FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Anouleth]

I lol'd.

But it's true. 29HP/6DEF is nothing to write home about especially when you have sword lock to back it up. He also faces crit from a lot of stuff, but a lot of people don't care about facing crit.

[Geriba]

Aquilae has a valid point. Raven's combat really isn't anything impressive before promotion, and he generally isn't doing important things anyway.

I hate to be on the opposing end of dondon during an FE debate, but I can't let these bases pass by undefended:

Raven HM (Lv. 5)

HP: 29

Str: 10

Skill: 13

Speed: 15

Luck: 2

Def: 6

Res: 2

That puts him at 18 strength and 15 AS with an iron, and 21 strength/10 AS with a steel. That's ridiculous period considering his growths, much less as a level 5 unit with so much room to grow. He comes a little late, but starts great and only gets greater. He's certainly your best non-Marcus combat unit.

[Florete]

and 21 strength/10 AS with a steel.

Steel weighs 10 and he has 8 Con. That's 13 AS.

[Narga_Rocks]

Steel weighs 10 and he has 8 Con. That's 13 AS.

Also it looked like he was using the mt of iron axe and steel axe.

Raven has 15 atk with iron sword, 14 with wtd.

Raven has 18 atk with steel sword. 19 atk with killing edge. And with 8 con he loses 4 AS with iron blade and so has 11 AS with 19 atk. Also 9 AS and 21 atk with Steel Blade.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Geriba]

Also it looked like he was using the mt of iron axe and steel axe.

Raven has 15 atk with iron sword, 14 with wtd.

Raven has 18 atk with steel sword. 19 atk with killing edge. And with 8 con he loses 4 AS with iron blade and so has 11 AS with 19 atk. Also 9 AS and 21 atk with Steel Blade.

Math is not my strong suit, I guess. Nor is clicking "swords" instead of "axes." Sloppy sloppy!

[Geriba]

In seriousness, though, I feel like this list could use some major revision. Raven is far too high up, for example. He's still second-to-(almost)-none in the combat department, but in an efficiency run, "killing things" is hardly a significant achievement when Marcus is blitzing the early-game and Saladin/Kent/Florina are blitzing the mid- to late-game. In a list based around rapid clear time, Raven excels at getting rid of the refuse so that other units can zoom in and shave off a few turns. A useful role, to be sure, and one he shares with most units, but Raven doesn't deserve to be put above, say, Florina.

Healers are my next qualm. For comparison's sake, look at a recent Serenes Ranked List: they're at equivalent places, by and large, compared to this Efficiency List. Yet on a ranked run, they have the luxury of extra turns and contribute primarily to the experience rank. So why are they so high here? Early-game healing is nice for survival, but hardly a game-changer. There's no incentive to spam barrier/torch as there is in a ranked run, so healers won't be promoting early (or at all). And not only is healing less of an issue in an efficiency run, but there's simply so much more competition. Pent, of course, but also an early-promoted Erk, Canas, and Lucius all compete with Serra and Priscilla; as they can attack as well as heal, they're far superior to their staved-locked counterparts. Novelty staves like Warp only come into play late in the game, when you have high-magic prepromotes like Pent who do the job better anyway. I can't fathom why the healers are so high.

As far as the dancer/bard duo goes, I think they probably ought to be above Raven as well. Ninils hits hardest where it matters most: reducing the total turn count. Of course, most of their usefulness in an Efficiency List is contingent upon the high-movement, high-utility units (as opposed to a Ranked List, where Ninils come in handy with just about any ragtag group); putting them just beneath the cavaliers and Florina seems appropriate.

My proposed changes: Florina, Lowen, and Ninils above Raven (in that order, probably, although I know Lowen/Florina is hotly contested), and the healers way down. Not sure about Matthew, but I'm assuming he's there for the silver card and miscellaneous thief utility, so that seems appropriate.

[Anouleth]

Healers are my next qualm. For comparison's sake, look at a recent Serenes Ranked List: they're at equivalent places, by and large, compared to this Efficiency List. Yet on a ranked run, they have the luxury of extra turns and contribute primarily to the experience rank. So why are they so high here? Early-game healing is nice for survival, but hardly a game-changer. There's no incentive to spam barrier/torch as there is in a ranked run, so healers won't be promoting early (or at all). And not only is healing less of an issue in an efficiency run, but there's simply so much more competition. Pent, of course, but also an early-promoted Erk, Canas, and Lucius all compete with Serra and Priscilla; as they can attack as well as heal, they're far superior to their staved-locked counterparts. Novelty staves like Warp only come into play late in the game, when you have high-magic prepromotes like Pent who do the job better anyway. I can't fathom why the healers are so high.

