FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[GreatEclipse]

The robe is a much harder sell, even on ranked. On efficiency, with lower HP stats across the team because of less EXP and the constant need to engage huge numbers of enemy's on their own phase, I would not assume it on anyone, even if they were the best candidate. Her durability is the main reason I would bring Hawkeye every time if I had to choose, but I know better than to start an argument with DD151 on a max efficiency list (Not that I care about the placements anymore anyway).

[Hippoman]

Luna is horribly overrated, considering that in order for it to be useful enemies have to have more than 7/10 Resistance in order for it to be better than Flux/Nosferatu respectively, AND it doesn't have Nosferatu's HP-stealing advantage, which is disappointing. The only use for it is blowing shit up with Athos in endgame, and nothing else.

Anyway, Canas used to be above Erk, then dd151 made this post and all was right in the world. Erk has availability, a better weapon type, and general equivalence combat-wise after promotion. Canas is still usable, but Erk is better.

Hmm. Guess I can't argue with those numbers.

[Anouleth]

How many times does that actually happen, though? Certainly not with Raven, Kent, Sain, Florina... or rather, most units who are in the higher levels of the tiers. Speed is an important stat and higher tier units typically have enough of it on their own, without forced early promotion. Furthermore, you basically give short-term benefits in exchange for detriments later in the game. Now, while most units will have plenty of offensive power lategame regardless of whether they promote early or not, they're going to come out with even lower defensive stats than they usually have, which is unfortunate because Kent/Sain/Raven have shit for defenses to begin with.

The short term benefits usually outweigh the long term negatives. Enemies in this game grow quite slowly, and usually once a unit starts doubling enemy type X they never stop, even if they're quite high levelled.

In addition, the poor durability of Kent/Sain/Raven only gives a compelling argument to promoting them earlier. Kent/Sain can have WTC and +2HP/+2DEF now, or they can spend 4 or 5 more chapters unpromoted and have maybe +3HP/+1DEF later on.

You're right, Isadora's problem isn't her offense (which is okay at best considering she needs Silver to do what other characters do with iron or steel)

List of characters that can match 26 attack without a Silver weapon:

Marcus

Sain

List of characters that can match 26 attack and 15 AS without a Silver weapon:

None

Edited July 14, 2011 by Anouleth

[Seven Deadly Sins]

15 AS is unnecessarily high when the vast majority of units that exist during that timeframe have 6-8 AS. Furthermore...

Hawkeye has 29 Atk with a Steel Axe, and if he procs Strength at all, has 26 at range.

Harken has 30 with a Hand Axe (hello 2 range) at base, and has 18 AS.

Pent has 27 Atk with Elfire, and is also ranged and has the Def-Res gap to contend with.

Heath only needs 6 levels to hit it with Steel, and also has flight and actual defensive stats.

Hector has 26 Attack with a Steel Axe at level 14/15 on average.

If Raven promotes at level 12 and gains a couple levels, he's got 26 Atk and 17 AS with a Steel Axe at 12/5, plus WTA on a the mass of Wyverns and the option of a 22 Atk 18 AS ranged option (Isadora gets 19 Atk 10 AS and no WTA).

God forbid, if we manage to get Geitz, he's got 26 Atk, 14 AS, and WTA against the masses of Lance users to his name AT TWO RANGE.

If Kent gets the Energy Ring, he only needs 7 Strength procs (including promotion) to hit 26 Attack with a Steel Lance and only lose 3 AS.

Etc, so on, so forth. Plus, let's not forget ANY of these characters can whip out Silver and instantly outdo Isadora by a mile.

