FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Before you go on, I'd like to ask what approximate turn counts you are expecting in efficiency and point out that Eliwood's offense is less a problem as is his defense, which does not allow him to be placed in situations where he can attack as often.

For example,

In 12, if Marcus goes east, he most likely leaves only an archer for the others to clean up. Lowen has no business going north because he doesn't have the durability to take on that many enemies with diverse WTC. Eliwood has virtually no shot at a level.

In 13, the beginning of Eliwood's durability problems, going south to meet the enemy storm also requires surviving something like 5 attacks at once, something Eliwood cannot do, and something which slows Marcus down even if he could. Going west runs into pegs and cavs which Eliwood gets 2-3HKO'd by, and therefore cannot actively face many enemies and is forced to use vulneraries on player phases. He's 3HKO'ing pegs in return, which limits his placement in this map since they will flock to him. It's still questionable whether Eliwood has gained a level.

In 13x, going north results in getting raped by nomads and myrms. Going east runs into a mage, archer, and myrm who likely doubles him. Going south is more possible, but nomads there are still a problem and even bandits are not exp fodder when he needs to move off forest tiles, because at around 37 avo with WTA, iron axe bandits can reach 44 displayed 39 real hit, which is unreliable for dodge tanking.

In 14, one rounding soldiers isn't possible, and would be impractical anyway seeing as you've got a main group of 4 soldiers, 2 archers, and 2 mercs which may double him. Beyond that, there are 6 cavs including Erik, a nomad, a merc, an a myrm all waiting for you to leave Eliwood open to attack. The south is better, but the 2 cavs and archer exist and Guy can dispatch of this area quicker and easier.

In 15, going toward the lances is suicide. The upper right contains more enemies Eliwood doesn't want to face, and while there's axes all over the left, the chokepoint does not rest on a pillar and so an iron axe fighter can have a 48 displayed 46.5 real chance to hit, and combined with a hand axe fighter, has about a 10% chance of death. Furthermore, your healer cannot be tied down to Eliwood due to the multiple fronts, which altogether makes gaining exp here even difficult.

Level 3 seems like a more proper estimate for Eliwood coming into 16. The Hector support, which while is quick to build, is impractical to use as Hector is likely facing lance users which Eliwood gets killed all too easily by. In some places, Hector gets shipped by Marcus anyway, which also serves to reduce the effectiveness of the support.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I just did an early promote Sain run of Lyn Mode which had Lyn come out at level 7.35, AND I matched or beat Aquilae's turncounts. Florina kinda suffered for it, but it's not a huge deal.

That said, I'm trying an efficient run that shoots for Geitz and Linus FFO, so we'll see how I can manage to pump levels into Eliwood. Chances are not good, though. Weapons kinda hit the nail on the head.

[RNG Princess]

This thread reminded me of something that made me curious so I thought it was approprite to post it here :).

Archers having no enemy phase is counted against them, and it makes sense. I'm wondering if other classes with no enemy phase get points taken off as well for having no enemy phase, like healers and dancers. Or is it nulled to them because they aren't in the combat area in the first place?

Edited January 15, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

It's not so much as counting against them as it is not counting for them.

[Anouleth]

This thread reminded me of something that made me curious so I thought it was approprite to post it here :).

Archers having no enemy phase is counted against them, and it makes sense. I'm wondering if other classes with no enemy phase get points taken off as well for having no enemy phase, like healers and dancers. Or is it nulled to them because they aren't in the combat area in the first place?

The job of all units that can only fight (like archers) is combat. But if like an archer they are 2-range locked, then obviously they cannot enter combat many times at all, so their contribution to the playthrough will necessarily be small (and they will level at glacial speeds). Even though healers and dancers have no enemy phase, they still have a good contribution to the playthrough because they can do stuff other than combat.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Geriba]

Before you go on, I'd like to ask what approximate turn counts you are expecting in efficiency and point out that Eliwood's offense is less a problem as is his defense, which does not allow him to be placed in situations where he can attack as often.