Well, Erk, Canas and Lucius all have the obvious flaw of needing Guiding Rings and having crappy weapon ranks (Lucius not so much). Priscilla can rescue-drop. I don't necessarily disagree with you but you are underselling the healers.

[Florete]

For healers: Check out dondon's reviews of Serra and Priscilla. And that's max efficiency, where by your logic they'd be even worse, since this list isn't max efficiency. Basically, no matter how you play, staff users are quite valuable.

[Geriba]

For healers: Check out dondon's reviews of Serra and Priscilla. And that's max efficiency, where by your logic they'd be even worse, since this list isn't max efficiency. Basically, no matter how you play, staff users are quite valuable.

Great, dondon's analyses are usually excellent. Let's dissect this Serra review piece by piece:

Serra is one of two earlygame staff users, and thus has an important niche. Although the only staves available earlygame are of the Heal and Mend varieties, it essentially frees up a player phase for a combat unit or enables a more extensive enemy phase.

That's an interesting way to look at healing. A 15-HP Lowen can't extend himself as far as, say, a 25-HP Lowen. Makes sense. But this would apply much more in a ranked run, where all units are encouraged to take on kills. Not so here. Thanks to Blitzarcus, most units will be lucky to scrape in a few kills per chapter, if that; the Big Man handles the rest. Healing becomes a method for lesser units to get slightly-easier experience kills early on, which is hardly an essential function for the team.

More staves become available midgame, most notably Torch, Barrier, and Physic. Torch allows for a more flexible extended vision range in fog of war maps; Barrier is a very easily spammable staff for EXP and WEXP in addition to being important in its own right for enabling a plethora of strategies that would otherwise be too risky or impossible without a res buffer; Physic is just an incredibly useful staff because no longer is Serra required to be near combat in order to heal allies.

IIRC, in HHM, the first torch staff is obtained in Ch.19, the first barrier in Ch.20, and the first psychic in Ch.21 (secret shop); in other words, Priscilla and Serra are only promoted from refuse-kill buffers to moderately useful utility units 12 chapters in. The torch staff is good, but there are plenty of actual torches floating around, and it's highly questionable that either unit will have reached an A staff level by that point. Which leaves barrier, no doubt a highly useful staff; but does it alone justify their high placement?

Lategame, a combination of Warp, Rescue, and Hammerne trivialize a handful of otherwise long, difficult maps.

Pent's a lock for warp and rescue, and hammerne- while good- is hardly a Serra/Priscilla exclusive. I'm beginning to feel as though the placement of these two revolves around the assumption that a 10K fee for a Guiding Ring somehow makes early promotion of Erk/Canas/Lucius a non-possibility. All in all, Serra and Priscilla probably shave off a few turns overall, but it's not much, and their contribution to team utility is exaggerated.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Narga_Rocks]

Math is not my strong suit, I guess. Nor is clicking "swords" instead of "axes." Sloppy sloppy!

In seriousness, though, I feel like this list could use some major revision. Raven is far too high up, for example. He's still second-to-(almost)-none in the combat department, but in an efficiency run, "killing things" is hardly a significant achievement when Marcus is blitzing the early-game and Saladin/Kent/Florina are blitzing the mid- to late-game. In a list based around rapid clear time, Raven excels at getting rid of the refuse so that other units can zoom in and shave off a few turns. A useful role, to be sure, and one he shares with most units, but Raven doesn't deserve to be put above, say, Florina.

Healers are my next qualm. For comparison's sake, look at a recent Serenes Ranked List: they're at equivalent places, by and large, compared to this Efficiency List. Yet on a ranked run, they have the luxury of extra turns and contribute primarily to the experience rank. So why are they so high here? Early-game healing is nice for survival, but hardly a game-changer. There's no incentive to spam barrier/torch as there is in a ranked run, so healers won't be promoting early (or at all). And not only is healing less of an issue in an efficiency run, but there's simply so much more competition. Pent, of course, but also an early-promoted Erk, Canas, and Lucius all compete with Serra and Priscilla; as they can attack as well as heal, they're far superior to their staved-locked counterparts. Novelty staves like Warp only come into play late in the game, when you have high-magic prepromotes like Pent who do the job better anyway. I can't fathom why the healers are so high.

