Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Deliriyum]

No.

There's also the Silver Card which can be obtained in C10.

Right. I'm a bit lost because I haven't gotten to that point yet in my PT.

[Dat Nick]

There's also the Silver Card which can be obtained in C10.

Where? /must have missed it

[AstraLunaSol]

Where? /must have missed it

YOu have to keep all the clerics alive.

[Dat Nick]

YOu have to keep all the clerics alive.

...Grr...

When I see healers, I'm used to thinking "easy EXP"...

edit: In response to a character on some Canadian drama series, while I think it goes without saying that Zag and Wolf are definitely shitty units, I don't really see how they're as bad as Sheema. Unlike her, they have some form of mobility which makes running around chipping stuff a lot easier. Silver Bow has 90 hit and they have 17-ish skill, plus B bows should still grant an accuracy boost. If they're seeing hit rates under 100 (enemy avo seems to be around 20~) it doesn't look like it's going to be by much, and even if they miss the penalty will be much smaller than it would have been if Sheema misses (Even with 1-2 range being more prevalent, they'd still be in less shit than she would be if she missed with a slayer; more enemies have 1-2 range than in FEDS, but you still have Silver Sword/Axe Heroes and Generals and the like around so it's not like they have absolutely zero safe options to target). Now, and I'm perfectly aware everybody else can do this, but even Zag and Wolf should be perfectly capable of killing flying dragons with the Brave Bow (And that's really the best thing you can use the weapon for, killing dragons before they can even hit you, so I don't see how giving them to use it for the most useful purpose it can be used for is too much favoritism) but their move actually makes them perfectly viable choices for the job (unless they're going to have hit problems in which case yeah I guess they're screwed, but I'm crunching numbers and unless I'm overlooking something they don't seem to be in that much trouble). Sheema has availability...but what's she doing with it, honestly? As bad as Zag and Wolf are, I don't see any way at all they're worse than Sheema.

I'll repeat that last sentence again and bold some vital words so even Colonel_M and Mekkah have no excuse to take this out of context.

Zag and Wolf are bad units, but just not as bad as Sheema.

*waits for #feto to laugh about how BB hypes the Wolfguard to Top tier*

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[dondon151]

Thanks a lot for misrepresenting the entirety of #feto.

[Dat Nick]

Nope, no misrepresentation. I get laughed at for things I have said that have been taken out of context and I have had it up to here with it.

[dondon151]

The best solution to that would be to show your face on #feto and clear yourself up, instead of letting CM do the talking for you.

[Dat Nick]

The best solution to that would be to show your face on #feto and clear yourself up, instead of letting CM do the talking for you.

A: I'm banned

B: I have no desire to talk to those tools again even if I WASN'T banned (and I'm certain the feeling's mutual)

C: I've cleared up the issue endless times and I get the hands-over-the-ears treatment every time I try to do so, why would doing this in a chat be any different

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Dr. Tarrasque]

PMs. Not here.

[Don Draper]

edit: In response to a character on some Canadian drama series,

Hey.

Entourage isn't Canadian.

Unlike her, they have some form of mobility which makes running around chipping stuff a lot easier. Silver Bow has 90 hit and they have 17-ish skill, plus B bows should still grant an accuracy boost. If they're seeing hit rates under 100 (enemy avo seems to be around 20~) it doesn't look like it's going to be by much, and even if they miss the penalty will be much smaller than it would have been if Sheema misses (Even with 1-2 range being more prevalent, they'd still be in less shit than she would be if she missed with a slayer; more enemies have 1-2 range than in FEDS, but you still have Silver Sword/Axe Heroes and Generals and the like around so it's not like they have absolutely zero safe options to target).

Sheema has Auto-B bows as a Sniper, so she's not chipping significantly less. Sniper Sheema is chipping 3-5 less then Sedgar/Wolf which is an advantage in Sedgar/Wolf's favor but not a huge one.

Now, and I'm perfectly aware everybody else can do this, but even Zag and Wolf should be perfectly capable of killing flying dragons with the Brave Bow (And that's really the best thing you can use the weapon for, killing dragons before they can even hit you, so I don't see how giving them to use it for the most useful purpose it can be used for is too much favoritism) but their move actually makes them perfectly viable choices for the job (unless they're going to have hit problems in which case yeah I guess they're screwed, but I'm crunching numbers and unless I'm overlooking something they don't seem to be in that much trouble). Sheema has availability...but what's she doing with it, honestly? As bad as Zag and Wolf are, I don't see any way at all they're worse than Sheema.

Flying Dragons have 1-2 range in Lunatic mode, and ORKO Zagaro, Sedgar and Sheema.

Honestly, they're all around the same level of crap, certainly not a tier apart.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Dat Nick]

Hey.

Entourage isn't Canadian.

...It's not. Huh. For whatever reason I remember it being so when I wiki'd Ari Gold ages ago.

[Colonel M]

Best solution: quit hyping them. Obviously they're better than Sheema, but being useless chip is a poor excuse to be fielded. We might as well re-drag the Curate Radd red carpet for them; that's how much they suck.

Never thought I'd see the day when Gordin was better than Zag / Wolf, but here I stand corrected.

[Dat Nick]

Best solution: quit hyping them.

