What Do You Follow?

[Phoenix Wright]

I think God considers us special because we're still here. We gained noticeably superior intelligence despite the odds and haven't destroyed ourselves or our planet yet. This is all in one of my older posts.

Wouldn't God know all that before we were created?

What "odds"? We're in the process of destroying ourselves...

Again, see my older posts, but consider a case of good luck that came from something you could only otherwise describe as a coincidence. For example, you're out one day and realise just too late that you've spent too much money and can't afford the bus fare back. You continue to walk along and a ray of sun catches on a coin on the ground and the reflection catches you attention. The coin just so happens to be enough to make the fare home. Coincidence or divine charity? And yeah, I know that one was a bit extreme but it's just demonstrating my point.

I believe a quote from Futurama is applicable here: "If you do too much, people get dependent on you, and if you do nothing, they lose hope ... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

People drop money all the time. You were bound to find some anyway. I see that as an excuse to believe in God rather than a reason. "God found me a quarter! Oooooh He must be real!"

One time I found twenty dollars (US) on the floor and my mom took it from me when I showed her. What do you call that? A stroke of bad luck? Divine intervention? A coincidence? Or just an example of human behavior?

I've used that quote before, lol. It's the only Futurama quote that ever got me to think. By the way, are you trying to tell me God does nothing for me?

[Byte2222]

I am not trying to explain the world's working and I am certainly, definitely not trying to convince you that what I think is correct: I say you must find your own path and beliefs. I'm here to say what I think and believe and give my interpretation of certain events. If you disagree then that's fine, I don't want to argue with you or anyone but this is starting to feel a bit like an interrogation.

[Balcerzak]

Against omniscience, people will cite the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (impossible to determine the position and the momentum of a quantum). However, this "uncertainty" comes from our need to observe to know. We need to use an electromagnetic wave to hit the electron to get readings, but electrons move due to being hit by the wave. However, omniscience rules out having to see things to know things.

That's not how the Heisenberg uncertainty principle works. While the fact that an emission of a photon necessary to observe a particle visually will induce recoil, changing the momentum of what's being studied, that's an entirely different effect. The Heisenberg uncertainly principle, however, simply elucidates the fact that eigenstates of position are fundamentally a superposition of eigenstates of momentum, and if the position eigenstate is fixed, you cannot know the momentum without collapsing the wavefunction (which then destroys the position information you had previously).

Read up on the Stern-Gerlach experiments, which are informative, and on a related subject.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Raven]

For some reason I wasn't christened as a child, and I'm glad I wasn't either.

For years now I haven't had reason to believe anything within any religion. I think it's all bullshit, and good for absolutely nothing. I don't care if I offend religious people in saying so, because I find religion offensive in general. As far as believing in an all-powerful being, I will not close my mind to and say it doesn't exist it as it may well exist. However I won't believe it until there's hard evidence of its existence.

On the topic of religion and how it's affected me in the past, a past relationship of mine was ended by the now ex due to her being Catholic, because Catholics are only apparently supposed to be in a relationship where they truly feel will last a lifetime. At least I took her virginity. Raven 1 religion 0.

[eclipse]

I'm a half Jew myself actually. I haven't been practicing my faith for awhile, but I'm going to make far more of an effort to do so. One thing I will not do though is to keep kosher. I do not believe in holy animals and have no clue why it's so bad to eat meat and dairy together.

The only thing I remember from the Bible involving meat and milk is not to cook a calf in its mother's milk.

On a more practical note, meat + milk = messed-up internal plumbing.

[Raven]

The only thing I remember from the Bible involving meat and milk is not to cook a calf in its mother's milk.

On a more practical note, meat + milk = messed-up internal plumbing.

If I had to choose one liquid and one solid thing to live on for the rest of my life, those would be my first choices.

[Kanami]

I think God considers us special because we're still here. We gained noticeably superior intelligence despite the odds and haven't destroyed ourselves or our planet yet. This is all in one of my older posts.

Key word XD

.... On a more serious note, I'm disagree with the "still here" equating to special comment. Does that make the common ant special? It still exists? Are criminals special? (Since frankly, we'll never get rid of them). I also find this logic highly offensive if flipped around. Since it seems to imply that extinct species weren't "special" and that those which die prematurely weren't "special" people.

