H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[grandjackal]

ahahahha Catrria and Luke are not good, very funny man. very funny

Luke I've had my doubts even when I first used him. Catria I'm just not a fan of her start, but I conceded in the same post that Catria is good anyways (note I said Catria gets away with...Something). Luke though is honestly nothing special and would say he's merely usable.

Actually Linde is balls at using Nosferatu even with an Robe despite what you and SDS claim. If Linde takes an attack on an enemy phase, she is usually left with a sliver of health left and her damage is not enough to take a second blow. This does not only apply to Dracoknights by the way. Every enemy with Silver or a forge (read: nealy all of them) is going to do this. The only thing that Linde is able to Nosferatu tank against is Javelin Cavs/Knights. Maybe Hunters.

First off I'm not claiming a thing, I'm merely pointing out how your reasoning for your arguments can be flawed. Secondly, you're being a bit dense here. Let's take generally anyone else's enemy phase and it is the same as what you just stated. Difference being Linde can then go hit something else, because her weapon is 1-2 range. She can still function while most other people have to retreat to heal or limit themselves to taking a kill. Notice how Resire wasn't really mentioned (at least I never mentioned it). Resire is a pleasant icing for when you need to chip something and then allow Linde the positional freedom to take a hit if needed (and at the proper health, probably the only situation she'd need actual healing attention). Yes this isn't ORKOing things or having an actual enemy phase in this game, but this performance is more flexible than most.

Base Catria w/Rainbow Potion and Steel Lance does the exact same damage that Linde does with Aura. 7/0 Luke can also do so as a Pirate or Mercenary w/Rainbow Potion can also do so. Catria and Pirate Luke can also contribute to the 2nd half of Chapter 3 by the way because of their class's mobility. Also Linde does not have any sort of durability advantage like you claim because as I said earlier, Linde cannot heal enough HP back with Nosferatu to survive another round.

The difference being that they can't contribute more damage after the enemy phase, to which Linde isn't limited to thanks to 1-2 range.

I think there is also a misunderstanding here, namely you think that this early SDS is saying we're already Nosferatanking, which is stupid. The fact she can syphon health to heal up without need of a staff's attention is good, but it's a bit early to be talking about Nosferatanking when you have 8 speed.

As for chapter 3, define this later portion you speak of. You take the bridge, or the dumb and much slower way around?

I am accusing you and SDS of sandbagging because that is exactly what your are doing. You are hyping Linde up because she can take a hit and do around 20 damage to something on an enemy phase and then proceed to shit on units who can do the exact same thing without needing to take a Robe to do so.

WHO is getting sandbagged here? I know sandbag is a word, but unless you tell me who is getting sandbagged, I'm going to have to assume you're just blabbering.

Also, the only real reasoning being put to use here is how one can make 1-2 range work, which you seem to just ignore. I mean, if you want to ram Linde's face at melee range during the player phase, be my guest.

As I said, Linde has the same healing problem that all these units have.

If I can do reliable accurate damage form 2 range, why is there an emergency to heal Linde right away? Even if Linde gets hit and we never heal her, she can still do damage throughout the chapter because she can attack from 2 range. Since she can patiently wait her turn to heal/heal herself off with occasional uses of Resire, then no, she does not have the same healing problem.

How about you read the post? SDS claimed that only a "ridiculous Fighter/Armor MU build" could compare to Linde's damage output. I was clarifying that this was not the case. In fact, I listed other units besides various MUs such as Draug and Rody.

I think that was a an exaggeration on his part, seeing as MU's damage output puts all to shame since he's one of the few that can actually manage a durability lead. Regardless, you only gave me raw numbers without thinking of implications. Namely, how Aura allows Linde to do more damage to Dracos, or how this damage can allow bigger units to take on bigger fish since now weaker units can gum things down, nor does she have to at times avoid combat in order to not die thanks to 2 range so her combat is more consistent. The avoided counters mean that a unit can kill along with healthily take on the enemy phase if there is one, or allows said units to move out further as they aren't wounded. I mean, it's nice to think that Luke and Draug are doubling everything when in reality they're only doubling the slowest things out there, but you have to think a little broader than just the basic numbers.

On the first wave, Sheeda can OHKO one of the cavs with a forge. Sirius can 2HKO them and can even ORKO the 11 AS ones a rainbow potion use. Marth can dish out heavy damage with a Rapier, either setting up a kill for someone else or finishing off a paritally weakened one. Palla is one-rounding with Silver and Arran 2HKOs. You also have Barst to help out with chipping. I wouldn't say Linde is unhelpful here, but you are overestimating the threat of the cavaliers. I'll admit she is useful for helping to set up a kill for Marth, Catria, or our Altean cav.

Sirius has much better things to do, and Linde helps take the weight off his shoulders. Linde helps us save a use on that Spear Wing forge, if we even need to forge it. I'd also not rely on Barst, as I don't think he does anywhere near the same damage even with a weaker tome, and that acc against what I remember being a majority of sword using cavs. Also, I think Linde might be able to more freely move in the case of the mages, since she can survive and then attack back at them.

Aura only has 25 uses and you do not get a replacement until Chapter 20x. The Aura chip saves no Wing Spear uses (since the forge can OHKO) and only one Armorslayer use. Btw she'd be in range of the stonehoist ballista and if one hits her, she can't heal back the damage that a Javelin armor would do to her. I guess if you kill the boss and the the stonehoist ballista fast enough its not so much of a problem though.

I mentined Armors for chapter 6. Not sure why you thought up 5.

Lidne is likely going to be chipping one enemy and then blocking a fort. That's not bad persay but she's not going to able to do anything for the rest chapter.

Well, chapter 4 overall is very short, and mostly the only members who can help the starting area and then head northeast are Arran, Palla and vaguely Catria. I'd say the contribution is still sizeable.

IIRC, you do not even need to kill the Hero in this chapter. Her chip is kind of helpful I guess, though not for the reasons you're claiming.

Well hey, whatever works. Point being, she helps in chapter 6.

Linde gets raped if she even steps in range of one dracoknight. These guys are pretty hard to kill btw without MU, a sniper with a Steel Forge, or MU. She is much better against mages is she gets the gets Aquarius, a magic boosting shard and a Pure Water though.

Why are you letting things with 20 AS and flight get away with this shit? That was the point I was trying to make. As for how to deal with them, you have George who can have silver or his trusty Parthia, one of the few that can deal with them at melee (MU, Palla and Sirius). Basically the idea is to get aggressive.

Castor actually because the Killer Bow is a better weapon. Plus you're probably going to be burning a rescue charge in Chapter 4 anyway so you might as well just recruit him.