I'm NOT! Jesus Christ, WHAT THE FUCK? I go out of my way to say "they're shit, just better than Sheema" (I have not argued them better than ANYBODY else) and you STILL SOMEHOW find a way to totally ignore that portion. Are you capable of taking one single post I made in the correct context? I know I shouldn't be surprised seeing as how you have so much disdain for me you'll say Cav!Ryan and Cav!Gordin are good setups just for the sake of disagreeing with me, but honestly? I even took the time to spell it out for you, how on earth could anybody interpret "they suck, just not as much as Sheema" (And I have not mentioned a single name besides Sheema) as hype?! Well, YOU apparently, but...REALLY...this is like saying "Arran is better than Est!" is hyping Arran.

See, dondon? I TOLD you I wasn't misrepresenting. He really does this. All the time. And I've had enough of it. And he claims I do it to him. Isn't that a riot?

Sheema has Auto-B bows as a Sniper, so she's not chipping significantly less. Sniper Sheema is chipping 3-5 less then Sedgar/Wolf which is an advantage in Sedgar/Wolf's favor but not a huge one.

That's true; the main point was the mobility. I get they don't have a big stat lead.

Flying Dragons have 1-2 range in Lunatic mode, and ORKO Zagaro, Sedgar and Sheema.

...I said Brave Bow (and as I said, that's the best thing you can use it for, killing flying dragons before they can leave a mark on you) so if you can kill them with the Bow (and I'm nearly sure it's impossible not to) then it shouldn't be favoritism. Then again, they could have gotten a huge HP/Def spike rendering it impossible, I shouldn't have overlooked that...Anyway, Sheema can too, but they've got much better mobility to position themselves. Hell, if I don't have another Horseman on board, I wouldn't not consider bringing them just for the Brave Bow on flying dragons, if it ORKOs them.

Honestly, they're all around the same level of crap, certainly not a tier apart.

Wasn't trying to state otherwise. I'm perfectly fine with them just being right above Sheema. They're better than useless sacks of shit like her and Est (Who can't even claim prologue utility, Cain is a better choice for P-8), that's the only thing I was arguing (Contrary to what CM seems to be under the complete delusion of...)

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Don Draper]

Flying Dragons have 51 HP/14 Def in Chapter 21. That means you'll need 17 Strength to 2HKO them with Brave Bow or +1 Might Forged. True, I guess that's good for something.

[Rewjeo]

If the flying dragons are about as durable as the dracos I thought were after Sedgar/Wolf joined earlier, then Wolf can ORKO them with an energy drop. If they're less durable, so can Sedgar, and Wolf can without. They'd have to be a lot less durable for Sheema, though. Of course, if they miss a shot, down they go, so that's probably not the best idea.

Also, if Sedgar/Wolf go Sniper, they've got every single bow available to them. Assuming that we're going with hard mode having been beaten before. If not, then nevermind.

Edit: If you give Sniper!Wolf a level, he's got a 60% chance at 17 STR (assuming Sniper growths haven't changed.) Again, he'd want a hit forge on the bow, though.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Slize

[Renall]

Maybe it's me, but it feels like there's gonna be some huge tier gap jumps. Top/High is basically everyone who isn't a liability, Mids for people who are less good but not bad and semi-useful prepromos, and Low/Bottom for basically everyone else who simply cannot ever be viably used for one reason or another. The gulf will be wide and moving up a tier gap seems almost insurmountable (there's just going to be so much chaff that will never accomplish anything on Lunatic).

[Dat Nick]

That's nothing new. Tier gaps were pretty big in FEDS, too.

EDIT: ...Not to fuck over my own argument or anything, but Ari, doesn't Sheema have Auto-A as Sniper? Absolute base stats page lists her WEXP has 135 Bow...Although, All-reclass would negate this point anyway (Zag has better overall absolute bases than Sheema and still has A Bows)

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Renall]

It seems vastly worse for Lunatic than H5, which makes sense as Lunatic is vastly more sadistic than even H5.

[Rewjeo]

Wait... Partia has 18 MT. 18x3-14=40. It only takes 11 STR from their to OHKO the flying dragons. Sniper has 7 base STR. A bows gives 2 MT. It only takes two base STR and 120 Bow WEXP to OHKO Flying Dragons as a Sniper. That means Sedgar, Wolf, and Sheema can all do it. But Sheema can grap Parthia for flying enemies before them.

[Dat Nick]

That's true. But what flying enemies exist in-between her jointime and Zag? A few dracos? I'm not wasting Partia shots on THOSE.

[Rewjeo]

True. But either way, they're basically the same once they're all there.

[Dat Nick]

Not true, actually. Know how you said you need 11 str to OHKO dragons with Partia? Sniper!Sheema has 10 base str.

And if somebody else wants Partia, Sheema can't cop-out to Horseman and retain dragon-ORKOing with Brave Bow.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Rewjeo]

A bows gives 2 ATK.

Neither can Sedgar without an energy drop, and 40% of the time Wolf won't be able to either. So, if her availability lead actually does something, she might be better. Of course, if she isn't doing much before they show up, then she's still worse than them.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Slize

[Dat Nick]

Oh, you were excluding weapon rank boosts. Okay. Horseman-cop out still stands, but as I said, I'm perfectly acceptable with it only meaning them being one slot above her.

[Rewjeo]

With Parthia, you only need an absolute base strength of 2. Besides classes whose main function isn't fighting, only Rody and Cecil could ever possibly be unable to OHKO them with Parthia. And that would require them to never, ever get STR in a level up.

And, speaking of Parthia on fliers, Jeorge has 12 base STR and A Bows. This gives him 50 effective ATK with a silver bow on a flier. How's that doing for the dragon valley flying dragons? And when is that inadequate for OHKOing flying humans? If he can keep up anti-flier utility for long enough without Parthia to be able to use it in the last few chapters freely, he might get pretty high.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Slize