You're out one day and realise just too late that you've spent too much money and can't afford the bus fare back. You continue to walk along and a ray of sun catches on a coin on the ground and the reflection catches you attention. The coin just so happens to be enough to make the fare home. Coincidence or divine charity? And yeah, I know that one was a bit extreme but it's just demonstrating my point.

Divine? If that's anything other then dumb luck, I have a few complaints to make to your deity. People die due to unfair circumstances daily, circumstances which they may have no control over. And here "God" is wasting time on an idiot who went on a shopping frenzy? The typical "God wants us to make our own decisions and grow stronger" rubbish doesn't fit in here at all. If you were stupid enough to overspend your budget you deserve the consequences of walking home... even if it'll take several hours.

I believe a quote from Futurama is applicable here: "If you do too much, people get dependent on you, and if you do nothing, they lose hope ... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

An interesting quote, but one that's not very useful. :/ Either way, God and his "divine" prioritize are seriously screwed up then.

I am not trying to explain the world's working and I am certainly, definitely not trying to convince you that what I think is correct: I say you must find your own path and beliefs. I'm here to say what I think and believe and give my interpretation of certain events. If you disagree then that's fine, I don't want to argue with you or anyone but this is starting to feel a bit like an interrogation.

I find this way of thinking very narrow-minded, despite it promoting acceptance of other people's ideas. Since essentially it looks more like "Yeah whatever I don't care" then there being two different valid opinions. Being a discussion thread, analyzing and critiquing eachothers comments and interpretations is what makes things interesting. I'm not saying an agreement always has to be reached. But dismissing the responses and queries regarding your comments as "Just my opinion, don't want to discuss it further" makes you seem like an upstart, a passive friendly upstart, but someone who looks down on others none the less.

If I had to choose one liquid and one solid thing to live on for the rest of my life, those would be my first choices.

Meat sounds good, though I'm not a fan of milk. More of a tea person, but fried chicken and tea has proved to be a painful combination on my stomach :P

[Byte2222]

.... On a more serious note, I'm disagree with the "still here" equating to special comment. Does that make the common ant special? It still exists? Are criminals special? (Since frankly, we'll never get rid of them). I also find this logic highly offensive if flipped around. Since it seems to imply that extinct species weren't "special" and that those which die prematurely weren't "special" people.

I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear, I meant that we're still here despite everything we've done to ruin the planet and all of the possible ways the planet (and space) could have ruined us. Though I do agree that we can't keep doing this much longer before we do self-destruct.

Divine? If that's anything other then dumb luck, I have a few complaints to make to your deity. People die due to unfair circumstances daily, circumstances which they may have no control over. And here "God" is wasting time on an idiot who went on a shopping frenzy? The typical "God wants us to make our own decisions and grow stronger" rubbish doesn't fit in here at all. If you were stupid enough to overspend your budget you deserve the consequences of walking home... even if it'll take several hours.

Why would an omnipotent (or thereabouts) being need to prioritise? I believe that God can observe and affect the entire world, if not he entire universe, instantaneously or in a negligible amount of time. Why poverty still exists is a flaw in my reasoning and I'm not going to try to deny it or work around it. Perhaps there is an answer that exists with my model, but I don't know it (yet). And yes, someone who is in that situation doesn't deserve such an easy escape, but in some ways charity is about giving people more than they deserve; I don't think the human race deserves to exist and that God should have smote us long ago, but we're still here (and I'm extremely grateful).

An interesting quote, but one that's not very useful. :/ Either way, God and his "divine" priorities are seriously screwed up then.

See above: I don't think God prioritises. The way I interpret the quote is 'just because you don't have proof or can't see evidence that God works in your life, doesn't mean he doesn't: this is one explanation.'

I find this way of thinking very narrow-minded, despite it promoting acceptance of other people's ideas. Since essentially it looks more like "Yeah whatever I don't care" then there being two different valid opinions. Being a discussion thread, analyzing and critiquing each others comments and interpretations is what makes things interesting. I'm not saying an agreement always has to be reached. But dismissing the responses and queries regarding your comments as "Just my opinion, don't want to discuss it further" makes you seem like an upstart, a passive friendly upstart, but someone who looks down on others none the less.