If we're using this magical steel forge, then what is the point of the killer bow?

You cannot penalize Ryan for the forge because even if we don't use Ryan, the forge will still exist.

Why do you think I said give it to Gordon? There is also the fact that forges in general are luxurious, but that's another argument.

But Ryan has uses besides simply chipping an enemy. For one, he is capable of OHKOing flying enemies and his strength growth is pretty high. This is pretty significant even as late as the valley because Dracoknights and Wyverns are a giant bitch and you're going to want to kill them as quickly as possible. Ryan is also a little more flexible in his class selection too. For example, Ryan likes Swordmaster because of its speed and because it can help him build up his sword rank for Horseman.

This is true, though I disagree with the swordmaster thing.

btw its important to note the costs of the robe we're getting Linde. First off, Linde is in competition with Cecile, who probably gets a greater benefit out of it than Linde does. For one, it means Cecile no longer gets OHKOd by things, meaning she can frontline about as well as Luke and Rody. Not only that, Cecile is fast and mobile unlike Linde. Not only does she have access to the Lady Sword but she also has access to the Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer, whereas Lidne has no effective weaponry besides Shaver (which is shit). Cecil is also much more flexible than Linde and can be good in a variety of physical classes whereas Linde is stuck to Sage or Bishop (I guess Swordmaster once you put enough Dusts into her and you get enough Levin Swords). Alterantively if you're not using Cecile, you can spend that 2500 on a Speedwing for Luke or Rody. This is actually really helpful because it can allow them to double as Cavaliers, so you're essentially getting a second Catria or MU. For example an 8/0 Luke w/Speedwing and a RP use 3HKOs the Dracoknights and ORKOs the cavaliers with a Steel Sword as a Cavalier in Chapter 3. Even if he is at 7/0, he still 2RKOs the Dracos and leaves the cavs with a sliver of health. Rody has an identical performance. The speedwing also has long term applications too so its a pretty good investment and I'd say a much better one than spending 2500 on a Robe for Linde. I know these guys are a tier up on Linde but you cannot simply ignore the costs.

Cecile going from being a D student to a C student is not wise when Linde can go from a C to a B. Cecile's strength is still abysmal, and her speed hasn't quite picked up the steam it needs. Her start is hardly better than the other 2 in the trio. Luke if properly trained does not need a wing (or shouldn't that early), and I have to ask if you considered WTD in those number calcs.

Lastly, we also have plenty of money to spare, and I will even submit that the investment is luxurious to Linde as it is with Luke (since he doesn't need these things seeing as they don't help turns go lower) and Rody. Why not get these things? I'd rather that than numerous silly forges (aside from the Wing Spear I guess, but that's basically Shiida only as well, since I can't actually share that forge). To be honest, there are numerous ways to invest gold to make a unit great out of nowhere, so why not explore it a bit more?

first of all grandjackal you can get lowest turns on most maps without linde, so please don't try to pass off her possible contributions as actual contributions.

second, most FE12 objectives can be completed with a good team effort, so nosferatanking is not really even that useful.

Not only did I never say she herself actually saves turns, but I'm also not claiming nosferatanking out the gate. I mean, if you want to continue thinking that's the only argument Linde has, feel free. I'll enjoy watching you talk in an echo chamber.

uh, no, maybe it's because it's really fucking difficult to get 5 unpromoted units to L14-16 in a game where the enemy density is pretty low.

So then maybe dump Luke? You already have amazing frontliners (MU, Sirius, Pala, etc), why you need a C student frontliner as well, especially since his performance never really changes from being a C student frontliner all game?

what? of course he does! ryan comes out of the prologue at 3/-- if you neglect him a bit. he exists for chapters 1 and 2 and takes the chapter 2 bosskill if you opt to go for the safe strategy. we're talking, like, a ~3 level lead here when linde joins. after that they are basically trying to kill or chip the same stuff, since they have the same movement, but ryan is way better at outright killing DKs whereas linde is better at killing armors (and linde doesn't double armors until 11/-- on average). so any advantage in EXP gain that linde has from facing more combat is at least balanced by ryan annihilating DKs for more EXP.

3 levels is not a significant level lead, nor is it a significant performance changer. As for Dracos, let's think about that. With a robe, Linde pulls one in (seeing as Ryan can't), and then can opt to finish it off thanks to Aura, or chip another to give the kill to someone else. This gets her 2 chip exp or a chip and kill exp. Ryan can only get kill exp. Thus, there isn't really a difference in performance (aside from 2500 gold on a robe vs the exp you had to spend on Ryan+that expensive ass forge on top of it), while Linde actually gets more exp out of this thanks to having more opportunities to attack and even the lower base level giving her more bang for her buck at this point in time.

now PKL has a pretty rosy experience with ryan so i think he overestimates him by a fair bit, but you and SDS do the same with linde to a more egregious extent.

Funny thing is, I don't think Ryan and Linde are that far apart, and the issue seems more on viewpoint rather than performance. The big key points here are namely that Ryan is not really exp dependent, and is more dependent on the forge. He contributes early no matter what, and you can basically dump him after he's done being useful, and there's nothing Linde can d about it. Exchanging him for Linde doesn't really change how we perform in like chapter 3 and such, but in the end Linde is more worth it in the long term. Essentially the argument crams up at a point. People say there's no point in Linde when we have Ryan (though that argument sounds dumb to me) or the like, but there's also the fact that Linde if given that opportunity is still good. I'm only on the side of Linde because everyone seems to think we're strapped for cash at all times.

[dondon151]

Not only did I never say she herself actually saves turns, but I'm also not claiming nosferatanking out the gate. I mean, if you want to continue thinking that's the only argument Linde has, feel free. I'll enjoy watching you talk in an echo chamber.

can the sass if you don't have an argument that can stay afloat.

if linde's utility is not nosferatanking, then it's chipping. many other users can do a better job.

So then maybe dump Luke? You already have amazing frontliners (MU, Sirius, Pala, etc), why you need a C student frontliner as well, especially since his performance never really changes from being a C student frontliner all game?

uh luke is actually pretty good

not only that, but for some strategies you absolutely need a trained altean cav. you just don't have enough units otherwise! palla and MU are not usually durable enough to be able to withstand more than 2 rounds of combat from full HP, so you can't rely on them to tank through enemies.