For example,

In 12, if Marcus goes east, he most likely leaves only an archer for the others to clean up. Lowen has no business going north because he doesn't have the durability to take on that many enemies with diverse WTC. Eliwood has virtually no shot at a level.

In 13, the beginning of Eliwood's durability problems, going south to meet the enemy storm also requires surviving something like 5 attacks at once, something Eliwood cannot do, and something which slows Marcus down even if he could. Going west runs into pegs and cavs which Eliwood gets 2-3HKO'd by, and therefore cannot actively face many enemies and is forced to use vulneraries on player phases. He's 3HKO'ing pegs in return, which limits his placement in this map since they will flock to him. It's still questionable whether Eliwood has gained a level.

In 13x, going north results in getting raped by nomads and myrms. Going east runs into a mage, archer, and myrm who likely doubles him. Going south is more possible, but nomads there are still a problem and even bandits are not exp fodder when he needs to move off forest tiles, because at around 37 avo with WTA, iron axe bandits can reach 44 displayed 39 real hit, which is unreliable for dodge tanking.

In 14, one rounding soldiers isn't possible, and would be impractical anyway seeing as you've got a main group of 4 soldiers, 2 archers, and 2 mercs which may double him. Beyond that, there are 6 cavs including Erik, a nomad, a merc, an a myrm all waiting for you to leave Eliwood open to attack. The south is better, but the 2 cavs and archer exist and Guy can dispatch of this area quicker and easier.

In 15, going toward the lances is suicide. The upper right contains more enemies Eliwood doesn't want to face, and while there's axes all over the left, the chokepoint does not rest on a pillar and so an iron axe fighter can have a 48 displayed 46.5 real chance to hit, and combined with a hand axe fighter, has about a 10% chance of death. Furthermore, your healer cannot be tied down to Eliwood due to the multiple fronts, which altogether makes gaining exp here even difficult.

Level 3 seems like a more proper estimate for Eliwood coming into 16. The Hector support, which while is quick to build, is impractical to use as Hector is likely facing lance users which Eliwood gets killed all too easily by. In some places, Hector gets shipped by Marcus anyway, which also serves to reduce the effectiveness of the support.

We can do a defensive analysis if you'd like, but step back and think about things conceptually. Eliwood needs to get 6 levels in 5 chapters in order to match Lyn's starting level from a run-of-the-mill LHM. One is a Route chapter, another a Survive chapter, and Eliwood will without question be gaining a good level to a level and a half each here. To be clear, Eliwood does ORKO the Chapter 14 soldiers, which is a huge help. That means he needs to gain three levels around four chapters. Certainly not too much of a hassle.

And frankly, I think your commentary here is more than a little unfair. Eliwood certainly struggles during early HHM because everybody struggles. Fine, exclude Hector and Marcus for a moment (and Oswin, because lol 4 move on an efficiency run): Lowen, Rebecca, Dorcas, Bartre, and Matthew are all having the same problems. In each map, Marcus is going to be blitzing, leaving the scraps to the units mentioned above plus Hector, who alone won't be getting all the kills. Eliwood's in a pretty decent position to be picking up some good kills, and six levels over five chapters- two of which are begging to be abused for experience- isn't too much to ask for.

[RNG Princess]

The job of all units that can only fight (like archers) is combat. But if like an archer they are 2-range locked, then obviously they cannot enter combat many times at all, so their contribution to the playthrough will necessarily be small (and they will level at glacial speeds). Even though healers and dancers have no enemy phase, they still have a good contribution to the playthrough because they can do stuff other than combat.

Ohhh that makes sense ^_^ while all the combatants compete for kills, healers and dancers don't and they're still usefu. Right?

[dondon151]

Yes, that is correct.

To be clear, Eliwood does ORKO the Chapter 14 soldiers, which is a huge help. That means he needs to gain three levels around four chapters. Certainly not too much of a hassle.

Huh? No, he doesn't. Chapter 14 soldiers have 25-26 HP and 0-2 def (most have 1 def). Eliwood needs 15 atk to 2HKO. 8 str with Rapier. Around 8/0, which is not happening.

