Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[AstraLunaSol]

*tier thing*

How is Merric below all the healers when he has Excalibur.

[Colonel M]

Never said he could never get the Armorslayer. I said it's in high demand and he doesn't do well with it. There's a huge difference. Also, how often do you really expect Cain to be healed? That's a lot of enemies for someone who is 2RKO'd by all of them and is in an extremely crowded bridge area.

With it being crowded, it can be easier to protect him. Also, in regards to him hitting them; Cain can take the Leo Shard and we can forge +4 Mt on the Armorslayer instead of 3, then have Linde take Gemini. Now we have 33 effective Mt, 20 damage with Aura, which means that the General would be left with 2 HP (50 HP | 15 Def | 3 Res) and Leo should handle that, which you get in the chapter. I'll admit it's a stretch, but he could at least net a level especially if he has extra EXP from P-8.

I'll admit it's hard to assume that he delivers the final blow constantly since there's only 5 of them, and I'm not trying to say Cain is good, but certainly salvageable. Darros and Minerva certainly beat him in the short term, for sure.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Secondly, Cain is not better than Minerva. No way.

You're right:

10/1 Draco Cain: 29.9 HP, 14.4 Str, 12.7 Skl, 11.7 Spd, 4.7 Lck, 14 Def

Base Minerva: 32 HP, 13 Str, 12 Skl, 15 Spd, 11 Lck, 16 Def

Can you say blowout? Not to mention Minerva's C Lances and A Axes to Cain's D Lances and E Axes

Growth wise:

They tie HP growth

Minerva has +15% strength growth

Cain has +5% skill growth

Cain has +35% speed growth

Cain has +10% luck growth

They die def growth

Cain doesn't tie Minerva's speed for about 10 levels and the only advantage he'll ever have before that is in skill.

Its a blowout, Minerva is clearly superior to Cain. Cain will have a higher sword rank if they both want to go Paladin or Swordmaster, but Minerva's advantages in every other category more then make up for this.

EDIT: I think bblade and SDS are planning on making tier lists for this game actually, Sploosh.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Sploosh]

Haha it's fine. It's just a rough draft anyways.

Should Minerva be better than Frey/Oguma/Nabarl since they're so similar anyways? Yeah, I do feel like she's really good.

Where does everyone think healers should go?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sploosh

[_____]

With it being crowded, it can be easier to protect him. Also, in regards to him hitting them; Cain can take the Leo Shard and we can forge +4 Mt on the Armorslayer instead of 3, then have Linde take Gemini. Now we have 33 effective Mt, 20 damage with Aura, which means that the General would be left with 2 HP (50 HP | 15 Def | 3 Res) and Leo should handle that, which you get in the chapter. I'll admit it's a stretch, but he could at least net a level especially if he has extra EXP from P-8.

Now that's really farfetched it, Colonel.

Cain can probably get an extra level if you favor him, though, but it doesn't really help him, anyway, so I don't why why we're arguing this.

I'll admit it's hard to assume that he delivers the final blow constantly since there's only 5 of them, and I'm not trying to say Cain is good, but certainly salvageable. Darros and Minerva certainly beat him in the short term, for sure.

But salvagable compared to whom? He's better than the Sable Knights, sure, (I would argue it's not by much, though), and probably better than the other prepromoted failures (Horace, Samson, Sheema, etc.), but that's not really saying much.

You're right:

10/1 Draco Cain: 29.9 HP, 14.4 Str, 12.7 Skl, 11.7 Spd, 4.7 Lck, 14 Def

Base Minerva: 32 HP, 13 Str, 12 Skl, 15 Spd, 11 Lck, 16 Def

Can you say blowout? Not to mention Minerva's C Lances and A Axes to Cain's D Lances and E Axes

Growth wise:

They tie HP growth

Minerva has +15% strength growth

Cain has +5% skill growth

Cain has +35% speed growth

Cain has +10% luck growth

They die def growth

Cain doesn't tie Minerva's speed for about 10 levels and the only advantage he'll ever have before that is in skill.

Its a blowout, Minerva is clearly superior to Cain. Cain will have a higher sword rank if they both want to go Paladin or Swordmaster, but Minerva's advantages in every other category more then make up for this.

Actually, if we're taking away reclassing limits, Hero Minerva really isn't that bad. 36 HP, 11 Strength (ehhhhhhh), 19 Speed, 13 Defense. It's not gamebreaking or anything, but I think it's a decent counter to Cain possibly going Swordmaster, and she does get to keep her Axe rank for the most part.