3 levels is not a significant level lead, nor is it a significant performance changer. As for Dracos, let's think about that. With a robe, Linde pulls one in (seeing as Ryan can't),

absolutely, positively false. ryan can just take a hit. it doesn't matter if he doesn't counter because he just OHKOs on player phase.

and then can opt to finish it off thanks to Aura, or chip another to give the kill to someone else. This gets her 2 chip exp or a chip and kill exp. Ryan can only get kill exp. Thus, there isn't really a difference in performance (aside from 2500 gold on a robe vs the exp you had to spend on Ryan+that expensive ass forge on top of it),

that steel bow forge is useful no matter which way you swing it. you can't do chapter 2 without it unless you have an insanely blessed MU, but i suppose it's in your pedigree to assume that everything is blessed except for when you don't want it to be.

while Linde actually gets more exp out of this thanks to having more opportunities to attack and even the lower base level giving her more bang for her buck at this point in time.

she gets like, 3 extra rounds of nonfatal combat, which equates to about half a level maximum. not nearly enough.

I'm only on the side of Linde because everyone seems to think we're strapped for cash at all times.

but we are. i used no lunatic stat boosters and spent cash rather sparingly, and went broke before chapter 14.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

that steel bow forge is useful no matter which way you swing it. you can't do chapter 2 without it unless you have an insanely blessed MU

Wrong.

32 HP, 16.6 Str, 11.6 Skl, 11.4 Spe, 7.8 Lck, 6.4 Def

Those are the averages for my level 9 Fighter MU, which is what I had going into Chapter 2. I don't forge, and yet I still 6-turned the chapter. So no, blowing a billion gold on a big-ass forge is NOT necessary. In fact, I'm mostly willing to say that no forges are "necessary", since I've gotten through the game just fine without them, but of all the "necessary" forges, a ludicrous Steel Bow forge is definitely not one of them.

I'll address other things in a bit, but this is the most easily and immediately debunked statement.

e: I think that an issue here is that people are treating FE12 a bit like FE11, which is a bit understandable. FE11 had ridiculous enemies and shitty PCs, so it basically required you to spend money out the ass on gigantic forges to OHKO them, because you couldn't reliably face them head on. This was fine, because you didn't really have any other ways to spend money other than forge giant weapons to make up for mediocre characters.

FE12 doesn't exactly have that issue. There are 3 main ways to spend money: Forges, In-base Arena Training, and Lunatic Stat Boosters. Different players have different styles- I tend to lean heavily on arena, grandjackal wants to buy all the stat boosters for everyone, and dondon likes forges (probably because of the FE11 link). All of these are equally valid, and there's no "one way" to play this game, which is good, and which is why FE12 is an infinitely better game than FE11.

I will, however, say this. No forge is "required" to beat the game, or at least certain chapters. Neither is buying stat boosters, neither is arena training, etc so on so forth. I see a lot of pigeonholing arguments going on, like "unit x is always either doing y or z" or "unit x has object y and does z with it always", when this really isn't the case. Ryan vs. Linde is one of these situations. If you make a gigantic Steel Bow forge, then Ryan is clearly the greatest benefactor of that forge, and while I haven't experienced exactly that, I'm willing to bet it's pretty damn good, which is why Ryan is where he is. Likewise, if you buy Linde an Angelic Robe and let her pick up Dracoknight kills in Ch. 3 and beyond, she'll be in a good situation too, much better than if she was denied this resource. That's pretty much what the units in upper mid are. "If you give these units a resource and let them use it to pick up kills, this unit will excel." Linde needs the Robe. Ryan needs the forge. Merric needs Excalibur (which is usually glued to Etzel, and for good reason). Jeorge needs Parthia (which he comes with, but which some, including me, are loath to use just to give Jeorge free kills with a limited use legendary weapon). Minerva could probably stand to drop for the same reason. Darros needs an Arms Scroll for Silver Axes in Hero, or any other number of things. Belf needs a Master Seal and some stars, Leiden needs the same but could probably use an Energy Drop too.

All in all, these units share something in common: mediocre if used as-is, above-average if used to the best of their ability.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Espinosa]

Would you say it is possible to 6-turn chapter 2 without the forge, like you did, without sacrificing any units? I notice you employed sacrificial strats in the first chapters of the run. Because players determined to keep everyone alive / recruit everyone and keep them alive might not have the option, and Catria will take the punishment.

Also, I'm curious if it's been discussed which units are worth recruiting. What happens if you don't recruit Julian? Clearly, chapter 3 is clearable in less turns, but how does this affect the final chapter? Do you lose anything by killing the four Bishops (on runs that disregard everybody's recruitment)? If it makes the final chapter take longer in term of turns, isn't it still less turns than those spent getting Marth to Julian's village and back? Or can you not beat the game if you don't recruit the bishops? I haven't got that far in the game on any of my runs and the recordings of the final map that I watched all went for the recruitment, that's why I'm asking.

I guess without Julian you wouldn't have a single thief and Marth would be the only one to open chests in the chapters that have them, so you'd have to Rescue him to the throne there.

Also, has putting Boots on a consistent Bishop (e.g. MU or Wendell or Etzel) been considered? Marth can do whatever he wants in most chapters until the last turn and then get rescued for the seize.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Espinosa

[grandjackal]

Would you say it is possible to 6-turn chapter 2 without the forge, like you did, without sacrificing any units? I notice you employed sacrificial strats in the first chapters of the run. Because players determined to keep everyone alive / recruit everyone and keep them alive might not have the option, and Catria will take the punishment.

I can reaffirm the claim, having just done it without sacrifice, nor did I have a trained Luke and Rody (Luke was level 2). Course, that's also why I didn't disagree with dondon's (I didn't even know that was you, dondon) assessment of Ryan's level.

Also, I'm curious if it's been discussed which units are worth recruiting. What happens if you don't recruit Julian? Clearly, chapter 3 is clearable in less turns, but how does this affect the final chapter? Do you lose anything by killing the four Bishops (on runs that disregard everybody's recruitment)? If it makes the final chapter take longer in term of turns, isn't it still less turns than those spent getting Marth to Julian's village and back? Or can you not beat the game if you don't recruit the bishops? I haven't got that far in the game on any of my runs and the recordings of the final map that I watched all went for the recruitment, that's why I'm asking.

I think on "death", Medius devours any unrecruited bishops. Considering you have to actually rig a crit or two to just kill him once without getting your face torn off by reinforcements...Yeah, you kinda need Julian. There's also the reason you stated below.

Also, has putting Boots on a consistent Bishop (e.g. MU or Wendell or Etzel) been considered? Marth can do whatever he wants in most chapters until the last turn and then get rescued for the seize.

I forget when you get the boots because at that point. Marth probably overall outruns them anyways. Actually, I think you get them in chapter...9 was it? Where your staffers are probably on the other side of the map, and boots are required to get Etzel before rescue. Then there's chapter 10 where Marth just walks across, then the volcano and the frozen tundra, crystal castle...There's very few times putting boots on a staffer helps. Only in the desert would I imagine it makes a difference? Which case we didn't use the Boots to get Etzel, who's probably the only guy who could safely pull that off...