When you make statements like that, at least have the common sense to do some math first. 26 Attack isn't super special in the game, and while having a mount is cute, it doesn't make up for poor defensive stats. Plus again, Silver Swords aren't buyable until Chapter 29, and the only treasure one is in Chapter 17, which is stolen by the Thief that also steals the Knight Crest, rendering it undroppable. So yeah, Isadora has 20 uses of a weapon that enables her to perform on par with what other characters are doing with weapons that are actually plentiful.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Anouleth]

The point is that at the point Isadora joins, 26 attack is perfectly acceptable. Some of those characters do not join for a few chapters, and while I can't say I'm that familiar with efficiency, 12/5 Raven at that point in the game also seems high. Although I did forget Hector.

Of course, all of these characters are above Isadora anyway, most of them by a tier or more. I suppose I don't really have a problem with Hawkeye being over Isadora, though, which was the original point. Hawkeye's better combat is a great advantage than Isadora's mount. But I don't think I agree with Hawkeye at the bottom of High Tier. I don't think he's on par with Pent, and I don't think there's a significant enough gap between him and Harken.

[Lord Raven]

The fact that Raven's 12/5 is superfluous anyway, if we're considering 15 spd to be overkill then having a 12/2 or 12/3 Raven means you have 16 AS.

[-Cynthia-]

15 AS is unnecessarily high when the vast majority of units that exist during that timeframe have 6-8 AS. Furthermore...

There are important enemies Isadora doubles that other people do not, Eubans for example has 10 AS. Since killing him ends the chapter sooner, Isadora's AS is a boon here.

Hawkeye has 29 Atk with a Steel Axe, and if he procs Strength at all, has 26 at range.

Interesting how Hawkeye leveling up is being considered, but there is no mention of Isadora leveling up at all.

If Raven promotes at level 12 and gains a couple levels, he's got 26 Atk and 17 AS with a Steel Axe at 12/5, plus WTA on a the mass of Wyverns and the option of a 22 Atk 18 AS ranged option (Isadora gets 19 Atk 10 AS and no WTA).

Since when can't Isadora use Hand Axes? With the Body Ring Isadora has 20 Atk and 12 AS with the Hand Axe with WTA. It's not as good as Raven sure, but why does Isadora need better combat than Raven/Harken/Pent etc. to be better than Hawkeye? As you said, most enemies have only 6-8 AS, Isadora can afford being weighed down in some circumstances.

Etc, so on, so forth. Plus, let's not forget ANY of these characters can whip out Silver and instantly outdo Isadora by a mile.

Pent can use Silver? Geitz has an A rank? Kent has an A rank? Heath has an A rank? Quite obviously, not all of these characters can wield Silver Weapons when Isadora joins, so claiming ANY of them can whip out Silver is simply erroneous.

Your original claim was "Isadora needs Silver to do what other characters do with iron or steel". Your definition of other characters seems to include people like Harken, who join several chapters after Isadora does anyway. What are defining as "other characters" here? Isadora pretty clearly has better offense than say, Lowen, a 12/1 Lowen has 11 Str and 11 AS along with worse weapon ranks, which is clearly worse than Isadora offensively.

[GreatEclipse]

People seem to be forgetting that you get the Brave Axe the same chapter Isadora joins, making her AS lead over Hawkeye at range 1 useless (At range 2 they're comparable).

[-Cynthia-]

People seem to be forgetting that you get the Brave Axe the same chapter Isadora joins, making her AS lead over Hawkeye at range 1 useless (At range 2 they're comparable).

Hawkeye is not our only capable Brave Axe user. I'd much rather give it to someone like Marcus who has more mobility.

[GreatEclipse]

The 5 AS loss from holding it makes him slower than Hawkeye at base. Anything Marcus was not doubling before, is probably doubling him now.

[Janissary]

The 5 AS loss from holding it makes him slower than Hawkeye at base. Anything Marcus was not doubling before, is probably doubling him now.

So that's... Mercs and Myrms that won't be getting Brave Axe'd anyway? And nomads, wow.

[-Cynthia-]

The Brave Axe can also be used for not taking counters or breaking down walls more quickly it doesn't have to be used to get x4.