[Anouleth]

And frankly, I think your commentary here is more than a little unfair. Eliwood certainly struggles during early HHM because everybody struggles. Fine, exclude Hector and Marcus for a moment (and Oswin, because lol 4 move on an efficiency run): Lowen, Rebecca, Dorcas, Bartre, and Matthew are all having the same problems. In each map, Marcus is going to be blitzing, leaving the scraps to the units mentioned above plus Hector, who alone won't be getting all the kills. Eliwood's in a pretty decent position to be picking up some good kills, and six levels over five chapters- two of which are begging to be abused for experience- isn't too much to ask for.

Lowen has 2 more strength, six more HP, and 2 more defense than Eliwood as well as stellar durability growths and lance access. He is not having the same problems as Eliwood. Dorcas has around 5 more strength and while he's a point behind in defense, he has twice as much HP and WTA against lance users.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Geriba]

Yes, that is correct.

Huh? No, he doesn't. Chapter 14 soldiers have 25-26 HP and 0-2 def (most have 1 def). Eliwood needs 15 atk to 2HKO. 8 str with Rapier. Around 8/0, which is not happening.

Did I do my math wrong? Let's see...

14 atk, 82-86 hit, 0-1 AS, 0 crit; 24-26 HP, 0-2 def, 0-2 res, 0-2 avo

Remember also that at this point, Eliwood's straddling 8/9 AS and 13/14 TS. With zero defense, Eliwood does it regardless of HP value with 14 TS and usually kills with 13 TS; with one defense, Eliwood needs the 14 TS and minimum-value HP; and with two defense, he can't kill them.

I see the problem I made, by the way: I looked at level 2 soldiers instead of level 3 soldiers, which are stuck with a zero defensive stat. Nice work keeping track of my math, Serenes! Still, he's certainly two-shotting every soldier, and one-rounds quite a few. This might put a small dent in his performance, but that remains to be seen.

Lowen has 2 more strength, six more HP, and 2 more defense than Eliwood as well as stellar durability growths and lance access. He is not having the same problems as Eliwood. Dorcas has around 5 more strength and while he's a point behind in defense, he has twice as much HP and WTA against lance users.

Pretty-looking numbers, but I'm not sure any of them matter. At the end of the day, neither of them can charge enemies recklessly, meaning they're forced to stay back with the group, and neither of them can one-round consistently (or at all, frankly), meaning that they're at best setting up kills. In fact, their defensive edge may actually help Eliwood, as it puts them in a better position for them to set up kills and him to clean up, since he "can't afford" the damage otherwise.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Jaffar7

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

We can do a defensive analysis if you'd like, but step back and think about things conceptually. Eliwood needs to get 6 levels in 5 chapters in order to match Lyn's starting level from a run-of-the-mill LHM. One is a Route chapter, another a Survive chapter, and Eliwood will without question be gaining a good level to a level and a half each here. To be clear, Eliwood does ORKO the Chapter 14 soldiers, which is a huge help. That means he needs to gain three levels around four chapters. Certainly not too much of a hassle.

I have thought about it conceptually. I have also thought about it practically, as in what results when I play the game, and this was what I found to apply. Accepted debating methods such as looking at the RKO for and against random enemies undercut underlying realities, such as that a unit may never cross paths with that enemy anyway, assuming full hp going into every fight is unrealistic seeing as you only have one healer and vulneraries cost a phase/heal at a loss/whatever, getting 3HKO'd over 2HKO'd really doesn't matter when you're usually facing 5 enemies, and so on.

And frankly, I think your commentary here is more than a little unfair. Eliwood certainly struggles during early HHM because everybody struggles. Fine, exclude Hector and Marcus for a moment (and Oswin, because lol 4 move on an efficiency run): Lowen, Rebecca, Dorcas, Bartre, and Matthew are all having the same problems. In each map, Marcus is going to be blitzing, leaving the scraps to the units mentioned above plus Hector, who alone won't be getting all the kills. Eliwood's in a pretty decent position to be picking up some good kills, and six levels over five chapters- two of which are begging to be abused for experience- isn't too much to ask for.