In short, I don't think that suggestion is worth it.

[Espinosa]

So do you fail to beat the game / get a bad ending, if any Bishops are unrecruited? Julian doesn't give Marth a support or anything, so he's not helping him with the critting. Even if you take a couple turns longer in the final chapter, it still can't compare to the turns wasted on chapter 3.

Also, Marth is just one point of move ahead of Bishops and Sages, and you can compensate for that 1 square lost per turn on the last turn where Marth can move his full 7 move to the throne, so no turns are lost unless you take a good dozen turns on a given map. There's a substantial benefit in the maps after the Boots where you're using Rescue anyway, and you could modify your Rescue use in such a way that most of it is left until you acquire the Boots. The Rescuer must be fed a lot of stat boosters to be able to fight back on the way, though.

[Anouleth]

So do you fail to beat the game / get a bad ending, if any Bishops are unrecruited? Julian doesn't give Marth a support or anything, so he's not helping him with the critting. Even if you take a couple turns longer in the final chapter, it still can't compare to the turns wasted on chapter 3.

Julian saves turns in many chapters because he is the only one who can open chests aside from Marth.

In addition, this is not a LTC tier list.

Also, Marth is just one point of move ahead of Bishops and Sages, and you can compensate for that 1 square lost per turn on the last turn where Marth can move his full 7 move to the throne, so no turns are lost unless you take a good dozen turns on a given map.

You only need to take eight turns for Marth moving at 9 spaces every turn to match the pace of some Bishop moving at 8 spaces every turn and then Rescuing Marth. You can also Rescue Boots!Marth on Turn 1 and then have him start moving: if you do this, Marth always outpaces any Bishop.

[Blademaster!]

Do you guys have a list of average level/turn count per chapter when trying to do an efficient run?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You can check out some of the posted runs (I have posted 2 but they're both "in progress"), but things are getting rather updated. Generally just pace out Marth getting to the throne and then see if it's possible for him to move max every turn. If so, walking distance is as good as it gets, otherwise there's some time added for hacking through enemies and stuff.

There's rescue shenanigans and stuff but that's mainly when Marth has to do some random shit on the other side of the map for no good reason (Ch9), or when your staff user can get forward faster than Marth (Ch11).

[fatgamecat]

Is this Linde vs Ryan thing mostly academic? I don't see either one of them taking a permanent deployment spot.

Is anyone still trying to clear Lunatic Reverse w/o rainbow potion? How about recruiting everyone or getting all items, etc?

[dondon151]

Is this Linde vs Ryan thing mostly academic? I don't see either one of them taking a permanent deployment spot.

the argument is that linde can take a permanent deployment slot whereas ryan more or less can't

i agree with you, which would mean that ryan's more useful because his utility is slightly more useful in general

[Paperblade]

I used Ryan permanently in H4, but that's mostly because it was easier to get him a lot of kill EXP.

[PKL]

Shouldn't we assume the characters in question are being deployed though?

[fatgamecat]

Shouldn't we assume the characters in question are being deployed though?

Well that's what I always thought was silly about heated arguments (getting kicked from IRC chat rooms?) over mid tier characters that will likely be deployed rarely or never in a low turn count run.

[-Cynthia-]

Well that's what I always thought was silly about heated arguments (getting kicked from IRC chat rooms?) over mid tier characters that will likely be deployed rarely or never in a low turn count run.

Tier lists generally don't assume the most optimal team though- they assume the character in question is being deployed. Granted FE12 has a lot of terrible filler units that show up later in the game that are hard to assume deployed, but Linde and Ryan show up early enough that we can assess their contributions.

Edited December 24, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[Espinosa]

I'm really interested in Draug, namely one that saw absolutely no action during the Prologue. What are his best options, and when does Luke's/Rody's durability lead over him start to matter as more levels are accumulated? Are his strength growths reliable enough for ORKOing purposes? Bases seem very solid as does the starting level, but there's little promise of anything besides speed, speed and even more speed. I always dropped him around the time Sirius joined, but I wonder if a non-frustrating use of Draug (without rigging levels) is possible, and if it gets the player into problematic situations as a choice.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm really interested in Draug, namely one that saw absolutely no action during the Prologue. What are his best options, and when does Luke's/Rody's durability lead over him start to matter as more levels are accumulated? Are his strength growths reliable enough for ORKOing purposes? Bases seem very solid as does the starting level, but there's little promise of anything besides speed, speed and even more speed. I always dropped him around the time Sirius joined, but I wonder if a non-frustrating use of Draug (without rigging levels) is possible, and if it gets the player into problematic situations as a choice.

I'm fond of him as Hunter, personally. A lot of Hunter's utility in the early-midgame doesn't depend on Strength, and he can get scary later in the game. In one run I had him promoted around Ch. 9, so he was a mighty fast horseman that had lots of hit-and-run potential. He will probably need help in the form of Energy Drops at some point, but otherwise he's functional. It also circumvents his piss-poor defensive growths somewhat, which is nice.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Espinosa]

Is Hunter really a feasible choice outside of casual efficiency? The lack of bow rank definitely hurts Hunter!Doga before he enters enough rounds of player phase combat, and you probably won't have him as a Hunter in Dracoknight-heavy chapters because the slots for this sort of utility are limited and you'd like Hunters who can actually wield the prized Steel Bow forge.

Also, would anybody be interested in discussing the usage of Bond Drop on Lunatic runs? I started a topic with some of my own theories about its application but I'm curious what your experiences have been like and what you see to be optimal use for the item.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Is Hunter really a feasible choice outside of casual efficiency? The lack of bow rank definitely hurts Hunter!Doga before he enters enough rounds of player phase combat, and you probably won't have him as a Hunter in Dracoknight-heavy chapters because the slots for this sort of utility are limited and you'd like Hunters who can actually wield the prized Steel Bow forge.

Also, would anybody be interested in discussing the usage of Bond Drop on Lunatic runs? I started a topic with some of my own theories about its application but I'm curious what your experiences have been like and what you see to be optimal use for the item.

One of my efficient runs had him at Horseman by Chapter 9. It's definitely doable and usable.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Blademaster!]

prized Steel Bow forge.