As far as the dancer/bard duo goes, I think they probably ought to be above Raven as well. Ninils hits hardest where it matters most: reducing the total turn count. Of course, most of their usefulness in an Efficiency List is contingent upon the high-movement, high-utility units (as opposed to a Ranked List, where Ninils come in handy with just about any ragtag group); putting them just beneath the cavaliers and Florina seems appropriate.

My proposed changes: Florina, Lowen, and Ninils above Raven (in that order, probably, although I know Lowen/Florina is hotly contested), and the healers way down. Not sure about Matthew, but I'm assuming he's there for the silver card and miscellaneous thief utility, so that seems appropriate.

I guess I'll let this one go without a warn since at least they were almost an hour apart. But seriously, this isn't gamefaqs. Stop double posting.

[Geriba]

I guess I'll let this one go without a warn since at least they were almost an hour apart. But seriously, this isn't gamefaqs. Stop double posting.

Didn't realize double posting was a bigger deal than, say, responding with a meaningless and empty message insulting my original board while threatening two hour-apart, page-split posts as a warnable offensive. Don't worry though, I'm on board with the forum's rules (and its priorities, apparently).

[Narga_Rocks]

Didn't realize double posting was a bigger deal than, say, responding with a meaningless and empty message insulting my original board while threatening two hour-apart, page-split posts as a warnable offensive. Don't worry though, I'm on board with the forum's rules (and its priorities, apparently).

Insulting? Gamefaqs has zero double post rules (as far as I can tell). That's all I was thinking of.

And they weren't two hours apart. 53 minutes. Also, I put the post in the topic since using the warn system didn't get you to stop double-posting after the previous one. And mods posting in threads "off-topic" to point out rule-violations is obviously okay. It's done a lot here.

Oh, and you might want to read all the rules, since you arguably violated this one:

"Avoid publicly questioning us on policies. We will listen to a well reasoned opinion on why policies should be different, but this needs to be done through PM or the ticket system, preferably the latter if available."

It's 3.2.

[Anouleth]

Someone's getting lippy.

That's an interesting way to look at healing. A 15-HP Lowen can't extend himself as far as, say, a 25-HP Lowen. Makes sense. But this would apply much more in a ranked run, where all units are encouraged to take on kills. Not so here. Thanks to Blitzarcus, most units will be lucky to scrape in a few kills per chapter, if that; the Big Man handles the rest. Healing becomes a method for lesser units to get slightly-easier experience kills early on, which is hardly an essential function for the team.

It's useful. If Priscilla helps Lowen and Kent get more kills, that is helping them level up and gain experience. Yes, you can blitz the earlygame with Marcus, but it's helpful and desirable to train other units alongside him.

IIRC, in HHM, the first torch staff is obtained in Ch.19, the first barrier in Ch.20, and the first psychic in Ch.21 (secret shop); in other words, Priscilla and Serra are only promoted from refuse-kill buffers to moderately useful utility units 12 chapters in. The torch staff is good, but there are plenty of actual torches floating around, and it's highly questionable that either unit will have reached an A staff level by that point. Which leaves barrier, no doubt a highly useful staff; but does it alone justify their high placement?

I don't know what A staff rank has to do with anything. Nor do I understand how keeping characters alive with Physic is only moderately useful.

Plus Torches take up player phases and don't reach as far as Torch staves. The Torch staff automatically has five more range than a regular torch, which can be useful.

Pent's a lock for warp and rescue, and hammerne- while good- is hardly a Serra/Priscilla exclusive. I'm beginning to feel as though the placement of these two revolves around the assumption that a 10K fee for a Guiding Ring somehow makes early promotion of Erk/Canas/Lucius a non-possibility. All in all, Serra and Priscilla probably shave off a few turns overall, but it's not much, and their contribution to team utility is exaggerated.

It's more than 10k. Guiding Rings take time to steal.

[Geriba]

Insulting? Gamefaqs has zero double post rules (as far as I can tell). That's all I was thinking of.