The fact that other units struggle does not justify Eliwood gaining levels. Again, while it has been accepted for something like a level a chapter, practice does not reflect as well. How is Eliwood gaining the levels on those chapters?

[Anouleth]

Did I do my math wrong? Let's see...

14 atk, 82-86 hit, 0-1 AS, 0 crit; 24-26 HP, 0-2 def, 0-2 res, 0-2 avo

Remember also that at this point, Eliwood's straddling 8/9 AS and 13/14 TS. With zero defense, Eliwood does it regardless of HP value with 14 TS and usually kills with 13 TS; with one defense, Eliwood needs the 14 TS and minimum-value HP; and with two defense, he can't kill them.

I have no idea what this means. What is TS? Do you mean attack? I also find it hard to believe that Eliwood would have 8 strength by this point. I didn't even manage to get Eliwood to level 8 until Chapter 16 in a ranked playthrough, let alone in unranked play where he would be more like level 6. He probably wouldn't 2HKO anything except Mages, which is laughable. And then Lyn shows up and has 15 attack but with the added advantage of doubling everything under the sun so she can actually 2RKO.

Pretty-looking numbers, but I'm not sure any of them matter. At the end of the day, neither of them can charge enemies recklessly, meaning they're forced to stay back with the group, and neither of them can one-round consistently (or at all, frankly), meaning that they're at best setting up kills. In fact, their defensive edge may actually help Eliwood, as it puts them in a better position for them to set up kills and him to clean up, since he "can't afford" the damage otherwise.

They 1-round Soldiers, which is better than Eliwood. And to be honest, at this stage of the game every point of attack counts. An extra point of attack can let you take a kill that Rebecca weakened, or allow for combos that wouldn't be possible otherwise. I don't suppose you appreciate just how bad 5 strength is either. A level 8 Eliwood with Rapier, for instance, fails even to 2HKO Pegasus Knights in Chapter 16 and doesn't 2HKO Mercenaries either.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[grandjackal]

Yeaaahhhhh, I'm not even close to convinced about Eliwood's early performance. Not only were some parts of your analysis wrong, and you seemed to forget about Eliwood's piss weak defenses during your analysis and how we have to protect him while he's eating his EXP lunches, we also forgot a few facts about some of these chapters. or example, chapter 13. This would be one of those chapters that Seven mentioned where "Marcus is raping the shit out of everything because he can", chapter 14 being a similar case, or how Talons Alight you can kill Sealen on turn 2 to stop all reinforcements (and get a nice dragonshield too), making the chapter a resort to build supports and nab the treasures. Here we see a problem with him getting a a level and a quarter exp for these two chapters. In short, I am finding your levels for Eliwood when Lyn shows up to be inflated. Level 7 sounds rather absurd to me, 4-5 sounds more accurate.

21.2 HP, 6.8 Str, 7 Skl, 8.6 Spd, 8.8 Lck, 6.2 Def, 1.4 Res

Ties HP, might actually be losing in Str, the speed problems I noted in my initial look with Eliwood is clearly there (not that 9 speed would help much more, common speed of enemies is 6), and Eliwood is still 2RKOd by a good majority of the map (Lancers and steel swordies, myrms double him (one doubles him even if he did have 9 speed, mages), so the higher defense is barely mattering at the moment. This is ignoring we could also have given Lyn in her mode the Robe and/or the Ring. If she got both, you're basically comparing this trash to Raven Lite. However, she only needs 1 or the other to make Eliwood look more like a goon than he already was.