Has it been discussed why you wouldn't just try using an Iron Bow forge instead? Unless my calculations are wrong, accounting for the bonus hit, the difference in price too make them have the same str and hit is ~900, and ~2000 without the hit bonus for a total of 8140. Since funds don't seem to be that big a deal in this game from what you are all saying, that really doesn't seem like such a bad deal, since arms scrolls (can you buy them in the bonus shop after completing Lunatic?) normally cost 2500 anyway, and now you have a weapon anyone can use with 5 more uses.

Edit: Forgot to mention this assumes a +5 steel bow forge.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Blademaster!

[grandjackal]

Is Hunter really a feasible choice outside of casual efficiency? The lack of bow rank definitely hurts Hunter!Doga before he enters enough rounds of player phase combat, and you probably won't have him as a Hunter in Dracoknight-heavy chapters because the slots for this sort of utility are limited and you'd like Hunters who can actually wield the prized Steel Bow forge.

I find him usable as is as a cavalier. his base stats aren't godlike, but they're good enough to function in the likes of chapter 1-3. With his speed growth, he can generally become pretty good at anything he chooses, but I find cavalier simpler the easier of answers.

Also, would anybody be interested in discussing the usage of Bond Drop on Lunatic runs? I started a topic with some of my own theories about its application but I'm curious what your experiences have been like and what you see to be optimal use for the item.

MU, and that's final. Out the gate, he gets supports with Luke, Rody, Ryan and Marth for the first chapters where they're all guaranteed to be (aside from Rody). Having +40 Evasion with +20 crit is no joke, especially if you can doule the likes of Dracoknights in chapter 2. Was able to get my cav to a level where as a merc he could actually double the chapter 2 boss with a rainbow potion use. With prologue and chapter 1 being nothing but axes, I actually had used swords enough that by the time I fought him, I had D rank just in time. With forests, you turn the Rube and his axe brothers into sliced bread.

One of my efficient runs had him at Horseman by Chapter 9. It's definitely doable and usable.

Like I said, can generally be solid no matter what route he takes.

Has it been discussed why you wouldn't just try using an Iron Bow forge instead? Unless my calculations are wrong, accounting for the bonus hit, the difference in price too make them have the same str and hit is ~900, and ~2000 without the hit bonus for a total of 8140. Since funds don't seem to be that big a deal in this game from what you are all saying, that really doesn't seem like such a bad deal, since arms scrolls (can you buy them in the bonus shop after completing Lunatic?) normally cost 2500 anyway, and now you have a weapon anyone can use with 5 more uses.

Edit: Forgot to mention this assumes a +5 steel bow forge.

To get an Iron Bow at the same might of a +5 Steel Bow is out of the question as that is about 8K on a single weapon. We might have a good amount of gold, but not THAT good. That's 4/5 of our starting bank. To give you a reference, I could give Linde 3 Spirit Dusts the moment she joins, and she can one shot things in chapter 4 with Aura (namely Hunters), along with having all the more beastly chip against super annoying things like said Dracos, but adding in the likes of..generally everything else. Even I think that's lunacy. That's 7500 gold spent, and yet it's still more reasonable than an 8K iron bow forge.

Seriously guys, can we stop pretending like the dracoknights of chapter 2 and 3 are the only thing to bother looking at with these two chapters? I know they're annoying, but they're far from impossible to deal with to go this far.

[Dark Sage]

First off I'm not claiming a thing, I'm merely pointing out how your reasoning for your arguments can be flawed. Secondly, you're being a bit dense here. Let's take generally anyone else's enemy phase and it is the same as what you just stated. Difference being Linde can then go hit something else, because her weapon is 1-2 range. She can still function while most other people have to retreat to heal or limit themselves to taking a kill.

Now think about when this is actually useful.

Take Chapter 3. You can lure 3 dracos at the start in an L position by using 2 characters as bait. Now Linde can be one of those guys and yes she can chip one of the dracos for heavy damage. Now she can kill one of the other dracos without needing to heal but all this does in practice is get Linde some extra exp. You can get the same result by deploying an extra archer. So you can have two of them finish of the dracos (or alternatively, one of the baiters can KO a draco) and then one with the bow forge can OHKO the remaining Draco.

\

The difference being that they can't contribute more damage after the enemy phase, to which Linde isn't limited to thanks to 1-2 range.

I think there is also a misunderstanding here, namely you think that this early SDS is saying we're already Nosferatanking, which is stupid. The fact she can syphon health to heal up without need of a staff's attention is good, but it's a bit early to be talking about Nosferatanking when you have 8 speed.

As for chapter 3, define this later portion you speak of. You take the bridge, or the dumb and much slower way around?

WHO is getting sandbagged here? I know sandbag is a word, but unless you tell me who is getting sandbagged, I'm going to have to assume you're just blabbering.

I am accusing you guys of sandbagging other units' exp gain in favor of Linde's.

If I can do reliable accurate damage form 2 range, why is there an emergency to heal Linde right away? Even if Linde gets hit and we never heal her, she can still do damage throughout the chapter because she can attack from 2 range. Since she can patiently wait her turn to heal/heal herself off with occasional uses of Resire, then no, she does not have the same healing problem.

Great, now Linde can function like Ryan or Gordin except she's worst against Dracoknights.

Also you are seriously overhyping this healing thing. Linde needs to get healed if she wants more than one EP per map and its not that difficult to get a unit healed while attacking or positioning themselves for a productive EP in the same turn. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what a lot of efficient strategies do.

I think that was a an exaggeration on his part, seeing as MU's damage output puts all to shame since he's one of the few that can actually manage a durability lead. Regardless, you only gave me raw numbers without thinking of implications. Namely, how Aura allows Linde to do more damage to Dracos, or how this damage can allow bigger units to take on bigger fish since now weaker units can gum things down, nor does she have to at times avoid combat in order to not die thanks to 2 range so her combat is more consistent.

If the other units can double, then you've got the same result as Linde chipping something. You've got Catria and Draug who can do this at base with only a Rainbow Potion against all the Dracoknights on the map. 7/0 Luke and Rody as Pirates can do the same thing to the 10 AS ones with a rainbow potion use. They also have a shot at doubling all of them at 8/0. The point is, Linde's damage against the dracoknights is nothing special because you have other units who can do the same damage, who can allow other units such as our archers to kill them on the PP.

Also a lot of the action on Chapters 3, 4, 5, and 6 occurs near the fucking starting position, so it should not be hard at all to manage a heal in from Malliesia without needing to retreat.

The avoided counters mean that a unit can kill along with healthily take on the enemy phase if there is one, or allows said units to move out further as they aren't wounded.

I know how fucking chipping works you tool.

I mean, it's nice to think that Luke and Draug are doubling everything when in reality they're only doubling the slowest things out there, but you have to think a little broader than just the basic numbers.

You're an patronizing asshat who needs to remove his mouth from SDS's balls.