And they weren't two hours apart. 53 minutes. Also, I put the post in the topic since using the warn system didn't get you to stop double-posting after the previous one. And mods posting in threads "off-topic" to point out rule-violations is obviously okay. It's done a lot here.

Oh, and you might want to read all the rules, since you arguably violated this one:

"Avoid publicly questioning us on policies. We will listen to a well reasoned opinion on why policies should be different, but this needs to be done through PM or the ticket system, preferably the latter if available."

It's 3.2.

I expected a PM for the double-posting thing, frankly, but if that's SF policy, then fair's fair. I'll go ahead and delete the previous post of mine to avoid getting any further off-topic.

EDIT: And you can't delete posts here lol. Time to make this post semi-useful and relevant:

Someone's getting lippy.

It's useful. If Priscilla helps Lowen and Kent get more kills, that is helping them level up and gain experience. Yes, you can blitz the earlygame with Marcus, but it's helpful and desirable to train other units alongside him.

I don't know what A staff rank has to do with anything. Nor do I understand how keeping characters alive with Physic is only moderately useful.

Plus Torches take up player phases and don't reach as far as Torch staves. The Torch staff automatically has five more range than a regular torch, which can be useful.

It's more than 10k. Guiding Rings take time to steal.

No disagreement about how it's useful to train units besides Marcus. You mentioned Lowen and Kent, but I'd say that Florina is the one who benefits the most, given her fragile nature. The point, however, remains: Marcus is dealing with the large bulk of enemies, leaving scraps on the sidelines. Healing helps here, but assuming all healing options magically disappeared during the early game, little would change. Marcus would rush, other units would gang up on fodder for experience feeding.

The "A staff" comment is about physic, which is actually a B staff (mixed up with fortify). Keeping characters live with physic is certainly helpful, but 1) it doesn't come into play until Ch.21 at the earliest, and 2) is better done by people with longer ranges, aka Pent and promoted mages. Finally, the torch staff commentary was not meant to discount it entirely, but simply to put things in perspective. Take Ch.21, for example. Not every unit is going to be attacking on turn 1, and it's almost natural to employ a regular torch during that time; while a torch staff helps, a torch use helps almost as much.

As for the guiding ring comment, consider that even if you feel that robbing it off the boss during Pirate Ship isn't worth your trouble, there's one conveniently in a chest during Dragon's Gate. I'm not suggesting you promote all of your mages; one alone will suffice in putting the healers relatively out of business.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Anouleth]

No disagreement about how it's useful to train units besides Marcus. You mentioned Lowen and Kent, but I'd say that Florina is the one who benefits the most, given her fragile nature. The point, however, remains: Marcus is dealing with the large bulk of enemies, leaving scraps on the sidelines. Healing helps here, but assuming all healing options magically disappeared during the early game, little would change. Marcus would rush, other units would gang up on fodder for experience feeding.

Congratulations, you figured out that Marcus is good, but there are still a lot of frail people. Even with Marcus around, enemies will generally prioritize the weaker units, like Eliwood or Lyn or even Dorcas. And especially the supposed 'competition', like Erk, Canas and Lucius. And if you are desperately trying to scrape kills you cannot afford to sit around popping Vulneraries.

The "A staff" comment is about physic, which is actually a B staff (mixed up with fortify). Keeping characters live with physic is certainly helpful, but 1) it doesn't come into play until Ch.21 at the earliest, and 2) is better done by people with longer ranges, aka Pent and promoted mages. Finally, the torch staff commentary was not meant to discount it entirely, but simply to put things in perspective. Take Ch.21, for example. Not every unit is going to be attacking on turn 1, and it's almost natural to employ a regular torch during that time; while a torch staff helps, a torch use helps almost as much.

Promoted mages are unlikely to ever reach B Rank staves and have barely superior range to begin with. A 10/5 Canas, for instance, has 13 magic, and I hope you've got your seatbelts on because that's a whole 6 range, 1 more than Serra or Priscilla. Erk and Lucius are barely better, Erk having 12 magic and Lucius having 17, but Priscilla still has +1 movement and wasn't eating a Guiding Ring in the first place.

Plus, if you are constantly moving forward (as you should be doing) a Torch that someone used a turn ago would be useless since it would only reveal about 4 extra squares. Torch staff reveals up to 5 squares further ahead, obviously superior.