But hey, looking at your numbers for level 7 anyways, Eliwood still doesn't really win. As stated, 9 AS doesn't double much else (congratulations, you doubled a cavalier if he wields a javelin and got screwed in the speed procs, while Lyn is doubling them all and killing them no less). He'd get 3HKOd, but I don't think we care to have Eliwood take shots anyways since 3HKOd is hardly any better, and again Lyn can tie that up if she has gotten the robe. 9 AS still doesn't double anything Lyn can't already double (Rapier to Mani, they'd be tied unless Lyn got hte Energy Ring, then Eliwood is losing still), while Lyn is a speed proc off Nomads. Eliwood's got 22 effective might, which is just 1 might off cavaliers since it's WTD, while Lyn doesn't actually have this problem due to the additional slayer might the Katti gives (25 effective might, a clean kill of 28 HP 8 Def cavs even if we did consider WTD). If Lyn did indeed get the Energy Ring, we can add Armors to that list (Since then it would be 25 might vs 23-24 HP and 12-13 Def, and I say 25 mt after Energy Ring due to WTD causing less slayer damage by 2).

So yeah, even if we got him 6 levels, he's still losing. If Lyn got the robe, Eliwood wins absolutely nothing on her.

[Geriba]

For funsies, I went ahead and booted up a new HHM game. Unfortunately, I couldn't even begin to justify those levels I gave Eliwood. Surprisingly, this isn't because of a lack of defense/offense- I think I was generally right about those- but because I underestimated just how much Marcus is dominating the early game. Chapter 12, Eliwood gets literally nothing; Chapter 13, he's lucky to get a level; Chapter 13x, maybe a half-level. He can probably get a level or two over the next two chapters, but that puts him at about level 4, and I'm not sure that's going to be able to put him over the edge of Lyn.

I think I'm still just too conditioned for ranked run debates, where Marcus isn't putting himself in the middle of combat every turn and you actually need to spread experience around. Because Eliwood isn't going to get babied kills the same way he would on an S-Rank run, the number of levels he can reasonably gain is seriously cut. I'm going to go ahead and concede here, then, because the rest of my case depended upon a negligible level gap between Lyn and Eliwood, not a full three or four levels. Someone else can take up the charge if they'd like, but I think it's a lost cause.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Jaffar7

[grandjackal]

Allow me to have one of my crazy moments again though, now that we got Eliwood out of hte way.

If we consider the Ring and Robe on Lyn, I am drawing a lot of similarities to Raven, with one huge exception. Raven cannot ORKO Armors because we have no Armorslayer until...Item Locations doesn't mention one (I remember you can get one, so I'm going to venture it's outdated. Proof being that the list doesn't include the Longsword from Pirate Ship), it's not buyable in normal stores until like Battle Preperations, and in Secret Shops it's only buyable in Four Fanged Offense (Loyd's chapter is impossible to get unless someone can find a way to get to it in 2 turns as it's right next to Loyd, Linus's version seems far out of the way and surrounded by wyverns when only fliers are gonna get there in any reasonable time). Lyn's got armors on him (unless someone would be so kind as to point out when we get an Armorslayer). We get the Longsword before we fight any real cavs, but it's a 20 use weapon with less acc and far less crit. Both kill anyways, so Lyn wins cause her weapon lasts longer and has more crit for the occasional counter avoidance.

Now obviously, one says it comes at the cost of the ring and robe going to Lyn, and while that is true, she does have a way to pay for herself because it gives us the excuse to not use Raven. What does this mean? Well, that Longsword and Armorslayer can go to someone else for starters (like Kent). However, the big one is the 5K from selling the Hero Crest. This is 3 more Physics or nearly 5 more killer weapons if we assume silver card (I will assume one or the other since I imagine time is constrained in Dragon's Gate). Regardless, it means more something we normally wouldn't have in some shape or form. So, while we may lose Raven, we can still keep his performance with a boosted Lyn, AND have a better equipped army on top of it through Raven's weapons getting distributed elsewhere, and having more money to buy better equips with.

So, this sound good, or still losing to others getting the robe or ring?

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Rodykitty]

That's a Grandjackal post, alright.

[grandjackal]

Are you forgetting that selling the Heaven's Seal instead gives us double the money received from selling the Hero's Crest?