See, I too can make insulting statements that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Sirius has much better things to do,

Like what?

and Linde helps take the weight off his shoulders.

No she doesn't.

Linde helps us save a use on that Spear Wing forge, if we even need to forge it.

You need the Wing Spear forge to ORKO Lang (or to at least put him in range for the KO of someone like Horseman Sirius)

I'd also not rely on Barst, as I don't think he does anywhere near the same damage even with a weaker tome, and that acc against what I remember being a majority of sword using cavs.

Barst does not cost a deployment slot.

Also, I think Linde might be able to more freely move in the case of the mages, since she can survive and then attack back at them.

She can't survive a mage and a cavalier attack or two mages in a row.

I mentined Armors for chapter 6. Not sure why you thought up 5.

There is also chapter 5 along with the fact that Shiida cannot be everywhere at once. Cavaliers are gigantic assholes to deal with, and Linde makes them manageable. There are Armors, in which in the least, magic chip helps us not waste uses of Wing Spear/Armorslayer.

Gee, I don't know, maybe its because you didn't mention Chapter 6 but you did mention 5?

Well, chapter 4 overall is very short, and mostly the only members who can help the starting area and then head northeast are Arran, Palla and vaguely Catria. I'd say the contribution is still sizeable.

This is the one I will give you.

Well hey, whatever works. Point being, she helps in chapter 6.

She helps as much as Ryan as in, she can chip something a bit for a weaker unit to finish, but if you are using an Altean cav w/Armorslayer, Sheeda w/Wing Spear (or a forge), or a powerful MU, then Linde is, at best, cleaning up scraps. You could say that's contributing I guess but its not actually all that useful.

Why are you letting things with 20 AS and flight get away with this shit? That was the point I was trying to make. As for how to deal with them, you have George who can have silver or his trusty Parthia, one of the few that can deal with them at melee (MU, Palla and Sirius). Basically the idea is to get aggressive.

Because of how the fucking AI and positioning of the Dracos works. It means that Linde can't leave the starting position on the first turn. It is also impossible to damage one of the dracos that comes at you on the turn 1 EP and you need to deal with the mages that come at you. Now its true that you do have Jeroge and a Sniper with the forge (or alternatively you can use even unpromoted Ryan) to help deal with them but like I said, you still have to contend with the mages, who can 2HKO damn near everyone except for like Catria, Palla, MU, Wendell, Sheeda and Linde with Pure waters. Linde can also avoid being 2HKOd but her offense against the mages is worse than nearly everyone else's.

Btw Sirius needs to be at like, --/6 as a Dracoknight with a rainbow potion use to avoid being doubled by the Dracos and he only like, 3HKOs at best while getting 2HKOd in return.

So in short, Linde is actually pretty bad in this map.

If we're using this magical steel forge, then what is the point of the killer bow?

Because we are not always using the forge against everything? Because we might be using multiple Snipers? Because in situations in which neither the Forge or the Killer bow allows for a ORKO, you can try to take advantage of the higher crit rate?

Cecile going from being a D student to a C student is not wise when Linde can go from a C to a B. Cecile's strength is still abysmal, and her speed hasn't quite picked up the steam it needs. Her start is hardly better than the other 2 in the trio.

7/0 Cecile w/Rainbow potion: 28.8 HP, 21.8 atk (w/Lady Sword), 13.8 AS, 8.2 Def

21 Atk 3HKOs the 9 def dracos and if she procs 22 atk, that's a 3HKO on all of them. Keep in mind that Cecil has a 80% chance of having 14 AS at this level, which means that if she procs strength, she 3HKOs every dracoknight and doubles the 10 AS ones, which is enough to leave people (including Cecile herself) to finish off on the player phase. If Cecile is at 8/0, which is possible, then she has no problem hitting doing all this, plus a 7/0 Cecile can still level up on the map and achieve this. Btw, 21 Atk 2HKOs the most of the cavaliers and 22 atk 2HKOs all of them, which is pretty useful.

Because Cecile's speed growth is so high, she can grow into doubling pretty quickly. Cecile can do well in a variety of classes. Cecile can also use an armorslayer and can be a key unit in clearing Chapter 6 efficiently. She can do all this if she gets her Robe and these contributions are much better than Linde taking the robe just to be a mediocre chipper.

Luke if properly trained does not need a wing (or shouldn't that early), and I have to ask if you considered WTD in those number calcs.

Luke can't double as a cavalier unless he's at 13/0 which is unrealistic. The speedwing allows him to double as a cav at 8/0 which is definitely achievable.

And also Luke has a D in swords in the calcs so he loses no MT when attacking at WTD.

Now its true that you don't really need to give Luke/Rody speedwings but I'd say doing so is more beneficial than giving Linde a Robe. Giving them a speedwing basically nets us a second MU or Catria which is really useful.

Lastly, we also have plenty of money to spare, and I will even submit that the investment is luxurious to Linde as it is with Luke (since he doesn't need these things seeing as they don't help turns go lower) and Rody. Why not get these things? I'd rather that than numerous silly forges (aside from the Wing Spear I guess, but that's basically Shiida only as well, since I can't actually share that forge). To be honest, there are numerous ways to invest gold to make a unit great out of nowhere, so why not explore it a bit more?

Because very few units benefit with only one statbooster, they need multiple, which costs more than making a forge and doesn't make chapters easier the way forges do.

I don't understand why people are so adverse to the Steel Bow forge. Its useful in maps beyond Chapter 2, and its basically a Silver that we get 7 chapters earlier and that can be used by anybody in the Sniper class. I'd actually say its more useful than the Wing Spear forge, which people don't seem to have many problems with making.

On another note, Draug just blows in general. I've had extensive difficulties using him in H2, so I can't imagine how harder it is to use him here. I'm also not very fond of Hunter Draug. It does allow him to avoid counters but it slows down his leveling speed, which can hurt in the long run (though he is useful if he procs speed in the prologue and uses rainbow potion. E in bows also sucks.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Colonel M]

Catria is still under Sirius?

The fuck is this madness!?!

Also I will argue to the freaking death how much Linde sucks. 6 Movement is unjustified even if you do have 1-2 range. Even being over MERRIC is questionable.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

Now think about when this is actually useful.

Take Chapter 3. You can lure 3 dracos at the start in an L position by using 2 characters as bait. Now Linde can be one of those guys and yes she can chip one of the dracos for heavy damage. Now she can kill one of the other dracos without needing to heal but all this does in practice is get Linde some extra exp. You can get the same result by deploying an extra archer. So you can have two of them finish of the dracos (or alternatively, one of the baiters can KO a draco) and then one with the bow forge can OHKO the remaining Draco.

You really wanna give exp to Gordon or Warren over Linde? Now that's just stubborn, and borderline zealously worshipping a single forge. Fact is that if Linde is just as helpful against the dracos as the archers are, but Linde is more effective generally everywhere else, so...

I think there is also a misunderstanding here, namely you think that this early SDS is saying we're already Nosferatanking, which is stupid. The fact she can syphon health to heal up without need of a staff's attention is good, but it's a bit early to be talking about Nosferatanking when you have 8 speed.

Wow, it's like that's what's been said about a billion times since the start of this argument. The point of the robe is to be able to take a Draco hit. 22 Mt with Aura, Dracos have around 36 HP and 3 Res. 2RKO.

As for chapter 3, define this later portion you speak of. You take the bridge, or the dumb and much slower way around?

You never answered this, by the way.

I am accusing you guys of sandbagging other units' exp gain in favor of Linde's.

Define other units, because I sure don't give a damn about taking exp away from Gordon.

Great, now Linde can function like Ryan or Gordin except she's worst against Dracoknights.

Because as we know, they are the only enemy in the game. I mean it's not like they stop appearing after chapter 5 up until chapter 9 where we're infinitely better equipped to deal with them.

Also you are seriously overhyping this healing thing. Linde needs to get healed if she wants more than one EP per map and its not that difficult to get a unit healed while attacking or positioning themselves for a productive EP in the same turn. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what a lot of efficient strategies do.

Having to keep in range of your healers every turn actually sounds like an awful strategy. In fact if you have to do that to efficiently do things, it usually means you have too much melee. Generally the better idea is to be able to eliminate threats immediately during your turn or positioning yourself to best be able to eliminate any problems on your turn. Goes without saying that this game is more player phase oriented than enemy phase. While this is good news for Ryan, the fact Linde still has that kind of flexibility while still doing solid damage (12 magic might is still good, resire or no) is still an advantage that isn't being given a lot of credit here.

But yeah, it's not overtly major until she gets speed.

If the other units can double, then you've got the same result as Linde chipping something. You've got Catria and Draug who can do this at base with only a Rainbow Potion against all the Dracoknights on the map. 7/0 Luke and Rody as Pirates can do the same thing to the 10 AS ones with a rainbow potion use. They also have a shot at doubling all of them at 8/0. The point is, Linde's damage against the dracoknights is nothing special because you have other units who can do the same damage, who can allow other units such as our archers to kill them on the PP.

Luke and Rody as pirates have the problem of accuracy, speed reliance (just because there are 10 AS ones does not magically fix the problem), lack of 1-2 range, and cannot do anything to the second set of dracos without healing. I dunno where you got the idea Draug could do it at base, and so what if Catria can, why have her eat the attack in the first place? Here's yet another thought. Linde chips the draco, Catria kills, Linde chips another, someone else gets the kill. That way, Catria and whoever this other person are are fresh to help deal with the next set of dracos.

By the way, as to why I keep asking you if you take the bridge or if you go the long way around is actually crucial here. Because if you take the bridge which is in truth much shorter, then you don't have to divulge a portion of your force to follow Marth's ass halfway across the map, and merely have to be prepared near the bridge for when the dragons at the mountain fly at you while Marth is going to fetch the key.

Also a lot of the action on Chapters 3, 4, 5, and 6 occurs near the fucking starting position, so it should not be hard at all to manage a heal in from Malliesia without needing to retreat.

Problem being that after the start if we're constantly moving, then we do not have that luxury because eventually, our staff users fall behind. In order to satisfy the need of healthy bodies later, near the start we would like the help we can get in avoiding taking unnecessary damage. Thus, why I keep saying avoiding the need to be healed in the first place is a good thing.

I know how fucking chipping works you tool.

You're an patronizing asshat who needs to remove his mouth from SDS's balls.

See, I too can make insulting statements that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Calm down.

Like what?

No she doesn't.

First off, great responses that put no thought into anything. Secondly, I'm sure you have noticed a pain in the ass moment with the Sniper and cavaliers near the throne in chapter 5. Thing is, you get near the norther village in the javelin user's range while being out of the sniper's range, you draw their aggro, and can kite them up north while you destroy the ballistae with more ease. Issue with this is that in your way is a squad of dracoknights, and Paula isn't gonna get through them by herself. Best of it is, while one draco goes west to pull the cavs and sniper, the other can go south to help kill the boss with a javelin if the need so arises.

Thus, while he's off doing that, someone needs to help with the whole cavaliers and mages issue. So yes, Linde helps shoulder the burden.

You need the Wing Spear forge to ORKO Lang (or to at least put him in range for the KO of someone like Horseman Sirius)

11,760 gold for that]/b]? Let's assume we got this dumbass bow forge first off, with +5. 5775, so we're down to 4225. You get a Bullion from Guile in 4, that brings us up to 9225. That forge can't numerically exist in conjunction with the other. So we lower the bow to +4. After the bullion that's 11,150. STILL not enough. +3 then...None of the archers can OHKO dracos with this, since you'd need 12 Str, or 11 with C rank. That simply isn't happening.

Secondly, again, this isn't a necessary weapon to deal with Lang. It's useful against him, but I wouldn't blow all my money out on one guy. Good god, no wonder everyone is claiming you're "broke" in this game.

Barst does not cost a deployment slot.

Explain to me then the cast of characters that is so clutch we absolutely cannot do this without? I'm very positive you have a slot or two to spare.

She can't survive a mage and a cavalier attack or two mages in a row.

Well, let's think it through. Chapter 5, the enemy in a way comes in waves, namely the mage wave first, with cavaliers nearby form the left. Let's say on the turn a mage attacks Linde, and she counters with generally anything. She can still attack another cav on the player phase on the basis that she has range still. Yeah it's basic, but I suppose the long and short of it is that now thinking about it she shouldn't HAVE to take 2 attacks in a row.

Gee, I don't know, maybe its because you didn't mention Chapter 6 but you did mention 5?

Admittedly, I am a scatterbrain.

She helps as much as Ryan as in, she can chip something a bit for a weaker unit to finish, but if you are using an Altean cav w/Armorslayer, Sheeda w/Wing Spear (or a forge), or a powerful MU, then Linde is, at best, cleaning up scraps. You could say that's contributing I guess but its not actually all that useful.

Clearing a path is suddenly janitorial work in a map where waves of reinforcements are up my ass almost immediately? Especially in a map where I would like at least some key bodies to be healthy when tackling the throne. That's a pretty sore lack of appreciation.