As for the guiding ring comment, consider that even if you feel that robbing it off the boss during Pirate Ship isn't worth your trouble, there's one conveniently in a chest during Dragon's Gate. I'm not suggesting you promote all of your mages; one alone will suffice in putting the healers relatively out of business.

Someone who has actually played this game efficiently could probably answer this better than me, since I don't know if the Chapter 20 Guiding Ring can be gotten.

[Aquilae]

Legault will grab the C20 Guiding Ring on his way up, so you can get it when you recruit him.

[Geriba]

Congratulations, you figured out that Marcus is good, but there are still a lot of frail people. Even with Marcus around, enemies will generally prioritize the weaker units, like Eliwood or Lyn or even Dorcas. And especially the supposed 'competition', like Erk, Canas and Lucius. And if you are desperately trying to scrape kills you cannot afford to sit around popping Vulneraries.

Stop trying to paint the issue as binary. It's not either "healers are utterly worthless" or "healers alone enable successful kills." Prissy and Serra are definitely contributing to the team in a positive manner; what I'm questioning is their placement in the higher tiers. As you yourself have made clear, their job early on is solely to auto-vulnerary units who are low on HP when necessary.

Promoted mages are unlikely to ever reach B Rank staves and have barely superior range to begin with. A 10/5 Canas, for instance, has 13 magic, and I hope you've got your seatbelts on because that's a whole 6 range, 1 more than Serra or Priscilla. Erk and Lucius are barely better, Erk having 12 magic and Lucius having 17, but Priscilla still has +1 movement and wasn't eating a Guiding Ring in the first place.

Pent is Pent, but aside from that, it's not quite as big a deal. Unlike the healers, who will need to stay in the backlines to avoid getting impaled, the promoted mages can advance without too much caution- making them closer to the frontline units who'll need help the most. Does this mean physic suddenly has no use? Of course not. I'll grant that it helps, but remember that it's not all hunky dorry: the staff is expensive, comes no earlier than Ch.21 (which also assumes you nabbed the Member's Card successfully), and can be used by Pent, and Lucius (who starts with a C staves upon promotion) without too much trouble, and even still, it's a glorified Heal staff.

Plus, if you are constantly moving forward (as you should be doing) a Torch that someone used a turn ago would be useless since it would only reveal about 4 extra squares. Torch staff reveals up to 5 squares further ahead, obviously superior.

No qualms here. Torch staff is better, absolutely granted. But healers alone do not have a monopoly on fog clearing, and that's the point I'm getting at.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Jaffar7

[dondon151]

I should really get around to finishing my FE7 0% videos in order to get some actual evidence to YouTube.

That's an interesting way to look at healing. A 15-HP Lowen can't extend himself as far as, say, a 25-HP Lowen. Makes sense. But this would apply much more in a ranked run, where all units are encouraged to take on kills. Not so here. Thanks to Blitzarcus, most units will be lucky to scrape in a few kills per chapter, if that; the Big Man handles the rest. Healing becomes a method for lesser units to get slightly-easier experience kills early on, which is hardly an essential function for the team.

Marcus doesn't win the game all by himself. He can't be everywhere at once and he's not unkillable by any means. The player will have to rely on lesser units to shave turncounts by 1 or 2 more than if he only soloed the map with Marcus. Good examples are:

- Chapter 12: Hector and Oswin have to dispatch a huge fraction of the starting enemies on the map by themselves. A very generous 5/0 Hector with 22.6 HP, 10 def takes 6 HP damage from brigands, 3 HP damage from PKs, and 2 HP damage from archers. Hector can die pretty easily here, and Marcus is too far away to back him up.

- Chapter 13x: Pretty self-explanatory if you don't want units to die.

- Chapter 14: Marcus can dispatch a vast majority of the enemies on the map on his own, but he can't get the enemies to the east, northwest, or south. The northwest group in particular wants Serra to heal because she'll be there anyway after recruiting Erk.

- Chapter 15: Pretty self-explanatory if you don't want units to die.

- Chapter 16: You will probably need a healer in order to get the Red Gem.

- Chapter 17: Starting at this point, Marcus is beginning to get vulnerable (i.e. killable).

IIRC, in HHM, the first torch staff is obtained in Ch.19, the first barrier in Ch.20, and the first psychic in Ch.21 (secret shop); in other words, Priscilla and Serra are only promoted from refuse-kill buffers to moderately useful utility units 12 chapters in. The torch staff is good, but there are plenty of actual torches floating around, and it's highly questionable that either unit will have reached an A staff level by that point. Which leaves barrier, no doubt a highly useful staff; but does it alone justify their high placement?