[Hippoman]

God forbid, if we manage to get Geitz, he's got 26 Atk, 14 AS, and WTA against the masses of Lance users to his name AT TWO RANGE.

I must have missed out on why Geitz is so difficult to get.

If you're using Dart, it's simple.

If not, just send a tanky unit (Oswin, Marcus, etc.) to lure Geitz, then move in Dart.

[GreatEclipse]

So that's... Mercs and Myrms that won't be getting Brave Axe'd anyway? And nomads, wow.

And their promoted counterparts that are much more threatening, plus Valkyrie, though they usually double him anyway. The fact that it doesn't do him any good is precisely the reason it's not worth giving to him.

The Brave Axe can also be used for not taking counters or breaking down walls more quickly it doesn't have to be used to get x4.

He already has Javelins and Hand Axes for not taking counters, and the Silver Axe will break any wall even at base (Though they vanish from the game past 23x anyway).

Edited July 15, 2011 by GreatEclipse

[-Cynthia-]

I must have missed out on why Geitz is so difficult to get.

If you're using Dart, it's simple.

If not, just send a tanky unit (Oswin, Marcus, etc.) to lure Geitz, then move in Dart.

It's the level requirement of the Lords to get to Linus FFO, not recruiting Geitz himself.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

There are important enemies Isadora doubles that other people do not, Eubans for example has 10 AS. Since killing him ends the chapter sooner, Isadora's AS is a boon here.

The same Eubans that does 20 damage to her, KOing her with ANY prior damage while you don't have any Physic users that can keep her alive? The same Eubans that she barely 2RKOs IF she hits 50s 4 times in a row, due to Eubans sitting on a forest and having WTA on her strongest weapon? Iron Axe is a 3RKO, and still at 70 Hit each time. That's not even taking into account the fact that to get to Eubans you have to deal with a non-negligible amount of enemies AND get potshotted by a Ballista and a Nomad. Nice try.

Interesting how Hawkeye leveling up is being considered, but there is no mention of Isadora leveling up at all.

Considering all I was doing was comparing attacking stats, I didn't find it necessary. That said, it's really pointless. Isadora's only halfway decent growth is in the one stat she doesn't need any more of, and the things she actually needs (HP, Str, Def) are rather underwhelming.

Since when can't Isadora use Hand Axes? With the Body Ring Isadora has 20 Atk and 12 AS with the Hand Axe with WTA. It's not as good as Raven sure, but why does Isadora need better combat than Raven/Harken/Pent etc. to be better than Hawkeye? As you said, most enemies have only 6-8 AS, Isadora can afford being weighed down in some circumstances.

It's not that it "isn't as good as Raven", it's that it's not as good as anyone that would even be in the same universe as her in the tier list. Plus it's not like she has absolute claim to the Body Ring, since there are units that wouldn't mind the extra bump, like Heath (who goes down to -1 AS with Steel Lance) or Florina/Fiora, who aren't too hot in the CON department. Hell, there's characters like Lyn (who isn't going to be too far from Isadora on the tier list any more anyway) and Eliwood that might want to get their hands on it. The only reason that Isadora has claim to the Body Ring is because she's terrible at 2 range and over-reliant on Silver at 1 range without it.

Pent can use Silver? Geitz has an A rank? Kent has an A rank? Heath has an A rank? Quite obviously, not all of these characters can wield Silver Weapons when Isadora joins, so claiming ANY of them can whip out Silver is simply erroneous.

Heath gets Auto-A Lances on promotion (he starts with B, remember?), and Kent's been around since before Isadora was even a character, swinging lances around. By the time it's relevant, yes, he'll be hitting A. The Pent bit is just a bit of cute strawmanning on your part. Besides, this is completely irrelevant considering that these are characters that kick Isadora's ass at *everything*. Heath gets 6 levels and demolishes anything that Isadora could hope to accomplish, and as an unpromoted character with near-free access to a whip, yeah, he's going to do that. There's a 0% chance of Isadora ever going above Heath, and since Heath isn't moving, neither is she.