[Colonel M]

Malliesia definitely deserves to be the highest of the healers, if only because Hammerne and Rescue fit nicely on her and she's Hammerne-exclusive it seems. My question is if Minerva beats Wendell.

Now that's really farfetched it, Colonel.

Cain can probably get an extra level if you favor him, though, but it doesn't really help him, anyway, so I don't why why we're arguing this.

Well, after looking at the map closely, I backed away from two levels. A level should be very possible though if he gets a kill, and even though the setup is rigid it is far from impossible.

But salvagable compared to whom? He's better than the Sable Knights, sure, (I would argue it's not by much, though), and probably better than the other prepromoted failures (Horace, Samson, Sheema, etc.), but that's not really saying much.

I just mean that he's probably hitting near Mid's standards, maybe Upper Mid at the best. I won't lie about Cain being pretty mediocre in this game; it obviously shows in his joining chapter on.

Actually, if we're taking away reclassing limits, Hero Minerva really isn't that bad. 36 HP, 11 Strength (ehhhhhhh), 19 Speed, 13 Defense. It's not gamebreaking or anything, but I think it's a decent counter to Cain possibly going Swordmaster, and she does get to keep her Axe rank for the most part.

IIRC, Minerva can't become a Hero, and she still has Lady Sword to counteract Cain anyway.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Actually, if we're taking away reclassing limits, Hero Minerva really isn't that bad. 36 HP, 11 Strength (ehhhhhhh), 19 Speed, 13 Defense. It's not gamebreaking or anything, but I think it's a decent counter to Cain possibly going Swordmaster, and she does get to keep her Axe rank for the most part.

Minerva is not a man.

[Sploosh]

Females get Hero?

[Emperor Hardin]

Arran's growths any better at all? Is he still one of the worst of Jeigans or is he usable midgame?

[Deliriyum]

Arran's growths any better at all? Is he still one of the worst of Jeigans or is he usable midgame?

Growths? What growths? He has 0 character growths in everything but luck. He relies on class growths completely.

[Colonel M]

Arran's growths any better at all? Is he still one of the worst of Jeigans or is he usable midgame?

He's pretty much stuck with class growths. Due to being Class A he has some use for a while, but past Chapter 10 perhaps is likely his ending point.

[grandjackal]

Let's also not forget that even if she does go Swordmaster, she will have a bare minimum of C (Because why would she ever wanna go paladin?). Considering when we get her, C rank is just right, though silver for the bandits would have been appreciated.

In fact, as a Swordmaster she has a base 21 AS. Doubles barbarians and ice dragons alike.

Lower mid. You're hilarious.

Also, how does Est double things when she has 13 AS, which is not consistant since bandits can proc speed. 20 HP and 8 Def gets OHKOd by a silver axe bandit, and of course the archer. With only 6 Str, she should be losing offense to Cecile by now. Considering that Cain's 10 AS avoids doubles from the thieves as well and he's overall tougher, her only advantage over him is that she can double on occasion. Cain with an iron sword has an effective 16+1 might (same might as with lances I believe), doing 15-13 damage to thieves with a lance while taking 9 damage in return form the silver thief (a 3RKO unless he procs HP, then it's 4RKO), about 13 damage to bandits, and 15 damage to the archer and mage. Est with her 13 ATK does less damage to thieves, about 9x2 damage ti bandits, 11x2 damage to the archer, actually ORKOs the mage, and 2RKOs the boss while Cain is just 1 Str shy of doing the same (of which he could proc during this time).

So Cain's got a durability advantage while not doing that much less damage, though Est does have a somewhat existing offense lead (trades thieves for bandits (though one kind OHKOs her), the archer, most certainly the mage she ORKOs and possibly the boss if Cain doesn't proc Str).

[AstraLunaSol]

Growths? What growths? He has 0 character growths in everything but luck. He relies on class growths completely.

And to think that he had 10's in everything minus luck(0) and res(3)

Now he has 0 base everything and 10 luck

IS is trolling us.

[Emperor Hardin]

Growths? What growths? He has 0 character growths in everything but luck. He relies on class growths completely.

Even Jagen had better growths then that! I think its even worse then his growths in the original book 2. IS is going back to pure Jeigans.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Emperor Hardin

[grandjackal]

And to think that he had 10's in everything minus luck(0) and res(3)

Now he has 0 base everything and 10 luck

IS is trolling us.

