation.

Even playing under our efficiency standards, we attempt to maximize our EXP gains, but it is done within the constraints given to us. Whether you like Peter Titania or not is irrelevant to the equation at hand. If you are playing efficiently, you are using Titania. End of story. No beating around the bush for such a bland theory. Merely, your beating around the bush creates a bullshit term called "Experience Efficiency" in which you pretend to be efficient, but in reality you are not.

It's bad enough I have to deal with dimwits like MaxKnight in Shining Force boards. Don't kill the track record here.

[dondon151]

How well they perform throughout the entire game. It's really not that hard.

Sir, this statement has about as much substance as a helium balloon. Please enlighten us the method through which you determine "how well they perform throughout the entire game."

Except that the answer is 'yes'. Rather, any team that could exist from blowing EXP on Titania so she can get the lowest turn count would have been more powerful if the team had not been so single-mindedly focused on turn count. Which team is better? One with a level 2 promoted Titania and a level 14 Oscar? Or one with a level 1 Promoted Titania, a level 1 oscar, and a level 14 Boyd as well?

I don't think you even bothered to take a glance at the FE8 videos. A criterion of "team power" is utterly superfluous. I have empirically shown that it is possible to not just beat, but trivialize FE6, FE8, and FEDS with the weakest team possible. At least, in my opinion, clearing the game with a weak team deserves more merit than clearing the game with a strong team. Regardless, what is the point of judging teams by "team power" when you can get the same result with much less power?

[Soren37]

I will spell this out simply. Efficiency is using a team capable of defeating the enemies and the map quickly, with minimal casualties and injuries, and not using 15000 gold prior to the map to make everyone actually able to kill.

Efficiency in terms of 'the strongest team evar' is weak. On EM in Radiant Dawn, Edward can be made into one of your best Swordmasters. However, when you start playing on NM or HM, Eddie falls apart, and becomes less then average because of his shaky durability at the start. The "Strong Team" efficiency is different for everyone, too. Some people like to use Rhys for healing and nothing else. Others say that Mist is a much better healer due to a horse and access to the magical swords. Some people say that Gatrie is your best General, while others argue that Brom or Tauroneo are the better options. It all breaks down into who thinks what.

That's why we use efficiency in the tier lists. How does the character reduce the turn-counts while staying alive and using minimal resources? Your method would lead to flame wars, trolling, and highly opinionated tier lists that vary so greatly that people would avoid them like the plague.

[Anouleth]

Well, if we have 15000 gold lying around, we may as well use it. It doesn't help us to sit on it, any more than it helps us to sit on stat boosters or special weapons.

Snowy fails to understand the important thing - we use strong characters because they help us complete the game fast. We do not complete the game in order to have strong characters. Cart before the horse.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Slowking

[Dat Nick]

Wendy for High tier because she's a good unit for trial maps at 20/20!

Edited July 3, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Colonel M]

Wendy for High tier because she's a good unit for trial maps at 20/20!

Needs more Claude smash Endgame because time is no factor.

Now now bblader, what about Boris? 1/3 of Wendy's contributions in trial maps is because of the Triangle Attack!