Your original claim was "Isadora needs Silver to do what other characters do with iron or steel". Your definition of other characters seems to include people like Harken, who join several chapters after Isadora does anyway. What are defining as "other characters" here? Isadora pretty clearly has better offense than say, Lowen, a 12/1 Lowen has 11 Str and 11 AS along with worse weapon ranks, which is clearly worse than Isadora offensively.

Lowen's been around for 12 chapters, 6 of which he's your only non-Marcus Cavalier, and he's only 12/1? Bad math is bad. Plus he's got, wait for it... DURABILITY. You know, that thing that Isadora gets harped on for not having, and is indeed extremely shitty at? That thing that lets Lowen run way out in front of your army without whining like a bitch while the rest of your team cleans up the things that he leaves within sniffing distance of death?

Also, here's what I define as "other characters". Characters higher up on her in the tier list, which is basically all of the characters I mentioned. They blow her out of the water in every single relevant stat except Speed, where their stats are manageable. The only thing she has is 2 MOV, which doesn't do much good when you can't abuse it by charging ahead of the pack like Marcus, Sain, and Kent can.

I'm done with this Isadora vs. Hawkeye nonsense.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[dondon151]

People seem to be forgetting that you get the Brave Axe the same chapter Isadora joins, making her AS lead over Hawkeye at range 1 useless (At range 2 they're comparable).

Not quite; you can't leave the Brave Axe equipped on enemy phases and you certainly can't leverage the weapon triangle.

The 5 AS loss from holding it makes him slower than Hawkeye at base. Anything Marcus was not doubling before, is probably doubling him now.

That's not the point. The Brave Axe isn't just about offense; if we were only concerned about that, we'd be missing out on the best applications of the Brave Axe. Marcus can use the Brave Axe to double enemies that he couldn't previously, but also to 2HKO enemies without taking a counter (e.g. chapter 29 druids).

And their promoted counterparts that are much more threatening, plus Valkyrie, though they usually double him anyway. The fact that it doesn't do him any good is precisely the reason it's not worth giving to him.

Chapter 23x magic users have 10-11 AS while silenced, which is not doubled by most Marcus without Brave Axe.

The only thing she has is 2 MOV, which doesn't do much good when you can't abuse it by charging ahead of the pack like Marcus, Sain, and Kent can.

If any other paladin in any other FE game is any indication, you know that's complete bullshit.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

If any other paladin in any other FE game is any indication, you know that's complete bullshit.

If Conomore, FE9 Geoffery, a majority of FE10's paladins, FE11 Midia and Arran are any indication, being a paladin doesn't automatically make you good.

[Anouleth]

If Conomore, FE9 Geoffery, a majority of FE10's paladins, FE11 Midia and Arran are any indication, being a paladin doesn't automatically make you good.

Conomore has a difficult recruitment (it requires you to go on the horrible B Route so that Miranda can be recruited), Geoffrey joins very late and only has 4 chapters in which to distinguish himself. Midia and Arran's combat skills are terrible and they exist in a game where movement is rendered obsolete by Warp staves (quite besides the point that any Class Set A character can become a Paladin anyway). Many FE10 Paladins have some combination of poor availability, or terrible combat, and FE10 is quite heavy on terrain that hampers them.

None of this really applies to Isadora. Her combat is nothing to write home about, but it's acceptable enough. And dondon's point was not that paladins are automatically good, but rather than +2 move is a significant advantage. I don't think that is a controversial statement to make.

[-Cynthia-]

The same Eubans that does 20 damage to her, KOing her with ANY prior damage while you don't have any Physic users that can keep her alive? The same Eubans that she barely 2RKOs IF she hits 50s 4 times in a row, due to Eubans sitting on a forest and having WTA on her strongest weapon? Iron Axe is a 3RKO, and still at 70 Hit each time. That's not even taking into account the fact that to get to Eubans you have to deal with a non-negligible amount of enemies AND get potshotted by a Ballista and a Nomad. Nice try.