Finally, the torch staff commentary was not meant to discount it entirely, but simply to put things in perspective. Take Ch.21, for example. Not every unit is going to be attacking on turn 1, and it's almost natural to employ a regular torch during that time; while a torch staff helps, a torch use helps almost as much.

You already corrected yourself on the A staves mistake, so I won't pursue that just yet. Torch is definitely more useful than normal Torch. A typical unit with Torch has a vision range of 7 tiles. A thief with Torch has a vision range of 11 tiles. A healer with Torch staff and the minimum 5 staff range has a vision range of 13 (!) tiles in a certain direction. Combine that with Priscilla's mounted 7 move, and you have the best tool available to reveal enemies to KO. Consider that your other units, instead of using a Torch, can actually attack on the same turn that Priscilla uses the Torch staff. Therefore, staff users have a "monopoly" on fog clearing.

Of course Barrier is useful. It's great in chapter 29 (obviously), but its +35 staff avo is incredibly useful as a buffer for making strategies work.

Pent's a lock for warp and rescue, and hammerne- while good- is hardly a Serra/Priscilla exclusive.

This sentence in itself is a double standard. Why is Warp and Rescue locked to Pent while Serra and Priscilla can't use Hammerne? What if you need multiple warps in a turn? You only need Warp for 3 maps in the game (32, 32x, Final) and 17 potential uses is more than enough for multiple characters to use over 3 maps.

I'm beginning to feel as though the placement of these two revolves around the assumption that a 10K fee for a Guiding Ring somehow makes early promotion of Erk/Canas/Lucius a non-possibility. All in all, Serra and Priscilla probably shave off a few turns overall, but it's not much, and their contribution to team utility is exaggerated.

They're not even assumed for the chapter 20 Guiding Ring. They don't really even need to be promoted until chapter 32 for extra staff range and movement. Serra and Priscilla shave off "a few turns," but most other characters are replacable to the extent that they shave off 0 turns.

The "A staff" comment is about physic, which is actually a B staff (mixed up with fortify). Keeping characters live with physic is certainly helpful, but 1) it doesn't come into play until Ch.21 at the earliest, and 2) is better done by people with longer ranges, aka Pent and promoted mages.

Again, there is nothing stopping you from getting multiple Physics. Other promoted mages are never going to get to B staves (except Lucius), and what if the player wanted Pent to attack instead of heal?

I'm not suggesting you promote all of your mages; one alone will suffice in putting the healers relatively out of business.

They don't even come close. No Torch, no Barrier, no Physic, no Hammerne, no Rescue, no Warp in an efficient playthrough.

Edited January 17, 2011 by dondon151

[Geriba]

I should really get around to finishing my FE7 0% videos in order to get some actual evidence to YouTube.

You should! This sounds like a really interesting project.

Marcus doesn't win the game all by himself. He can't be everywhere at once and he's not unkillable by any means. The player will have to rely on lesser units to shave turncounts by 1 or 2 more than if he only soloed the map with Marcus. Good examples are:

- Chapter 12: Hector and Oswin have to dispatch a huge fraction of the starting enemies on the map by themselves. A very generous 5/0 Hector with 22.6 HP, 10 def takes 6 HP damage from brigands, 3 HP damage from PKs, and 2 HP damage from archers. Hector can die pretty easily here, and Marcus is too far away to back him up.

Just replayed this chapter to confirm that no, Serra isn't really necessary. Hector and Oswin are going to be traveling east immediately, an area covered in woods and, by association, +1def and +20avo. And assuming Hector gets a few unlucky hits from the PK, there's relatively little to be gained from Serra that can't be gained by a vulnerary + waiting on forest tile. In fact, putting Serra too far to the left only slows the effort down, as enemies begin to target her. Even one turn here that's "Serra-exclusive" is pretty generous.

- Chapter 13x: Pretty self-explanatory if you don't want units to die.

- Chapter 14: Marcus can dispatch a vast majority of the enemies on the map on his own, but he can't get the enemies to the east, northwest, or south. The northwest group in particular wants Serra to heal because she'll be there anyway after recruiting Erk.