True, but the 5K comes in time to be useful for things like extra Physics, Barriers from the secret shop in Kinship's Bond, or Reaver weapons from the chapter 24 shop. After 24, Reaver weapons are no longer available. So while we could get an extra 5K out of a Heaven Crest, there's not really much to spend it on. All the juicy shopping comes before 26, and while 5 more killers than a hero crest would net us is nice, we could have stuff earlier with the hero crest cash along with stuff that loses availability after chapter 24. Barrier staffs don't fall out of the sky, and can help protect against all the Bolting/Pursge/Status staffs later in the game, helping make something like CoD less painful. Reaver weapons are nice for both Lyn and Hector who have problems being locked to 1 weapon, so the additional triangle control is nice for Lyn's survivability and Hector's offense.

Then of course, there's the argument of we have more money than we know what to do with by 26. In the least, it's 3 more Physics from Dragon's Gate for when we're merely rich instead of stupendously rich.

EDIT: Hi FE3 Player! MSN got bugged.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Amaterasu

[Rodykitty]

I'd rather give Raven more Mov and Hand Axes than to have more Physics.

Physics *would* seem valuable, since you'd be using them on Lyn a lot.

[dondon151]

You'll have enough money for Physics and Barriers with or without selling the Hero Crest. Just don't be stupid about shopping.

[grandjackal]

Hnnnn, yeah, I guess that was just a crazy thought I had. Move on to less silly things.

[Mekkah]

If we consider the Ring and Robe on Lyn, I am drawing a lot of similarities to Raven, with one huge exception. Raven cannot ORKO Armors because we have no Armorslayer

I see what you mean. Come on, look at them:

7/0 Lyn - 8.4 atk, 12.6 AS -- 33.5 avo, 27.2 hp, 3.2 def

5/0 Raven - 8.0 atk, 13.0 AS -- 28.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 5.0 def

Lyn is totally better, considering Mani Katti and that avo lead and, and, and-

Wait, that's NM Raven.

5/0 Raven - 10.0 atk, 15.0 AS -- 32.0 avo, 29.0 hp, 6.0 def

Don't forget 3 more con.

[Aquilae]

I think I can see Raven dropping below Priscilla and Ninils. Raven has been very useful in my run, but I'd hesitate to rank him above Priscilla and Ninils. Raven isn't very useful before promotion, because he is locked to swords and faces WTD from Cavs and PKs, meaning his combat isn't stellar and he can't be exposed to too many enemies at once. Raven does gain a fairly huge boost from promotion, but he is still restricted by his 6 Move, and at endgame he is competing with other 6 Move units for a deployment slot, like Pent and Harken, since deployment slots are fairly tight around that period.

I found Raven's combat lead a godsend in chapters with tanky and fast enemies, like Genesis or Cog of Destiny, where he is probably one of the only units that can consistently ORKO the strong promoted enemies. Other than that, Raven's combat lead isn't that notable as enemies are generally weak. However, I may be wrong on this since I promoted Raven fairly late (before 23x), and I have a feeling he can contribute quite a bit in Kinship's Bond and Crazed Beast (He wasn't promoted at Chapter 22, and I didn't field him in Chapter 25).

On an unrelated note, I don't think Florina is the best candidate for the LM Energy Ring, since she doesn't have many combat-related contributions due to her 4 Con and lackluster durability. Kent would gain a better boost from the Energy Ring though, since he has better AS and durability than Florina (oddly enough, Kent's strength isn't that much better than Florina's, about a point better at most from my observations). Not sure if this will affect any positions on the tier list, but I think it's something to consider.

[Geriba]

I think I can see Raven dropping below Priscilla and Ninils. Raven has been very useful in my run, but I'd hesitate to rank him above Priscilla and Ninils. Raven isn't very useful before promotion, because he is locked to swords and faces WTD from Cavs and PKs, meaning his combat isn't stellar and he can't be exposed to too many enemies at once. Raven does gain a fairly huge boost from promotion, but he is still restricted by his 6 Move, and at endgame he is competing with other 6 Move units for a deployment slot, like Pent and Harken, since deployment slots are fairly tight around that period.

I lol'd.

[dondon151]

Aquilae has a valid point. Raven's combat really isn't anything impressive before promotion, and he generally isn't doing important things anyway.