The implication certainly wasn't "Isadora ORKOs Eubans." Look at dondon's 0% growth run for an example of how she helps us there. Yes, she manages to get to Eubans, despite your claims of her being entirely unable to charge ahead with the rest of the paladins.

Heath gets Auto-A Lances on promotion (he starts with B, remember?)

Isn't promoted when Isadora shows up.

and Kent's been around since before Isadora was even a character, swinging lances around.

He starts with D Lances, I doubt he's climbing up 3 weapon ranks in Lyn Mode and a few HHM chapters.

By the time it's relevant, yes, he'll be hitting A. The Pent bit is just a bit of cute strawmanning on your part. Besides, this is completely irrelevant considering that these are characters that kick Isadora's ass at *everything*.

Not at Mov (everyone but a promoted Kent/Heath), or availability (Pent/Harken/Geitz etc.) See below comparison with Kent for an end to this "destroys Isadora at everything" charade.

Heath gets 6 levels and demolishes anything that Isadora could hope to accomplish, and as an unpromoted character with near-free access to a whip, yeah, he's going to do that.

This could be a problem with Heath being a bit underrated rather than anything else.

There's a 0% chance of Isadora ever going above Heath, and since Heath isn't moving, neither is she.

Honey, if you want to make your own FE7 tier list in FFtF, go for it. But this is in the FE7 forum, which means you actually do have to ackonowledge the logic of some other members of the FE community. I would never claim "X is never going above Y" in any tier list I was running. You have to look at the evidence and analyze it.

Lowen's been around for 12 chapters, 6 of which he's your only non-Marcus Cavalier, and he's only 12/1? Bad math is bad.

Have you ever done an efficiency run before? Considering Lowen starts and level 2 and has somewhat unimpressive offense, his leveling rate is not that high. If you're having any 20/1 characters by the time Isadora joins, you're probably not playing very efficiently.

Plus he's got, wait for it... DURABILITY. You know, that thing that Isadora gets harped on for not having, and is indeed extremely shitty at? That thing that lets Lowen run way out in front of your army without whining like a bitch while the rest of your team cleans up the things that he leaves within sniffing distance of death?

Also, here's what I define as "other characters". Characters higher up on her in the tier list, which is basically all of the characters I mentioned. They blow her out of the water in every single relevant stat except Speed, where their stats are manageable. The only thing she has is 2 MOV, which doesn't do much good when you can't abuse it by charging ahead of the pack like Marcus, Sain, and Kent can.

Are you illiterate or blind? Did you see where Lowen has less Str, Atk and weapon ranks than Isadora? Even a 15/1 Lowen has less Str than Isadora, and he's higher up than she is.

Let's compare a 14/1 Kent to Isadora.

14/1 Kent

33.05 HP 12.2 Str 13.85 Spd 10.25 Def 5.25 Res

So 5 Hp, 2 Def vs. 2 Spd, 1 Str, 1 Res? Certainly not 'blowing her out of the water' at everything. Yes Kent is a bit more durable, but it's not that big of a difference.

I'm done with this Isadora vs. Hawkeye nonsense.

Can I petition that someone at least marginally competent run this tier list instead please?

[Anouleth]

Maybe the problem is having the Erk/Lucius/Canas trio above Isadora. What exactly is the logic behind Erk/Canas over Isadora anyway?

[GreatEclipse]

@DD151

You're right about some of the more circumstantial uses of Brave weapons, but Hawkeye is one of your best units against Druids even without it, with his massive HP/RES making him one of the few units who can safely take a counter or bait them on enemy phase, and high critical for killing them before they can get one off. You also get a Brave Sword in 27 and Brave Lance in 28 that Marcus would prefer anyway, and while you could complain that it takes one away from someone else, in actual practice you will simply send in whoever you gave one too whenever they're required. Not being able to play the weapon triangle is not much of a loss either. He's already excellent against Hero's and Swordmaster's with the Swordreaver.