Agreed about 13 somewhat, although once again, Marcus takes away the majority of the challenge and Guy/Matthew easily handle the bottom-right corner. Chapter 14, however, is something I don't quite get. Once again, Guy/Matthew take care of the pirates coming from the bottom-right, while Marcus handles the middle; Serra's stuck traveling the northwest path and recruiting Erk. You talk about a "northwest group," so maybe this is a strategy I'm unfamiliar with, but in my experience you want to pretty much charge the middle with Marcus & Co.

- Chapter 15: Pretty self-explanatory if you don't want units to die.

- Chapter 16: You will probably need a healer in order to get the Red Gem.

As a survival chapter, 15 is one of the few I fully agree Serra/Prissy really help towards. Ch.16 though? Not really. Vulneraries here are perfectly acceptable.

You already corrected yourself on the A staves mistake, so I won't pursue that just yet. Torch is definitely more useful than normal Torch. A typical unit with Torch has a vision range of 7 tiles. A thief with Torch has a vision range of 11 tiles. A healer with Torch staff and the minimum 5 staff range has a vision range of 13 (!) tiles in a certain direction. Combine that with Priscilla's mounted 7 move, and you have the best tool available to reveal enemies to KO. Consider that your other units, instead of using a Torch, can actually attack on the same turn that Priscilla uses the Torch staff. Therefore, staff users have a "monopoly" on fog clearing.

I suppose I'll have to concede Torch utility, but remember: that's all of 21, 23, and 28.

Of course Barrier is useful. It's great in chapter 29 (obviously), but its +35 staff avo is incredibly useful as a buffer for making strategies work.

Absolutely. By the time barrier becomes usable, however, you'll have access to pre-promo Lucius with a C stave rank, and the Ch.29 example you mentioned is also doable by Pent. I'm definitely alright with giving Prissy/Serra some share of the credit here, but not all.

This sentence in itself is a double standard. Why is Warp and Rescue locked to Pent while Serra and Priscilla can't use Hammerne? What if you need multiple warps in a turn? You only need Warp for 3 maps in the game (32, 32x, Final) and 17 potential uses is more than enough for multiple characters to use over 3 maps.

I was referring to Pent's high magic stat making Warp more effective. Though yeah, if you're creating complex Warp chains, you'll need all the help you can get.

They're not even assumed for the chapter 20 Guiding Ring. They don't really even need to be promoted until chapter 32 for extra staff range and movement. Serra and Priscilla shave off "a few turns," but most other characters are replacable to the extent that they shave off 0 turns.

This is where I think you've got a real point. But even accepting this to be the case- that the healers are pretty much by default better than the vast majority of combat units- then why are they above Florina/Lowen? Or below Raven?

[dondon151]

Just replayed this chapter to confirm that no, Serra isn't really necessary. Hector and Oswin are going to be traveling east immediately, an area covered in woods and, by association, +1def and +20avo. And assuming Hector gets a few unlucky hits from the PK, there's relatively little to be gained from Serra that can't be gained by a vulnerary + waiting on forest tile. In fact, putting Serra too far to the left only slows the effort down, as enemies begin to target her. Even one turn here that's "Serra-exclusive" is pretty generous.

There are a variety of 4 turn strategies and likelihoods for Hector to die. He's not invincible here, and he will more likely than not come out of chapter 11 at 3/0 rather than 5/0 for roughly 2 less HP and 1 less def. Additionally, Matthew is 2HKO'd by a bunch of enemy combinations on this map and needs Serra in order to contribute anything (i.e. reduce the likelihood of failure).

Chapter 14, however, is something I don't quite get. Once again, Guy/Matthew take care of the pirates coming from the bottom-right, while Marcus handles the middle; Serra's stuck traveling the northwest path and recruiting Erk. You talk about a "northwest group," so maybe this is a strategy I'm unfamiliar with, but in my experience you want to pretty much charge the middle with Marcus & Co.

The northwest has a handful of mercs and brigand reinforcements. On a 5 turn clear, Marcus will reach that area by turn 5, but between missing and dying, there's a higher likelihood of failure if no one is there to back him up.

Absolutely. By the time barrier becomes usable, however, you'll have access to pre-promo Lucius with a C stave rank, and the Ch.29 example you mentioned is also doable by Pent. I'm definitely alright with giving Prissy/Serra some share of the credit here, but not all.

Yes, you will have Lucius, who competes with Serra, but not so much Priscilla. You will also have multiple units needing a Barrier.

This is where I think you've got a real point. But even accepting this to be the case- that the healers are pretty much by default better than the vast majority of combat units- then why are they above Florina/Lowen? Or below Raven?

Those are probably kinks that need to be worked out. I personally rank Priscilla and Florina about equally and Serra over Raven, but whatever.

Edited January 17, 2011 by dondon151

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Okay, just because I need to confront this directly:

- I fucking hate tiering healers. They suck to tier. They are absolutely indispensable, yet have no actual measurable benefit. Fuck healers. That said, remember that "absolutely indispensable" thing? Yeah, you NEED a healer. You don't need Raven. Hell, you might not even WANT Raven. He's sword-locked for 5 hateful lance-filled levels, and sucks until he manages to wrest a Hero Crest out of your greedy little hands. I've tried playing without healers. It sucks. Marcus is durable, but he's not invincible, and as soon as you have to pull him away from the action, you're losing turns.

- There are a LOT of times where you want multiple healers, and if you're like me (don't care for any of the mages in this game except Pent), you're going to need to split things up. Take Battle Before Dawn, for instance. You need to split your group into 2 squads: one to go west and save Jaffar's sorry ass, and one to go east and recruit Nino and bitchslap Ursula in the face. This is a situation where having a dedicated healer is REALLY awesome, and Priscilla has the advantage of being able to ferry around units and keep up with cavaliers (she can also use the Unlock staff, which is nice). Healers are awesome no matter how you slice it, as a bunch of half-dead fighters isn't a very versatile combat force, since it heavily limits unit exposure in the turn. More than one unit is getting damaged per turn as well, and only having one Pent can slow things down significantly. Besides, what if you just want Pent to set fire to something instead of heal? He's pretty good at that, you know.

- Raven is a weird issue. He's one of the best raw combat units in the game once he promotes, but he has to gain 5 levels to do it, and even so, he's locked to weak-ass E Axes on promotion, and he's still sitting on meh durability and 6 movement, plus later in the game you get swamped with units that can "do the same thing" but without being a pain in the dick to raise (Harken, Pent, any other awesome prepromo that shows up later in the game), and really, any Speed over 16 is basically supermegawtfbullshit overkill since nothing ever really breaks 12 speed except the endgame morphs, which are too busy raping each other with Berserk and getting Luna'd to death by Athos to actually warrant the overkill speed. Honestly, I could see the cavaliers a tier up on Raven, but I'm not sure about taking him out of top tier.

- Mages. It's basically assumed you're only promoting one, because you have neither the rings nor the EXP to use more than 1, and they're basically interchangeable. Lucius is the best due to better lategame applications with realistic staff level, but Erk has the best availability and Canas has fancy dark magic and the highest base level. We're not assuming every single mage is in play, but they're all about even. Pick one and stick with him.

- Good god, don't fucking argue with mods in this topic. Simply by posting here you agree to subject yourself to the rules and the decisions of the moderators. Don't like it? Head back to whatever sad little hole spawned your dullardry.

So what now? Raven down? If so, how much? I still want him above Florina and Lowen, simply because I don't consider rescue-dropping to be a bigger contribution than actually killing things, and unless Florina gets the Robe and Ring, she's really not likely to be participating in much combat. Speaking of which. Lowen down to below Florina, or Florina up to above Lowen? I'm just wondering.

[Florete]

As much as I like the guy, I do think it may be time Raven dropped a bit for all the reasons that have been brought up. Maybe not even down into High, but at least below Ninian/Nils.

[dondon151]

I still want him above Florina and Lowen, simply because I don't consider rescue-dropping to be a bigger contribution than actually killing things, and unless Florina gets the Robe and Ring, she's really not likely to be participating in much combat.

Well, I do... but that's me.

[Geriba]

I agree in full with SDS's analysis (except him calling me out about the mod ruffle; we've sorted that out, thank you very much). Consistency is key here, so placing Raven below the healers only makes sense. Ninils above the healers too, and I'd advocate moving Florina and Lowen up there as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

(except him calling me out about the mod ruffle; we've sorted that out, thank you very much).

Yes. We made friends.

Florina up to Lowen, though that's because I think that rescue dropping is that awesome.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Narga_Rocks