The reason I first posted in this topic was just to put my opinion out there in case someone found it interesting. As far as I know we came here to see other people's opinions and possibly discuss them, their strengths and their flaws. When someone quotes my opinion then, unless it's otherwise stated, I assume it's to point out a weakness in my model and ask if I want to clarify my opinion around the point. I'm not about to U-turn on my opinion but I don't mean to dismiss any questions aimed at me and my previous post was not intended to be "stop badgering me, I'm bored of this," more like "I'm starting to feel a bit like a punchbag here guys" and I'd hoped that if people did still want to persist with their questions they would say so. As much as I enjoy a good debate, and don't want others to think I've not explained myself well enough, I do take a while to consider my responses, lest I say something weak or insensitive, and I feel like time is something I don't have enough of (I'm supposed to be doing some revision questions right now) but if you do want to ask me anything I will do my best to answer your questions. Even so, as far as I know we're here to say what we think, not change what we think, and that we should be ready to agree to disagree.

I didn't mean to offend anyone or dismiss others' opinions or responses and if I have then I apologise.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Byte2222

[Meteor]

I believe a quote from Futurama is applicable here: "If you do too much, people get dependent on you, and if you do nothing, they lose hope ... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

I saw that episode, and thought it was a cop-out, one like every other show seems to give when discussing a religious topic. It doesn't actually say anything; it just lets people continue believing whatever they did before watching.

I'm here to say what I think and believe and give my interpretation of certain events. If you disagree then that's fine, I don't want to argue with you or anyone but this is starting to feel a bit like an interrogation.

If I'm causing any of that feeling I'm sorry, I definitely not trying to be hostile. I am, however, trying to show you the holes in your logic without much regard for your feelings, so that could be why you're feeling attacked.

The thread's whole point was only to explain the 'what' of your theology, not the 'why' and you've gone above and beyond, so thank you for that.

The second half is what doesn't make sense, because your evidence is a logical inevitability, and/or not reproducible. It also makes me wonder why God would coincidentally allow tragic things to happen if he really has our best interest at heart. I find it impossible to believe that things like Down's syndrome, starvation, cancer, etc are really necessary.

If you no not wish to respond, that's fine, I'm not expecting one. You have already explained your arguments. But if you do, I'm curious, do you follow any mainstream religion, or are these just your own personal views?

Edited October 25, 2010 by Meteor

[Kanami]

*Sigh* I'm too old for this, whatever happened to the good old days when everyone took everything as a personal attack, and retaliated in kind? :/

Anyway "prioritize".... I have to assume God has his prioritize as he supposedly causes miracles to some (your shopping frenzy guy) and completely ignores others (Starving African kid). Obviously, the "visible" prioritize aren't restricted to any specific race (Yes America, God doesn't favor you), religion (Bad things happen to Christians too) or even how "good" a person you are.

So is "God" choosing specific cases to "intervene" in, based on some divine ideology, Or does he have no control over things in general? He can only have 3 options, No control, Complete control or partial control, and if partial he'd needs to prioritize. If he has "complete control" over everything, and can solve every problem why isn't he? To teach us responsibility? Last I checked the dead don't get any smarter or better, they certainly won't learn (regardless of whether they turn to dirt, or suffer for eternity in hell).

See above: I don't think God prioritises. The way I interpret the quote is 'just because you don't have proof or can't see evidence that God works in your life, doesn't mean he doesn't: this is one explanation.'

So I should believe I had a twin brother when I was born? Just cause there's no proof or evidence that I had a twin brother, he could still have existed right?

This quote works only when the existence of both parties is certain. Eg: Just because there's no proof or evidence your mother loves you, doesn't mean she doesn't.

You're playing with "if's" there, and once we get started on those, the possibilities become infinite. What "if" God doesn't exist? What "if" he wasn't immortal and he's already deceased? What "if" he's actually some evil being who is nothing more then a tyrant?