@Kent vs. Isadora

5 HP and 2 DEF is a lot when you account for the number of times a unit can get attacked on one turn in this game, and he might as well win SPD by 3 given how ofter they will be using a Javelin or Hand Axe. He can also DA Steel Lance Wyverns with a Steel Axe.

Edited July 15, 2011 by GreatEclipse

[dondon151]

If Conomore, FE9 Geoffery, a majority of FE10's paladins, FE11 Midia and Arran are any indication, being a paladin doesn't automatically make you good.

1. Conomore's "problem" is that he forces a poor route and that he's worse than Amalda, not because he's actually bad. He has double A ranks and has 7 dismounted move, which is better than most other units without movement growths.

2. Geoffrey joins late in FE9 and is otherwise not that bad.

3. FE10 paladins have horrid availability for the most part, but a mediocre example like Oscar is still pretty good.

4. FE DS Midia and Arran are actually pretty good because of draco access and innate Ridersbane access.

You're right about some of the more circumstantial uses of Brave weapons, but Hawkeye is one of your best units against Druids even without it, with his massive HP/RES making him one of the few units who can safely take a counter or bait them on enemy phase, and high critical for killing them before they can get one off.

+15 crit is not a guaranteed crit by any means. Hawkeye's high res also doesn't protect himself against Luna at all, nor does it prevent him from getting crit.

You also get a Brave Sword in 27 and Brave Lance in 28 that Marcus would prefer anyway, and while you could complain that it takes one away from someone else, in actual practice you will simply send in whoever you gave one too whenever they're required.

It is definitely a somewhat legitimate complaint, since many other units (mounted units especially) can use the Brave Sword and Brave Lance, but only Marcus can use the Brave Axe.

[grandjackal]

I'm pretty much gonna stay out of the FE7 tiers at this point, but I figured I'd respond.

1. Conomore's "problem" is that he forces a poor route and that he's worse than Amalda, not because he's actually bad. He has double A ranks and has 7 dismounted move, which is better than most other units without movement growths.

Maybe it's just been a while, but I'm pretty sure having 13 Str isn't anything really special. The move is nice, but I'm pretty sure I could still ask for better.

2. Geoffrey joins late in FE9 and is otherwise not that bad.

He's not that bad, but I could still ask for better. He's ok, but I wouldn't consider him good.

3. FE10 paladins have horrid availability for the most part, but a mediocre example like Oscar is still pretty good.

The point I simply wanted to make was paladin =/= good. A unit can have horrid availability and still be good or great (Niime, Amalda, Galzus, Sety, Harken, Ephraim Route Saleh, etc). In FE10, being a paladin does not automatically save you from that, showing you can in fact be a paladin and still be bad. Sure, Titania kicks ass and Oscar's kinda cool, but that's 2/7.

4. FE DS Midia and Arran are actually pretty good because of draco access and innate Ridersbane access.

In seriousness, I forgot you couldbe a lancebot and still be good in that game with how many horse units are in it. But still, lancebot is just kind of a uh..Well, lame argument. Est can use Ridersbane, noway in hell would that argument would actually save her.

Maybe it's just FE7 where enemies are lame enough that even Isadora can qualify as good combat and I'm simply not quite knowledgeable in FE7 enough to make a clear judgement, but it just irks me when someone just comes in and says "High tier because horse". I'd just like to see some numbers other than"Silver Sword works", cause 20 uses of a weapon we don't have a lot of stock of will vanish quickly.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'll make another post soon, but -Cynthia-, I'd just like to say that I don't get where you get off being that rude to me. Comments like "have you ever done an efficiency run before", "Are you illiterate or blind", and "Can I petition that someone at least marginally competent run this tier list instead please?" are completely out of line, and I'm going to be ignoring any further blatantly disrespectful posts on the matter, especially from you.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins