Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Paperblade]

Bottom tier is just going to be everyone who joins up, gives free silver weapons, and is then benched/fed to wolves.

In other news

Edit: Silver Bow Jeorge can't even OHKO Flying Dragons in chapter 11. He might be able to in Ch. 9 though

Edited July 20, 2010 by Paperblade

[AstraLunaSol]

In other news

.......................That's chapter 19 if you let it screw you isn't it?

[Rewjeo]

Imagine that when the enemies get to move first!

Hmm, is he close enough to it that small forge could get him to OHKO? Silver Bow forges that early on are expensive, so I do mean a small one.

[grandjackal]

Hey, speaking of that portion that's unlocked after various modes, there was that one bit mentioned about how after a certain playthrough, males can switch freely between A and B class. If that's the case, could be worth checking out how people could handle these new classes available to them.

General Base Belf: 45 HP, 17 Str, 16 Skl, 10 Spd, 8 Lck, 20 Def, 3 Res B Lances, E Bows

It's still sorta pitiful, but with speed shards he can avoid getting doubled by barbarians, getting 3-4RKOd by them. Thieves come in the next chapter after he joins, they have about 30 might. Cancel out the rank bonus, they only do 7x2 damage to him, allowing him 4RKOd via 7HKO. This means he could be crit'd twice and still live. He's also got access to Silver, giving him a very respectable 31+1 from rank damage. While Ice Dragons would still double him, they don't ORKO him so he can still get a shot off with a Dragonpike with reletive safety if the need calls for it. You can bolster his durability further with the defense shards on thieves if you wanted since he's gonna be doubled anyways. +3 Def from Cancer and Taurus, that's 4 damage a shot, 6RKO via 12HKO. He could take 3 more shots after 3 crits, and dragons would 4HKO though still 2RKO. Barbarians wouldn't change much.

Problem is coming back to the mainland, where most paladins 2RKO him, though if he can manage to OHKO with Ridersbane (problem being it would need a forging), he'd be 3RKOd. If he got 3 levels before then, he'd have roughly 47 HP and 21 Def. With the Star Orb, he'd be 4HKOd though still 2RKOd. If he's OHKOing with the Ridersbane however, that's essentially allowing him an extra kill.

...Not sure howeffective that is though, but General does help him out. Problem is, is this worth the seal? Cause I still think Raiden's more worth it.

Honestly not sure how to fix Robert. Best I can think of is that Swordmaster allows him access to Dragonslayers, though he can't double even ice dragons since he's 1 speed shy with his 20 base speed, he'd need a speed shard. He'd be able to double barbarians with...I THINK B rank swords. He might be a bit shy of that though. Regardless, my belief is that Robert's got the most problems here.

EDIT: Woops, said Belf has B Silver as a general! My bad, I thought he started with C rank lances. Still, he'd have about 28 might. I can't imagine that being bad on thieves.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Big Klingy]

Maybe it's me, but it feels like there's gonna be some huge tier gap jumps. Top/High is basically everyone who isn't a liability, Mids for people who are less good but not bad and semi-useful prepromos, and Low/Bottom for basically everyone else who simply cannot ever be viably used for one reason or another. The gulf will be wide and moving up a tier gap seems almost insurmountable (there's just going to be so much chaff that will never accomplish anything on Lunatic).

This is exactly why there should be seperate tier lists for loony mode and non-loony mode. That or the merits of individual characters should not be judged assuming loony mode, because some characters who are decent for normal play are rendered near useless on this mode. (Barst?)

Also, what about Merric? He joins much later than Linde (but has some time in the prologue) and has Excalibur for flying dragons. However, he'll probably die horribly if they so much as touch him.

[Tables]

I suspect that, at some point, a Manic mode tier list will appear as well - that's hard, but not so hard to make some characters pretty worthless (well, maybe some, but whatever)

[Dat Nick]

Also, what about Merric? He joins much later than Linde (but has some time in the prologue) and has Excalibur for flying dragons. However, he'll probably die horribly if they so much as touch him.

It doesn't change that his ability to one-shot them is quite useful (although, Etzel is better for now).

You just need to use somebody else as bait.

And no, Barst wouldn't be an example. Barst has fairly good base stats.

And no, even on Lunatic, there's varying levels of useless. For instance, Sheema just shows up at the end of the chapter, but Dolph and Maccelan are forced for their join chapters (giving them use even if you decide to sacrifice them) They suck, but can still provide utility for not consuming a slot. Thomas's village can be visited on Turn 1 and you've got more than a few dracos to deal with too; so even though he's not OHKOing, I wouldn't say he's not worth Marth going out of his way for one turn. Then there's idiots like Matthis who we need to go far out of our way for and don't give anything in return. At least we don't need to bend over backwards for Sheema (although I'd truly argue the EXP from killing Sheema>Sheema herself)

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

You just need to use somebody else as bait.

lulz Cecil

[grandjackal]

It doesn't change that his ability to one-shot them is quite useful (although, Etzel is better for now).

You just need to use somebody else as bait.

Funny thing is, I could switch Elleraen over to DM for +2 Def, give him the defense shards and toss him an Arms Scroll. Maric needs to get 2 HP and 1 Def to be able to do this, since Elleraen barely pulls this off himself with said resources.

However, both sort of fall flat on their face when we got Etzel around.

[Dat Nick]

Funny thing is, I could switch Elleraen over to DM for +2 Def, give him the defense shards and toss him an Arms Scroll. Maric needs to get 2 HP and 1 Def to be able to do this, since Elleraen barely pulls this off himself with said resources.

...Did I say Elran sucked or something? Although, other people would like those defense shards and arms scrolls, to get better bow ranks for instance. I'm not saying it's not a worthy investment to do so, but hell, I could give Maric a dracoshield or the defense shards (or do you mean even if Maric got the shards and shit) and all he'd need to do to take a Dragon hit is an HP proc in the prologue.

[Paperblade]

It doesn't change that his ability to one-shot them is quite useful (although, Etzel is better for now).

You just need to use somebody else as bait.

And no, Barst wouldn't be an example. Barst has fairly good base stats.

And no, even on Lunatic, there's varying levels of useless. For instance, Sheema just shows up at the end of the chapter, but Dolph and Maccelan are forced for their join chapters (giving them use even if you decide to sacrifice them) They suck, but can still provide utility for not consuming a slot. Thomas's village can be visited on Turn 1 and you've got more than a few dracos to deal with too; so even though he's not OHKOing, I wouldn't say he's not worth Marth going out of his way for one turn. Then there's idiots like Matthis who we need to go far out of our way for and don't give anything in return. At least we don't need to bend over backwards for Sheema (although I'd truly argue the EXP from killing Sheema>Sheema herself)

If you visit Tomas's village on turn 1 you better prepare for a game over screen, since there's 3 Dracos within attack range of it ready to swarm you that are just out of range of 2 range (and I have not seen any player attainable Longbows).

He does help with the reinforcements though.

[Colonel M]

Ah yes, I also missed something that I had to chuckle about:

Okeydoke then. Unless thief utility is that vital (and really, you'll probably waste as many turns trying to recruit Julian as you will nabbing chests), down goes Julian.

Chapter 6

Since no Rickard, this means that we have to give Marth a door key to get that chest, then have him grab the other two chests. With Julian, you just have him go fetch Rickard and get the other two chests. Fairly simple assignment for Julian here.

Chapter 9

Village and the two Chests in the south end of the map.

Chapter 12 is optional, but having two Thieves get the chests frees up Thief Staff use. Chapter 13 isn't a terrible idea either since there's a chest that's out of the way from Marth seizing the throne. And then Chapter 14, from what I recall, has a lot of chests. That's all I know from the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that adds up to more than 10 turns.

By the way, I glanced at FEWOD's database and didn't see a single shop that sold Chest Keys, before you throw that out there.

So, I will ask this question without taking your "wording out of context" bblade; What are you implying with Julian in that statement? Also, for anyone reading this; has anyone tried going across the Bridge in Chapter 3 in Lunatic Mode?

I also glanced at Draug's bases and growths. I think Fighter and Pirate are his choices of play here. Hunter looks appealing because it can avoid counterattacks, but Fighter has the merits of the tied speed or going Pirate for +2 Spd on him. I'd wait to see what the base growths are for the class before I make a statement, but I think Draug might be able to scrap himself Mid minimum, perhaps even Upper Mid if his Spd growth progresses a lot. Hunter vs. Fighter is really the draw breaker here, but I think Fighter might do a little better overall.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Draug can't really afford to both hunter and fighter, though. Given his lack of starting weapon EXP in bows and axes, you have to pick one and stick with it.

In which case, I think fighter is the way to go. His durability is suspect in the first couple of chapters, but like you said, he has plenty of opportunity for growth and then gets a free +2 spd when he gets out of his earlygame durability rut.

[Deliriyum]

Draug can't really afford to both hunter and fighter, though. Given his lack of starting weapon EXP in bows and axes, you have to pick one and stick with it.

In which case, I think fighter is the way to go. His durability is suspect in the first couple of chapters, but like you said, he has plenty of opportunity for growth and then gets a free +2 spd when he gets out of his earlygame durability rut.

Then post promotion, make him Berszerker because he can actually fill out the 30 speed cap.

[Momo]

*stuff bout Julian*

Can't you just let enemy thieves take all that stuff? I dunno if they appear on every map with chests in this game, but if they do, Julian is unneeded.

[Colonel M]

Can't you just let enemy thieves take all that stuff? I dunno if they appear on every map with chests in this game, but if they do, Julian is unneeded.

No Thieves Here

There's 3 here, but 2 are trapped in the sand

No Thieves

Then we have to still prove the Bridge is possible.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Colonel M

[Momo]

None of those links seem to go anywhere, what chapters are they?

[Colonel M]

Oh yes, I forgot that was the translated page. *Facepalms*.

Chapters 6, 9, and 10.

EDIT: Here.

Chapter 6. Only Rickard is the Thief.

Chapter 9. Two Thieves are trapped in the sand.

Chapter 10. No Thieves.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Colonel M

[Paperblade]

Then post promotion, make him Berszerker because he can actually fill out the 30 speed cap.

Zerker speed cap is 28.

Also, lol@skipping Julian. Have fun wasting a dozen turns each chapter waiting for Marth to open chests.

[Momo]

Chapter 6: Rickard is right there, does he just ignore chests?

Chapter 9: This is littered with thieves, do they ALSO ignore them?

Chapter 10: Thief staff, you don't even need to get all the chests. One's silence, one's a builion (you'll want that one) one's that door-opening staff, and the last is a Physic. Are you really going to have Julian and Rickard run aaaaaall the way around that entire level, just to get them?

[Dat Nick]

So, I will ask this question without taking your "wording out of context" bblade; What are you implying with Julian in that statement?

Yep, here you go again, only it's crystal clear this time; so crystal clear, I'm shocked even YOU strawmanned it.

Unless thief utility is that vital

UNLESS. Signifying doubt. Nothing conclusive. I did not go into detail that theif utility WAS useless. I said Julian had a cost to overcome. I did not ONCE say he couldn't overcome it. I said he would need to drop if he did not justify that cost. Nowhere in the post that I made does it say "Julian is worthless because he cannot overcome his opportunity cost". NO WHERE!

Also: PROBABLY. NOT guaranteed. You waste turns running towards Julian's village. You waste turns running around collecting chests. That's just obvious. The question is which wastes more turns? Yes, I said probably Julian; I did NOT say definitely.

That's it. I've had enough. I HAVE HAD E-FUCKING-NOUGH. Do you know what you are? Do you know why you blow every single statement I make massively out of context? No, it's not because you're stupid. Nobody could be this fucking stupid. Nobody could think Cav!Ryan is a good unit. Nobody could think arguing a unit better than Sheema is hype. Et cetera. I've got two possibilities: A: You're a coward, and you cannot win against me in a straight-up debate, so you resort to blowing every last statement I make far out of context to give you a head up (or at least, in your own mind. If you were actually a good debater and COULD beat me in a straight-up fight? I've seen nothing indicating this fact, so I will discard that theory.) or B: You, along with he rest of #feto, is still sour at me over past incidents, and thus takes great pleasure in laughing at ridiculous things I said; even if it was not me whom said them, but rather the completely ridiculous Colonel-M filter that is horribly biased towards me, as he has proven time and time again. Ari, please tell me you see something here. You're a smart guy. You can definitely see that he has gone over the top with straw-manning me on several occasions in this topic. And I'm tired of it. If you're not going to boot him out of the thread (I would love that, I would absolutely fucking LOVE that, but you haven't done that to Slize who you actually seemed annoyed with so there's no way you're going to do that just for me), please, have a few words with him, because I am really getting sick of having my arguments blown out of proportion again and again just so #feto has something to laugh at. (that does not correspond with my actual opinion)