I'd like to think "proof & evidence" isn't everything, there's no "p&e" that my friend will be a good friend, but I'd like to think she will be. There's no "p&e" my parents will return the money they owe me, but I'd like to think one day they will. (Very unlikely <_<)

God's the same thing really, there's no "proof" that "God" existed. But many seem to like the idea of some guy watching them 24/7 365 days of the year. (I think it's just creepy) And that's up to them. If you feel that cares about you, that's your problem opinion. And while I don't respect it (cause I disagree and think of it as blind faith) you are apparently entitled to it :/

I just don't see how you can cite "existence" as proof of being special. Eg: I purchased a game 8 years ago. I enjoyed playing it at the time, but now think it's a rather crappy game, and have no idea why I liked it. I still have it, but it's not special to me in any way. If someone asked if they could borrow it, I'd let them keep it for free. Only reason I haven't sold it is because I hate second hand game traders. Rip offs those sods are, buy for 50 cents, sell for 50 dollars <_<

Being a former believer, God didn't try to prevent me from leaving the faith. He might of but he's pretty stupid if he though making his followers nag and stalk would rekindle my faith. :/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question though(for everyone), what's your opinion on non-believers, you've stated that you can "agree to disagree" but are we non-believers condemn to hell? If so, is faith so important that a good man should be punished solely for lacking faith? If not why is religion even important?

[Phoenix Wright]

Byte2222, I'm extremely curious to know what these "odds" are. If you could tell me what you mean by that, that would be pretty cool. :)

Even so, as far as I know we're here to say what we think, not change what we think, and that we should be ready to agree to disagree.

Why is it so hard to change an opinion on something? I'd argue that if you can't justify your beliefs, then it's time for a change (major or minor).

It's like, if I was arguing that serial murderers are acceptable, and everything I argued trying to justify that was completely shot down, I'd question myself and ultimately change my opinion.

In my opinion it doesn't matter where you find these people that argue with you. And I also hate it when someone says "I'm not gonna change my opinion because of someone on the Internet." Well, who else is there to debate with you? Not a single one of my real-life friends enjoy debating, let alone debating about the validity of believing in a deity of any sort. The Internet is one of the best places for this stuff; you remain anonymous and can find lots of intelligent people here.

Well, that and research before you change an opinion. No use in believing what others tell you without backing it up yourself. :/

Edited October 25, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[Meteor]

Why is it so hard to change an opinion on something? I'd argue that if you can't justify your beliefs, then it's time for a change (major or minor).

It's like, if I was arguing that serial murderers are acceptable, and everything I argued trying to justify that was completely shot down, I'd question myself and ultimately change my opinion. In my opinion it doesn't matter where you find these people that argue with you. And I also hate it when someone says "I'm not gonna change my opinion because of someone on the Internet."

His beliefs are justified to himself.

I used to think I would never change my belief because of people on the internet, but eventually I did (other factors also contributed). It took years, but the light switch finally flipped. Beliefs held for a long time can take a long time to overcome. From my experience, the best thing we can do is to keep questioning beliefs, because the more I had to defend my old stance, the less I could convince myself I was right. Personally, I am just glad Byte2222 took the time to provide his input, and maybe someday our questions will help him see our point of view.

[eclipse]

*Sigh* I'm too old for this, whatever happened to the good old days when everyone took everything as a personal attack, and retaliated in kind? :/

Stuff it, whippersnapper

Question though(for everyone), what's your opinion on non-believers, you've stated that you can "agree to disagree" but are we non-believers condemn to hell? If so, is faith so important that a good man should be punished solely for lacking faith? If not why is religion even important?

I believe what I want to, and you believe what you want to. I don't really care about what happens to you in the afterlife, because following the "love thy neighbor" part is plenty hard enough!

[Zanarkin]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question though(for everyone), what's your opinion on non-believers, you've stated that you can "agree to disagree" but are we non-believers condemn to hell? If so, is faith so important that a good man should be punished solely for lacking faith? If not why is religion even important?

According to my religion teacher, non-believers go to hell, even if they are the best person in this world. Its quite messed up, a person that has been in jail for doing massacres, raping, stealing, and more, and has broken all of the commendments, is entitled to heaven for just going to a priest and asking for forgiveness, yet the best person in this world is given torture for not believing.

[Meteor]

^ Sucks if you happened to believe the wrong religion and were tortured instead, eh?

[Zanarkin]

I suppose half of this forest myself included, is going to be burned, and the herons won't be able to do a thing about it

It'll be fun to dance with the flames of hell.