Considering that now he's actually the king of rock early on rather than a jeigen that's out-jeigen'd by one of the units he's jeigening for, I'd say it's fair that he's not useful later on for how epic he is early on.

[Sploosh]

Well...I'm pretty much convinced that Minerva is really good. Would she be better than the likes of Nabarl/Oguma/Frey too? I think she'd be better than Wendell too; she can last the whole game while Wendell can be replaced by Etzel when he comes.

Females seem to dominate this game.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sploosh

[CassieCinders]

Well...I'm pretty much convinced that Minerva is really good. Would she be better than the likes of Nabarl/Oguma/Frey too? I think she'd be better than Wendell too; she can last the whole game while Wendell can be replaced by Etzel when he comes.

Females seem to dominate this game.

@Bold: Did you REALLY bring up Wendell here? SERIOUSLY? But anyway, thank you Mr. Obvious.

[Don Draper]

Minerva vs. Sirius (both as Draco's for simplicities sake):

Base Minerva: 32 HP, 13 Str, 12 Skl, 15 Spd, 11 Lck, 16 Def

4 Sirius: 28.55 HP, 14.8 Str, 15.65 Skl, 14.95 Spd, 5.8 Lck, 14.35 Def

Growths:

Sirius has +5% HP growth

Sirius has +10% Str growth

Minerva has +5% Skl growth

Sirius has +15% Spd growth

They tie Lck growth

Sirius has +15% Def growth

I didn't think this would be such a landslide victory for Sirius :S

[_____]

IIRC, Minerva can't become a Hero, and she still has Lady Sword to counteract Cain anyway.

Minerva is not a man.

Females get Hero?

I get it, I get it. I forgot females had a seperate class set.

[grandjackal]

Minerva vs. Sirius (both as Draco's for simplicities sake):

Base Minerva: 32 HP, 13 Str, 12 Skl, 15 Spd, 11 Lck, 16 Def

4 Sirius: 28.55 HP, 14.8 Str, 15.65 Skl, 14.95 Spd, 5.8 Lck, 14.35 Def

Growths:

Sirius has +5% HP growth

Sirius has +10% Str growth

Minerva has +5% Skl growth

Sirius has +15% Spd growth

They tie Lck growth

Sirius has +15% Def growth

I didn't think this would be such a landslide victory for Sirius :S

You forgot A Axes to go with that.

But I have to ask, how many levels are we expecting Maric to get in the prologue?

[Don Draper]

You forgot A Axes to go with that.

But I have to ask, how many levels are we expecting Maric to get in the prologue?

Sirius has A Lances, so its not like he's at a huge disadvantage. This game isn't swarming with lance users, so axe rank isn't as important.

I don't expect Maric to get more then one level. He's more useful as a chipper since he can do it without taking a counter. Therefore, he probably isn't getting very many kills.

[grandjackal]

I don't expect Maric to get more then one level. He's more useful as a chipper since he can do it without taking a counter. Therefore, he probably isn't getting very many kills.

Maric's pretty much boned then. He can't survive a flying dragon attack to counter with Excalibur without stat boosters of some sort. Etzel can do it at base, and if we're considering the "males get access to A and B classes", Elleraen can switch to DM for +2 Def, slap the defense shards on him and he can also survive said dragons. He'd need a weapon's scroll for Excalibur, but I can't think of anyone who's using it anyways. Scroll I feel would be in less demand than a robe or a shield.

[_____]

So, Dice. I don't really know what to think of him. He's basically a worse Darros that takes up a Seal, but 16 AS means he isn't really doubled by non-Flying Dragons/Thieves until Chapter 15, iirc, and he's got 6 chapters in between. 40% Speed growth as a Hero isn't doing him much favors, though.

[Don Draper]

Maric's pretty much boned then. He can't survive a flying dragon attack to counter with Excalibur without stat boosters of some sort. Etzel can do it at base, and if we're considering the "males get access to A and B classes", Elleraen can switch to DM for +2 Def, slap the defense shards on him and he can also survive said dragons. He'd need a weapon's scroll for Excalibur, but I can't think of anyone who's using it anyways. Scroll I feel would be in less demand than a robe or a shield.

They have 32 Attack, and 10/1 Sage Merric has 30 HP/8 Def. He'll survive.

[Sploosh]

@Bold: Did you REALLY bring up Wendell here? SERIOUSLY? But anyway, thank you Mr. Obvious.

No no. It's because Colonel M asked :P