Edited July 21, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[CO_Fimbulvetr]

I think the idea for 10 would be to use Julian for the middle two (Physic and the bullion) and if it would be useful, grab the Silence with the Thief staff. Not using a Thief is so incredibly stupid I can't believe you're considering it an option.

[grandjackal]

When we speak of Draug, I actually have to wonder if he would prefer going Hunter-Horseman here, since lategame looks like it's actually going to matter for a change. That is, unless anyone can find a way to warpskip through Hardin, Gharnef's wizardly bunch and Trollius. Unless we find a way to manage that, I think Draug's gonna want that 30 speed cap.

Benefit of bows is that he's still free to fall back on General for the durability until the need calls for him to switch it up.

That, and there's still the thought of what we do with the orb shards, as in who's best with what orb set-up.

[Colonel M]

Chapter 6: Rickard is right there, does he just ignore chests?

I'm not 100% sure if he even moves. In FEDS, he didn't. I usually recruited Rickard in Chapter 5 anyway, so I can't really be certain on this one.

Chapter 9: This is littered with thieves, do they ALSO ignore them?

That's not the point. There's two trapped in the desert, which means it's going to take an extra turn or two for them to get to the chests. If you can kill the Thief that's on the way, Julian can take those chests and just twiddle his thumbs for a while.

Chapter 10: Thief staff, you don't even need to get all the chests. One's silence, one's a builion (you'll want that one) one's that door-opening staff, and the last is a Physic. Are you really going to have Julian and Rickard run aaaaaall the way around that entire level, just to get them?

I'd take 3/4 of those (Unlock is iffy) but even Unlock gives free EXP for the most part. Wasting 3-4 Thief Staff uses doesn't sound like a plan when there's treasures that you likely want later on in the game. Hammerne also appears to have 3 uses and Thief Staff has 5.

Unless thief utility is that vital

Even though you based this off of speculation, the major point was; come on, seriously? Walking without a Thief? You wouldn't even do this in FEDS ffs. You notice that FEWOD had no Chest Keys there, and that you can't use the Thief Staff forever. You even played Normal Mode and should've known this.

A: You're a coward, and you cannot win against me in a straight-up debate, so you resort to blowing every last statement I make far out of context to give you a head up (or at least, in your own mind. If you were actually a good debater and COULD beat me in a straight-up fight? I've seen nothing indicating this fact, so I will discard that theory.)

Wait a minute. I seem to recall winning two debates against you; one where I used Dolph. Lol Dolph. Don't even come tell me that I "can't win a debate without strawman"; you have to do it half the time to make an irrelevant point.

EDIT: Missed this:

When we speak of Draug, I actually have to wonder if he would prefer going Hunter-Horseman here, since lategame looks like it's actually going to matter for a change. That is, unless anyone can find a way to warpskip through Hardin, Gharnef's wizardly bunch and Trollius. Unless we find a way to manage that, I think Draug's gonna want that 30 speed cap.

You probably want Berserker anyway. While it whiffs some of the enemies, he's actually got a good Spd growth to reach his cap. Not to mention his weapon ranks issue is pretty high and Fighter seems pretty clutch for Chapter 1 and Pirate for Chapter 3.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Colonel M

[Momo]

I originally said that as to say "Punishing people for their recruitment is not a good idea", but then people kind of ran with it. Now we're here.

edit:

Chapter 6: If we don't know if Rickard moves, then we also don't know if we need Julian or not.

Chapter 9: What if you had Julian? He would run over, take about 4 turns to get the chests, and then be useless. You're not gonna be using the stuff he gets immediately, so why not just have someone wait for the thieves to get them?

Chapter 10: Treasures such as?

Edited July 21, 2010 by A boy named Sal