Lol i find that idea ridiculous. Why would a person with who has nothing to do with God suffer something made by Him?

Edited October 25, 2010 by SlayerX

[Phoenix Wright]

Especially since there's no evidence proving He even exists.

OK guys. I just wanted to say Charles I is still alive, except now it's just the head. He's all-powerful, and entitles people to go to his Sacred Domain as long as you follow him. If you don't, you get your head chopped off over and over again for eternity.

Proof? Well, look at the things around us! All the beauty in this world can only be explained by the great will of Charles!

[Byte2222]

Byte2222, I'm extremely curious to know what these "odds" are. If you could tell me what you mean by that, that would be pretty cool. :)

I feel I need to respond it this directly. You should by now know that for complex life to form is pretty unlikely. You first need a planet that's the right temperature to facilitate complex chemistry. You need amino acids to come together and form proteins, all by random chance (and amino acids aren't the sort of things you just find knocking around on your average protoplanet). The proteins then need to find other stuff to form the first bacteria and to create a cell (the first protozoa) you need for two to come together in a symbiotic relationship (this is what mitochondria are all about).

Cells then need to work together to form a complex organism and plants are required before you can have animals. When you have land animals you then have another large hurdle: intelligence is not particularly evolutionarily advantageous. Sharks are the reason animals moved to land and have been around for longer than most other species so they're pretty successful, but you can't exactly say they're intelligent. A big brain needs much more food, so naturally brains tend to be as small as possible.

Factoring in all these factors where you rarely have the odds working in your favour and there can't be many planets in existance with life as advanced as Earth. If you want to know more then Bill Bryson's A Brief History of Nearly Everything has some great bits on the development of life and much more, it really does what it says on the tin.

Question though(for everyone), what's your opinion on non-believers, you've stated that you can "agree to disagree" but are we non-believers condemn to hell? If so, is faith so important that a good man should be punished solely for lacking faith? If not why is religion even important?

I believe that if someone's lead a good life then they should be granted a fair fate after death. I find it hard to believe that any God would condemn good people to eternal damnation just because they didn't join his club. It seems a bit like the kind of thing The Church (a generic religious body, I'm not picking a fight here) would say to try and secure your loyalty.

[Anouleth]

I feel I need to respond it this directly. You should by now know that for complex life to form is pretty unlikely. You first need a planet that's the right temperature to facilitate complex chemistry. You need amino acids to come together and form proteins, all by random chance (and amino acids aren't the sort of things you just find knocking around on your average protoplanet). The proteins then need to find other stuff to form the first bacteria and to create a cell (the first protozoa) you need for two to come together in a symbiotic relationship (this is what mitochondria are all about).

This is the thing - we have no idea what life looked like when it arose. It's not even certain that it used DNA or whether that was developed later. The very first life was probably more like a virus than the complex, highly-evolved bacteria we see today that are the products of millions of years of evolution.

Cells then need to work together to form a complex organism and plants are required before you can have animals. When you have land animals you then have another large hurdle: intelligence is not particularly evolutionarily advantageous. Sharks are the reason animals moved to land and have been around for longer than most other species so they're pretty successful, but you can't exactly say they're intelligent. A big brain needs much more food, so naturally brains tend to be as small as possible.

Why are sharks the reason that animals moved to land? The reason that animals moved to land is obvious - because there weren't any animals on land to compete with.

Factoring in all these factors where you rarely have the odds working in your favour and there can't be many planets in existance with life as advanced as Earth. If you want to know more then Bill Bryson's A Brief History of Nearly Everything has some great bits on the development of life and much more, it really does what it says on the tin.

Of course the chances of life arising in the universe are remote. That's why most of the planets we look at don't have any life. But the universe is so ridiculously, ludicrously big that the chances are probably not all that bad. There might even be more life out there, but obviously too far away for us to ever interact with.

[Phoenix Wright]

I feel I need to respond it this directly. You should by now know that for complex life to form is pretty unlikely. You first need a planet that's the right temperature to facilitate complex chemistry. You need amino acids to come together and form proteins, all by random chance (and amino acids aren't the sort of things you just find knocking around on your average protoplanet). The proteins then need to find other stuff to form the first bacteria and to create a cell (the first protozoa) you need for two to come together in a symbiotic relationship (this is what mitochondria are all about).