Because of how the fucking AI and positioning of the Dracos works. It means that Linde can't leave the starting position on the first turn. It is also impossible to damage one of the dracos that comes at you on the turn 1 EP and you need to deal with the mages that come at you. Now its true that you do have Jeroge and a Sniper with the forge (or alternatively you can use even unpromoted Ryan) to help deal with them but like I said, you still have to contend with the mages, who can 2HKO damn near everyone except for like Catria, Palla, MU, Wendell, Sheeda and Linde with Pure waters. Linde can also avoid being 2HKOd but her offense against the mages is worse than nearly everyone else's.

Btw Sirius needs to be at like, --/6 as a Dracoknight with a rainbow potion use to avoid being doubled by the Dracos and he only like, 3HKOs at best while getting 2HKOd in return.

So in short, Linde is actually pretty bad in this map.

A lot of mages you shouldn't really have to deal with until later into the map since a good chunk of them aggro Etzel, which is bad since you want him closer to Marth so you can recruit him before the throne is open.

As for the dracos, you ever consider maybe dealing with things on player phase 2 then? I'm not demanding you somehow reach across the map on the first turn. Honestly man, do you give things thought?

(By the way, Parthia can be used as an item for 7 Res, and with Aquarius, George can take 2 Bolganon mages and still survive. With generally any bow, he will do enough damage that any inept unit could pretty much mop up the mess on the player phase).

Because we are not always using the forge against everything? Because we might be using multiple Snipers? Because in situations in which neither the Forge or the Killer bow allows for a ORKO, you can try to take advantage of the higher crit rate?

These sound more like reasons not to bother with the steel forge more than the Shaver. As for the Shaver, even base Linde can still 2HKO the dracos of chapter 9. She would have 21 mt from Shaver, and then 4 off her base magic, and with the 3 Res, that would be 22 of their 43-44 HP. To compare in damage rather than character, Castor has 10 Str, C rank and 24 effective might in total of 35 vs them. -10 defense, that's 25. The difference is hardly noticeable. Shaver even has 10 more crit, for what it's worth (I forget if mages can fight flying enemies in the in-base arena). Now if we're using Ryan, The difference may be more like 5 damage at most rather than 3, but again. Hardly a difference.

This is also again assuming Base Linde, who by chapter 9 will not be base level. Finally, level 6 Sirius honestly does not sound completely out of the question, since he is so active in the previous chapters against big enemies+thieves bonanza in chapter 7, along with the in-base arena. Then again, I don't blow all my gold on two weapons that I ultimately don't need.

7/0 Cecile w/Rainbow potion: 28.8 HP, 21.8 atk (w/Lady Sword), 13.8 AS, 8.2 Def

21 Atk 3HKOs the 9 def dracos and if she procs 22 atk, that's a 3HKO on all of them. Keep in mind that Cecil has a 80% chance of having 14 AS at this level, which means that if she procs strength, she 3HKOs every dracoknight and doubles the 10 AS ones, which is enough to leave people (including Cecile herself) to finish off on the player phase. If Cecile is at 8/0, which is possible, then she has no problem hitting doing all this, plus a 7/0 Cecile can still level up on the map and achieve this. Btw, 21 Atk 2HKOs the most of the cavaliers and 22 atk 2HKOs all of them, which is pretty useful.

That's also 4 levels of exp that Linde didn't take. You're ignoring the fact that no matter what I do with my exp, Linde shows up capable of doing what needs to be done, if given a robe. No growths or exp required. Let's say Cecile got boned a point of speed. That's a lot of eggs you put into one basket. That's a big risk you're taking. A risk that ultimately Linde doesn't push on you.

Furthemore, what class are you assuming her as? Cause as a cav with the rainbow potion at that level, not only would she still double, she wouldn't even need the robe.

Because Cecile's speed growth is so high, she can grow into doubling pretty quickly. Cecile can do well in a variety of classes. Cecile can also use an armorslayer and can be a key unit in clearing Chapter 6 efficiently. She can do all this if she gets her Robe and these contributions are much better than Linde taking the robe just to be a mediocre chipper.

Considering you are wrong about her needing the robe, all It would make her is less heal dependent, which Linde would also help you do anyways. So in Cecile's case, you can have your cake and eat it too.

By the way, with prologue considered unconsidered in argument, Cecile if we're using her would certainly be higher than 7 by chapter 6.

Luke can't double as a cavalier unless he's at 13/0 which is unrealistic. The speedwing allows him to double as a cav at 8/0 which is definitely achievable.

And also Luke has a D in swords in the calcs so he loses no MT when attacking at WTD.

Well what's stopping me from getting both? Getting Linde an Angel Robe doesn't stop Luke from getting a wing. Hell, getting both is still cheaper than any of the forges that have been suggested so far.

Because very few units benefit with only one statbooster, they need multiple, which costs more than making a forge and doesn't make chapters easier the way forges do.

Well I'm not suggesting we put EVERYONE under a microscope. Besides, I have common sense, I know a huge portion of the cast is unsalvageable.

I don't understand why people are so adverse to the Steel Bow forge. Its useful in maps beyond Chapter 2, and its basically a Silver that we get 7 chapters earlier and that can be used by anybody in the Sniper class. I'd actually say its more useful than the Wing Spear forge, which people don't seem to have many problems with making.

Well I pointed out the impossible price tag conundrum, but think of it this way. It's basically 2 stat boosters. That's two characters that could just help us in these same situations, while the forge is essentially one person at a time. Hell, you pointed out Luke for me.

On another note, Draug just blows in general. I've had extensive difficulties using him in H2, so I can't imagine how harder it is to use him here. I'm also not very fond of Hunter Draug. It does allow him to avoid counters but it slows down his leveling speed, which can hurt in the long run (though he is useful if he procs speed in the prologue and uses rainbow potion. E in bows also sucks.

I'm not fond of him either, but at base he's usable as a cav for the things you need done early on. Like in a sense, his bases are actually great (in the least, they're better than the altean knights' bases) and is basically a pre-trained one. I feel a stat booster would do wonders on him, I'm just not sure which.

EDIT: Maric I think is in his position due to old hat things, in the sense that the argument that put him there is "Etzel exists, therefore Maric doesn't".

Edited December 26, 2012 by grandjackal

[Colonel M]

EDIT: Maric I think is in his position due to old hat things, in the sense that the argument that put him there is "Etzel exists, therefore Maric doesn't".

That is (more than likely) the case; however, if that were the reason, than Linde would be lower because other good combat units that actually can do more than "chip" exists, therefore Linde doesn't.

Also how's the Shining Force edge of things? I kind of glanced at your blog. Disappointed at your thoughts on Slade.