There's debates on whether or not our first organism had DNA. My guess is that it didn't.

Cells then need to work together to form a complex organism and plants are required before you can have animals. When you have land animals you then have another large hurdle: intelligence is not particularly evolutionarily advantageous. Sharks are the reason animals moved to land and have been around for longer than most other species so they're pretty successful, but you can't exactly say they're intelligent. A big brain needs much more food, so naturally brains tend to be as small as possible.

What, what, what? That's a bad misconception and poor example! Over the millions of years that animals have been evolving, we've all been getting smarter! I don't know of a single organism that's getting stupider as time goes by. Well, besides the organisms with no brains.

The shark did not chase out all of the other fish onto land man. Where did you find such information? I'm no expert, so I can't tell you how big of a factor it was, but what I can tell you is that the shark is not the overlord of fish and it did not make other fish evolve into mammals on the large scale that you're implying.

Factoring in all these factors where you rarely have the odds working in your favour and there can't be many planets in existance with life as advanced as Earth. If you want to know more then Bill Bryson's A Brief History of Nearly Everything has some great bits on the development of life and much more, it really does what it says on the tin.

I should really come up with something different, because this is the third or fourth time I'm quoting this guy, but it's such a good quote: In the words of Laurence Krauss: "In the Universe, rare occurrences happen all the time."

Edited October 26, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[Kanami]

I believe that if someone's lead a good life then they should be granted a fair fate after death. I find it hard to believe that any God would condemn good people to eternal damnation just because they didn't join his club. It seems a bit like the kind of thing The Church (a generic religious body, I'm not picking a fight here) would say to try and secure your loyalty.

Well at least you're not stupid. I honestly don't care what anyone says regarding this, but if anyone thinks that actually believing in "God" determines a person worth (judgement direction) then they're idiots. If God does consider it important, then I'm still not wrong, he is! XD

My opinion on this is fear tactics used by the Church too :P

Personally though, if there is a hell and heaven, and God does send you to hell for not believing him. I'd willingly go to hell. One because I hate God, but more importantly that's where my friends would be as well. I've never suffered torture before, but I'd probably prefer it over going to heaven and knowing that the people I care for are condemned to eternal suffering.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Kanami

[eclipse]

If that's how you feel, I don't think it would be polite of me to try to change your mind. If you ever want to talk (not rant) about Christianity/God/etc., you know where to find me.

[Kanami]

If that's how you feel, I don't think it would be polite of me to try to change your mind. If you ever want to talk (not rant) about Christianity/God/etc., you know where to find me.

Not sure who that was directed at, but I don't think it's impolite at all. Since anyone that's reading these comments should be willing to argue their point, but also listen to the opinion of others. It's bloody annoying when you don't want to be there, don't want to be involved and you're being forced to (Eg Door Knocking)

As for ranting, I've never actually seen you provide any decent argument/discussion, so maybe if you'd make more valid posts then it'd be worth contacting you?

[Byte2222]

What, what, what? That's a bad misconception and poor example! Over the millions of years that animals have been evolving, we've all been getting smarter! I don't know of a single organism that's getting stupider as time goes by. Well, besides the organisms with no brains.

The shark did not chase out all of the other fish onto land man. Where did you find such information? I'm no expert, so I can't tell you how big of a factor it was, but what I can tell you is that the shark is not the overlord of fish and it did not make other fish evolve into mammals on the large scale that you're implying.

My point is that intelligence is not necessarily evolutionarily advantageous, not that it's the wrong way. Brains require much more nourishment than, I do believe, any other part of the body, so to be successful an animal should have as small a brain as possible. That's not to say that being stupid is evolutionarily advantageous, because it's not, but a species that invests in intelligence has an uphill struggle to keep that brain running and survive.

As for the second part, yes, I phrased that wrong and stated something that was incorrect, but my point was that sharks have been very successful and aren't that intelligent. Sharks have been around for a long time and if I am under the correct impression then the predatory presence of the shark was one of several reasons why organisms took the risk to migrate to land but I do retract that it was the sole reason organisms moved to land and apologise for any ire I caused.

[Magical CC]

I believe in personal freedom thus I wont call anyone's beliefs stupid.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Ga-rei Sulley